Why Hebrew immersion at Sela?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Language immersion programs have been criticized as providing a horse and pony show for language learning
I do support language immersion and wish there was more programs like this
What I am surprised by is the choice of language. I also get the feeling that non Jewish would at most be just tolerated at best
I am also unsure how knowledge of Hebrew would assist in the job market. Language learning tends to follow market need for the said language

Knowledge of German, French, Spanish and Mandarin will always be in demand. I understand the need for Latin too
Hebrew seems more like a religious appeal

I think you are bringing a lot of your personal bias against Jews into a conversation about a school that is, at best guess, less than 10% Jewish, and offers ZERO religious instruction. Hating Jews is en vogue - so props to you for being on trend! There are at least three charters offering Mandarin (with vocal critics), multiple charters with Spanish (vocal critics), one charter offering Latin (beloved by white parents). I am not sure why you raise German, but whatever. I would love an Italian or Portuguese charter, but like you I am a fundamentally lazy person, so unlikely I will start one any time soon.

[Anonymous]

I don’t get the appeal of a Hebrew immersion school but I guess they have enough families interested.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The cynical view - I think this is a factor, though even the supporters of immerson programs try to deny it to others, as well as to themselves - if you have a program like this you (1) privilege those who can speak the language on one side in terms of difficulty of participation in the program, if not technically in terms of the DC lottery terms and (2) allow those who get comfortable with the program to create an in-culture; and (3) this is most important and most strenuously denied by the promoters - it allows the program to REJECT those who can't stick with the language program or NOT ALLOW ENTRY after "time frame X" by students outside the program. That means a language-focuse school gradually sheds students who can't hack it, and that tends to allow the program to be more exclusive and academic.

Most importantly, the students that schools (and parents) don't want are the homeless or near-homeless children of the uneducated and shiftless who are commonly behavior and academic problem children. Having a schooling requirement - the language - that requires more than just showing up at several stages: lottery, attendance, testing, year-to-year progress - functions to not allow these true loser students to continue to be in your kids' schools.

LOOK nobody knows how to deal with these kids and they make it hard for families to want to go to the "comprehensive" schools of last resort for their kids' schooling when they know disruptive losers will be their kids' fellow students.

But trying to keep your kids segregated from those kids is definitely part of the attraction of these language schools, the oddest of which probably remains this revived language of 1 country/10 million people that has no obvious use besides moving to Tel Aviv or passing your bar mitzvah.

SO, some people will deny what I'm talking about, but generally there's more truth in the BS I spewed above than they want to admit.

I don't personally have a problem with Sela or a Hebrew immersion in DC, and would send my kid there, but I think this poster is speaking some real truth about not just Sela, but the appeal of both charters and especially language immersion in DC. It's not the only reason these schools are in high demand, but it's absolutely a huge part of it, and people who deny it on it's face are being disingenuous.

But people don't like to admit this because most parents with kids at immersion charters in DC are progressives who pay lip service to equity and will talk up the equity programs at their school. But their children will never set foot in a public school in DC (whether DCPS or charter) with a large population of at risk and/or unhoused kids. And that's not an accident.

I’m a minority and there are a good percentage of minorities (black and Hispanic) at our Spanish immersion charter.

We wanted language immersion for our high performing kid because he needed more challenge in school. School comes easy for him especially in DC where there is no G & T. He is not gifted but scores very high on standardized testing.

Most parents in DC are liberals and very comfortable with diversity.

The reason why at risk kids don’t do well in language immersion is because they don’t have support. A generalization but true that the majority of them don’t do well academically and are below grade level in ELA. So why would you put them in language immersion when they are struggling with the basics and get 0 or 50% less ELA instruction?? Learning another language is a bonus but not necessary. Learning English is a necessity. If my kid was struggling in ELA, I would pull him out of immersion.

Language immersion schools are a niche. It’s not for everyone and why you have non-immersion schools. Parents looking at the immersion charters are looking not only at the language but also at the academic performing cohort.

Nothing you say disproves the PP's point though. You are actually proving the point.

You are a "minority" parent at an immersion school. But not at risk. And then you explain that at risk kids don't do well in immersion because immersion requires at-home support and at risk kids don't get it. So if you want a school that doesn't have a lot of at risk kids, it is conveniently easy to accomplish this with an immersion charter.

Also, you say that liberal parents in DC are "comfortable" with diversity. I'd argue that like and want diversity, but only a certain kind. Progressive parents in DC (and I am one) love a school with a lot of diversity in race, country of origin, religion sexuality, etc. All of that diversity contributes to their progressive bonafides. But the one area quality where progressives in DC actually prefer LESS diversity? Socioeconomics. That's why immersion charters are so desirable. Their kids will go to school with a high-SES but otherwise diverse cohort, satisfying their desire for diversity while avoiding the negative aspects of true diversity, where some kids simply need a LOT more resources in order to have anything close to resembling equitable access.

If you don't understand these dynamics in the DC charter/lottery system, I think you are being purposefully obtuse. And I say that as a parent whose kids have attended a socioeconomically diverse DCPS and a racially "diverse" charter (where most kids are from UMC families). Progressives in DC talk the talk but mostly do not walk the walk.

These are such basic talking points that have been repeated on this board for more than decade. Congrats on parroting what someone smarter than you said a long time ago.

Parents with high performing kids want rigor in academics that will meet their kids needs. DCPS doesn’t track with G & T, has awfully low standards, and socially promote.

So if SES tracks with academic performance, then hell yes, I want less at risk kids at the school and a higher performing peer group so more challenging curriculum can be taught instead of dumbing things down. And I have no problem saying to PP above or anyone else.

The lack of self awareness of these posters is amazing. PP is saying “I don’t care that DCPS is serving the people of DC who actually use the schools. I want programming that excludes those vulnerable people so that my kid can get what I want for them.”

PP, you are a sociopath and a horrible person. Please move away from DC.

Nope, not a sociopath at all. Until DCPS cares about ALL the kids in DC and provide appropriate education to meet All the kid’s needs and not just some, tons of families will do what they can to get what their kid needs.

But hey, feel free to send your kid to majority at risk schools. Get back to us when you kid attends Cardozo, Eastern, or whatever.

When you say “ I want less at risk kids at the school”, you sound like a sociopath. You are saying “I want the public school to affirmatively work to exclude poor and vulnerable people.” That shows a sociopathic lack of empathy for children who are in extremely difficult circumstances. That’s why I think you are a sociopath. Nothing you wrote changes that impression.

This is disingenuous and I think you know it. No one is saying "less at risk". What they are saying is schools need to be willing to offer programming for those at the top of a class. Since this is a zero sum game that probably means crowding out some at the bottom. Here, context matters. You seem to be suggesting that a school like Eastern with PARCC proficiency in the single digits should not be offering programming to kids who are proficient because that would crowd out kids who are. That would be different than a school with zero at-risk wanting to exclude any at-risk.

What is more problematic than your approach is that this seems to be how DCPS does in fact approach public education. You are also creating a false construct by asserting that anyone who wants advanced programming and for schools to cater to their own kids' needs "lacks empathy" for anyone else. By that faulty logic people who have IEPs who object to AP or honors classes "lack empathy", right?

“ I want less at risk kids at the school” Is literally a direct quotation from the post I was responding to.

Context means everything.

Here at risk is a proxy for poor performance. Poor performance in DCPS means dumbing down the curriculum which is the fault and failure of DCPS. So families want schools with less at risk kids due to academic performance and peer group not because of anything personal against the kids.

ALL schools have at risk kids, DCPS and charters. The difference is the percentages. The magic number is 20%. Anything more than that impacts resources for all students and impacts academics.

OP is one of those insufferable people who is arguing that any parent who want better academics so their kids needs can also be met lack any empathy and are sociopaths by wanting less at risk kids. She is exactly why the system will never change because she argues that those kids are the only ones DCPS should serve.

Typo PP not OP

Nice try, but no. I’m pointing out the obvious fact that people who go on at great length about the changes that DCPS needs to make (tracking - despite the explicitly racist history of tracking in DCPS, expelling kids with discipline issues — despite the mountain of evidence demonstrating that expulsion and suspension are meted out differently for identical behaviors between white and black students, “ending social promotion” despite everything that the evidence tells us about the effects of retention) without ever giving a second’s thought to the children that their pet policies would negatively impact — seem like sociopaths. And as the PP who proudly proclaimed while advocating for many racially problematic policies that they are “glad white people are done apologizing” demonstrates, it’s pretty clear where the posters on this board stand — screw the poor kids, I want my kid to have the best of everything.

Everyone wants better for their kids. That’s not the issue. School safety needs to be improved , that’s not the issue. Kids should be challenged, advocating for that is not the issue. What IS an issue is demanding those things and ignoring or — as DCUM posters love to do — denigrating poor kids while doing so (Google “thugs” and DCUM is you doubt this).

And no, I am the product of very troubled public schools (on par with the worst of DC) and the parent of DCPS K-12 kids, so sorry to disappoint, but I’m not PP’s stereotype of a hypocritical liberal.

Nowhere in any of the direct responses to you did anyone denigrate poor kids.

Everything above that you are saying - better academics, better safety, and I’ll add better consequences for behaviors ARE the issue in DCPS. Frankly it’s a sh*tshow. DCPS ignores meeting the needs of the higher performing kids and why you have parents frustrated and leaving the system completely.

As to the poor kids, how is that working out with no tracking, no suspensions, and socially promoting? Kids verbally abusing teachers, hitting teachers, fights every day, chaos daily affecting staff and other students and no one learning anything. Kids who do no work or miss a crazy amount of school who get passed along and graduate who can barely read or do math past 3rd grade level and do what after getting a useless HS diploma worth nothing? The truth of the matter is what DCPS is doing is not working.

You talk about ignoring poor kids. DCPS doesn’t do that but you know what they do well IS ignore the higher achieving kids. So families with options leave the system. And who is left behind and how is that working out for DCPS.

This. 100% this.

Seems to me the basic premise of the person to whom you reply is that only black people are allowed to demand better schools, advanced coursework and consequences for bad behavior. He types hundreds of words to say, "I don't necessarily disagree that changes need to be made, but since you are (presumed to be) white and UMC it is racist when you make these suggestions."

I’m the PP that you are talking about, and no, I’m not in any way making any kind of statement about what black parents can or should demand. As a white person, I’m not qualified to do that.

What I can do is read the history of court decisions related to how tracking was implemented as an explicitly segregationist tactic in DC and take that into account when suggesting DCPS policy (especially as someone who grew up tracked into gifted, all-white classes in recently desegregated schools without ever taking a placement test of any kind).

Likewise (unlike, apparently almost every other poster on DCUM), I’m able to read research on “social promotion” (or more accurately, the outcomes from grade retention) and realize that retention leads to higher drop out rates and higher incarceration for retained kids and MUCH WORSE OUTCOMES FOR HIGH ACHIEVING CLASSMATES OF RETAINED KIDS. Maybe if, unlike me, you grew up attending safe schools, you don’t realize the impact of having a bunch of angry 16 year olds in class with 14 year olds, but if you think about it you can figure it out.

Likewise, I can read the research on suspension/expulsion and realize that the “out of sight out of mind” solutions advocated by almost 100% of DCUM posters is extremely problematic. Again, as a white kid who got a slap on the wrist for behaviors black kids were suspended for, I’ve seen this first hand, over and over.

Here’s the thing —- poor kids deserve safe, distraction free schools too. And, according to educators, at even the very worst schools, like 10% of the kids make the environment terrible for the other 90%. So instead of focusing on the top performing kids (as DCUM posters do endlessly without bothering to read the research about how the policies they blindly advocate will hurt those kids) and advocating for hiding the rest of DCSP’s population away somewhere that their snowflakes don’t have to interact with them, it would be more helpful to give some real thought to policy solutions for handling the 10% of kids who are engaging in violence and criminal activity and essentially making schools unworkable for the majority of students.

But most DCUM posters don’t care — their policy solutions start and end with “out of sight out of mind” for ALL poor kids.

[Anonymous]

And one more thought — for a town as supposedly political as DC is, I’m shocked at the political cluelessness of DCUM posters.

They demand tracking, suspension/expulsion, and retaining kids, and they shout “DCPS is failing our kids!”

Guess what— DCPS is failing ALL kids. Your (and my) kids will be alive, not in jail and likely employed at 25. For many DCPS students, that’s not a given. Why are you shocked that DCPS doesn’t prioritize your demands at the expense of trying to help kids at risk of violence, incarceration, addiction, and poverty? Are you REALLY surprised by that?

If you want changes, figure out a way to advocate changes that help all DCPS students, not changes that are 100% associated with past segregation. I mean, how politically wavy do you have to be to realize that? Do you think in 1785 it would have been smart for the new US government to propose a tax on tea, even if that was objectively a good policy?

But DCUM parents make these demands without stopping to think about the political environment or taking a beat to listen to others in the system and what they want and need (which, by the way is mostly the same as what DCUM posters want, as evidenced by the popularity of charter schools).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:And one more thought — for a town as supposedly political as DC is, I’m shocked at the political cluelessness of DCUM posters.

They demand tracking, suspension/expulsion, and retaining kids, and they shout “DCPS is failing our kids!”

Guess what— DCPS is failing ALL kids. Your (and my) kids will be alive, not in jail and likely employed at 25. For many DCPS students, that’s not a given. Why are you shocked that DCPS doesn’t prioritize your demands at the expense of trying to help kids at risk of violence, incarceration, addiction, and poverty? Are you REALLY surprised by that?

If you want changes, figure out a way to advocate changes that help all DCPS students, not changes that are 100% associated with past segregation. I mean, how politically wavy do you have to be to realize that? Do you think in 1785 it would have been smart for the new US government to propose a tax on tea, even if that was objectively a good policy?

But DCUM parents make these demands without stopping to think about the political environment or taking a beat to listen to others in the system and what they want and need (which, by the way is mostly the same as what DCUM posters want, as evidenced by the popularity of charter schools).

It is not up to me to come up with solutions. I am not paid $400k and have a govt. paid car + chauffeur like our current chancellor. He and his team should be working on fixing the system. Instead they are failing to provide solutions for any kids - low and high performing kids are all losing out. It should not be a zero sum game. A system with the highest paid teachers in the nation should be able to serve a variety of kids effectively. Eliminating tracking has not helped the kids at the bottom. Successful outcomes for poor kids have not improved. Ballou and Anacostia high schools still have lousy scores and poor post secondary outcomes. There is an epidemic of crime in DC carried out by young teenagers. What exactly has been achieved by getting rid of suspensions and tracking? Wealthy kids will always have opportunities. The kids on the lowest rung are still a complete mess. The majority of kids in the middle have been hurt by the new lower DCPS standards. AA and Hispanic kids who want to go to school to learn and get a decent education are being robbed because the city only cares about the bottom 10% and no one else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The cynical view - I think this is a factor, though even the supporters of immerson programs try to deny it to others, as well as to themselves - if you have a program like this you (1) privilege those who can speak the language on one side in terms of difficulty of participation in the program, if not technically in terms of the DC lottery terms and (2) allow those who get comfortable with the program to create an in-culture; and (3) this is most important and most strenuously denied by the promoters - it allows the program to REJECT those who can't stick with the language program or NOT ALLOW ENTRY after "time frame X" by students outside the program. That means a language-focuse school gradually sheds students who can't hack it, and that tends to allow the program to be more exclusive and academic.

Most importantly, the students that schools (and parents) don't want are the homeless or near-homeless children of the uneducated and shiftless who are commonly behavior and academic problem children. Having a schooling requirement - the language - that requires more than just showing up at several stages: lottery, attendance, testing, year-to-year progress - functions to not allow these true loser students to continue to be in your kids' schools.

LOOK nobody knows how to deal with these kids and they make it hard for families to want to go to the "comprehensive" schools of last resort for their kids' schooling when they know disruptive losers will be their kids' fellow students.

But trying to keep your kids segregated from those kids is definitely part of the attraction of these language schools, the oddest of which probably remains this revived language of 1 country/10 million people that has no obvious use besides moving to Tel Aviv or passing your bar mitzvah.

SO, some people will deny what I'm talking about, but generally there's more truth in the BS I spewed above than they want to admit.

I don't personally have a problem with Sela or a Hebrew immersion in DC, and would send my kid there, but I think this poster is speaking some real truth about not just Sela, but the appeal of both charters and especially language immersion in DC. It's not the only reason these schools are in high demand, but it's absolutely a huge part of it, and people who deny it on it's face are being disingenuous.

But people don't like to admit this because most parents with kids at immersion charters in DC are progressives who pay lip service to equity and will talk up the equity programs at their school. But their children will never set foot in a public school in DC (whether DCPS or charter) with a large population of at risk and/or unhoused kids. And that's not an accident.

I’m a minority and there are a good percentage of minorities (black and Hispanic) at our Spanish immersion charter.

We wanted language immersion for our high performing kid because he needed more challenge in school. School comes easy for him especially in DC where there is no G & T. He is not gifted but scores very high on standardized testing.

Most parents in DC are liberals and very comfortable with diversity.

The reason why at risk kids don’t do well in language immersion is because they don’t have support. A generalization but true that the majority of them don’t do well academically and are below grade level in ELA. So why would you put them in language immersion when they are struggling with the basics and get 0 or 50% less ELA instruction?? Learning another language is a bonus but not necessary. Learning English is a necessity. If my kid was struggling in ELA, I would pull him out of immersion.

Language immersion schools are a niche. It’s not for everyone and why you have non-immersion schools. Parents looking at the immersion charters are looking not only at the language but also at the academic performing cohort.

Nothing you say disproves the PP's point though. You are actually proving the point.

You are a "minority" parent at an immersion school. But not at risk. And then you explain that at risk kids don't do well in immersion because immersion requires at-home support and at risk kids don't get it. So if you want a school that doesn't have a lot of at risk kids, it is conveniently easy to accomplish this with an immersion charter.

Also, you say that liberal parents in DC are "comfortable" with diversity. I'd argue that like and want diversity, but only a certain kind. Progressive parents in DC (and I am one) love a school with a lot of diversity in race, country of origin, religion sexuality, etc. All of that diversity contributes to their progressive bonafides. But the one area quality where progressives in DC actually prefer LESS diversity? Socioeconomics. That's why immersion charters are so desirable. Their kids will go to school with a high-SES but otherwise diverse cohort, satisfying their desire for diversity while avoiding the negative aspects of true diversity, where some kids simply need a LOT more resources in order to have anything close to resembling equitable access.

If you don't understand these dynamics in the DC charter/lottery system, I think you are being purposefully obtuse. And I say that as a parent whose kids have attended a socioeconomically diverse DCPS and a racially "diverse" charter (where most kids are from UMC families). Progressives in DC talk the talk but mostly do not walk the walk.

These are such basic talking points that have been repeated on this board for more than decade. Congrats on parroting what someone smarter than you said a long time ago.

Parents with high performing kids want rigor in academics that will meet their kids needs. DCPS doesn’t track with G & T, has awfully low standards, and socially promote.

So if SES tracks with academic performance, then hell yes, I want less at risk kids at the school and a higher performing peer group so more challenging curriculum can be taught instead of dumbing things down. And I have no problem saying to PP above or anyone else.

The lack of self awareness of these posters is amazing. PP is saying “I don’t care that DCPS is serving the people of DC who actually use the schools. I want programming that excludes those vulnerable people so that my kid can get what I want for them.”

PP, you are a sociopath and a horrible person. Please move away from DC.

Nope, not a sociopath at all. Until DCPS cares about ALL the kids in DC and provide appropriate education to meet All the kid’s needs and not just some, tons of families will do what they can to get what their kid needs.

But hey, feel free to send your kid to majority at risk schools. Get back to us when you kid attends Cardozo, Eastern, or whatever.

When you say “ I want less at risk kids at the school”, you sound like a sociopath. You are saying “I want the public school to affirmatively work to exclude poor and vulnerable people.” That shows a sociopathic lack of empathy for children who are in extremely difficult circumstances. That’s why I think you are a sociopath. Nothing you wrote changes that impression.

This is disingenuous and I think you know it. No one is saying "less at risk". What they are saying is schools need to be willing to offer programming for those at the top of a class. Since this is a zero sum game that probably means crowding out some at the bottom. Here, context matters. You seem to be suggesting that a school like Eastern with PARCC proficiency in the single digits should not be offering programming to kids who are proficient because that would crowd out kids who are. That would be different than a school with zero at-risk wanting to exclude any at-risk.

What is more problematic than your approach is that this seems to be how DCPS does in fact approach public education. You are also creating a false construct by asserting that anyone who wants advanced programming and for schools to cater to their own kids' needs "lacks empathy" for anyone else. By that faulty logic people who have IEPs who object to AP or honors classes "lack empathy", right?

“ I want less at risk kids at the school” Is literally a direct quotation from the post I was responding to.

Context means everything.

Here at risk is a proxy for poor performance. Poor performance in DCPS means dumbing down the curriculum which is the fault and failure of DCPS. So families want schools with less at risk kids due to academic performance and peer group not because of anything personal against the kids.

ALL schools have at risk kids, DCPS and charters. The difference is the percentages. The magic number is 20%. Anything more than that impacts resources for all students and impacts academics.

OP is one of those insufferable people who is arguing that any parent who want better academics so their kids needs can also be met lack any empathy and are sociopaths by wanting less at risk kids. She is exactly why the system will never change because she argues that those kids are the only ones DCPS should serve.

Schools with at-risk students receive additional funding for those students and if there is a "high concentration" of at-risk, they receive even more funding.

Are you really that naive that you think the funding is enough or that you don’t know about the massive corruption in DCPS, the boated central office or that they love to divert money to whatever BS new program of the year that is useless or whatever else.

Go talk to the principal and staff at these majority at risk schools if they have enough funding to support the kids. I mean they don’t even have enough damn toilet paper. Where exactly is all the money going?

No, not naive at all. I'm at one of the greater than 20% schools. Just not sure what you mean by anything more than 20% "impacts resources for all students." I agree that even though more resources are received, funding is not enough and is not always be deployed effectively.

When you have a budget that is unable to meet all your needs, then you have to prioritize what is more important to you and cut out funding for other things to divert to your top priority. So schools with a lot of high needs kids are going to try to divert money to mental health, social workers, school supplies (since families can’t buy or contribute) after school tutoring, or myriad of other things. What is cut out is any extras and enrichments or there is no money for such. These include art, music, languages, high quality field trips, after school enrichment clubs and sports, etc…

It’s not hard to see. Just look at the schools in NW and what they offer compared to schools in NE. Schools in NW actually get much less funding.

When you have high concentrations of lower income families, you also have much less involvement of families for things such as PTA, fundraising, room parents, volunteers at school, community building activities and events.

Lastly, there is always the equity issue in schools with majority lower SES schools. Big obstacle to implement anything that costs money even if it only costs $20. A typical example is buses for field trips. Not fair to families that can’t afford it and school doesn’t have money to subsidize extras. This is non-issue in schools with lower SES percentages of families. The PTA is able to fundraise and subsidize these families.

Above are just a few examples and far from all of the differences in resources at the school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The cynical view - I think this is a factor, though even the supporters of immerson programs try to deny it to others, as well as to themselves - if you have a program like this you (1) privilege those who can speak the language on one side in terms of difficulty of participation in the program, if not technically in terms of the DC lottery terms and (2) allow those who get comfortable with the program to create an in-culture; and (3) this is most important and most strenuously denied by the promoters - it allows the program to REJECT those who can't stick with the language program or NOT ALLOW ENTRY after "time frame X" by students outside the program. That means a language-focuse school gradually sheds students who can't hack it, and that tends to allow the program to be more exclusive and academic.

Most importantly, the students that schools (and parents) don't want are the homeless or near-homeless children of the uneducated and shiftless who are commonly behavior and academic problem children. Having a schooling requirement - the language - that requires more than just showing up at several stages: lottery, attendance, testing, year-to-year progress - functions to not allow these true loser students to continue to be in your kids' schools.

LOOK nobody knows how to deal with these kids and they make it hard for families to want to go to the "comprehensive" schools of last resort for their kids' schooling when they know disruptive losers will be their kids' fellow students.

But trying to keep your kids segregated from those kids is definitely part of the attraction of these language schools, the oddest of which probably remains this revived language of 1 country/10 million people that has no obvious use besides moving to Tel Aviv or passing your bar mitzvah.

SO, some people will deny what I'm talking about, but generally there's more truth in the BS I spewed above than they want to admit.

I don't personally have a problem with Sela or a Hebrew immersion in DC, and would send my kid there, but I think this poster is speaking some real truth about not just Sela, but the appeal of both charters and especially language immersion in DC. It's not the only reason these schools are in high demand, but it's absolutely a huge part of it, and people who deny it on it's face are being disingenuous.

But people don't like to admit this because most parents with kids at immersion charters in DC are progressives who pay lip service to equity and will talk up the equity programs at their school. But their children will never set foot in a public school in DC (whether DCPS or charter) with a large population of at risk and/or unhoused kids. And that's not an accident.

I’m a minority and there are a good percentage of minorities (black and Hispanic) at our Spanish immersion charter.

We wanted language immersion for our high performing kid because he needed more challenge in school. School comes easy for him especially in DC where there is no G & T. He is not gifted but scores very high on standardized testing.

Most parents in DC are liberals and very comfortable with diversity.

The reason why at risk kids don’t do well in language immersion is because they don’t have support. A generalization but true that the majority of them don’t do well academically and are below grade level in ELA. So why would you put them in language immersion when they are struggling with the basics and get 0 or 50% less ELA instruction?? Learning another language is a bonus but not necessary. Learning English is a necessity. If my kid was struggling in ELA, I would pull him out of immersion.

Language immersion schools are a niche. It’s not for everyone and why you have non-immersion schools. Parents looking at the immersion charters are looking not only at the language but also at the academic performing cohort.

Nothing you say disproves the PP's point though. You are actually proving the point.

You are a "minority" parent at an immersion school. But not at risk. And then you explain that at risk kids don't do well in immersion because immersion requires at-home support and at risk kids don't get it. So if you want a school that doesn't have a lot of at risk kids, it is conveniently easy to accomplish this with an immersion charter.

Also, you say that liberal parents in DC are "comfortable" with diversity. I'd argue that like and want diversity, but only a certain kind. Progressive parents in DC (and I am one) love a school with a lot of diversity in race, country of origin, religion sexuality, etc. All of that diversity contributes to their progressive bonafides. But the one area quality where progressives in DC actually prefer LESS diversity? Socioeconomics. That's why immersion charters are so desirable. Their kids will go to school with a high-SES but otherwise diverse cohort, satisfying their desire for diversity while avoiding the negative aspects of true diversity, where some kids simply need a LOT more resources in order to have anything close to resembling equitable access.

If you don't understand these dynamics in the DC charter/lottery system, I think you are being purposefully obtuse. And I say that as a parent whose kids have attended a socioeconomically diverse DCPS and a racially "diverse" charter (where most kids are from UMC families). Progressives in DC talk the talk but mostly do not walk the walk.

These are such basic talking points that have been repeated on this board for more than decade. Congrats on parroting what someone smarter than you said a long time ago.

Parents with high performing kids want rigor in academics that will meet their kids needs. DCPS doesn’t track with G & T, has awfully low standards, and socially promote.

So if SES tracks with academic performance, then hell yes, I want less at risk kids at the school and a higher performing peer group so more challenging curriculum can be taught instead of dumbing things down. And I have no problem saying to PP above or anyone else.

The lack of self awareness of these posters is amazing. PP is saying “I don’t care that DCPS is serving the people of DC who actually use the schools. I want programming that excludes those vulnerable people so that my kid can get what I want for them.”

PP, you are a sociopath and a horrible person. Please move away from DC.

Nope, not a sociopath at all. Until DCPS cares about ALL the kids in DC and provide appropriate education to meet All the kid’s needs and not just some, tons of families will do what they can to get what their kid needs.

But hey, feel free to send your kid to majority at risk schools. Get back to us when you kid attends Cardozo, Eastern, or whatever.

When you say “ I want less at risk kids at the school”, you sound like a sociopath. You are saying “I want the public school to affirmatively work to exclude poor and vulnerable people.” That shows a sociopathic lack of empathy for children who are in extremely difficult circumstances. That’s why I think you are a sociopath. Nothing you wrote changes that impression.

This is disingenuous and I think you know it. No one is saying "less at risk". What they are saying is schools need to be willing to offer programming for those at the top of a class. Since this is a zero sum game that probably means crowding out some at the bottom. Here, context matters. You seem to be suggesting that a school like Eastern with PARCC proficiency in the single digits should not be offering programming to kids who are proficient because that would crowd out kids who are. That would be different than a school with zero at-risk wanting to exclude any at-risk.

What is more problematic than your approach is that this seems to be how DCPS does in fact approach public education. You are also creating a false construct by asserting that anyone who wants advanced programming and for schools to cater to their own kids' needs "lacks empathy" for anyone else. By that faulty logic people who have IEPs who object to AP or honors classes "lack empathy", right?

“ I want less at risk kids at the school” Is literally a direct quotation from the post I was responding to.

Context means everything.

Here at risk is a proxy for poor performance. Poor performance in DCPS means dumbing down the curriculum which is the fault and failure of DCPS. So families want schools with less at risk kids due to academic performance and peer group not because of anything personal against the kids.

ALL schools have at risk kids, DCPS and charters. The difference is the percentages. The magic number is 20%. Anything more than that impacts resources for all students and impacts academics.

OP is one of those insufferable people who is arguing that any parent who want better academics so their kids needs can also be met lack any empathy and are sociopaths by wanting less at risk kids. She is exactly why the system will never change because she argues that those kids are the only ones DCPS should serve.

Schools with at-risk students receive additional funding for those students and if there is a "high concentration" of at-risk, they receive even more funding.

Are you really that naive that you think the funding is enough or that you don’t know about the massive corruption in DCPS, the boated central office or that they love to divert money to whatever BS new program of the year that is useless or whatever else.

Go talk to the principal and staff at these majority at risk schools if they have enough funding to support the kids. I mean they don’t even have enough damn toilet paper. Where exactly is all the money going?

No, not naive at all. I'm at one of the greater than 20% schools. Just not sure what you mean by anything more than 20% "impacts resources for all students." I agree that even though more resources are received, funding is not enough and is not always be deployed effectively.

When you have a budget that is unable to meet all your needs, then you have to prioritize what is more important to you and cut out funding for other things to divert to your top priority. So schools with a lot of high needs kids are going to try to divert money to mental health, social workers, school supplies (since families can’t buy or contribute) after school tutoring, or myriad of other things. What is cut out is any extras and enrichments or there is no money for such. These include art, music, languages, high quality field trips, after school enrichment clubs and sports, etc…

It’s not hard to see. Just look at the schools in NW and what they offer compared to schools in NE. Schools in NW actually get much less funding.

When you have high concentrations of lower income families, you also have much less involvement of families for things such as PTA, fundraising, room parents, volunteers at school, community building activities and events.

Lastly, there is always the equity issue in schools with majority lower SES schools. Big obstacle to implement anything that costs money even if it only costs $20. A typical example is buses for field trips. Not fair to families that can’t afford it and school doesn’t have money to subsidize extras. This is non-issue in schools with lower SES percentages of families. The PTA is able to fundraise and subsidize these families.

Above are just a few examples and far from all of the differences in resources at the school.

Appreciate the explanation and have seen what you describe but I've more often seen higher at-risk schools with clubs, field trips, multiple specialists, art, music, etc but the real difference is in the classroom. Specifically, in the classrooms of high at-risk schools, teachers are having to support students along such a large spectrum of academic needs that it can seem impossible to deliver for all kids. If 15 kids are 2 or more grade levels behind, 5 are near/on grade level and 1-2 are above grade level -- that's where the struggle is. There may be enough in funding for 1-2 social workers per school, stipends for clubs, aides and paraprofessionals, etc. but there isn't enough for two teachers per classroom so that all kids can be supported at their level. That is part of what's needed (that or tracking kids by ability which comes with its own set of problems). The other part is to reduce all the social services that schools are responsible for taking on so that schools can focus on being schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is all vaguely anti semitic. Are PPs against Yu Ying and Mundo Verde also? No? Just schools that teach Hebrew... hmmmmm....

Sure, way less people speak Hebrew. But isn't that for the parent to determine whether or not that matters to their family?

People are not against Spanish language immersion because hundreds of millions of people speak Spanish and it is the second most spoken language in this country. People are not against Yu Ying because a billion people speak Mandarin. 10 million people in the world speak Hebrew. And most of those people also speak English. That’s the critique. I would not assume it’s anti-semitism.

You didn't even read my whole post. Isn't it up to the parent to decide if they want their kid learning a language spoken by less people? Not up to you? You want your kid to learn Spanish? Great! Send your kid to Tyler or wherever. But stop railing against Sela like it's the problem with DC schools.

Signed, my kid isn't at any dual language school but think you all arguing about this need to invest this time in helping out at school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And one more thought — for a town as supposedly political as DC is, I’m shocked at the political cluelessness of DCUM posters.

They demand tracking, suspension/expulsion, and retaining kids, and they shout “DCPS is failing our kids!”

Guess what— DCPS is failing ALL kids. Your (and my) kids will be alive, not in jail and likely employed at 25. For many DCPS students, that’s not a given. Why are you shocked that DCPS doesn’t prioritize your demands at the expense of trying to help kids at risk of violence, incarceration, addiction, and poverty? Are you REALLY surprised by that?

If you want changes, figure out a way to advocate changes that help all DCPS students, not changes that are 100% associated with past segregation. I mean, how politically wavy do you have to be to realize that? Do you think in 1785 it would have been smart for the new US government to propose a tax on tea, even if that was objectively a good policy?

But DCUM parents make these demands without stopping to think about the political environment or taking a beat to listen to others in the system and what they want and need (which, by the way is mostly the same as what DCUM posters want, as evidenced by the popularity of charter schools).

It is not up to me to come up with solutions. I am not paid $400k and have a govt. paid car + chauffeur like our current chancellor. He and his team should be working on fixing the system. Instead they are failing to provide solutions for any kids - low and high performing kids are all losing out. It should not be a zero sum game. A system with the highest paid teachers in the nation should be able to serve a variety of kids effectively. Eliminating tracking has not helped the kids at the bottom. Successful outcomes for poor kids have not improved. Ballou and Anacostia high schools still have lousy scores and poor post secondary outcomes. There is an epidemic of crime in DC carried out by young teenagers. What exactly has been achieved by getting rid of suspensions and tracking? Wealthy kids will always have opportunities. The kids on the lowest rung are still a complete mess. The majority of kids in the middle have been hurt by the new lower DCPS standards. AA and Hispanic kids who want to go to school to learn and get a decent education are being robbed because the city only cares about the bottom 10% and no one else.

+100

[Anonymous]

There are many people in this area who value Hebrew, the history and the language.

The school has been around for a very long time. I know so many amazing people who attended and who work there. I would attend Sela if it wasn't far from my home. Great warm and welcoming spirit. I plan to travel to Israel, and I am African American. I would love to have a solid foundation of Hebrew. The language is beautiful!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is all vaguely anti semitic. Are PPs against Yu Ying and Mundo Verde also? No? Just schools that teach Hebrew... hmmmmm....

Sure, way less people speak Hebrew. But isn't that for the parent to determine whether or not that matters to their family?

People are not against Spanish language immersion because hundreds of millions of people speak Spanish and it is the second most spoken language in this country. People are not against Yu Ying because a billion people speak Mandarin. 10 million people in the world speak Hebrew. And most of those people also speak English. That’s the critique. I would not assume it’s anti-semitism.

You didn't even read my whole post. Isn't it up to the parent to decide if they want their kid learning a language spoken by less people? Not up to you? You want your kid to learn Spanish? Great! Send your kid to Tyler or wherever. But stop railing against Sela like it's the problem with DC schools.

Signed, my kid isn't at any dual language school but think you all arguing about this need to invest this time in helping out at school.

That is not the point.

The point is that 80% of the kids at Sela are below grade level in math and English, and being taught a niche language that has almost not practical value. Moreover, if the vast majority of Sela students are below-grade in English, I doubt that their Hebrew is so great either.

Maybe test scores are low at Sela because they are learning a second language? If so, then why does Sela have lower test scores than other immersion schools in DC that focus on Chinese and Spanish. The obvious answer is that the education at Sela is subpar.

Sela parents can gush all the want about the school but the facts speak for themselves.

אַתָּה לֺא צָרׅיךְ לׅצְעוֺק, דִּבְרֵי חֲכָמִים בְּנַחַת נִשְׁמָעִים.

[Anonymous]

What grade level does the school go up to?

[Anonymous]

They go thru 5th. And its the same story, different thread. Kids go there until PK4 or K - then they bounce to a school with a MS/HS feeder. So Sela will always be in this rinse/repeat.

I think they had a 5th grade class last year of 13 kids?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is all vaguely anti semitic. Are PPs against Yu Ying and Mundo Verde also? No? Just schools that teach Hebrew... hmmmmm....

Sure, way less people speak Hebrew. But isn't that for the parent to determine whether or not that matters to their family?

People are not against Spanish language immersion because hundreds of millions of people speak Spanish and it is the second most spoken language in this country. People are not against Yu Ying because a billion people speak Mandarin. 10 million people in the world speak Hebrew. And most of those people also speak English. That’s the critique. I would not assume it’s anti-semitism.

You didn't even read my whole post. Isn't it up to the parent to decide if they want their kid learning a language spoken by less people? Not up to you? You want your kid to learn Spanish? Great! Send your kid to Tyler or wherever. But stop railing against Sela like it's the problem with DC schools.

Signed, my kid isn't at any dual language school but think you all arguing about this need to invest this time in helping out at school.

That is not the point.

The point is that 80% of the kids at Sela are below grade level in math and English, and being taught a niche language that has almost not practical value. Moreover, if the vast majority of Sela students are below-grade in English, I doubt that their Hebrew is so great either.

Maybe test scores are low at Sela because they are learning a second language? If so, then why does Sela have lower test scores than other immersion schools in DC that focus on Chinese and Spanish. The obvious answer is that the education at Sela is subpar.

Sela parents can gush all the want about the school but the facts speak for themselves.

אַתָּה לֺא צָרׅיךְ לׅצְעוֺק, דִּבְרֵי חֲכָמִים בְּנַחַת נִשְׁמָעִים.

Where are you seeing 80%?

I am seeing 40% acceptable (so 60% below grade level, not 80) in the places I have looked?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is all vaguely anti semitic. Are PPs against Yu Ying and Mundo Verde also? No? Just schools that teach Hebrew... hmmmmm....

Sure, way less people speak Hebrew. But isn't that for the parent to determine whether or not that matters to their family?

People are not against Spanish language immersion because hundreds of millions of people speak Spanish and it is the second most spoken language in this country. People are not against Yu Ying because a billion people speak Mandarin. 10 million people in the world speak Hebrew. And most of those people also speak English. That’s the critique. I would not assume it’s anti-semitism.

You didn't even read my whole post. Isn't it up to the parent to decide if they want their kid learning a language spoken by less people? Not up to you? You want your kid to learn Spanish? Great! Send your kid to Tyler or wherever. But stop railing against Sela like it's the problem with DC schools.

Signed, my kid isn't at any dual language school but think you all arguing about this need to invest this time in helping out at school.

That is not the point.

The point is that 80% of the kids at Sela are below grade level in math and English, and being taught a niche language that has almost not practical value. Moreover, if the vast majority of Sela students are below-grade in English, I doubt that their Hebrew is so great either.

Maybe test scores are low at Sela because they are learning a second language? If so, then why does Sela have lower test scores than other immersion schools in DC that focus on Chinese and Spanish. The obvious answer is that the education at Sela is subpar.

Sela parents can gush all the want about the school but the facts speak for themselves.

אַתָּה לֺא צָרׅיךְ לׅצְעוֺק, דִּבְרֵי חֲכָמִים בְּנַחַת נִשְׁמָעִים.

Where are you seeing 80%?

I am seeing 40% acceptable (so 60% below grade level, not 80) in the places I have looked?

https://www.dcschoolreportcard.org/schools/174-0197/star-step-3?framework=es&disaggregation=at_risk&lang=en