MD Student Needs Safety Options

[Anonymous]

I think what people are saying is that not only do you not have true safeties but the "target" zone on your list is a little scanty too. You have a ton of reaches (Hamilton and Midd and Wesleyan are reaches, and her odds are low unless she EDs them). With a really strong application, they become low reaches if ED'd.

I think your actual targets for applying RD are F&M, Dickinson, Bard, UMD. If she is really happy with those options that's good, but F&M is a significantly more competitive school than Bard and Dickinson and maybe she'd want more options in that range?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think what people are saying is that not only do you not have true safeties but the "target" zone on your list is a little scanty too. You have a ton of reaches (Hamilton and Midd and Wesleyan are reaches, and her odds are low unless she EDs them). With a really strong application, they become low reaches if ED'd.

I think your actual targets for applying RD are F&M, Dickinson, Bard, UMD. If she is really happy with those options that's good, but F&M is a significantly more competitive school than Bard and Dickinson and maybe she'd want more options in that range?

I posted this and want to clarify that it's not like it's impossible she could get into Williams or a school that selective--it could happen! But in the past couple years I have known of some excellent students who applied to highly selective schools and ended up at schools much lower ranked than you would have expected (and TBH, schools they really didn't want and
had never expected to actually attend) because they didn't have solid middle-range options. Admissions are more competitive and unpredictable than they were five years ago.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think what people are saying is that not only do you not have true safeties but the "target" zone on your list is a little scanty too. You have a ton of reaches (Hamilton and Midd and Wesleyan are reaches, and her odds are low unless she EDs them). With a really strong application, they become low reaches if ED'd.

I think your actual targets for applying RD are F&M, Dickinson, Bard, UMD. If she is really happy with those options that's good, but F&M is a significantly more competitive school than Bard and Dickinson and maybe she'd want more options in that range?

I posted this and want to clarify that it's not like it's impossible she could get into Williams or a school that selective--it could happen! But in the past couple years I have known of some excellent students who applied to highly selective schools and ended up at schools much lower ranked than you would have expected (and TBH, schools they really didn't want and
had never expected to actually attend) because they didn't have solid middle-range options. Admissions are more competitive and unpredictable than they were five years ago.

I feel like the OP in the back of her mind believes she will get into Williams/Amherst at least subconsciously because she feels her daughter deserves it and is kind of going through the motions of rounding out likelies. Is someone interested in Williams and Amherst really seriously thinking Towson St is a possibility?

With a 35 and a top notch transcript, anything is possible. As I understand it, her academic stats really couldn't be better. F&M and Dickinson would be lousy outcomes in my opinion--and it's a bit weird to think that a nearly perfect academic student would have those as target schools. Assuming chasing merit aid is not a top priority, my personal advice would be to figure out 2 schools between Williams and Dickinson in the rankings that her daughter would love to attend and make them the ED priorities (while figuring out a bunch of other ones for RD). A kid with a 35 will def get some acceptances RD. I also really believe the gap between the Willaims and Amhersts and the next 20-30 is not as great as it once was so you are not giving up that much by prioritizing a somewhat less rejective school. The experience will be very similar as will the quality of the students. There are so many extremely bright kids who want to attend a LAC now (not to mention other types of schools) and the total number of seats available among top US LACs is not a lot. So they are all over the place, whereas the extremely bright ones 10 years ago may have really been concentrated in the top 5.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you are unhooked, you need to think more carefully about schools between Williams and Dickinson. In particular, you need to think through an ED strategy. If your ED strategy is ED1 and ED2 to Williams, Amherst and Swat, your kid may end up at Dickinson or F&M. There are a lot of great schools in between that you would have a much higher chance of acceptance if you apply ED than you would at the top 5. I would figure out which of these appeal to your kid. Yes, Williams is the gold standard, but there are many schools not far behind... Consider Rhodes and Furman for merit aid.

OP here. Did you have schools in mind? I thought we had a pretty good selection across the small liberal arts colleges. I will take a look at Rhodes and Furman.

I’ll admit I’m not well educated on early decision options. Why would doing early decision to one of the more selective schools mean she was locked into one of the less selective ones? Is that because you think she would be rejected out right at the beginning?

The best and most likely way to get into a selective liberal arts college is by applying ED1 or ED2. These schools take up to half or more of their classes ED. So RD becomes very difficult with fewer open spots, and you are competing against all the kids who got rejected ED from the most selective LACs as well as Ivy League type rejects. Schools also practice yield management (where they don’t extend offers to qualified students because their computers tell them they are statistically unlikely to matriculate) so outcomes can be flukey.

In a sense almost all of the top 30 LACs are kind of reachy although with a 35 and a 4.0 you are in good shape. But I would worry about pinning your hopes on top 5 LACs just because they are so ultra competitive. If you apply ED1 and ED2 to Williams, Amherst etc, you could well get rejected both times and then you’ve lost your shot at schools in the 10-30 range. You only had two such schools listed- Hamilton and Midd I think it was- which are very close to the top themselves. What I would do is look at the US News list top 30/40 and think very carefully through process of elimination which schools may be really good fits. Then visit them etc. You could reach for the stars ED1 if you want but maybe ED2 if that doesn’t work out have something less competitive in mind. Or pass on the super duper competitive ones altogether for ED. I think it’s very likely your daughter would get into many schools ranked below 30 or so RD probably with merit aid. But you want to be more strategic in my opinion about the top 30ish and develop an ED game plan. Also, the Ohio schools are a bit easier to get into for the quality they offer and have great performing arts- I would investigate.

Adding on to the ED discussion. ED is binding. As others have said, you have to be in the position to either have the 80K per year and not mind paying it for the school or qualify for FA (run net price calculators) and feel comfortable with that number and that you don’t need to compare FA amounts or take a merit option that could save you more.

If ED is an option financially, if your child has a clear top choice or has a high target/low reach they may want to apply ED. For example, Amherst has an 6% acceptance rate excluding ED and 24% ED acceptance rate. While your child might get some boost applying ED, you have to assume that 24% includes recruited athletes and legacies (assuming Amherst considers legacy in admissions). My gut is there might be a small boost to ED but your kid will be competing with lots of other unhooked kids with high stats where Swarthmore is their dream school. Looking at Wesleyan for example, the overall acceptance rate excluding ED is 17% while that feels more likely than Swarthmore that still means 83% are waitlisted or rejected. The ED rate however is 55%. If Wesleyan was a top choice or a close second, your child might consider either ED1 to Wesleyan or ED to Swarthmore and if they don’t get in, ED2 to Wesleyan. With your child’s stats/interest I wouldn’t say to ED to Dickinson since that has a 47% acceptance rate and your kid is likely in the top 25% for the applicant pool. As long as your kid isn’t phoning it in for the application or picking a program that is much more selective, I would say this is a low target. This chart that using data from the Common Data Sets is helpful https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/early-vs-regular-decision-admission-rates/

[Anonymous]

I was the person with the "profoundly bad advice" (that made me laugh). If you can afford to ED a super top school and it's your kid's favorite, of course do that! I am reacting to what seems like increasingly popular but bad advice to ED to a mid-range school that your kid might okay/sorta be happy at, just to have one in the books. That's the impression I get from some posts on here lately... Maybe I'm wrong. Hopefully not profoundly wrong again, though. haha. I'm actually curious about this - please explain?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was the person with the "profoundly bad advice" (that made me laugh). If you can afford to ED a super top school and it's your kid's favorite, of course do that! I am reacting to what seems like increasingly popular but bad advice to ED to a mid-range school that your kid might okay/sorta be happy at, just to have one in the books. That's the impression I get from some posts on here lately... Maybe I'm wrong. Hopefully not profoundly wrong again, though. haha. I'm actually curious about this - please explain?

LOL. I can be a little dramatic. I agree, you don't want to do ED when you aren't 100% comfortable with a positive outcome. And I think that is where people get nervous about focusing more on a target type school than a reach. So it really comes down to thinking it through in advance. ED1 and ED2 is nice though because if your dream doesn't come true ED1, there is information in that. For example, in this context, if she applied to Williams ED1 and got rejected, maybe there would be more comfort applying to something less competitive for ED2 as opposed to just applying to a school that is equally competitive. Only apply ED when you will be really satisfied with the positive result, even knowing that maybe maybe you could have gotten into Harvard or Williams or whatever RD and now you will never know. Unfortunately, the benefit of a realistic ED application - a higher chance of things working out- comes at the cost of foreclosing possibly better outcomes. But because it is so hard to get in places RD (and don't forget all those rejected Ivy Leaguers, Brown, Dartmouth, Princeton etc. swooping down into LAC world) it is a compromise often worth making. It's your best shot of getting in somewhere good for your profile.

[Anonymous]

I would suggest that op read the portion of Jeff Selingo’s book about admissions at Amherst and Williams for unhooked students. Even with ED, these two schools are near impossible admissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you are unhooked, you need to think more carefully about schools between Williams and Dickinson. In particular, you need to think through an ED strategy. If your ED strategy is ED1 and ED2 to Williams, Amherst and Swat, your kid may end up at Dickinson or F&M. There are a lot of great schools in between that you would have a much higher chance of acceptance if you apply ED than you would at the top 5. I would figure out which of these appeal to your kid. Yes, Williams is the gold standard, but there are many schools not far behind... Consider Rhodes and Furman for merit aid.

OP here. Did you have schools in mind? I thought we had a pretty good selection across the small liberal arts colleges. I will take a look at Rhodes and Furman.

I’ll admit I’m not well educated on early decision options. Why would doing early decision to one of the more selective schools mean she was locked into one of the less selective ones? Is that because you think she would be rejected out right at the beginning?

The best and most likely way to get into a selective liberal arts college is by applying ED1 or ED2. These schools take up to half or more of their classes ED. So RD becomes very difficult with fewer open spots, and you are competing against all the kids who got rejected ED from the most selective LACs as well as Ivy League type rejects. Schools also practice yield management (where they don’t extend offers to qualified students because their computers tell them they are statistically unlikely to matriculate) so outcomes can be flukey.

In a sense almost all of the top 30 LACs are kind of reachy although with a 35 and a 4.0 you are in good shape. But I would worry about pinning your hopes on top 5 LACs just because they are so ultra competitive. If you apply ED1 and ED2 to Williams, Amherst etc, you could well get rejected both times and then you’ve lost your shot at schools in the 10-30 range. You only had two such schools listed- Hamilton and Midd I think it was- which are very close to the top themselves. What I would do is look at the US News list top 30/40 and think very carefully through process of elimination which schools may be really good fits. Then visit them etc. You could reach for the stars ED1 if you want but maybe ED2 if that doesn’t work out have something less competitive in mind. Or pass on the super duper competitive ones altogether for ED. I think it’s very likely your daughter would get into many schools ranked below 30 or so RD probably with merit aid. But you want to be more strategic in my opinion about the top 30ish and develop an ED game plan. Also, the Ohio schools are a bit easier to get into for the quality they offer and have great performing arts- I would investigate.

Adding on to the ED discussion. ED is binding. As others have said, you have to be in the position to either have the 80K per year and not mind paying it for the school or qualify for FA (run net price calculators) and feel comfortable with that number and that you don’t need to compare FA amounts or take a merit option that could save you more.

If ED is an option financially, if your child has a clear top choice or has a high target/low reach they may want to apply ED. For example, Amherst has an 6% acceptance rate excluding ED and 24% ED acceptance rate. While your child might get some boost applying ED, you have to assume that 24% includes recruited athletes and legacies (assuming Amherst considers legacy in admissions). My gut is there might be a small boost to ED but your kid will be competing with lots of other unhooked kids with high stats where Swarthmore is their dream school. Looking at Wesleyan for example, the overall acceptance rate excluding ED is 17% while that feels more likely than Swarthmore that still means 83% are waitlisted or rejected. The ED rate however is 55%. If Wesleyan was a top choice or a close second, your child might consider either ED1 to Wesleyan or ED to Swarthmore and if they don’t get in, ED2 to Wesleyan. With your child’s stats/interest I wouldn’t say to ED to Dickinson since that has a 47% acceptance rate and your kid is likely in the top 25% for the applicant pool. As long as your kid isn’t phoning it in for the application or picking a program that is much more selective, I would say this is a low target. This chart that using data from the Common Data Sets is helpful https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/early-vs-regular-decision-admission-rates/

I would say ED to Dickinson should be totally out of the question, almost for any student (except a very wealthy and weak one), as it potentially impacts merit aid. For a student with a 35 ACT, it would be absurd. This student is not in the top 25% but probably 5%. The only thing she has to worry about is yield control which can be handled through demonstrated interest. Not all acceptance rates were created equal. The Dickinson pool is going to be drastically less competitive than other schools mentioned.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would suggest that op read the portion of Jeff Selingo’s book about admissions at Amherst and Williams for unhooked students. Even with ED, these two schools are near impossible admissions.

Someone actually made a music video about what an unhooked applicant should do with their dreams of attending Amherst or Williams...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0MK7qz13bU

[Anonymous]

I think it’s hard, if stats are similar to admitted kids at “top” schools, to get one’s mind around the idea that the likeliest outcome for you, personally, is that you will be rejected there and accepted at a school with a significantly higher admissions rate where your stats are much above the average.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s hard, if stats are similar to admitted kids at “top” schools, to get one’s mind around the idea that the likeliest outcome for you, personally, is that you will be rejected there and accepted at a school with a significantly higher admissions rate where your stats are much above the average.

The unhooked as a starting point need to be above average academically but even then the very top schools have to somewhat arbitrarily select one academic superstar for every X they reject. As you go down the selectivity list, X becomes a smaller number and ultimately approaches zero with ED. In RD anything goes because of yield control.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s hard, if stats are similar to admitted kids at “top” schools, to get one’s mind around the idea that the likeliest outcome for you, personally, is that you will be rejected there and accepted at a school with a significantly higher admissions rate where your stats are much above the average.

The unhooked as a starting point need to be above average academically but even then the very top schools have to somewhat arbitrarily select one academic superstar for every X they reject. As you go down the selectivity list, X becomes a smaller number and ultimately approaches zero with ED. In RD anything goes because of yield control.

Except it isn’t completely arbitrary, it’s often for geographical diversity and gender diversity. Unfortunately, being a girl from the DMV area doesn’t help with either. Too many strong students here applying to the same elite schools, and slacs need boys, not girls.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think what people are saying is that not only do you not have true safeties but the "target" zone on your list is a little scanty too. You have a ton of reaches (Hamilton and Midd and Wesleyan are reaches, and her odds are low unless she EDs them). With a really strong application, they become low reaches if ED'd.

I think your actual targets for applying RD are F&M, Dickinson, Bard, UMD. If she is really happy with those options that's good, but F&M is a significantly more competitive school than Bard and Dickinson and maybe she'd want more options in that range?

I posted this and want to clarify that it's not like it's impossible she could get into Williams or a school that selective--it could happen! But in the past couple years I have known of some excellent students who applied to highly selective schools and ended up at schools much lower ranked than you would have expected (and TBH, schools they really didn't want and
had never expected to actually attend) because they didn't have solid middle-range options. Admissions are more competitive and unpredictable than they were five years ago.

This is excellent advice. We realized after the fact that our high stats kid (class of 21) applied to lots of reaches for all, and some solid safeties we liked, but not much in the way of targets. It all worked out in the end, but it was stressful. We're being more careful to make sure our next kid finds more schools in that middle range that they would be happy attending, also.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s hard, if stats are similar to admitted kids at “top” schools, to get one’s mind around the idea that the likeliest outcome for you, personally, is that you will be rejected there and accepted at a school with a significantly higher admissions rate where your stats are much above the average.

The unhooked as a starting point need to be above average academically but even then the very top schools have to somewhat arbitrarily select one academic superstar for every X they reject. As you go down the selectivity list, X becomes a smaller number and ultimately approaches zero with ED. In RD anything goes because of yield control.

Except it isn’t completely arbitrary, it’s often for geographical diversity and gender diversity. Unfortunately, being a girl from the DMV area doesn’t help with either. Too many strong students here applying to the same elite schools, and slacs need boys, not girls.

Yes, the headwind for a white female from DMV who merely offers excellent academic credentials is quite strong. The good news is there are many excellent LACS besides Williams and Amherst.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you are unhooked, you need to think more carefully about schools between Williams and Dickinson. In particular, you need to think through an ED strategy. If your ED strategy is ED1 and ED2 to Williams, Amherst and Swat, your kid may end up at Dickinson or F&M. There are a lot of great schools in between that you would have a much higher chance of acceptance if you apply ED than you would at the top 5. I would figure out which of these appeal to your kid. Yes, Williams is the gold standard, but there are many schools not far behind... Consider Rhodes and Furman for merit aid.

OP here. Did you have schools in mind? I thought we had a pretty good selection across the small liberal arts colleges. I will take a look at Rhodes and Furman.

I’ll admit I’m not well educated on early decision options. Why would doing early decision to one of the more selective schools mean she was locked into one of the less selective ones? Is that because you think she would be rejected out right at the beginning?

The best and most likely way to get into a selective liberal arts college is by applying ED1 or ED2. These schools take up to half or more of their classes ED. So RD becomes very difficult with fewer open spots, and you are competing against all the kids who got rejected ED from the most selective LACs as well as Ivy League type rejects. Schools also practice yield management (where they don’t extend offers to qualified students because their computers tell them they are statistically unlikely to matriculate) so outcomes can be flukey.

In a sense almost all of the top 30 LACs are kind of reachy although with a 35 and a 4.0 you are in good shape. But I would worry about pinning your hopes on top 5 LACs just because they are so ultra competitive. If you apply ED1 and ED2 to Williams, Amherst etc, you could well get rejected both times and then you’ve lost your shot at schools in the 10-30 range. You only had two such schools listed- Hamilton and Midd I think it was- which are very close to the top themselves. What I would do is look at the US News list top 30/40 and think very carefully through process of elimination which schools may be really good fits. Then visit them etc. You could reach for the stars ED1 if you want but maybe ED2 if that doesn’t work out have something less competitive in mind. Or pass on the super duper competitive ones altogether for ED. I think it’s very likely your daughter would get into many schools ranked below 30 or so RD probably with merit aid. But you want to be more strategic in my opinion about the top 30ish and develop an ED game plan. Also, the Ohio schools are a bit easier to get into for the quality they offer and have great performing arts- I would investigate.

Adding on to the ED discussion. ED is binding. As others have said, you have to be in the position to either have the 80K per year and not mind paying it for the school or qualify for FA (run net price calculators) and feel comfortable with that number and that you don’t need to compare FA amounts or take a merit option that could save you more.

If ED is an option financially, if your child has a clear top choice or has a high target/low reach they may want to apply ED. For example, Amherst has an 6% acceptance rate excluding ED and 24% ED acceptance rate. While your child might get some boost applying ED, you have to assume that 24% includes recruited athletes and legacies (assuming Amherst considers legacy in admissions). My gut is there might be a small boost to ED but your kid will be competing with lots of other unhooked kids with high stats where Swarthmore is their dream school. Looking at Wesleyan for example, the overall acceptance rate excluding ED is 17% while that feels more likely than Swarthmore that still means 83% are waitlisted or rejected. The ED rate however is 55%. If Wesleyan was a top choice or a close second, your child might consider either ED1 to Wesleyan or ED to Swarthmore and if they don’t get in, ED2 to Wesleyan. With your child’s stats/interest I wouldn’t say to ED to Dickinson since that has a 47% acceptance rate and your kid is likely in the top 25% for the applicant pool. As long as your kid isn’t phoning it in for the application or picking a program that is much more selective, I would say this is a low target. This chart that using data from the Common Data Sets is helpful https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/early-vs-regular-decision-admission-rates/

I would say ED to Dickinson should be totally out of the question, almost for any student (except a very wealthy and weak one), as it potentially impacts merit aid. For a student with a 35 ACT, it would be absurd. This student is not in the top 25% but probably 5%. The only thing she has to worry about is yield control which can be handled through demonstrated interest. Not all acceptance rates were created equal. The Dickinson pool is going to be drastically less competitive than other schools mentioned.

I’m not saying OP’s daughter should ED to Dickinson, but ED at Dickinson does not impact merit aid because there’s a merit pre-read. I’m saying Dickinson is a good safety for OP’s daughter because of her high grades and because it is likely a good fit, with international business, an excellent ballet program, and the opportunity to continue with music training and performance. The option of continuing music and dance performance without being a major is unusual. The quality of ballet training by CPYB is world renowned. People outside of the ballet world do not understand what is offered by the partnership between Dickinson and CPYB. Not everyone is solely interested in rankings and ROI.