Why the middle class has a huge disadvantage in admissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes. We had to pay almost full private university tuition, except for a tiny Pell grant that was maybe $3000. Current price is almost $80,000/year. Parents = public school teacher + nurse.

You’re just a propaganda sock puppet working for China or Russia.

You might be able to be middle class and get a Pell grant if you were self-employed and had irregular income. No way if you have salaried public service jobs.

[Anonymous]

I agree that it is doable. But not if you earn a middle class income and spend it on private school, a big house, fancy vacations every year, a luxury vehicle, travel sports, designer clothes, etc.

I am a single parent (professional) who raised my kid in a condo, chosen because of its proximity to good public schools. I saved as much as I could when she was growing (which started VERY low), and continued saving generously when she was in college. She chose a lower tier private that gave her a merit scholarship that cut the price in half. She worked during the summers and won a few more modest scholarships in college that enabled her to graduate with no loans.

I am proud of her and myself.

You have to have priorities people. A college education is expensive, and as others have said, you saw this coming for a long time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^as if all of us did European vacations and drive Mercedes. LOL. Clueless. Net price calculator EVERYWHERE is that we will get $0. We saved, we aren't big spenders, etc.

There is this complete disconnect that people don't understand how hard some of us worked and the sacrifices we made after paying off our own student loans because now we fall just outside the aid group. And, any generational advantage we managed to scrape up to will essentially be wiped out by college tuition.

Instead of fighting with each other, we all need to demand something be done about the exorbitant cost of college these days. It will be $100k year soon for many of these private universities and the publics will bump accordingly. AT 85K, we aren't that far away from it.

Since you have struggled so much with student loan debt of your own (and your spouses), I would think you would understand that where you go does not matter---it's what you do while there and that student loan debt is NOT worth it. Amazing that you list that as a struggle yet somehow still think your kids and/or you should take on massive debt for college. Imagine the gift of state school or private with good merit that means your kid only takes on $27K total of debt and you take on none.

I was a STEM major, my kid is not. The actual school is much more important for future employment.

Maybe for graduate school, but not really for undergrad. Plenty of T20 non-Stem Majors still making only 40-60K 5 years after graduation. I'd argue it is what the kid does while at school that matters more. And in a lower paying field, it's even more important to not go into major debt. Much easier to have a great life if you only have a $300/month student loan payment ($27K in loans), not $1500/month.

Everyone is just assuming the article is about affordability when it really isn't. There isn't a break down of stem/non-stem, but there an analysis of the benefits of an elite education. Median income isn't different, but the study shows the odds of ending up in the 1%, going to an elite grad program, or landing a prestigious job are much higher going to an elite school vs state flagship.

[Anonymous]

All you posters didn’t even read the article!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:All you posters didn’t even read the article!

Hey, but 8 pages of rehashed gripes riffing off a headline!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The middle class has the biggest disadvantage when it comes to college admissions. Do you agree with this?

Here’s the information: https://www.instagram.com/reel/CvOJWf8r-rF/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

That diagram is misleading. The middle class is the group with the largest college attendance in terms of absolute numbers. Each applicant understand well the concept of applying to "reach" schools as well as "safety" schools. Because of these two factors, they will certainly show the most rejections. BUT... they still form a majority at the colleges they do attend, and are unlikely to be unable to find a good school, assuming they have any interest in academics.

It's not the case that they bounce from admission to admission and end up spending the Freshman year at home or community college because they could not get into college. They overall admission rates still dwarf those of lower-income, minority and first-in-family college students. While each of them is sitting on a stack of yeses and some nos, overall, they still have the highest rate of admission overall into "a" college. Maybe not their "reach" one, but a good fit for where they are, academically.

And this is why the chart making the rounds -- just as politicians are looking to do away with minority-aware admissions -- is propaganda, not information. Of course they see rejection. But they also see plenty success.

[Anonymous]

Also, note that the chart says NOTHING about financial aid. The thread focusses on affordability, while the chart discusses admissions. Those are independent issues, people. If you have college ready kids, you already know this, and are just playing victim here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree that it is doable. But not if you earn a middle class income and spend it on private school, a big house, fancy vacations every year, a luxury vehicle, travel sports, designer clothes, etc.

I am a single parent (professional) who raised my kid in a condo, chosen because of its proximity to good public schools. I saved as much as I could when she was growing (which started VERY low), and continued saving generously when she was in college. She chose a lower tier private that gave her a merit scholarship that cut the price in half. She worked during the summers and won a few more modest scholarships in college that enabled her to graduate with no loans.

I am proud of her and myself.

You have to have priorities people. A college education is expensive, and as others have said, you saw this coming for a long time.

+1

But most people just want to keep up with the neighbors and friends. Most just spend all extra raises over the years and move to a larger home and buy that fancy car and take the vacations they "deserve". Instead of saving for college and retirement. There are plenty of excellent private schools that offer great merit to good/excellent students. My own 26ACT/3.5UW/no APs got into a T80 that costs $65K+ and only cost us $40K/year. Had they been a top student it would have only cost us $30K. And that kid also got into a T120 school that would have only cost us $30K/year. Or they could have gone to an excellent state school for $3K tuition/year (rest was merit award) for a total cost of about $15-17K/year. This was not a top student---yet they could attend a great school without much debt---my kid could have earned $10-12K of that $15=17K themselves, leaving me with ~$5-6K to pay per year


Point is you can find the right school at the right cost if you look.

My 1500/3.99UW/6APs got into a T50 and instead of $80k+ we are only paying $40K/year. Had we been searching for merit, my kid could be attending college for less than $20K easily, just not at an elite university. They got into several ranked between 30-80 that would only cost us $40-45K/year and we were not even searching for merit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^as if all of us did European vacations and drive Mercedes. LOL. Clueless. Net price calculator EVERYWHERE is that we will get $0. We saved, we aren't big spenders, etc.

There is this complete disconnect that people don't understand how hard some of us worked and the sacrifices we made after paying off our own student loans because now we fall just outside the aid group. And, any generational advantage we managed to scrape up to will essentially be wiped out by college tuition.

Instead of fighting with each other, we all need to demand something be done about the exorbitant cost of college these days. It will be $100k year soon for many of these private universities and the publics will bump accordingly. AT 85K, we aren't that far away from it.

Since you have struggled so much with student loan debt of your own (and your spouses), I would think you would understand that where you go does not matter---it's what you do while there and that student loan debt is NOT worth it. Amazing that you list that as a struggle yet somehow still think your kids and/or you should take on massive debt for college. Imagine the gift of state school or private with good merit that means your kid only takes on $27K total of debt and you take on none.

I was a STEM major, my kid is not. The actual school is much more important for future employment.

Maybe for graduate school, but not really for undergrad. Plenty of T20 non-Stem Majors still making only 40-60K 5 years after graduation. I'd argue it is what the kid does while at school that matters more. And in a lower paying field, it's even more important to not go into major debt. Much easier to have a great life if you only have a $300/month student loan payment ($27K in loans), not $1500/month.

Everyone is just assuming the article is about affordability when it really isn't. There isn't a break down of stem/non-stem, but there an analysis of the benefits of an elite education. Median income isn't different, but the study shows the odds of ending up in the 1%, going to an elite grad program, or landing a prestigious job are much higher going to an elite school vs state flagship.

And the majority of kids making it to the 1% are there not because of the "elite school" but because of the family they come from and the family connections they already had. If you compare it to kids with the elite resume and ability to get into an elite school but went to the state school, there isn't much difference. The kids with the smarts, drive and desire to be in the 1% and do the work to get there still end up at elite grad schools, going to medical school, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^as if all of us did European vacations and drive Mercedes. LOL. Clueless. Net price calculator EVERYWHERE is that we will get $0. We saved, we aren't big spenders, etc.

There is this complete disconnect that people don't understand how hard some of us worked and the sacrifices we made after paying off our own student loans because now we fall just outside the aid group. And, any generational advantage we managed to scrape up to will essentially be wiped out by college tuition.

Instead of fighting with each other, we all need to demand something be done about the exorbitant cost of college these days. It will be $100k year soon for many of these private universities and the publics will bump accordingly. AT 85K, we aren't that far away from it.

Since you have struggled so much with student loan debt of your own (and your spouses), I would think you would understand that where you go does not matter---it's what you do while there and that student loan debt is NOT worth it. Amazing that you list that as a struggle yet somehow still think your kids and/or you should take on massive debt for college. Imagine the gift of state school or private with good merit that means your kid only takes on $27K total of debt and you take on none.

I was a STEM major, my kid is not. The actual school is much more important for future employment.

Maybe for graduate school, but not really for undergrad. Plenty of T20 non-Stem Majors still making only 40-60K 5 years after graduation. I'd argue it is what the kid does while at school that matters more. And in a lower paying field, it's even more important to not go into major debt. Much easier to have a great life if you only have a $300/month student loan payment ($27K in loans), not $1500/month.

Everyone is just assuming the article is about affordability when it really isn't. There isn't a break down of stem/non-stem, but there an analysis of the benefits of an elite education. Median income isn't different, but the study shows the odds of ending up in the 1%, going to an elite grad program, or landing a prestigious job are much higher going to an elite school vs state flagship.

And the majority of kids making it to the 1% are there not because of the "elite school" but because of the family they come from and the family connections they already had. If you compare it to kids with the elite resume and ability to get into an elite school but went to the state school, there isn't much difference. The kids with the smarts, drive and desire to be in the 1% and do the work to get there still end up at elite grad schools, going to medical school, etc.

Okay, that's your opinion, but the study actually examines this and finds differently.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I get frustrated by people that get so bent out of shape about this.
I get being frustrated by the rich (I say we eat them! ) but the simmering resentment about people at lower incomes disturbs me.
Yes, you will not qualify for financial aid (or very little financial aid) if you are at a certain income level. But people just throw the word "aid" around like it's just a big present wrapped up in a bow with no strings attached. Yes, some aid is just a grant--essentially free money. You have to be very low income indeed to qualify for that. Would you really want your income to be that low, just for the four years of grant money that your student would be eligible for. Think of the impact that lower income has on every facet of a person's life. Do you really feel that they are getting some kind of unfair advantage because they get more money for this one thing, while you have access to more money for... everything else.

Lots of aid is work study. It's not a free ride--the student has to spend hours of their week doing work. We did not qualify for financial aid, but both of my kids have found part time work while they are in undergrad to offset living expenses. If your student doesn't get officially "work study" you can make your own work study.

Finally there's the financial aid that is loans. Loans are not free money. Loans have to be paid back, and they have to be paid back with interest. That student that got the big aid package is often getting a big loan with it. Yes, it's the "nicer" loan, but it's still a loan. It's still starting off post grad with debt, and because that student is from a lower income family they do not have the "cushion" that a student from a middle class family has.

I'm grateful that we had the means to put a lot of money into a 529 to pay for tuition at state schools. I'm grateful that we are able to continue to put that same amount of money away each month while they are in school to pay for rent/expenses as they finish up. We were able to do this because I used the many, MANY tools that are available to give middle class people a VERY CLEAR picture of the cost of education. Having that knowlege, and having the goal of paying for undergrad for our two children, allowed us to plan accordingly.
-We made it abundantly clear to our kids that we could do in-state tuition (or the equivalent if they somehow won the merit scholarship lottery)
-We live in a modest townhouse
-We have one car
-Our family vacation were in state parks, while some classmates went to Europe

I'm not begrudging people who made different choices. If we had more $$$, heck yeah I'd have done European vacations!
It would also be fun to be able to tell my kids they could go to literally any college they wanted, private or public, that would have them.
It's also fine for people to put a higher value on certain kinds of homes, or activities, and be putting less money away in college savings.
What bugs me is the griping from people who's kids are exiting high school that seem to suddenly have the huge amount of outrage, and act like this is some kind of new explosive revelation.

PP, thank you. This is one of the first rational and realistic responses I've ever read about FA in this forum. So many folks wringing their hands about not qualifying for aid without once recognizing how difficult the lives are for the folks who did get aid. I grew up that way. I would have traded the grants, work study (because nothing is really ever free), and the loans (because schools love to loan money to the poor) for living in a decent house with more than one bathroom, a floor with no holes, and a modicum of privacy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you really feel that they are getting some kind of unfair advantage because they get more money for this one thing, while you have access to more money for... everything else.
….
What bugs me is the griping from people who's kids are exiting high school that seem to suddenly have the huge amount of outrage, and act like this is some kind of new explosive revelation.

I think the issue here is that one family has earned the access to more money, while the other family was given it. That is a really poor comparison.

Then you follow by blaming these people that earned their money for their choices while seemingly ignoring that a low income recipient of free college money are also responsible for their choices and maybe should also deal with the outcomes.

What the heck does this even mean? Even Google Translator can't decipher this hot mess.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree that it is doable. But not if you earn a middle class income and spend it on private school, a big house, fancy vacations every year, a luxury vehicle, travel sports, designer clothes, etc.

I am a single parent (professional) who raised my kid in a condo, chosen because of its proximity to good public schools. I saved as much as I could when she was growing (which started VERY low), and continued saving generously when she was in college. She chose a lower tier private that gave her a merit scholarship that cut the price in half. She worked during the summers and won a few more modest scholarships in college that enabled her to graduate with no loans.

I am proud of her and myself.

You have to have priorities people. A college education is expensive, and as others have said, you saw this coming for a long time.

+1

But most people just want to keep up with the neighbors and friends. Most just spend all extra raises over the years and move to a larger home and buy that fancy car and take the vacations they "deserve". Instead of saving for college and retirement. There are plenty of excellent private schools that offer great merit to good/excellent students. My own 26ACT/3.5UW/no APs got into a T80 that costs $65K+ and only cost us $40K/year. Had they been a top student it would have only cost us $30K. And that kid also got into a T120 school that would have only cost us $30K/year. Or they could have gone to an excellent state school for $3K tuition/year (rest was merit award) for a total cost of about $15-17K/year. This was not a top student---yet they could attend a great school without much debt---my kid could have earned $10-12K of that $15=17K themselves, leaving me with ~$5-6K to pay per year


Point is you can find the right school at the right cost if you look.

My 1500/3.99UW/6APs got into a T50 and instead of $80k+ we are only paying $40K/year. Had we been searching for merit, my kid could be attending college for less than $20K easily, just not at an elite university. They got into several ranked between 30-80 that would only cost us $40-45K/year and we were not even searching for merit.

I'm guessing that you either didn't read the article or skipped the part about the long term benefits of attending elite schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe on their work resume then can have an asterisk next to their degree from state school

With the footnote:

*accepted to JHU, UPenn, Georgetown & Duke

When some snobby Ivy alum neighbors looked down their nose when they found out I attended my large state university, I wish I was wearing a sweatshirt that had that asterisk. I was #8 (back when there was actual true rank) out of 687 kids at my Fairfax Co high school, state champ varsity sport all 4 years, student body officer, high SAT score, etc etc

My parents would only allow me to apply in-state. Rich people don’t understand we can’t all afford Ivy/top private tuition and that limits our choices.

But, hey, we have the same lifestyle now and equivalent careers.

That is what most fail to understand. Just look around at work and with your friends, and majority likely did NOT attend elite universities. At work, most of your co-workers likely attended state U, privates you've never heard off, etc. Yet somehow (sarcasm alert for the impaired) they are doing the same job as you and likely getting paid the same....how does that happen?!?!? Because nobody really cares where you went, it's more about references and how you perform on the job and how well you work with the team....

That depends on where you work. Elite schools are disproportionately represented in high paying fields and in C suites of large corporations. Hell, Harvard has a quorum on the Supreme Court

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why not use the state school option?

A lot of middle class do it.
But the conversation with your teenager is not going to be easy.
Kid: I am so excited to be accepted to my favorite and top college in the country.
You: We can’t afford 80k a year, instead you should go to state university.
Kid : So, tell me why I was working so hard in high school?
You : Well…

Yep. Though my dad told me I could only apply to VA public universities. He explained how he’d pay in-state in full or I could cover the difference for private. I just listened and applied in-state. My parents always mentioned the high cost of privates/ivies because we were middle class donut hole and would get zero aid.

We make more (adjusted with the times) than my parents did so we are surrounded by Ivy/top 10 private grads who wish to send their kids the same so I get it’s hard for them to digest.

You know what, I don't feel sorry for them, not at all. They are part of the drivers behind this notion of prestige education they so desperately cleave on to. And now the horrors of having to inhabit the same space as their public university spawn.