Why do UVA and Michigan attract such affluent student bodies?

[Anonymous]

Both UVA and Michigan have relatively high OOS student percentages and relatively high OOS tuition. In many cases, a lower income student applying from OOS who is accepted will receive better aid packages from private schools and will go there. That leaves relatively high income OOS students.

As shown above, the Virginia schools that draw more from NOVA have relatively affluent in state bases as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“People who are value conscious realize that the same price for a private is a better value.”

There are very few privates that offer the overall academic excellence that Michigan provides. It’s no value to pay high fees to either a public or private school if it doesn’t measure up. Your comment is too simplistic and generalized.

Those few are ivy/plus, deemed by some other articles to be uchcago stanford duke and mit…throw in hopkins and northwestern: they all provide a demonstrably better education and experience: more resource $ per student, smaller on average classes and a smarter on average peer group than Michigan. Depending on particular needs one could argue WashU, Vanderbilt, Notre Dame, Georgetown, and the top LAcs are at least a match to umich if not better, due to resources per student, better student professor ratios etc
For others the large size and sports of Michigan makes it better than the others in the second tier

Glad to see that you agree that very few privates that match up to what Michigan provides academically. I would say that the 20 or so schools that you mentioned fall into that very few category. Michigan is ranked #16 by USNWR for the quality of its undergraduate teaching rankings.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/undergraduate-teaching

[Anonymous]

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Just to compare public universities (from the NYT):

Students from top 1% of families

Michigan 9.3%
Virginia 8.5%
Illinois 2.5%
Penn State 2.3%
Wisconsin 1.7%

Students from top 10% of families

[b]Michigan 49%
Virginia 49%
Illinois 30%
Penn State 27%
Wisconsin 19%[/b][/quote]

Where are you getting the top 10% number?[/quote]

It is in the Chetty/NYT data. But that shows the difference may be more related to state of Virginia demographics and attendance patterns than UVA itself. The top 10% in family income numbers are:

W&M 56%, UVA 49%, JMU 45%, VMI 43%, UMW 41%, VT 37%, CNU 35%, GMU 31%. All of these are higher than Illinois, Penn State, and Wisconsin.

Note that this information is a few years old. USNWR's new ranking criteria have caused schools to push hard to enroll more Pell students, which may have changed the demographics.
[/quote]

Link, please.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One reason U of Mich got so good is that the Detroit area was one of the wealthiest in the world for a while due to the auto industry. And even after the American auto industry sagged in the last 35 yrs of the 20th century, there was/is still a lot of money in the state. There are suburbs of Detroit you wouldn’t believe.

I can never figure that out..tons of high level jobs are gone from the Big Three. And suppliers usually have piss poor margins. So where do all the people in Bloomfield Hills or Grosse Pointe work? Or is a lot of it inherited money? Everybody can't own an insurance company or be a financial advisor.

You can't even imagine how many well-paid jobs there once were in the domestic auto industry. But there still are plenty left. And some Japanese, Korean, and other OEMs have offices in Detroit. There are many dual engineer couples here. 2 people making $80K each (low for mid-career supplier money) can easily afford a nice house in the local equivalent of the Wooton zone.

Plus the Boomer white collar retirees are drawing 50% pensions or more.

Bloomfield Hills is full of CEOs.

Grosse Pointe is a mix. That might be where dual attorney couples go to live if they like traditional homes. There is some old money there. (Grosse Pointers, help me out!)

By the way, money pit historic mansions are really cheap in Detroit. Executives that pass through like to buy them for a few years.

Oakland County used to be as affluent as Montgomery County. That is not true anymore. But it hasn't been that long since it was. The K-12 schools are not as good but from what I read, MCPS and Fairfax schools have many of the same problems.

Unfortunately, another round of offshoring is beginning. Chrysler's latest European parent (Stellantis) is planning to transfer more U.S. engineering work to emerging economies.

Grosse Pointer here! Outside of family money, the wealthy people I know aren’t (directly) related to the auto industry. We do have some friends that have inherited family companies of auto suppliers, but a lot of them have diversified their offerings. The “new money” seems to come from the same place as a lot of other cities - tech, health care, law, etc. Many people that have started their own successful businesses. But GP is way more normal than people think, median home price is under $500k across the Pointes and there are some schools with 20%+ of free and reduced lunch and Title 1 qualified. We live a 3 bedroom home that is nothing special, but literally 1 block away are $10 million lakefront mansions. It’s an interesting place!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NOVA parent with DCs at both Michigan and UVA (and also a Michigan and Ivy alum), offering some subjective opinions on the two schools.

Michigan

1. As discussed, Michigan was open to admitting Jews and later Asians who were blocked from the Ivies. Many of these folks were full pay, and their families became loyal to the school.
2. Yes, there are some very wealthy folks from Grosse Pointe, etc., but also from Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, Traverse City. The old money stayed.
3. Michigan has a large, with many full pay, international student population.
4. Michigan has lots of Federal and industry research money coming in.
5. There are a few celeb kids (kids of Obama, Madonna, Eminem, Kelly Ripa, Jake Tapper, etc.) but of course not all stay (although I heard Eminem's kid was a very good student).

The place thus has more like an NE/California (but not the weather!) vibe than most of surrounding area because of the OOS folks. And many of the in-state folks are pretty wealthy.

Virginia

1. Jefferson and his crowd were pretty rich. Rich Southerners have sent their kids to Charlottesville for generations. UVA has its own resort and polo club!
2. Charlottesville has some pretty high net worth people in the surrounding countryside.
3. UVA has been popular with the NE prep school and day school crowd also for generations. UVA admissions has a couple of regional reps who focus on this market.
4. There are Asians, but they are more likely to be in-state folks (like us). UVA has fewer international students but is looking to increase them.
5. UVA for a long time gave cheap in-state tuition for grad school to folks who lived in Virginia for a year and paid taxes. A lot of value-minded Ivy grads worked in DC but lived in Arlington and Alexandria to get in-state tuition for law or business school. This ended a while ago, though. But these folks are still loyal to UVA.
6. UVA acts more like a private school in terms of parent communications and overall attitude. Michigan really felt like the massive public school that it is.

UVA thus feels more WASPy, old money than Michigan. But it still feels very wealthy indeed.

I live there and this is not true.

Eminem's daughter sent to Michigan State. She just got married. My daughter met her at a party and said she was very nice.

[Anonymous]

"went"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One reason U of Mich got so good is that the Detroit area was one of the wealthiest in the world for a while due to the auto industry. And even after the American auto industry sagged in the last 35 yrs of the 20th century, there was/is still a lot of money in the state. There are suburbs of Detroit you wouldn’t believe.

I can never figure that out..tons of high level jobs are gone from the Big Three. And suppliers usually have piss poor margins. So where do all the people in Bloomfield Hills or Grosse Pointe work? Or is a lot of it inherited money? Everybody can't own an insurance company or be a financial advisor.

You can't even imagine how many well-paid jobs there once were in the domestic auto industry. But there still are plenty left. And some Japanese, Korean, and other OEMs have offices in Detroit. There are many dual engineer couples here. 2 people making $80K each (low for mid-career supplier money) can easily afford a nice house in the local equivalent of the Wooton zone.

Plus the Boomer white collar retirees are drawing 50% pensions or more.

Bloomfield Hills is full of CEOs.

Grosse Pointe is a mix. That might be where dual attorney couples go to live if they like traditional homes. There is some old money there. (Grosse Pointers, help me out!)

By the way, money pit historic mansions are really cheap in Detroit. Executives that pass through like to buy them for a few years.

Oakland County used to be as affluent as Montgomery County. That is not true anymore. But it hasn't been that long since it was. The K-12 schools are not as good but from what I read, MCPS and Fairfax schools have many of the same problems.

Unfortunately, another round of offshoring is beginning. Chrysler's latest European parent (Stellantis) is planning to transfer more U.S. engineering work to emerging economies.

Southeast Michigan has fewer people living there than in 1970. And there are now more Michigan State grads in Chicago than Detroit. Sure, even in the most beat up Rust Belt town someone has money, but I know if a number of executives who work outside of Michigan and commute back to their homes every week. So there is money, but how many are there all the time? No doubt there are a lot but that isn't the total picture.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One reason U of Mich got so good is that the Detroit area was one of the wealthiest in the world for a while due to the auto industry. And even after the American auto industry sagged in the last 35 yrs of the 20th century, there was/is still a lot of money in the state. There are suburbs of Detroit you wouldn’t believe.

I can never figure that out..tons of high level jobs are gone from the Big Three. And suppliers usually have piss poor margins. So where do all the people in Bloomfield Hills or Grosse Pointe work? Or is a lot of it inherited money? Everybody can't own an insurance company or be a financial advisor.

You can't even imagine how many well-paid jobs there once were in the domestic auto industry. But there still are plenty left. And some Japanese, Korean, and other OEMs have offices in Detroit. There are many dual engineer couples here. 2 people making $80K each (low for mid-career supplier money) can easily afford a nice house in the local equivalent of the Wooton zone.

Plus the Boomer white collar retirees are drawing 50% pensions or more.

Bloomfield Hills is full of CEOs.

Grosse Pointe is a mix. That might be where dual attorney couples go to live if they like traditional homes. There is some old money there. (Grosse Pointers, help me out!)

By the way, money pit historic mansions are really cheap in Detroit. Executives that pass through like to buy them for a few years.

Oakland County used to be as affluent as Montgomery County. That is not true anymore. But it hasn't been that long since it was. The K-12 schools are not as good but from what I read, MCPS and Fairfax schools have many of the same problems.

Unfortunately, another round of offshoring is beginning. Chrysler's latest European parent (Stellantis) is planning to transfer more U.S. engineering work to emerging economies.

Southeast Michigan has fewer people living there than in 1970. And there are now more Michigan State grads in Chicago than Detroit. Sure, even in the most beat up Rust Belt town someone has money, but I know if a number of executives who work outside of Michigan and commute back to their homes every week. So there is money, but how many are there all the time? No doubt there are a lot but that isn't the total picture.

Your analysis does not relate to the topic. The discussion is about where the better-off kids at U of M come from. Many of them come from the Detroit suburbs. Where there are many well-paid parents.

It is well known that there are many college grads from the state of Michigan working in the Chicago job market. It's a large and more diversified job market only 3-5 hours drive away. Presumably there are many Pennsylvania college grads working in the NYC metro area. This is not surprising.

[Anonymous]

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Just to compare public universities (from the NYT):

Students from top 1% of families

Michigan 9.3%
Virginia 8.5%
Illinois 2.5%
Penn State 2.3%
Wisconsin 1.7%

Students from top 10% of families

[b]Michigan 49%
Virginia 49%
Illinois 30%
Penn State 27%
Wisconsin 19%[/b][/quote]

Where are you getting the top 10% number?[/quote]

It is in the Chetty/NYT data. But that shows the difference may be more related to state of Virginia demographics and attendance patterns than UVA itself. The top 10% in family income numbers are:

W&M 56%, UVA 49%, JMU 45%, VMI 43%, UMW 41%, VT 37%, CNU 35%, GMU 31%. All of these are higher than Illinois, Penn State, and Wisconsin.

Note that this information is a few years old. USNWR's new ranking criteria have caused schools to push hard to enroll more Pell students, which may have changed the demographics.
[/quote]

Link, please.[/quote]

It was provided earlier

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/18/upshot/some-colleges-have-more-students-from-the-top-1-percent-than-the-bottom-60.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“People who are value conscious realize that the same price for a private is a better value.”

There are very few privates that offer the overall academic excellence that Michigan provides. It’s no value to pay high fees to either a public or private school if it doesn’t measure up. Your comment is too simplistic and generalized.

Those few are ivy/plus, deemed by some other articles to be uchcago stanford duke and mit…throw in hopkins and northwestern: they all provide a demonstrably better education and experience: more resource $ per student, smaller on average classes and a smarter on average peer group than Michigan. Depending on particular needs one could argue WashU, Vanderbilt, Notre Dame, Georgetown, and the top LAcs are at least a match to umich if not better, due to resources per student, better student professor ratios etc
For others the large size and sports of Michigan makes it better than the others in the second tier

Glad to see that you agree that very few privates that match up to what Michigan provides academically. I would say that the 20 or so schools that you mentioned fall into that very few category. Michigan is ranked #16 by USNWR for the quality of its undergraduate teaching rankings.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/undergraduate-teaching

A lot of privates match or exceed what Michigan provides academically depending on what the student is looking for.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“People who are value conscious realize that the same price for a private is a better value.”

There are very few privates that offer the overall academic excellence that Michigan provides. It’s no value to pay high fees to either a public or private school if it doesn’t measure up. Your comment is too simplistic and generalized.

Those few are ivy/plus, deemed by some other articles to be uchcago stanford duke and mit…throw in hopkins and northwestern: they all provide a demonstrably better education and experience: more resource $ per student, smaller on average classes and a smarter on average peer group than Michigan. Depending on particular needs one could argue WashU, Vanderbilt, Notre Dame, Georgetown, and the top LAcs are at least a match to umich if not better, due to resources per student, better student professor ratios etc
For others the large size and sports of Michigan makes it better than the others in the second tier

Glad to see that you agree that very few privates that match up to what Michigan provides academically. I would say that the 20 or so schools that you mentioned fall into that very few category. Michigan is ranked #16 by USNWR for the quality of its undergraduate teaching rankings.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/undergraduate-teaching

A lot of privates match or exceed what Michigan provides academically depending on what the student is looking for.

Yes, & many of them are in crappy or boring locations that pale in comparison to the liveliness of AnnArbor. Places where the immediate surroundings are pretty dull compared to U of Michigan’s: Hopkins, Northwestern, U Chicago, Notre Dame, Wash U, Wake Forest, Yale, Duke, Case Western, Dartmouth.

My kid went to Northwestern, & it was very common for students there to visit friends at U of Michigan. They would usually return from visits raving about how much more fun Ann Arbor was than Evanston.