SUNY schools — why aren’t they as popular as other OOS schools

[Anonymous]

Well Penn State is Penn State---the atmosphere alone is what many want, along with a quality big school.
Delaware---great state school and it's not located in the middle of nowhere (like most SUNYs)
and Temple is in a Major city.
I honestly think location, location location is why people don't think of SUNYs. And when you put OOS costs with them, it's just not worth it. Many are not easy to fly to---you have to bus a few hours to an airport or take a train and then connect.

People go to Alabama for the big school experience (football, and now basketball) and the fact that Alabama offers MAJOR merit to students. A 1420+ and 3.5+ UW gpa will get you FREE TUITION as an OOS student. So yeah, people are willing to sacrifice "ranking" for the big school experience with only owing room & board. I know for a fact that Boulder does not offer much (if any) merit awards, especially for OOS students. So $18K for R&B at Alabama or $~56K for tuition, R&B at Boulder. Really not that difficult to see why someone would select Alabama (I personally wouldn't and neither would my kids, but I can certainly understand why many would)

Look, you can find any excuse you want, but i don't think these stand up to scrutiny, and certainly not as a measure of educational quality. If you're going to talk up Penn State, then don't say that a (equally highly ranked) school being in Buffalo or on Long Island is remote or hard to reach by air. I'm not sure what you mean by Delaware is "a great state school" when the (on this site, authoritative) USNWR report says the three SUNY flagships are better state schools. As as for Alabama -- well, if someone can get a free ride, anywhere, that changes the equation. But it's also true that if you talk about "being willing to sacrifice 'ranking'" -- ie, the expert measure of the quality of the academic experience, and the gap between the SUNYs and Alabama is significant -- in favor of the "big school experience (football, and now basketball)," it basically means you're assigning a higher priority to having a good time than to the quality of the educational experience. Anyone's entitled to make that choice, but let's not pretend that's SUNY's problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

First, international students are excluded from both the numerator and the denominator when calculating OOS percentages at all universities. The 7% OOS figure is the one that allows for apples-to-apples comparisons with other schools' OOS figures (the SUNY schools don't get to puff their numbers, as you're trying to do, by including internationals when everyone else excludes them).

Second, your "collegefactual" cite is spouting nonsense. The CDS includes actual nonresident alien numbers, too, in section B2. At Bing, it's 575 out of 14,307, or 4%. (No rocket science required.)

You've got to stop assuming that the CDS is gospel. It fundamentally doesn't matter if "international students are excluded from both the numerator and the denominator" in the CDS statistics. If about ten percent of the student body at Binghamton is international students (and it is -- youre again misled by the fact that CDS only looks at undergraduate statistics), then by definition that's ten percent of the student body that aren't NYers.

With more than 1,800 international students from 98 different countries, Binghamton University
https://www.binghamton.edu/admissions/apply/international/index.html

The CDS basically IS the gospel because the numbers are provided directly by the school using the same metric. Below is a link to a useful reference (some SUNY schools are listed with "SUNY" at the beginning, but not Binghamton or Stony Brook).

https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/enrollment-by-residency

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

That's still ALL NY. So while very different and a bit diverse, the fact is majority of those students are from somewhere in NY and will want to remain in NY (somewhere) after graduation. Versus say attending UChicago or Northwestern: at Northwestern 78% of students are from out of state. So only 22% are from Chicago vs smaller cities near Chicago vs rural Illinois, vs medium cities elsewhere in IL. Much more diverse than where 85% are from NY state itself. Many kids want that from their college experience. And if you do a SUNY is not the place to get that

Okay, it sounds like you're saying "elite private universities have a more geographically diverse student body than state universities that are designed principally to educate qualified students from their state." Yeah, that's not really contested. The relevant comparison to SUNY in this case would be Urbana-Champaign and UIUC

No---because someone was claiming it was diverse and I was pointing out two private schools that are much more diverse. And at the cost OOS for a SUNY, most kids can find a private school (probably not NW or UC tiered) that would cost the same or less and be much more diverse.

Obviously all state schools are typically 65-70%+ In state students. But unless I live in NY, I can attend a much more diverse school for the same (or less) cost by attending a private school. But someone attempting to argue that SUNYs are diverse is not going to win that battle. Just like no state schools are that diverse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Well Penn State is Penn State---the atmosphere alone is what many want, along with a quality big school.
Delaware---great state school and it's not located in the middle of nowhere (like most SUNYs)
and Temple is in a Major city.
I honestly think location, location location is why people don't think of SUNYs. And when you put OOS costs with them, it's just not worth it. Many are not easy to fly to---you have to bus a few hours to an airport or take a train and then connect.

People go to Alabama for the big school experience (football, and now basketball) and the fact that Alabama offers MAJOR merit to students. A 1420+ and 3.5+ UW gpa will get you FREE TUITION as an OOS student. So yeah, people are willing to sacrifice "ranking" for the big school experience with only owing room & board. I know for a fact that Boulder does not offer much (if any) merit awards, especially for OOS students. So $18K for R&B at Alabama or $~56K for tuition, R&B at Boulder. Really not that difficult to see why someone would select Alabama (I personally wouldn't and neither would my kids, but I can certainly understand why many would)

Look, you can find any excuse you want, but i don't think these stand up to scrutiny, and certainly not as a measure of educational quality. If you're going to talk up Penn State, then don't say that a (equally highly ranked) school being in Buffalo or on Long Island is remote or hard to reach by air. I'm not sure what you mean by Delaware is "a great state school" when the (on this site, authoritative) USNWR report says the three SUNY flagships are better state schools. As as for Alabama -- well, if someone can get a free ride, anywhere, that changes the equation. But it's also true that if you talk about "being willing to sacrifice 'ranking'" -- ie, the expert measure of the quality of the academic experience, and the gap between the SUNYs and Alabama is significant -- in favor of the "big school experience (football, and now basketball)," it basically means you're assigning a higher priority to having a good time than to the quality of the educational experience. Anyone's entitled to make that choice, but let's not pretend that's SUNY's problem.

I personally wouldn't pick any of those over a SUNY, but also wouldn't pick a SUNY because I'm not a NY resident. My kid's have picked where to attend for the academic aspects first, then looked at what else the school/location has to offer. One kid picked a mid size city, one picked a great school in CA (and yeah the weather is awesome) and one picked a much smaller but still "decent size" city in upstate NY so they definitely didn't pick it for the weather but rather for the academics and quality of research opportunities available at this smaller highly ranked school. But let's be real, the reason many pick OOS state flagships is for both the academics and the "whole experience" and to be honest---the difference in rankings between 80 and 120 is not that much, IMO, what matters more is the opportunities within your desired major---so you pick a school in that range for academics (and opportunities to actually major in what you want), location and the overall experience. And yes, many, many people picks schools for the football experience, the greek experience, etc. We don't in our family, but many do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

That's still ALL NY. So while very different and a bit diverse, the fact is majority of those students are from somewhere in NY and will want to remain in NY (somewhere) after graduation. Versus say attending UChicago or Northwestern: at Northwestern 78% of students are from out of state. So only 22% are from Chicago vs smaller cities near Chicago vs rural Illinois, vs medium cities elsewhere in IL. Much more diverse than where 85% are from NY state itself. Many kids want that from their college experience. And if you do a SUNY is not the place to get that

Okay, it sounds like you're saying "elite private universities have a more geographically diverse student body than state universities that are designed principally to educate qualified students from their state." Yeah, that's not really contested. The relevant comparison to SUNY in this case would be Urbana-Champaign and UIUC

No---because someone was claiming it was diverse and I was pointing out two private schools that are much more diverse. And at the cost OOS for a SUNY, most kids can find a private school (probably not NW or UC tiered) that would cost the same or less and be much more diverse.

Obviously all state schools are typically 65-70%+ In state students. But unless I live in NY, I can attend a much more diverse school for the same (or less) cost by attending a private school. But someone attempting to argue that SUNYs are diverse is not going to win that battle. Just like no state schools are that diverse.

I’m not going to argue with you about the diversity, but unless you’re eligible for financial aid, you’re not going to get a private for a lower cost.
SUNY is a great deal for instate but also has some price cuts for OOS students, dependent on SUNY campus and your state of residence.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/edwardconroy/2022/10/30/state-university-of-new-york-offers-tuition-discount-to-students-from-8-states/?sh=63cb0ec060d2

[Anonymous]

I grew up in NYS. Many friends and siblings went to SUNYs. I was a very strong student and I never even considered them. I looked at NY privates like Cornell and Rochester and ended up going to an Ivy in another state. I don't live in NYS anymore and it never occurred to me or my kids to look at SUNY schools.

[Anonymous]

Person who grew up in NY again, no, there isn't a flagship at all. SUNY is a solid overall system, with some schools better than others, but without true standouts. Nothing like Michigan, UVA, etc.

[Anonymous]

My daughter got accepted University of Maryland at College Park in state and SUNY Binghamton.

SUNY offered her the instate tuition which is cheaper than the Maryland in state.

The girl who gave tour was from Maryland and got same deal. They are looking to attract more DMV kids and offer the deal to good students all the time

[Anonymous]

FIT in NYC Manhattan is perhaps best deal in United States or World for Fashion.

It is CUNY. Tuition is very low and the location a short walk NY Penn Station is great for back and forth DMV.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Person who grew up in NY again, no, there isn't a flagship at all. SUNY is a solid overall system, with some schools better than others, but without true standouts. Nothing like Michigan, UVA, etc.

Correct. If you grow up in New York, you're very aware of the reputations of each school + what each is truly known for. THERE IS NO FLAGSHIP and I don't understand the people who keep saying there is one or three flagships.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Seems incredibly short-sighted of NY state not to have a more appealing university system. Insane.

Well, appealing to you probably isn't their top priority.

NY has long had a huge network of private and religious-affiliated universities and colleges. It didn't formally establish the SUNY state university system until 1948, and it was clear that from the start, SUNY - like many other state universities in the northeast -- wasn't intended to rival or supplant long-established in-state private universities (like Columbia or Cornell or Rochester).

New York was the largest state in the country when SUNY was founded, and SUNY was (and is) the nation's largest comprehensive public university system, so establishing a single "flagship" as in most states (save California) wasn't a feasible option. So resources weren't funneled into one flagship showcase but spread around four university campuses (now winnowed down to two "flagship" campuses -- Stony Brook and Buffalo) and about 20 other colleges (plus community colleges). A lot of expansion occurred in the 1960s, which of course is problematic for DCUM commenters who are convinced that the caliber of educational experience correlates directly to how closely a campus resembles either Harvard or Downton Abbey.

The SUNY system offers a solid, often excellent, education, in a range of different settings. For NYers the cost is an incredible value; for OOS students, SUNY tuitions are still a very good value. It's certainly provides a better education than many of the other schools that DCUM commenters talk about for their non-HYPSM kids, but apparently some DCUM families care more about climate or architecture (or some other subjective "vibe" metric) than they do about educational quality, so their loss.

I suspect for the state of NY, funding a university system that's largely going to provide an affordable college education for in-state residents who are likely to remain in state, and boost the state's skill and income levels, rather than serve as a pit stop for OOS students to absorb four years of education before they leave the state for elsewhere - is probably a good rather than bad outcome. Thanks in large part to SUNY, NY has the highest college graduation rate of any of the ten largest US states. Compared to that accomplishment, there's a strong case to be made that investing limited resources to generate "appeal" for out of state kids and their parents actually shouldn't be a top priority for a state university system.

Amen to this, too.

I live in PA and our in-state options are nowhere near as inexpensive. New York does a lot of things wrong, but I like and respect SUNY for all the reasons you explained.

[Anonymous]

Agree with an above poster, SUNY is working to increase OOS students. My dc applied to a few due to free application week and has gotten aid from all bringing tuition to at least in state rates and from at least 1, maybe 2, to below what instate pays. In fact, one brought tuition to below what we’d pay at UMD so we are going up to visit just in case.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Seems incredibly short-sighted of NY state not to have a more appealing university system. Insane.

Well, appealing to you probably isn't their top priority.

NY has long had a huge network of private and religious-affiliated universities and colleges. It didn't formally establish the SUNY state university system until 1948, and it was clear that from the start, SUNY - like many other state universities in the northeast -- wasn't intended to rival or supplant long-established in-state private universities (like Columbia or Cornell or Rochester).

New York was the largest state in the country when SUNY was founded, and SUNY was (and is) the nation's largest comprehensive public university system, so establishing a single "flagship" as in most states (save California) wasn't a feasible option. So resources weren't funneled into one flagship showcase but spread around four university campuses (now winnowed down to two "flagship" campuses -- Stony Brook and Buffalo) and about 20 other colleges (plus community colleges). A lot of expansion occurred in the 1960s, which of course is problematic for DCUM commenters who are convinced that the caliber of educational experience correlates directly to how closely a campus resembles either Harvard or Downton Abbey.

The SUNY system offers a solid, often excellent, education, in a range of different settings. For NYers the cost is an incredible value; for OOS students, SUNY tuitions are still a very good value. It's certainly provides a better education than many of the other schools that DCUM commenters talk about for their non-HYPSM kids, but apparently some DCUM families care more about climate or architecture (or some other subjective "vibe" metric) than they do about educational quality, so their loss.

I suspect for the state of NY, funding a university system that's largely going to provide an affordable college education for in-state residents who are likely to remain in state, and boost the state's skill and income levels, rather than serve as a pit stop for OOS students to absorb four years of education before they leave the state for elsewhere - is probably a good rather than bad outcome. Thanks in large part to SUNY, NY has the highest college graduation rate of any of the ten largest US states. Compared to that accomplishment, there's a strong case to be made that investing limited resources to generate "appeal" for out of state kids and their parents actually shouldn't be a top priority for a state university system.

Amen to this, too.

I live in PA and our in-state options are nowhere near as inexpensive. New York does a lot of things wrong, but I like and respect SUNY for all the reasons you explained.

Do you know why PA state schools are so expensive? The in state tuition is incredibly expensive, I don’t get it. 40k a year for penn state?!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Seems incredibly short-sighted of NY state not to have a more appealing university system. Insane.

Well, appealing to you probably isn't their top priority.

NY has long had a huge network of private and religious-affiliated universities and colleges. It didn't formally establish the SUNY state university system until 1948, and it was clear that from the start, SUNY - like many other state universities in the northeast -- wasn't intended to rival or supplant long-established in-state private universities (like Columbia or Cornell or Rochester).

New York was the largest state in the country when SUNY was founded, and SUNY was (and is) the nation's largest comprehensive public university system, so establishing a single "flagship" as in most states (save California) wasn't a feasible option. So resources weren't funneled into one flagship showcase but spread around four university campuses (now winnowed down to two "flagship" campuses -- Stony Brook and Buffalo) and about 20 other colleges (plus community colleges). A lot of expansion occurred in the 1960s, which of course is problematic for DCUM commenters who are convinced that the caliber of educational experience correlates directly to how closely a campus resembles either Harvard or Downton Abbey.

The SUNY system offers a solid, often excellent, education, in a range of different settings. For NYers the cost is an incredible value; for OOS students, SUNY tuitions are still a very good value. It's certainly provides a better education than many of the other schools that DCUM commenters talk about for their non-HYPSM kids, but apparently some DCUM families care more about climate or architecture (or some other subjective "vibe" metric) than they do about educational quality, so their loss.

I suspect for the state of NY, funding a university system that's largely going to provide an affordable college education for in-state residents who are likely to remain in state, and boost the state's skill and income levels, rather than serve as a pit stop for OOS students to absorb four years of education before they leave the state for elsewhere - is probably a good rather than bad outcome. Thanks in large part to SUNY, NY has the highest college graduation rate of any of the ten largest US states. Compared to that accomplishment, there's a strong case to be made that investing limited resources to generate "appeal" for out of state kids and their parents actually shouldn't be a top priority for a state university system.

Amen to this, too.

I live in PA and our in-state options are nowhere near as inexpensive. New York does a lot of things wrong, but I like and respect SUNY for all the reasons you explained.

Do you know why PA state schools are so expensive? The in state tuition is incredibly expensive, I don’t get it. 40k a year for penn state?!

I have a friend who is Dean of one of the colleges at Penn State (flagship) and he told me that the state doesn't want to subsidize public education and Penn State is always fighting with the legislature for funding.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Person who grew up in NY again, no, there isn't a flagship at all. SUNY is a solid overall system, with some schools better than others, but without true standouts. Nothing like Michigan, UVA, etc.

Correct. If you grow up in New York, you're very aware of the reputations of each school + what each is truly known for. THERE IS NO FLAGSHIP and I don't understand the people who keep saying there is one or three flagships.

Maybe because of this:

https://www.buffalo.edu/ubnow/stories/2022/01/flagship-designation.html