UK, Italy, France quality decline, now poorer than all 50 states

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The U.S. invents.
China builds.
Europe regulates.

That may have been true in the past, but much more scientific research has moved to Asia these days--lower cost of highly qualified human capital and governments that are supporting research with grant funding (unlike the USA which opted to cut funding for NSF and NIH in favor of an Iran war that costs billions per week.)

+1 I hope these inane generalizations aren't coming from people who work in government.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP--you're pretty quick to adopt sweeping conclusions without thinking too much. Nobel Prize winner Paul Krugman had a long article about why this conclusion about Europe isn't accurate from his view.

#PaulKrugman
But how accurate is this perception of European underperformance? While there are valid reasons to be concerned about Europe’s future, the trash talk reflects ignorance of the real issues. And even economically sophisticated, Draghi-type discussions are, I would argue, misleading. Europe is simply not poor the way Mississippi is poor. Moreover, by many measures — arguably the most important measures — Europe is, in fact, keeping up with the United States.

Does Europe have a lower standard of living than the U.S?

When comparing the economic performance of various countries, economists often begin with measures of gross domestic product (GDP) per capita at purchasing power parity. GDP is the total value of goods and services produced in a country, and GDP per capita is a relevant measure of the country’s overall standard of living. “Purchasing power parity” (PPP) corrects for differences in national price levels, which is especially important because fluctuations in exchange rates between currencies, such as the relative values of the dollar and the euro, can cause temporary fluctuations in measured GDP that have nothing to do with underlying economic performance.

Here is PPP GDP per capita in the three big European Union economies as a percentage of the United States over the past 25 years:


Chart 1

European economies do produce less per person than the U.S. does. Indeed, as many observers have pointed out, France and Italy have GDP per capita comparable to poor U.S. states like Alabama:


Chart 2

But let’s step back for a moment and ask: how reasonable is it to compare the economic performance of France, and Europe in general, with the poorest states in America?

Let’s start with impressions: France definitely doesn’t look or feel as poor as Alabama or Mississippi. Granted, subjective impressions are no substitute for hard data. But the “walking around test” isn’t worthless, either. If the look and feel of an economy don’t match up with the story told by standard numbers, that’s at least a gut check, a reason to look for the sources of the dissonance.

More substantively, nonmonetary comparisons between Europe and the United States are unlike the usual comparisons when one stacks poor nations against a richer country. Consider the following items:

· Globally, rich nations normally have higher life expectancy than poor nations. But life expectancy in France is 4.7 years higher than in the United States — and 9 years higher than in Alabama

· The overall US literacy rate is well below rates in other wealthy nations, and far below levels in Europe

· While the US and China dominate most information technology industries, with Europe a distant third — more on that later — access to and use of IT are basically comparable in the US and Europe

Understand that I’m not saying that the GDP numbers are wrong. What I am saying, however, is that the story “Europe is poor” is misleading.

A clearly important issue that is not captured by GDP per capita comparisons is income inequality, which is much higher in the US than in Europe. It is arithmetically inescapable that the high share of US income going to the top 1 percent and the top 10 percent renders most Americans worse off than the overall high level of GDP per capita would indicate.

However, quantifying this effect is, to be frank, a statistical can of worms, especially because some important goods and services — notably health care — are mainly government-provided in Europe while a significant share is privately-provided in the United States. My colleagues at the Stone Center on Socio-Economic Inequality, who are experts on the topic of income inequality, are not convinced by some widely cited analyses of this issue. So for now, I will simply assert that the role of income inequality in underestimating the performance of Europe versus the US is an important component, but one to which I can’t put exact numbers.

Finally, if we look at the sources of low GDP per capita, they are very different in Europe than in poor U.S. states.

More than 30 years ago I wrote that “productivity isn’t everything, but in the long run it is almost everything.” Nations become rich by increasing labor productivity — real GDP per hour worked. So you might assume that relatively low GDP per capita in Europe compared with the US is mainly a result of Europeans’ relatively low productivity.

But that’s a mistaken inference. The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development has estimated productivity for a number of countries, with estimates that are similar to those from other sources. Here’s how those numbers for Germany and France, plus my own calculation for Alabama, compare with GDP per capita:


Chart 3

At 85.7%, per capita GDP in Germany is nearly 14 percent lower than the US average, yet German productivity, at 96.7%, almost matches US productivity. Thus the productivity gap explains only a little more than a fifth of the GDP gapin the case of Germany. French per capita GDP is 27 percent lower than in the US, but French productivity is only slightly lower than German productivity. Therefore, the productivity gap explains less than a third of the GDP gap in the case of France.

What do these numbers mean? They mean that head-to-head comparisons of GDP per capita are misleading without also understanding comparisons of labor productivity. While Europe has lower GDP per capita than the U.S., its labor productivity is relatively close to that of the U.S. What explains this divergence?

The answer is that America is the “no-vacation nation.” Historically, Americans were more like Europeans, taking part of the gains from productivity growth in the form of shorter work hours. But that process stopped after around 1970. Europeans, however, do take vacations, and as a result work fewer hours per year. This means lower GDP, but with the offsetting benefit of more personal time.

In short, lower European GDP per capita can be viewed largely not as a problem but as a choice — a choice to spend less time working but more time on other things. Which side of the Atlantic is making the right choice? I’ll leave that up to readers.

By contrast, poor U.S. states are poor not because of lifestyle choices but because they have low productivity. The productivity gap between Alabamians and other Americans explains more than three-quarters of Alabama’s low GDP per capita compared with the U.S. national average.

As I said, then, while GDP comparisons aren’t wrong, they can be misleading: Europe isn’t poor the same way that Alabama or Mississippi are poor. On the whole we should think of Europeans as being as competent at producing goods and services as Americans, but with lower monetary income because they’ve made different choices about how to use their time. Thus it’s misleading to conclude that Europeans have a clearly lower standard of living than Americans when they have essentially just made different choices.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are all far richer than we are, they have free education childcare elder care and healthcare.
Whoever thinks we are better off is insane.

How are they far richer than we all are? Over and over on this thread, people have posted median and average salaries that show you're incorrect.

Education is free in USA. We also have medicaid if you are poor.

FTFY. Some education is free in the USA. Private universities charge $90k a year for college in the USA compared to having tertiary education at a minimal cost in most of Europe. And you should try talking to a parent of a child under the age of 5 paying 30k a year for daycare so they can work, which would be free through state sponsored providers in most of Europe.

OK you're talking about specialty education. K-12 are free in the US. Daycare is 90% babysitting and not education. (And yes, I pay 25k a year for my kids each in daycare.)

Tertiary education is a minimum cost in the US as well. Have you looked at community college costs?! They're so reasonable. For 2025-2026, tuition at Northern Virginia Community College (NOVA) is approximately $190 per credit hour for in-state residents. $190 a credit hour in a high cost of living area is a minimum cost in my mind.

What's your source that daycare is 90% babysitting and not education? Are you sending your kids to a daycare where you learning is mandated not to occur?

So all of Europe has free daycare? From 12 weeks on? And does it go until 6pm? (This is a rhetorical question. I know the answer)

Many states do have free Pre-K. Some even have free Pre-K 3 and Pre-K 4.

NP-The French school week is super annoying for working parents, with Wednesdays off and also so many breaks. My sil (not wealthy at all) had a lady who took care of my nephew that day and picked him up at school (which also ends before work ends). It's not like everything is perfect. And yes, the US does have free Pre-K. It was great for both my kids. And before that there was a very low cost little 2s program offered by my city every am between 8 and 12. We definitely need more of these programs so everyone can benefit.

The American school week and calendar year are super convenient and never annoying… said no working parent ever…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are all far richer than we are, they have free education childcare elder care and healthcare.
Whoever thinks we are better off is insane.

How are they far richer than we all are? Over and over on this thread, people have posted median and average salaries that show you're incorrect.

Education is free in USA. We also have medicaid if you are poor.

FTFY. Some education is free in the USA. Private universities charge $90k a year for college in the USA compared to having tertiary education at a minimal cost in most of Europe. And you should try talking to a parent of a child under the age of 5 paying 30k a year for daycare so they can work, which would be free through state sponsored providers in most of Europe.

OK you're talking about specialty education. K-12 are free in the US. Daycare is 90% babysitting and not education. (And yes, I pay 25k a year for my kids each in daycare.)

Tertiary education is a minimum cost in the US as well. Have you looked at community college costs?! They're so reasonable. For 2025-2026, tuition at Northern Virginia Community College (NOVA) is approximately $190 per credit hour for in-state residents. $190 a credit hour in a high cost of living area is a minimum cost in my mind.

What's your source that daycare is 90% babysitting and not education? Are you sending your kids to a daycare where you learning is mandated not to occur?

So all of Europe has free daycare? From 12 weeks on? And does it go until 6pm? (This is a rhetorical question. I know the answer)

Many states do have free Pre-K. Some even have free Pre-K 3 and Pre-K 4.

NP-The French school week is super annoying for working parents, with Wednesdays off and also so many breaks. My sil (not wealthy at all) had a lady who took care of my nephew that day and picked him up at school (which also ends before work ends). It's not like everything is perfect. And yes, the US does have free Pre-K. It was great for both my kids. And before that there was a very low cost little 2s program offered by my city every am between 8 and 12. We definitely need more of these programs so everyone can benefit.

The American school week and calendar year are super convenient and never annoying… said no working parent ever…

I think the point is that Europe isn’t as great as it’s actually presented online.

My friend in the Netherlands just this year had aftercare provided by her child’s school. She’s the mom and expected to simply pick up her kid at 2 PM or whatever time. My elementary school in 1995 had aftercare for working parents!

I think people would shocked to be learn about how in many ways it’s not always family friendly in Europe. My opinion is that women are pushed into a second tier worker status and expected to stay home a long time to watch children and then work limited hours.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are all far richer than we are, they have free education childcare elder care and healthcare.
Whoever thinks we are better off is insane.

How are they far richer than we all are? Over and over on this thread, people have posted median and average salaries that show you're incorrect.

Education is free in USA. We also have medicaid if you are poor.

FTFY. Some education is free in the USA. Private universities charge $90k a year for college in the USA compared to having tertiary education at a minimal cost in most of Europe. And you should try talking to a parent of a child under the age of 5 paying 30k a year for daycare so they can work, which would be free through state sponsored providers in most of Europe.

OK you're talking about specialty education. K-12 are free in the US. Daycare is 90% babysitting and not education. (And yes, I pay 25k a year for my kids each in daycare.)

Tertiary education is a minimum cost in the US as well. Have you looked at community college costs?! They're so reasonable. For 2025-2026, tuition at Northern Virginia Community College (NOVA) is approximately $190 per credit hour for in-state residents. $190 a credit hour in a high cost of living area is a minimum cost in my mind.

What's your source that daycare is 90% babysitting and not education? Are you sending your kids to a daycare where you learning is mandated not to occur?

So all of Europe has free daycare? From 12 weeks on? And does it go until 6pm? (This is a rhetorical question. I know the answer)

Many states do have free Pre-K. Some even have free Pre-K 3 and Pre-K 4.

NP-The French school week is super annoying for working parents, with Wednesdays off and also so many breaks. My sil (not wealthy at all) had a lady who took care of my nephew that day and picked him up at school (which also ends before work ends). It's not like everything is perfect. And yes, the US does have free Pre-K. It was great for both my kids. And before that there was a very low cost little 2s program offered by my city every am between 8 and 12. We definitely need more of these programs so everyone can benefit.

The American school week and calendar year are super convenient and never annoying… said no working parent ever…

I think the point is that Europe isn’t as great as it’s actually presented online.

My friend in the Netherlands just this year had aftercare provided by her child’s school. She’s the mom and expected to simply pick up her kid at 2 PM or whatever time. My elementary school in 1995 had aftercare for working parents!

I think people would shocked to be learn about how in many ways it’s not always family friendly in Europe. My opinion is that women are pushed into a second tier worker status and expected to stay home a long time to watch children and then work limited hours.

There is hard data about how much rich European countries contribute for childcare. It's orders of magnitude higher than in the US.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/06/upshot/child-care-biden.html
How Other Nations Pay for Child Care. The U.S. Is an Outlier.
Rich countries contribute an average of $14,000 per year for a toddler’s care, compared with $500 in the U.S.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are all far richer than we are, they have free education childcare elder care and healthcare.
Whoever thinks we are better off is insane.

How are they far richer than we all are? Over and over on this thread, people have posted median and average salaries that show you're incorrect.

Education is free in USA. We also have medicaid if you are poor.

FTFY. Some education is free in the USA. Private universities charge $90k a year for college in the USA compared to having tertiary education at a minimal cost in most of Europe. And you should try talking to a parent of a child under the age of 5 paying 30k a year for daycare so they can work, which would be free through state sponsored providers in most of Europe.

But most European countries don’t provide care for young babies. They have decided to pay women low wages to stay home with babies. Everyone thinks it’s great but I wouldn’t have wanted to stay home for $350 a week in London. Then you have another kid and are expected to stay home another year, and it’s why women can’t go far in that job market.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are all far richer than we are, they have free education childcare elder care and healthcare.
Whoever thinks we are better off is insane.

How are they far richer than we all are? Over and over on this thread, people have posted median and average salaries that show you're incorrect.

Education is free in USA. We also have medicaid if you are poor.

FTFY. Some education is free in the USA. Private universities charge $90k a year for college in the USA compared to having tertiary education at a minimal cost in most of Europe. And you should try talking to a parent of a child under the age of 5 paying 30k a year for daycare so they can work, which would be free through state sponsored providers in most of Europe.

OK you're talking about specialty education. K-12 are free in the US. Daycare is 90% babysitting and not education. (And yes, I pay 25k a year for my kids each in daycare.)

Tertiary education is a minimum cost in the US as well. Have you looked at community college costs?! They're so reasonable. For 2025-2026, tuition at Northern Virginia Community College (NOVA) is approximately $190 per credit hour for in-state residents. $190 a credit hour in a high cost of living area is a minimum cost in my mind.

What's your source that daycare is 90% babysitting and not education? Are you sending your kids to a daycare where you learning is mandated not to occur?

So all of Europe has free daycare? From 12 weeks on? And does it go until 6pm? (This is a rhetorical question. I know the answer)

Many states do have free Pre-K. Some even have free Pre-K 3 and Pre-K 4.

NP-The French school week is super annoying for working parents, with Wednesdays off and also so many breaks. My sil (not wealthy at all) had a lady who took care of my nephew that day and picked him up at school (which also ends before work ends). It's not like everything is perfect. And yes, the US does have free Pre-K. It was great for both my kids. And before that there was a very low cost little 2s program offered by my city every am between 8 and 12. We definitely need more of these programs so everyone can benefit.

The American school week and calendar year are super convenient and never annoying… said no working parent ever…

I think the point is that Europe isn’t as great as it’s actually presented online.

My friend in the Netherlands just this year had aftercare provided by her child’s school. She’s the mom and expected to simply pick up her kid at 2 PM or whatever time. My elementary school in 1995 had aftercare for working parents!

I think people would shocked to be learn about how in many ways it’s not always family friendly in Europe. My opinion is that women are pushed into a second tier worker status and expected to stay home a long time to watch children and then work limited hours.

There is hard data about how much rich European countries contribute for childcare. It's orders of magnitude higher than in the US.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/06/upshot/child-care-biden.html
How Other Nations Pay for Child Care. The U.S. Is an Outlier.
Rich countries contribute an average of $14,000 per year for a toddler’s care, compared with $500 in the U.S.

well is it even comparible? since its subsidized does the 14k get you that much or is it over priced because of the govt subisidy?

I'd rather be in america without uniersal health care if that meant i can chose different plans and make it ahead, i have never had issues w/ my health issurance even when my dad had cancer it was fine but compariing how much we paid a month to what the quality the euopren govt givces i 'll take my private insurance much better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are all far richer than we are, they have free education childcare elder care and healthcare.
Whoever thinks we are better off is insane.

How are they far richer than we all are? Over and over on this thread, people have posted median and average salaries that show you're incorrect.

Education is free in USA. We also have medicaid if you are poor.

FTFY. Some education is free in the USA. Private universities charge $90k a year for college in the USA compared to having tertiary education at a minimal cost in most of Europe. And you should try talking to a parent of a child under the age of 5 paying 30k a year for daycare so they can work, which would be free through state sponsored providers in most of Europe.

But most European countries don’t provide care for young babies. They have decided to pay women low wages to stay home with babies. Everyone thinks it’s great but I wouldn’t have wanted to stay home for $350 a week in London. Then you have another kid and are expected to stay home another year, and it’s why women can’t go far in that job market.

if european childcare is so great why do they have year long parental leave? lol

[Anonymous]

Basically US only remaining first world country, UK, Western Europe, Australia and Canada 2nd world countries, everything else the bloody third world.

[Anonymous]

As someone who spent most of career working for European comanies in the USA here are main reasons.
1) we get paid more
2) we pay less tax
3) We own far more US Stock which has been on a tear the last 18 years
4) companies grant RSUs unlike Europe
5) no Vat tax on purchases.
6) more likely to own real estate which also been way up.

My boss in Europe made less then me in the USA who reported to him. Paid more taxes, lived in a rental and owned hardly any stocks.

Now an unemployed person, person who company gives no medical, parents with kids in college and young moms looking for cheap child care better in Europe but even with all that the salary does not make up for it.

Only 17% of U.S. corporate equities are held by foreigners globally. So that means out of every country in world so individual countries own very little. They missed whole Equity run up.

I was on vacation in Portugal last year and was shocked at amount of older people who did not own homes complaning rents are rising and investors are coming in from US buying homes. Well the two best ways to grown wealth is stocks and real estate. The average US worker has a house and a 401k, the average European does not. Only 47.2 percent of Germans own a home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So much misinformation and half truths.
These nations beat the US in almost every measure - infant mortality, violent crimes, percent of population in prison, wage gap, health care access… but yes, let’s obsess about taxation rate.

Except they're poor and the US is rich.

Now do income inequality. The Gini coefficient for the UK was 0.329% in 2024. The US was 0.418.

The tipping point for violent revolution is usually about 0.5.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Basically US only remaining first world country, UK, Western Europe, Australia and Canada 2nd world countries, everything else the bloody third world.

Ok Vlad. Good job explanining your categorization of the world to us in broken 1980s English. Can you explain why your "third world" Japan, Korea and HK have a much higher life expectancy than your "first world" USA?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As someone who spent most of career working for European comanies in the USA here are main reasons.
1) we get paid more
2) we pay less tax
3) We own far more US Stock which has been on a tear the last 18 years
4) companies grant RSUs unlike Europe
5) no Vat tax on purchases.
6) more likely to own real estate which also been way up.

My boss in Europe made less then me in the USA who reported to him. Paid more taxes, lived in a rental and owned hardly any stocks.

Now an unemployed person, person who company gives no medical, parents with kids in college and young moms looking for cheap child care better in Europe but even with all that the salary does not make up for it.

Only 17% of U.S. corporate equities are held by foreigners globally. So that means out of every country in world so individual countries own very little. They missed whole Equity run up.

I was on vacation in Portugal last year and was shocked at amount of older people who did not own homes complaning rents are rising and investors are coming in from US buying homes. Well the two best ways to grown wealth is stocks and real estate. The average US worker has a house and a 401k, the average European does not. Only 47.2 percent of Germans own a home.

Portugal is one of the poorest countries in Europe and has a population of 10 million people. The US is the wealthiest country in the world and has a population of 342 million. Why are you even doing this comparison?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Basically US only remaining first world country, UK, Western Europe, Australia and Canada 2nd world countries, everything else the bloody third world.

Ok Vlad. Good job explanining your categorization of the world to us in broken 1980s English. Can you explain why your "third world" Japan, Korea and HK have a much higher life expectancy than your "first world" USA?

Why is the US a first world country and Australia second world country? Australia has a second highest median wealth in the world after Luxembourg. Its average life expectancy is FIVE YEARS longer than in the US.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Basically US only remaining first world country, UK, Western Europe, Australia and Canada 2nd world countries, everything else the bloody third world.

Ok Vlad. Good job explanining your categorization of the world to us in broken 1980s English. Can you explain why your "third world" Japan, Korea and HK have a much higher life expectancy than your "first world" USA?

Why is the US a first world country and Australia second world country? Australia has a second highest median wealth in the world after Luxembourg. Its average life expectancy is FIVE YEARS longer than in the US.

The USA ranks 55th among countries with respect to life expectancy. Which is pathetic for the wealthiest country in the world. But when American priorities are to be rich rather than to make sure that the poorest in society have their basic needs covered and access to healthcare, here we are.