To submit or not submit? That is the question….

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Its a case by case decision for each school.....

Not really

I mean I wouldn't submit a 33 to most T20 schools, would you?

This year, yes. Next year, it will be required.

This is BS. Why does a change in policy at a handful of schools (Ivys) change anything for all the schools that are still TO, some of which were TO before the pandemic? It's not a one size fits all.

I agree.
Based on last published CDS, I would not, for example, submit a 33 to Vanderbilt, WashU, Rice, Northwestern, Michigan or Emory for next fall. I probably missing another T20 (assuming the 3.9uw gpa is from a private HS - if a public HS you probably have to parse through this data further).

That cds info will be two years old this fall.

But it’s always 2 yrs old in the fall? There’s always a lag. This year is no different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Its a case by case decision for each school.....

Not really

I mean I wouldn't submit a 33 to most T20 schools, would you?

This year, yes. Next year, it will be required.

This is BS. Why does a change in policy at a handful of schools (Ivys) change anything for all the schools that are still TO, some of which were TO before the pandemic? It's not a one size fits all.

I agree.
Based on last published CDS, I would not, for example, submit a 33 to Vanderbilt, WashU, Rice, Northwestern, Michigan or Emory for next fall. I probably missing another T20 (assuming the 3.9uw gpa is from a private HS - if a public HS you probably have to parse through this data further).

That cds info will be two years old this fall.

But it’s always 2 yrs old in the fall? There’s always a lag. This year is no different.

It’s stupid to rely on two year old data when each admissions cycle has been different from the last.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Its a case by case decision for each school.....

Not really

I mean I wouldn't submit a 33 to most T20 schools, would you?

This year, yes. Next year, it will be required.

This is BS. Why does a change in policy at a handful of schools (Ivys) change anything for all the schools that are still TO, some of which were TO before the pandemic? It's not a one size fits all.

Why? Test optional has only existed for three cycles, schools that were test blind or had already announced test optional have switched back and our local private is strongly encouraging submitting test scores. Most believe that test optional will only be for hooked kids going forward, outside of the schools that were test optional pre covid. It was a rapid change to test optional and it will be a rapid change back, especially since the data from those admits is showing they don’t perform as well as kids who submit test scores.

Why not look at each college's policy? If they say they are TO, why assume that they have moved to test required or preferred? Won't they say so? Why would they lie? Only a dozen or so schools are test required or preferred so with those you know you need to submit. Why follow the "most believe" advice and not the school's policy?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Its a case by case decision for each school.....

Not really

I mean I wouldn't submit a 33 to most T20 schools, would you?

This year, yes. Next year, it will be required.

This is BS. Why does a change in policy at a handful of schools (Ivys) change anything for all the schools that are still TO, some of which were TO before the pandemic? It's not a one size fits all.

Why? Test optional has only existed for three cycles, schools that were test blind or had already announced test optional have switched back and our local private is strongly encouraging submitting test scores. Most believe that test optional will only be for hooked kids going forward, outside of the schools that were test optional pre covid. It was a rapid change to test optional and it will be a rapid change back, especially since the data from those admits is showing they don’t perform as well as kids who submit test scores.

Why not look at each college's policy? If they say they are TO, why assume that they have moved to test required or preferred? Won't they say so? Why would they lie? Only a dozen or so schools are test required or preferred so with those you know you need to submit. Why follow the "most believe" advice and not the school's policy?

This is why op needs to talk to their college counselor. They likely will tell her that test optional has informally become test aware, at least for non hooked students. Kids who submit test scores consistently do much better placement wise than those who don’t at our private despite the claims of the one or two “test optional” devotees on DCUM, who don’t even seem to live in the DMV.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Its a case by case decision for each school.....

Not really

I mean I wouldn't submit a 33 to most T20 schools, would you?

This year, yes. Next year, it will be required.

This is BS. Why does a change in policy at a handful of schools (Ivys) change anything for all the schools that are still TO, some of which were TO before the pandemic? It's not a one size fits all.

I agree.
Based on last published CDS, I would not, for example, submit a 33 to Vanderbilt, WashU, Rice, Northwestern, Michigan or Emory for next fall. I probably missing another T20 (assuming the 3.9uw gpa is from a private HS - if a public HS you probably have to parse through this data further).

What data do you parse to determine how coming from a public school factors in?

I’d imagine you should look at your schools Scoir or Naviance data? But I don’t know

Naviance is not that helpful because it doesn't show who legacies/athletes are...also, it includes 5 years worth of data.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks for the advice...DC is not taking the test again. Mental health > 40 points.

"Reach" schools are in the T20-T40 range (ranging from Michigan to Emory to BC). We are full pay and they will ED somewhere.

more like T25 and 25-50.
A 1460 won't do it for Emory ED or not. Maybe Umich however.

Personally, I think it's hurts for UM in this case. It's very competitive OOS and only top kids are getting in now. OP admits that DC has "decent but not outstanding extracurricular activities" and only generic recommendations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC has taken the SAT three times. Final score is 1460 (710v, 750m). This score is between the 25th and 50th percentiles for their “reach” schools, most of which appear to have about 30-40% apply test optional.

DC has great grades (3.95+ us) from an area public with high rigor; decent but not outstanding extracurricular activities. No hooks. LOCs will be fine but public school is big and doesn’t have a particularly close relationship with any teacher so we don’t expect those to be anything special.

Submit scores?

Our DS is similar. Taken the test twice, has cleared 1450 (>700 on each section) but not 1500, and is done. Great grades at a well regarded private school. Solid ECs. No hooks. He's planning to submit everywhere. Unlikely to hurt him most places, might help him in some, and, regardless, he has a bunch of schools he'd be excited to attend and he'd rather be dinged from some of them than feel like he snuck into wherever he ends up.

How sad that your kid attaches so much of his self-worth to a test score and can’t imagine he could be valued as an applicant without it.

+1 It's insulting to say TO kids "snuck in" No, they had great grades in hard classes, ECs, recommendations, AP scores, and essays.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC has taken the SAT three times. Final score is 1460 (710v, 750m). This score is between the 25th and 50th percentiles for their “reach” schools, most of which appear to have about 30-40% apply test optional.

DC has great grades (3.95+ us) from an area public with high rigor; decent but not outstanding extracurricular activities. No hooks. LOCs will be fine but public school is big and doesn’t have a particularly close relationship with any teacher so we don’t expect those to be anything special.

Submit scores?

Our DS is similar. Taken the test twice, has cleared 1450 (>700 on each section) but not 1500, and is done. Great grades at a well regarded private school. Solid ECs. No hooks. He's planning to submit everywhere. Unlikely to hurt him most places, might help him in some, and, regardless, he has a bunch of schools he'd be excited to attend and he'd rather be dinged from some of them than feel like he snuck into wherever he ends up.

How sad that your kid attaches so much of his self-worth to a test score and can’t imagine he could be valued as an applicant without it.

+1 It's insulting to say TO kids "snuck in" No, they had great grades in hard classes, ECs, recommendations, AP scores, and essays.

There’s a lot of objective data showing that the test optional kids are not doing as well as the kids who submitted scores.

[Anonymous]

Anecdote: my kid was waffling over submitting a 1500 score to schools, including CMU (for engineering). I convinced him to do it, as I feel like trying to get into a STEM program as an unhooked UMC kid looks shady. He thought for sure he wouldn't get in, but did - and this was not even for ED. (FYI -- he turned CMU down for GT, another school he thought his score was too low for).

[Anonymous]

Prob too early to decide this. I’m sure next 6 months will be filled with these questions.

If you listen to YCBK podcast, submit this as a question (Maybe frame it a bit more generally) through the sound pipe app. I bet he’ll cover it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would submit. That is a good score. In the context of this application as you describe it, it’s a positive data point.

Temper expectations and have a good solid list below the BC/Emory level. Keep the focus on likelies, rather than reaches.

BC and Emory are.nit the same level. 1460 is fine for BC, not for Emory

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Its a case by case decision for each school.....

Not really

I mean I wouldn't submit a 33 to most T20 schools, would you?

This year, yes. Next year, it will be required.

This is BS. Why does a change in policy at a handful of schools (Ivys) change anything for all the schools that are still TO, some of which were TO before the pandemic? It's not a one size fits all.

Why? Test optional has only existed for three cycles, schools that were test blind or had already announced test optional have switched back and our local private is strongly encouraging submitting test scores. Most believe that test optional will only be for hooked kids going forward, outside of the schools that were test optional pre covid. It was a rapid change to test optional and it will be a rapid change back, especially since the data from those admits is showing they don’t perform as well as kids who submit test scores.

Bowdoin has been test optional since 1969. Chicago has been test optional since 2018.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC has taken the SAT three times. Final score is 1460 (710v, 750m). This score is between the 25th and 50th percentiles for their “reach” schools, most of which appear to have about 30-40% apply test optional.

DC has great grades (3.95+ us) from an area public with high rigor; decent but not outstanding extracurricular activities. No hooks. LOCs will be fine but public school is big and doesn’t have a particularly close relationship with any teacher so we don’t expect those to be anything special.

Submit scores?

Our DS is similar. Taken the test twice, has cleared 1450 (>700 on each section) but not 1500, and is done. Great grades at a well regarded private school. Solid ECs. No hooks. He's planning to submit everywhere. Unlikely to hurt him most places, might help him in some, and, regardless, he has a bunch of schools he'd be excited to attend and he'd rather be dinged from some of them than feel like he snuck into wherever he ends up.

How sad that your kid attaches so much of his self-worth to a test score and can’t imagine he could be valued as an applicant without it.

+1 It's insulting to say TO kids "snuck in" No, they had great grades in hard classes, ECs, recommendations, AP scores, and essays.

There’s a lot of objective data showing that the test optional kids are not doing as well as the kids who submitted scores.

There's also a lot of objective data showing the opposite.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC has taken the SAT three times. Final score is 1460 (710v, 750m). This score is between the 25th and 50th percentiles for their “reach” schools, most of which appear to have about 30-40% apply test optional.

DC has great grades (3.95+ us) from an area public with high rigor; decent but not outstanding extracurricular activities. No hooks. LOCs will be fine but public school is big and doesn’t have a particularly close relationship with any teacher so we don’t expect those to be anything special.

Submit scores?

Our DS is similar. Taken the test twice, has cleared 1450 (>700 on each section) but not 1500, and is done. Great grades at a well regarded private school. Solid ECs. No hooks. He's planning to submit everywhere. Unlikely to hurt him most places, might help him in some, and, regardless, he has a bunch of schools he'd be excited to attend and he'd rather be dinged from some of them than feel like he snuck into wherever he ends up.

How sad that your kid attaches so much of his self-worth to a test score and can’t imagine he could be valued as an applicant without it.

+1 It's insulting to say TO kids "snuck in" No, they had great grades in hard classes, ECs, recommendations, AP scores, and essays.

There’s a lot of objective data showing that the test optional kids are not doing as well as the kids who submitted scores.

There's also a lot of objective data showing the opposite.

It sounds like you have to do a regression analysis to determine what factors go into decisions to submit or not where you include factors such as
- Public vs private school of your kid
- their potential major
- their grades
- their class rank
- the ranking of the specific college
- the % TO that college accepts

Given that most of us are not statisticians, we do need to rely on some kind of rule of thumb. It does seem like many are still relying on the "don't submit unless you are in the X% or higher"...the question is, is that still 75% like it has been? 50%? 25?

[Anonymous]

Interesting question posted on AN25 today about not submitting test scores to likelies if the test score is much much higher than the school’s average score (yield protection)?