AP 3 in a sea of 4/5s

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Teacher here. Some of my strongest students in my AP classes are terrible test takers. I’ve never considered a score to be a solid indicator of college readiness. I have 20 years of experience watching average test takers (but great students) move on to strong colleges and advanced degrees. I have a relative with two masters and a PhD (all from great colleges) and he bombed the SAT and the GRE.

My own child just scored a 2 on one of his exams. I’m not that upset, and neither is he. He’ll be prepared for college and that score isn’t going to keep him out.

Genuine Question: How can someone be a strong student and a "terrible test taker"? Part of being a strong student involves demonstrating mastery of the subject matter. If you bomb all the tests and quizzes, then how are they demonstrating mastery?

That's like saying, "I'm an incredible actor. I just have terrible stage fright and freeze up on stage." You can't be a great actor if you can't perform when the spotlight is on....

And if you're not good at taking tests due to emotional/mental needs, a strong student should be self-aware and ensure they have the appropriate accommodations to compensate for that?

I’m the teacher PP.

There are many, many ways to demonstrate content knowledge. Multiple choice questions and formatted essays aren’t the only way. I actually prefer choice and project-based assignments for that very reason. I can actually see what my students know, and not what they memorized. (… and I am a highly regarded teacher who takes assessment methods courses on my own time each summer.)

People take test prep sessions to learn the skills associated with taking a test… the strategy. I have also had mediocre students who are good at test strategy.

I don’t see a clear correlation between high test scores and high performance.

Maybe there's not a 1:1 correlation between high test scores and high performance, but there's no way they're totally uncorrelated.

And while it's nice that you favor project-based assignments, they come with their own tradeoffs and downsides.

What's your solution? Just get rid of the AP exams altogether because....you don't like them? Or you think they're unreliable barometers of student knowledge and success?

Project-based assessments are very subjective, which opens up all kinds of biases and inconsistencies so I don't see trading one for the other as really solving the problem.

You’re simply being hyperbolic. Did I suggest… or even remotely imply… that we should get rid of AP tests? No, I didn’t. They are one data point.

I’m not sure why it’s a threatening notion that there are educators (many of us) who don’t put all of our eggs in a high-stakes test basket.

I get more valuable data regarding my students’ progress from project based assessments. I’m able to get a better handle on an individual student’s strengths and setbacks this way. I spend a ton of time doing this. I suppose I can throw an old AP test their way, which would save me a ton of time. I wouldn’t be serving the students nearly as well, though.

I actually value learning, the joy of learning, and the retention of knowledge. I don’t value high-stakes multiple choice assessments as much. I don’t think of my students as scores.

I suspect you care a lot about scores. Have at it. They are a great way to get into colleges. Just know they aren’t the only way. I’ve taught over 3,200 students so far in my career. I’ve learned not to base a student’s success off a test score. Good thing, too, since many mediocre test takers went on to be tremendously successful.

You're painting me with the same hyperbolic brush you're accusing me of.

I never said tests were the only thing that mattered. But I do think they're an important part of the learning process and students who struggle or fail at them should not be brushed aside and just chalked up to "some kids don't test well."

That's the main point I was making, as that line of talk and thinking seems to be more prevalent among parents and teachers and I don't think it's healthy or helpful to kids. It gives kids an out and an excuse from getting better at tests because some educators, like yourself, give them a hall pass that maybe they're just not a good test taker.

We should be teaching kids to develop the self-awareness to figure out why they're doing poorly on the test and implement strategies and tactics to overcome the hurdles and obstacles that are preventing them from doing well on the tests. It's called developing resilience and it's severely lacking in students today.

Soft skills like resiliency can be taught through essay revisions, project feedback, etc. Self awareness doesn’t need to be merely linked to test taking skills.

I agree these traits are lacking in students. I disagree that objective multiple choice tests are the way to teach them (or remotely the best way).

You say this as if tests are the only way students get evaluated throughout a class. They aren't. Throughout the course of any given class, there's a mixture of the exact things you mention (essays, projects, classwork, homework, etc.), which yes, does include tests. So that's already happening, which means kids are being evaluated on more than just tests?

Or is it that you specifically think the AP Exam itself is what's broken, because it is a multiple choice test? If so, what would you replace it with?

Also, doesn't throwing out tests harm the kids who are good at them and work hard to succeed at them? Why is their success invalidated to validate those who are "bad test takers"?

There’s no point for us to argue. I don’t disagree with your claims above. I never claimed that the AP test is broken, nor did I claim that we don’t use multiple choice as one form of many assessments.

Nobody has invalidated high-scoring students’ success. Nobody. Saying somebody has suggests insecurity. I just refuse to invalidate students’ potential because of lower test scores. There’s no reason to assume students are doomed because of a 2 or 3 on an AP exam. These can still be remarkably strong students. I’ve known many. Many.

DCUM is very stats-driven, to the point of forgetting we are talking about children

I've been teaching AP classes for 15 years and I have known incredibly intelligent students who received 2s, but they are NEVER "strong" students because they almost all have terrible work habits. There is a difference. So, I would disagree with the teacher above. These students aren't doomed, but neither are the kids receiving 2s "remarkably strong students."

I’m the PP. Are you comfortable with that word “never”? I just spent the past couple of minutes thinking back through my many years of teaching AP and IB. I can think of a good number of students who scores 2-ish scores who went on to great universities, advanced degrees, and successful careers. None of this would be possible if they weren’t strong students. One of my lower IB scores went to a student who is among the top of her class in a challenging nursing program right now. She has a strong work ethic, a lot of intellectual curiosity, and proven performance in places other than AP/IB exams.

“Never” is way too absolute of a word. I challenge you to think back. You really can’t think of one strong student who performed poorly on an AP exam? Really? And they all have poor work habits? Really?

No, I can't. My pass rates are high, and the only kids getting twos in my classes have poor work habits (or just don't get it - another disqualifier for being a "strong student.") Again, kids can progress and develop good habits and go on to do well in college. But in my experience, unless someone is deathly ill on test day, strong students who have worked during the year are not getting twos.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Teacher here. Some of my strongest students in my AP classes are terrible test takers. I’ve never considered a score to be a solid indicator of college readiness. I have 20 years of experience watching average test takers (but great students) move on to strong colleges and advanced degrees. I have a relative with two masters and a PhD (all from great colleges) and he bombed the SAT and the GRE.

My own child just scored a 2 on one of his exams. I’m not that upset, and neither is he. He’ll be prepared for college and that score isn’t going to keep him out.

Shut yo fool

I’m the PP. Help me out here. Is this suppose to be an insult?

I don’t understand why people are fighting this. You can be successful without doing well on AP exams. (We all acknowledge there are plenty of students who don’t even attempt AP, correct? Are they also doomed to failure as adults?)

Acknowledging AP isn’t the only path to success doesn’t detract from the success of those who do well on these exams.

I don’t understand this anger either. Maybe PP is threatened because his/her kid got a 5 and doesn’t want to muddy the waters. I appreciate your perspective. I agree that performance on a standardized test and mastery of the subject matter are not mutually exclusive.

You keep saying "standardized test" like it is some lesser form of knowledge. Are you actually familiar with AP exams? I think it is difficult to have "mastery" of the subject matter and fail one of these.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Did your kid submit a score of 3 to colleges?

You only submit it if the school gives credit for a 3. Otherwise they don't care.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did your kid submit a score of 3 to colleges?

Can you pick and choose which scores to send? Do they see scores you don't send?

You self report what you want on the common app (mine did not report any scores), and submit individual scores to the school you actually go to to get credit if they give credit for your score or placement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Teacher here. Some of my strongest students in my AP classes are terrible test takers. I’ve never considered a score to be a solid indicator of college readiness. I have 20 years of experience watching average test takers (but great students) move on to strong colleges and advanced degrees. I have a relative with two masters and a PhD (all from great colleges) and he bombed the SAT and the GRE.

My own child just scored a 2 on one of his exams. I’m not that upset, and neither is he. He’ll be prepared for college and that score isn’t going to keep him out.

Shut yo fool

I’m the PP. Help me out here. Is this suppose to be an insult?

I don’t understand why people are fighting this. You can be successful without doing well on AP exams. (We all acknowledge there are plenty of students who don’t even attempt AP, correct? Are they also doomed to failure as adults?)

Acknowledging AP isn’t the only path to success doesn’t detract from the success of those who do well on these exams.

I don’t understand this anger either. Maybe PP is threatened because his/her kid got a 5 and doesn’t want to muddy the waters. I appreciate your perspective. I agree that performance on a standardized test and mastery of the subject matter are not mutually exclusive.

You keep saying "standardized test" like it is some lesser form of knowledge. Are you actually familiar with AP exams? I think it is difficult to have "mastery" of the subject matter and fail one of these.

That is completely untrue. For example, some kids can research and write well when given time, and can talk about thing, but cannot sit and fill out a timed bubble test and keep it together.

[Anonymous]

OP, her friends might be lying. Just saying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Teacher here. Some of my strongest students in my AP classes are terrible test takers. I’ve never considered a score to be a solid indicator of college readiness. I have 20 years of experience watching average test takers (but great students) move on to strong colleges and advanced degrees. I have a relative with two masters and a PhD (all from great colleges) and he bombed the SAT and the GRE.

My own child just scored a 2 on one of his exams. I’m not that upset, and neither is he. He’ll be prepared for college and that score isn’t going to keep him out.

Genuine Question: How can someone be a strong student and a "terrible test taker"? Part of being a strong student involves demonstrating mastery of the subject matter. If you bomb all the tests and quizzes, then how are they demonstrating mastery?

That's like saying, "I'm an incredible actor. I just have terrible stage fright and freeze up on stage." You can't be a great actor if you can't perform when the spotlight is on....

And if you're not good at taking tests due to emotional/mental needs, a strong student should be self-aware and ensure they have the appropriate accommodations to compensate for that?

I’m the teacher PP.

There are many, many ways to demonstrate content knowledge. Multiple choice questions and formatted essays aren’t the only way. I actually prefer choice and project-based assignments for that very reason. I can actually see what my students know, and not what they memorized. (… and I am a highly regarded teacher who takes assessment methods courses on my own time each summer.)

People take test prep sessions to learn the skills associated with taking a test… the strategy. I have also had mediocre students who are good at test strategy.

I don’t see a clear correlation between high test scores and high performance.

Maybe there's not a 1:1 correlation between high test scores and high performance, but there's no way they're totally uncorrelated.

And while it's nice that you favor project-based assignments, they come with their own tradeoffs and downsides.

What's your solution? Just get rid of the AP exams altogether because....you don't like them? Or you think they're unreliable barometers of student knowledge and success?

Project-based assessments are very subjective, which opens up all kinds of biases and inconsistencies so I don't see trading one for the other as really solving the problem.

You’re simply being hyperbolic. Did I suggest… or even remotely imply… that we should get rid of AP tests? No, I didn’t. They are one data point.

I’m not sure why it’s a threatening notion that there are educators (many of us) who don’t put all of our eggs in a high-stakes test basket.

I get more valuable data regarding my students’ progress from project based assessments. I’m able to get a better handle on an individual student’s strengths and setbacks this way. I spend a ton of time doing this. I suppose I can throw an old AP test their way, which would save me a ton of time. I wouldn’t be serving the students nearly as well, though.

I actually value learning, the joy of learning, and the retention of knowledge. I don’t value high-stakes multiple choice assessments as much. I don’t think of my students as scores.

I suspect you care a lot about scores. Have at it. They are a great way to get into colleges. Just know they aren’t the only way. I’ve taught over 3,200 students so far in my career. I’ve learned not to base a student’s success off a test score. Good thing, too, since many mediocre test takers went on to be tremendously successful.

You're painting me with the same hyperbolic brush you're accusing me of.

I never said tests were the only thing that mattered. But I do think they're an important part of the learning process and students who struggle or fail at them should not be brushed aside and just chalked up to "some kids don't test well."

That's the main point I was making, as that line of talk and thinking seems to be more prevalent among parents and teachers and I don't think it's healthy or helpful to kids. It gives kids an out and an excuse from getting better at tests because some educators, like yourself, give them a hall pass that maybe they're just not a good test taker.

We should be teaching kids to develop the self-awareness to figure out why they're doing poorly on the test and implement strategies and tactics to overcome the hurdles and obstacles that are preventing them from doing well on the tests. It's called developing resilience and it's severely lacking in students today.

Soft skills like resiliency can be taught through essay revisions, project feedback, etc. Self awareness doesn’t need to be merely linked to test taking skills.

I agree these traits are lacking in students. I disagree that objective multiple choice tests are the way to teach them (or remotely the best way).

You say this as if tests are the only way students get evaluated throughout a class. They aren't. Throughout the course of any given class, there's a mixture of the exact things you mention (essays, projects, classwork, homework, etc.), which yes, does include tests. So that's already happening, which means kids are being evaluated on more than just tests?

Or is it that you specifically think the AP Exam itself is what's broken, because it is a multiple choice test? If so, what would you replace it with?

Also, doesn't throwing out tests harm the kids who are good at them and work hard to succeed at them? Why is their success invalidated to validate those who are "bad test takers"?

There’s no point for us to argue. I don’t disagree with your claims above. I never claimed that the AP test is broken, nor did I claim that we don’t use multiple choice as one form of many assessments.

Nobody has invalidated high-scoring students’ success. Nobody. Saying somebody has suggests insecurity. I just refuse to invalidate students’ potential because of lower test scores. There’s no reason to assume students are doomed because of a 2 or 3 on an AP exam. These can still be remarkably strong students. I’ve known many. Many.

DCUM is very stats-driven, to the point of forgetting we are talking about children

I've been teaching AP classes for 15 years and I have known incredibly intelligent students who received 2s, but they are NEVER "strong" students because they almost all have terrible work habits. There is a difference. So, I would disagree with the teacher above. These students aren't doomed, but neither are the kids receiving 2s "remarkably strong students."

I’m the PP. Are you comfortable with that word “never”? I just spent the past couple of minutes thinking back through my many years of teaching AP and IB. I can think of a good number of students who scores 2-ish scores who went on to great universities, advanced degrees, and successful careers. None of this would be possible if they weren’t strong students. One of my lower IB scores went to a student who is among the top of her class in a challenging nursing program right now. She has a strong work ethic, a lot of intellectual curiosity, and proven performance in places other than AP/IB exams.

“Never” is way too absolute of a word. I challenge you to think back. You really can’t think of one strong student who performed poorly on an AP exam? Really? And they all have poor work habits? Really?

No, I can't. My pass rates are high, and the only kids getting twos in my classes have poor work habits (or just don't get it - another disqualifier for being a "strong student.") Again, kids can progress and develop good habits and go on to do well in college. But in my experience, unless someone is deathly ill on test day, strong students who have worked during the year are not getting twos.

Congrats on the high scores. Sincerely. I work in a school in which students come to me 3-5 years behind, even in an AP course.

I can’t accept your generalization. It assumes there are no other variables that may block achievement on tests. My experience says otherwise.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My DD is a rising junior at an MCPS school and I could have written your post word for word. No encouraging words to say, only that I sympathize. I wonder about her college readiness as well.

I know they're doing such a terrible job raising our children for us.

[Anonymous]

The 2023 AP US Government and Politics scores: 5: 13%; 4: 11%; 3: 25%; 2: 24%; 1: 27%. (Source: https://twitter.com/AP_Trevor/status/1674092685378846730?s=20).

Scoring a 3 is not at all unusual. Hope this helps!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The 2023 AP US Government and Politics scores: 5: 13%; 4: 11%; 3: 25%; 2: 24%; 1: 27%. (Source: https://twitter.com/AP_Trevor/status/1674092685378846730?s=20).

Scoring a 3 is not at all unusual. Hope this helps!

This is actually really helpful. thank you

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Teacher here. Some of my strongest students in my AP classes are terrible test takers. I’ve never considered a score to be a solid indicator of college readiness. I have 20 years of experience watching average test takers (but great students) move on to strong colleges and advanced degrees. I have a relative with two masters and a PhD (all from great colleges) and he bombed the SAT and the GRE.

My own child just scored a 2 on one of his exams. I’m not that upset, and neither is he. He’ll be prepared for college and that score isn’t going to keep him out.

Genuine Question: How can someone be a strong student and a "terrible test taker"? Part of being a strong student involves demonstrating mastery of the subject matter. If you bomb all the tests and quizzes, then how are they demonstrating mastery?

That's like saying, "I'm an incredible actor. I just have terrible stage fright and freeze up on stage." You can't be a great actor if you can't perform when the spotlight is on....

And if you're not good at taking tests due to emotional/mental needs, a strong student should be self-aware and ensure they have the appropriate accommodations to compensate for that?

I’m the teacher PP.

There are many, many ways to demonstrate content knowledge. Multiple choice questions and formatted essays aren’t the only way. I actually prefer choice and project-based assignments for that very reason. I can actually see what my students know, and not what they memorized. (… and I am a highly regarded teacher who takes assessment methods courses on my own time each summer.)

People take test prep sessions to learn the skills associated with taking a test… the strategy. I have also had mediocre students who are good at test strategy.

I don’t see a clear correlation between high test scores and high performance.

Maybe there's not a 1:1 correlation between high test scores and high performance, but there's no way they're totally uncorrelated.

And while it's nice that you favor project-based assignments, they come with their own tradeoffs and downsides.

What's your solution? Just get rid of the AP exams altogether because....you don't like them? Or you think they're unreliable barometers of student knowledge and success?

Project-based assessments are very subjective, which opens up all kinds of biases and inconsistencies so I don't see trading one for the other as really solving the problem.

You’re simply being hyperbolic. Did I suggest… or even remotely imply… that we should get rid of AP tests? No, I didn’t. They are one data point.

I’m not sure why it’s a threatening notion that there are educators (many of us) who don’t put all of our eggs in a high-stakes test basket.

I get more valuable data regarding my students’ progress from project based assessments. I’m able to get a better handle on an individual student’s strengths and setbacks this way. I spend a ton of time doing this. I suppose I can throw an old AP test their way, which would save me a ton of time. I wouldn’t be serving the students nearly as well, though.

I actually value learning, the joy of learning, and the retention of knowledge. I don’t value high-stakes multiple choice assessments as much. I don’t think of my students as scores.

I suspect you care a lot about scores. Have at it. They are a great way to get into colleges. Just know they aren’t the only way. I’ve taught over 3,200 students so far in my career. I’ve learned not to base a student’s success off a test score. Good thing, too, since many mediocre test takers went on to be tremendously successful.

You're painting me with the same hyperbolic brush you're accusing me of.

I never said tests were the only thing that mattered. But I do think they're an important part of the learning process and students who struggle or fail at them should not be brushed aside and just chalked up to "some kids don't test well."

That's the main point I was making, as that line of talk and thinking seems to be more prevalent among parents and teachers and I don't think it's healthy or helpful to kids. It gives kids an out and an excuse from getting better at tests because some educators, like yourself, give them a hall pass that maybe they're just not a good test taker.

We should be teaching kids to develop the self-awareness to figure out why they're doing poorly on the test and implement strategies and tactics to overcome the hurdles and obstacles that are preventing them from doing well on the tests. It's called developing resilience and it's severely lacking in students today.

Soft skills like resiliency can be taught through essay revisions, project feedback, etc. Self awareness doesn’t need to be merely linked to test taking skills.

I agree these traits are lacking in students. I disagree that objective multiple choice tests are the way to teach them (or remotely the best way).

You say this as if tests are the only way students get evaluated throughout a class. They aren't. Throughout the course of any given class, there's a mixture of the exact things you mention (essays, projects, classwork, homework, etc.), which yes, does include tests. So that's already happening, which means kids are being evaluated on more than just tests?

Or is it that you specifically think the AP Exam itself is what's broken, because it is a multiple choice test? If so, what would you replace it with?

Also, doesn't throwing out tests harm the kids who are good at them and work hard to succeed at them? Why is their success invalidated to validate those who are "bad test takers"?

There’s no point for us to argue. I don’t disagree with your claims above. I never claimed that the AP test is broken, nor did I claim that we don’t use multiple choice as one form of many assessments.

Nobody has invalidated high-scoring students’ success. Nobody. Saying somebody has suggests insecurity. I just refuse to invalidate students’ potential because of lower test scores. There’s no reason to assume students are doomed because of a 2 or 3 on an AP exam. These can still be remarkably strong students. I’ve known many. Many.

DCUM is very stats-driven, to the point of forgetting we are talking about children

I've been teaching AP classes for 15 years and I have known incredibly intelligent students who received 2s, but they are NEVER "strong" students because they almost all have terrible work habits. There is a difference. So, I would disagree with the teacher above. These students aren't doomed, but neither are the kids receiving 2s "remarkably strong students."

I’m the PP. Are you comfortable with that word “never”? I just spent the past couple of minutes thinking back through my many years of teaching AP and IB. I can think of a good number of students who scores 2-ish scores who went on to great universities, advanced degrees, and successful careers. None of this would be possible if they weren’t strong students. One of my lower IB scores went to a student who is among the top of her class in a challenging nursing program right now. She has a strong work ethic, a lot of intellectual curiosity, and proven performance in places other than AP/IB exams.

“Never” is way too absolute of a word. I challenge you to think back. You really can’t think of one strong student who performed poorly on an AP exam? Really? And they all have poor work habits? Really?

No, I can't. My pass rates are high, and the only kids getting twos in my classes have poor work habits (or just don't get it - another disqualifier for being a "strong student.") Again, kids can progress and develop good habits and go on to do well in college. But in my experience, unless someone is deathly ill on test day, strong students who have worked during the year are not getting twos.

DP.. DC got a two on one of the AP tests. They had an A/B in the class all year, did all the assignments, went to class, studied for the AP test.

Granted, the way DC studied was not the most conducive to retaining information, however, IMO, grade inflation, and teachers not providing good feedback on assignments and tests give the students a false sense of competency in the subject.

My older DC had this teacher a couple of years ago, and said that this teacher was awful. Not only did the teacher not know the material well enough to teach it, but they provided almost no feedback.

So, teacher, I hope that you provide better feedback to your students so that they know what they need to work on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Teacher here. Some of my strongest students in my AP classes are terrible test takers. I’ve never considered a score to be a solid indicator of college readiness. I have 20 years of experience watching average test takers (but great students) move on to strong colleges and advanced degrees. I have a relative with two masters and a PhD (all from great colleges) and he bombed the SAT and the GRE.

My own child just scored a 2 on one of his exams. I’m not that upset, and neither is he. He’ll be prepared for college and that score isn’t going to keep him out.

Genuine Question: How can someone be a strong student and a "terrible test taker"? Part of being a strong student involves demonstrating mastery of the subject matter. If you bomb all the tests and quizzes, then how are they demonstrating mastery?

That's like saying, "I'm an incredible actor. I just have terrible stage fright and freeze up on stage." You can't be a great actor if you can't perform when the spotlight is on....

And if you're not good at taking tests due to emotional/mental needs, a strong student should be self-aware and ensure they have the appropriate accommodations to compensate for that?

I’m the teacher PP.

There are many, many ways to demonstrate content knowledge. Multiple choice questions and formatted essays aren’t the only way. I actually prefer choice and project-based assignments for that very reason. I can actually see what my students know, and not what they memorized. (… and I am a highly regarded teacher who takes assessment methods courses on my own time each summer.)

People take test prep sessions to learn the skills associated with taking a test… the strategy. I have also had mediocre students who are good at test strategy.

I don’t see a clear correlation between high test scores and high performance.

Maybe there's not a 1:1 correlation between high test scores and high performance, but there's no way they're totally uncorrelated.

And while it's nice that you favor project-based assignments, they come with their own tradeoffs and downsides.

What's your solution? Just get rid of the AP exams altogether because....you don't like them? Or you think they're unreliable barometers of student knowledge and success?

Project-based assessments are very subjective, which opens up all kinds of biases and inconsistencies so I don't see trading one for the other as really solving the problem.

You’re simply being hyperbolic. Did I suggest… or even remotely imply… that we should get rid of AP tests? No, I didn’t. They are one data point.

I’m not sure why it’s a threatening notion that there are educators (many of us) who don’t put all of our eggs in a high-stakes test basket.

I get more valuable data regarding my students’ progress from project based assessments. I’m able to get a better handle on an individual student’s strengths and setbacks this way. I spend a ton of time doing this. I suppose I can throw an old AP test their way, which would save me a ton of time. I wouldn’t be serving the students nearly as well, though.

I actually value learning, the joy of learning, and the retention of knowledge. I don’t value high-stakes multiple choice assessments as much. I don’t think of my students as scores.

I suspect you care a lot about scores. Have at it. They are a great way to get into colleges. Just know they aren’t the only way. I’ve taught over 3,200 students so far in my career. I’ve learned not to base a student’s success off a test score. Good thing, too, since many mediocre test takers went on to be tremendously successful.

You're painting me with the same hyperbolic brush you're accusing me of.

I never said tests were the only thing that mattered. But I do think they're an important part of the learning process and students who struggle or fail at them should not be brushed aside and just chalked up to "some kids don't test well."

That's the main point I was making, as that line of talk and thinking seems to be more prevalent among parents and teachers and I don't think it's healthy or helpful to kids. It gives kids an out and an excuse from getting better at tests because some educators, like yourself, give them a hall pass that maybe they're just not a good test taker.

We should be teaching kids to develop the self-awareness to figure out why they're doing poorly on the test and implement strategies and tactics to overcome the hurdles and obstacles that are preventing them from doing well on the tests. It's called developing resilience and it's severely lacking in students today.

Soft skills like resiliency can be taught through essay revisions, project feedback, etc. Self awareness doesn’t need to be merely linked to test taking skills.

I agree these traits are lacking in students. I disagree that objective multiple choice tests are the way to teach them (or remotely the best way).

You say this as if tests are the only way students get evaluated throughout a class. They aren't. Throughout the course of any given class, there's a mixture of the exact things you mention (essays, projects, classwork, homework, etc.), which yes, does include tests. So that's already happening, which means kids are being evaluated on more than just tests?

Or is it that you specifically think the AP Exam itself is what's broken, because it is a multiple choice test? If so, what would you replace it with?

Also, doesn't throwing out tests harm the kids who are good at them and work hard to succeed at them? Why is their success invalidated to validate those who are "bad test takers"?

There’s no point for us to argue. I don’t disagree with your claims above. I never claimed that the AP test is broken, nor did I claim that we don’t use multiple choice as one form of many assessments.

Nobody has invalidated high-scoring students’ success. Nobody. Saying somebody has suggests insecurity. I just refuse to invalidate students’ potential because of lower test scores. There’s no reason to assume students are doomed because of a 2 or 3 on an AP exam. These can still be remarkably strong students. I’ve known many. Many.

DCUM is very stats-driven, to the point of forgetting we are talking about children

I've been teaching AP classes for 15 years and I have known incredibly intelligent students who received 2s, but they are NEVER "strong" students because they almost all have terrible work habits. There is a difference. So, I would disagree with the teacher above. These students aren't doomed, but neither are the kids receiving 2s "remarkably strong students."

I’m the PP. Are you comfortable with that word “never”? I just spent the past couple of minutes thinking back through my many years of teaching AP and IB. I can think of a good number of students who scores 2-ish scores who went on to great universities, advanced degrees, and successful careers. None of this would be possible if they weren’t strong students. One of my lower IB scores went to a student who is among the top of her class in a challenging nursing program right now. She has a strong work ethic, a lot of intellectual curiosity, and proven performance in places other than AP/IB exams.

“Never” is way too absolute of a word. I challenge you to think back. You really can’t think of one strong student who performed poorly on an AP exam? Really? And they all have poor work habits? Really?

No, I can't. My pass rates are high, and the only kids getting twos in my classes have poor work habits (or just don't get it - another disqualifier for being a "strong student.") Again, kids can progress and develop good habits and go on to do well in college. But in my experience, unless someone is deathly ill on test day, strong students who have worked during the year are not getting twos.

DP.. DC got a two on one of the AP tests. They had an A/B in the class all year, did all the assignments, went to class, studied for the AP test.

Granted, the way DC studied was not the most conducive to retaining information, however, IMO, grade inflation, and teachers not providing good feedback on assignments and tests give the students a false sense of competency in the subject.

My older DC had this teacher a couple of years ago, and said that this teacher was awful. Not only did the teacher not know the material well enough to teach it, but they provided almost no feedback.

So, teacher, I hope that you provide better feedback to your students so that they know what they need to work on.

It's exam technique they need to spend a little more time on.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Teacher here. Some of my strongest students in my AP classes are terrible test takers. I’ve never considered a score to be a solid indicator of college readiness. I have 20 years of experience watching average test takers (but great students) move on to strong colleges and advanced degrees. I have a relative with two masters and a PhD (all from great colleges) and he bombed the SAT and the GRE.

My own child just scored a 2 on one of his exams. I’m not that upset, and neither is he. He’ll be prepared for college and that score isn’t going to keep him out.

Genuine Question: How can someone be a strong student and a "terrible test taker"? Part of being a strong student involves demonstrating mastery of the subject matter. If you bomb all the tests and quizzes, then how are they demonstrating mastery?

That's like saying, "I'm an incredible actor. I just have terrible stage fright and freeze up on stage." You can't be a great actor if you can't perform when the spotlight is on....

And if you're not good at taking tests due to emotional/mental needs, a strong student should be self-aware and ensure they have the appropriate accommodations to compensate for that?

I’m the teacher PP.

There are many, many ways to demonstrate content knowledge. Multiple choice questions and formatted essays aren’t the only way. I actually prefer choice and project-based assignments for that very reason. I can actually see what my students know, and not what they memorized. (… and I am a highly regarded teacher who takes assessment methods courses on my own time each summer.)

People take test prep sessions to learn the skills associated with taking a test… the strategy. I have also had mediocre students who are good at test strategy.

I don’t see a clear correlation between high test scores and high performance.

Maybe there's not a 1:1 correlation between high test scores and high performance, but there's no way they're totally uncorrelated.

And while it's nice that you favor project-based assignments, they come with their own tradeoffs and downsides.

What's your solution? Just get rid of the AP exams altogether because....you don't like them? Or you think they're unreliable barometers of student knowledge and success?

Project-based assessments are very subjective, which opens up all kinds of biases and inconsistencies so I don't see trading one for the other as really solving the problem.

You’re simply being hyperbolic. Did I suggest… or even remotely imply… that we should get rid of AP tests? No, I didn’t. They are one data point.

I’m not sure why it’s a threatening notion that there are educators (many of us) who don’t put all of our eggs in a high-stakes test basket.

I get more valuable data regarding my students’ progress from project based assessments. I’m able to get a better handle on an individual student’s strengths and setbacks this way. I spend a ton of time doing this. I suppose I can throw an old AP test their way, which would save me a ton of time. I wouldn’t be serving the students nearly as well, though.

I actually value learning, the joy of learning, and the retention of knowledge. I don’t value high-stakes multiple choice assessments as much. I don’t think of my students as scores.

I suspect you care a lot about scores. Have at it. They are a great way to get into colleges. Just know they aren’t the only way. I’ve taught over 3,200 students so far in my career. I’ve learned not to base a student’s success off a test score. Good thing, too, since many mediocre test takers went on to be tremendously successful.

You're painting me with the same hyperbolic brush you're accusing me of.

I never said tests were the only thing that mattered. But I do think they're an important part of the learning process and students who struggle or fail at them should not be brushed aside and just chalked up to "some kids don't test well."

That's the main point I was making, as that line of talk and thinking seems to be more prevalent among parents and teachers and I don't think it's healthy or helpful to kids. It gives kids an out and an excuse from getting better at tests because some educators, like yourself, give them a hall pass that maybe they're just not a good test taker.

We should be teaching kids to develop the self-awareness to figure out why they're doing poorly on the test and implement strategies and tactics to overcome the hurdles and obstacles that are preventing them from doing well on the tests. It's called developing resilience and it's severely lacking in students today.

Soft skills like resiliency can be taught through essay revisions, project feedback, etc. Self awareness doesn’t need to be merely linked to test taking skills.

I agree these traits are lacking in students. I disagree that objective multiple choice tests are the way to teach them (or remotely the best way).

You say this as if tests are the only way students get evaluated throughout a class. They aren't. Throughout the course of any given class, there's a mixture of the exact things you mention (essays, projects, classwork, homework, etc.), which yes, does include tests. So that's already happening, which means kids are being evaluated on more than just tests?

Or is it that you specifically think the AP Exam itself is what's broken, because it is a multiple choice test? If so, what would you replace it with?

Also, doesn't throwing out tests harm the kids who are good at them and work hard to succeed at them? Why is their success invalidated to validate those who are "bad test takers"?

There’s no point for us to argue. I don’t disagree with your claims above. I never claimed that the AP test is broken, nor did I claim that we don’t use multiple choice as one form of many assessments.

Nobody has invalidated high-scoring students’ success. Nobody. Saying somebody has suggests insecurity. I just refuse to invalidate students’ potential because of lower test scores. There’s no reason to assume students are doomed because of a 2 or 3 on an AP exam. These can still be remarkably strong students. I’ve known many. Many.

DCUM is very stats-driven, to the point of forgetting we are talking about children

I've been teaching AP classes for 15 years and I have known incredibly intelligent students who received 2s, but they are NEVER "strong" students because they almost all have terrible work habits. There is a difference. So, I would disagree with the teacher above. These students aren't doomed, but neither are the kids receiving 2s "remarkably strong students."

I’m the PP. Are you comfortable with that word “never”? I just spent the past couple of minutes thinking back through my many years of teaching AP and IB. I can think of a good number of students who scores 2-ish scores who went on to great universities, advanced degrees, and successful careers. None of this would be possible if they weren’t strong students. One of my lower IB scores went to a student who is among the top of her class in a challenging nursing program right now. She has a strong work ethic, a lot of intellectual curiosity, and proven performance in places other than AP/IB exams.

“Never” is way too absolute of a word. I challenge you to think back. You really can’t think of one strong student who performed poorly on an AP exam? Really? And they all have poor work habits? Really?

No, I can't. My pass rates are high, and the only kids getting twos in my classes have poor work habits (or just don't get it - another disqualifier for being a "strong student.") Again, kids can progress and develop good habits and go on to do well in college. But in my experience, unless someone is deathly ill on test day, strong students who have worked during the year are not getting twos.

DP.. DC got a two on one of the AP tests. They had an A/B in the class all year, did all the assignments, went to class, studied for the AP test.

Granted, the way DC studied was not the most conducive to retaining information, however, IMO, grade inflation, and teachers not providing good feedback on assignments and tests give the students a false sense of competency in the subject.

My older DC had this teacher a couple of years ago, and said that this teacher was awful. Not only did the teacher not know the material well enough to teach it, but they provided almost no feedback.

So, teacher, I hope that you provide better feedback to your students so that they know what they need to work on.

It's exam technique they need to spend a little more time on.

They took the practice exam and went through the AP book. Maybe teachers need to spend a little more time on providing feedback on assignments.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Teacher here. Some of my strongest students in my AP classes are terrible test takers. I’ve never considered a score to be a solid indicator of college readiness. I have 20 years of experience watching average test takers (but great students) move on to strong colleges and advanced degrees. I have a relative with two masters and a PhD (all from great colleges) and he bombed the SAT and the GRE.

My own child just scored a 2 on one of his exams. I’m not that upset, and neither is he. He’ll be prepared for college and that score isn’t going to keep him out.

Genuine Question: How can someone be a strong student and a "terrible test taker"? Part of being a strong student involves demonstrating mastery of the subject matter. If you bomb all the tests and quizzes, then how are they demonstrating mastery?

That's like saying, "I'm an incredible actor. I just have terrible stage fright and freeze up on stage." You can't be a great actor if you can't perform when the spotlight is on....

And if you're not good at taking tests due to emotional/mental needs, a strong student should be self-aware and ensure they have the appropriate accommodations to compensate for that?

I’m the teacher PP.

There are many, many ways to demonstrate content knowledge. Multiple choice questions and formatted essays aren’t the only way. I actually prefer choice and project-based assignments for that very reason. I can actually see what my students know, and not what they memorized. (… and I am a highly regarded teacher who takes assessment methods courses on my own time each summer.)

People take test prep sessions to learn the skills associated with taking a test… the strategy. I have also had mediocre students who are good at test strategy.

I don’t see a clear correlation between high test scores and high performance.

Maybe there's not a 1:1 correlation between high test scores and high performance, but there's no way they're totally uncorrelated.

And while it's nice that you favor project-based assignments, they come with their own tradeoffs and downsides.

What's your solution? Just get rid of the AP exams altogether because....you don't like them? Or you think they're unreliable barometers of student knowledge and success?

Project-based assessments are very subjective, which opens up all kinds of biases and inconsistencies so I don't see trading one for the other as really solving the problem.

You’re simply being hyperbolic. Did I suggest… or even remotely imply… that we should get rid of AP tests? No, I didn’t. They are one data point.

I’m not sure why it’s a threatening notion that there are educators (many of us) who don’t put all of our eggs in a high-stakes test basket.

I get more valuable data regarding my students’ progress from project based assessments. I’m able to get a better handle on an individual student’s strengths and setbacks this way. I spend a ton of time doing this. I suppose I can throw an old AP test their way, which would save me a ton of time. I wouldn’t be serving the students nearly as well, though.

I actually value learning, the joy of learning, and the retention of knowledge. I don’t value high-stakes multiple choice assessments as much. I don’t think of my students as scores.

I suspect you care a lot about scores. Have at it. They are a great way to get into colleges. Just know they aren’t the only way. I’ve taught over 3,200 students so far in my career. I’ve learned not to base a student’s success off a test score. Good thing, too, since many mediocre test takers went on to be tremendously successful.

You're painting me with the same hyperbolic brush you're accusing me of.

I never said tests were the only thing that mattered. But I do think they're an important part of the learning process and students who struggle or fail at them should not be brushed aside and just chalked up to "some kids don't test well."

That's the main point I was making, as that line of talk and thinking seems to be more prevalent among parents and teachers and I don't think it's healthy or helpful to kids. It gives kids an out and an excuse from getting better at tests because some educators, like yourself, give them a hall pass that maybe they're just not a good test taker.

We should be teaching kids to develop the self-awareness to figure out why they're doing poorly on the test and implement strategies and tactics to overcome the hurdles and obstacles that are preventing them from doing well on the tests. It's called developing resilience and it's severely lacking in students today.

Soft skills like resiliency can be taught through essay revisions, project feedback, etc. Self awareness doesn’t need to be merely linked to test taking skills.

I agree these traits are lacking in students. I disagree that objective multiple choice tests are the way to teach them (or remotely the best way).

You say this as if tests are the only way students get evaluated throughout a class. They aren't. Throughout the course of any given class, there's a mixture of the exact things you mention (essays, projects, classwork, homework, etc.), which yes, does include tests. So that's already happening, which means kids are being evaluated on more than just tests?

Or is it that you specifically think the AP Exam itself is what's broken, because it is a multiple choice test? If so, what would you replace it with?

Also, doesn't throwing out tests harm the kids who are good at them and work hard to succeed at them? Why is their success invalidated to validate those who are "bad test takers"?

There’s no point for us to argue. I don’t disagree with your claims above. I never claimed that the AP test is broken, nor did I claim that we don’t use multiple choice as one form of many assessments.

Nobody has invalidated high-scoring students’ success. Nobody. Saying somebody has suggests insecurity. I just refuse to invalidate students’ potential because of lower test scores. There’s no reason to assume students are doomed because of a 2 or 3 on an AP exam. These can still be remarkably strong students. I’ve known many. Many.

DCUM is very stats-driven, to the point of forgetting we are talking about children

I've been teaching AP classes for 15 years and I have known incredibly intelligent students who received 2s, but they are NEVER "strong" students because they almost all have terrible work habits. There is a difference. So, I would disagree with the teacher above. These students aren't doomed, but neither are the kids receiving 2s "remarkably strong students."

I’m the PP. Are you comfortable with that word “never”? I just spent the past couple of minutes thinking back through my many years of teaching AP and IB. I can think of a good number of students who scores 2-ish scores who went on to great universities, advanced degrees, and successful careers. None of this would be possible if they weren’t strong students. One of my lower IB scores went to a student who is among the top of her class in a challenging nursing program right now. She has a strong work ethic, a lot of intellectual curiosity, and proven performance in places other than AP/IB exams.

“Never” is way too absolute of a word. I challenge you to think back. You really can’t think of one strong student who performed poorly on an AP exam? Really? And they all have poor work habits? Really?

No, I can't. My pass rates are high, and the only kids getting twos in my classes have poor work habits (or just don't get it - another disqualifier for being a "strong student.") Again, kids can progress and develop good habits and go on to do well in college. But in my experience, unless someone is deathly ill on test day, strong students who have worked during the year are not getting twos.

DP.. DC got a two on one of the AP tests. They had an A/B in the class all year, did all the assignments, went to class, studied for the AP test.

Granted, the way DC studied was not the most conducive to retaining information, however, IMO, grade inflation, and teachers not providing good feedback on assignments and tests give the students a false sense of competency in the subject.

My older DC had this teacher a couple of years ago, and said that this teacher was awful. Not only did the teacher not know the material well enough to teach it, but they provided almost no feedback.

So, teacher, I hope that you provide better feedback to your students so that they know what they need to work on.

It's exam technique they need to spend a little more time on.

They took the practice exam and went through the AP book. Maybe teachers need to spend a little more time on providing feedback on assignments.

Maybe it's both that's needed? If they don't cover the long answer questions and demonstrate how a certain number of facts / analysis needs to be included, the kid is going to tank because that's where the grade is weighted in the exam.

[Anonymous]

My now college students’ scores were all over the place. 3s are fine, no matter what your friends/neighbors/relatives have to say. Most schools won’t give credit for 3s but in my opinion that’s not the only reason to take an AP course. My college kids got credit for some courses but most courses they did score well on only counted as low level electives anyway. Off the top of my head, it was just calculus and English lit that seemed to be truly useful. Within a major, a 5 is really not the equivalent of taking the class and they had to repeat or chose to repeat many of those. I have one now in HS who is so intimidated because of all the score/grade comparison going on that he dropped his first AP course mid-year even though I told him to just focus on the class and not to worry about the test. He is a terrible test taker and scores in the 60th percentile routinely on standardized tests so his odds of doing well on the SAT or APs are poor. Yet he is very bright as measured by IQ and has intellectual curiosity and a great work ethic which I know will serve him well once he gets through school. But I worry that getting through school with the current system that emphasizes scores/APs etc is breaking him emotionally.

Inevitably people will comment that AP scores are really important and you must load up to have any shot at a top school. But the fact is most kids, even on DCUM, are not going to get into a top school. The pressure on today’s students is incredibly harmful. Most kids will find a wonderful college fit whether they take a lot of APs or not and whether they earn 3s or 5s (or even an occasional 1). I long ago accepted my kids were not going to a “top” school by DCUM standards but I love the kids I have and know they will be successful.