HB Woodlawn and ATS

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ll say it again — I don’t think we should get rid of the special programs, I think we should find a way to offer more of them. Create a second ATS and house it at whichever of the neighborhood elementary schools is currently most underenrolled. Those parents would be IRATE but all the parents who get into the new ATS would be thrilled. Then use part of the WL building for a new HB Woodlawn. That way W-L doesn’t have to be so big and APS doesn’t have to find additional space for a new HB Woodlawn. Just use the WL space.

+ 1 million

Or they could just improve the instruction at all the other schools so every kid can have "the best."

ATS and HB are self-selecting populations. In the case of ATS, you're judging a program by its standardized test results when everything about ATS is leading up to getting good standardized test results. That's not everyone's goal.

HB has the second most affluent student population among the high schools. I think most high school kids would benefit from more independence, but let's not confuse correspondence with causation here.

Here we go again. A person who’s kids don’t know to ATS claiming that they know what ATS does. No ATS doesn’t teach to the test. The reason they have such high scores is because they believe structured literacy and focus on phonics and phonemic awareness as opposed to balanced literacy. While the rest of APS was using Lucy Calkins and does phonics on the fly, ATS was using Wilson’s reading and Heggerty. They also have an ELA curriculum that they made that is knowledge rich (focus on social studies). They were so successful in fact that APS adopted Heggerty a few years ago for all schools. Now the entire country is moving towards structured literacy & knowledge rich ELA curriculums. Virginia passed a literacy act and APS adopted CKLA which is phonics based and is knowledge rich. Hopefully this means that the quality of all APS schools goes up. ATS also has a two hour ELA block as opposed to a much shorter block in other APS schools.

Not an ATS parent here - so hope you accept my ignorant opinion - but I agree. It is the neighborhood schools that "teach to the tests" which have lower standards than ATS has for its students. ATS' success is primarily due to the expectations and standards it sets for its students and the curriculum and instructional methods it employs. Lower the bar, kids will perform accordingly. Raise the bar, kids will perform accordingly. The rest of ATS' success is due to the students and families who choose to go there, who appreciate and want those higher standards and proven instruction methods and curricula, who don't mind or even value the structure and discipline and return to their neighborhood schools if they don't.

Schools teach to the test because if they didn’t their scores and accreditation suffer. They don’t have the luxury of a motivated parents for EVERY student like they have at ATS. You have incarcerated parents, foster kids, ESL, low income, on and on and like zero of that at ATS

PP here who said that ATS does not teach to the test. I am unclear as to whether you are responding to me or the PP after me. I am not judging other schools. I have no idea what they do. I am responding to the PP who said that ATS teaches to the test. That’s not what ATS does. Simple as that. Also I think everyone on this thread agrees that part of ATS’ success is do to motivated parents. I don’t think that’s something anyone would deny. I do have concerns over what you are saying though. Are you saying that neighborhood schools should not aim for a higher teaching standard? Also for the record, I don’t think that neighborhood schools teach to the test. I don’t see PP saying that either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They should get rid of HB all together and make it a HS.

How does sending 250 kids back to 5 middle schools (so, adding 50 kids per school) and then pulling 250 kids out of three high schools (so, 85 kids per school) to go the Heights building do anything about crowding? Or even if you went up to, say, adding 300 kids. Across 4 grades. How does reducing the number of kids in each grade at Wakefield, W-L, and Yorktown by 25 do ANYTHING, really, about overcrowding?

We spent $30 million for 600 WL seats, so that change is worth $15M

I hope you never get involved in policymaking

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They should get rid of HB all together and make it a HS.

How does sending 250 kids back to 5 middle schools (so, adding 50 kids per school) and then pulling 250 kids out of three high schools (so, 85 kids per school) to go the Heights building do anything about crowding? Or even if you went up to, say, adding 300 kids. Across 4 grades. How does reducing the number of kids in each grade at Wakefield, W-L, and Yorktown by 25 do ANYTHING, really, about overcrowding?

We spent $30 million for 600 WL seats, so that change is worth $15M

I hope you never get involved in policymaking

So you counter my argument with actual numbers with an ad hominid attack? Thanks for playing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ll say it again — I don’t think we should get rid of the special programs, I think we should find a way to offer more of them. Create a second ATS and house it at whichever of the neighborhood elementary schools is currently most underenrolled. Those parents would be IRATE but all the parents who get into the new ATS would be thrilled. Then use part of the WL building for a new HB Woodlawn. That way W-L doesn’t have to be so big and APS doesn’t have to find additional space for a new HB Woodlawn. Just use the WL space.

+ 1 million

Or they could just improve the instruction at all the other schools so every kid can have "the best."

ATS and HB are self-selecting populations. In the case of ATS, you're judging a program by its standardized test results when everything about ATS is leading up to getting good standardized test results. That's not everyone's goal.

HB has the second most affluent student population among the high schools. I think most high school kids would benefit from more independence, but let's not confuse correspondence with causation here.

Here we go again. A person who’s kids don’t know to ATS claiming that they know what ATS does. No ATS doesn’t teach to the test. The reason they have such high scores is because they believe structured literacy and focus on phonics and phonemic awareness as opposed to balanced literacy. While the rest of APS was using Lucy Calkins and does phonics on the fly, ATS was using Wilson’s reading and Heggerty. They also have an ELA curriculum that they made that is knowledge rich (focus on social studies). They were so successful in fact that APS adopted Heggerty a few years ago for all schools. Now the entire country is moving towards structured literacy & knowledge rich ELA curriculums. Virginia passed a literacy act and APS adopted CKLA which is phonics based and is knowledge rich. Hopefully this means that the quality of all APS schools goes up. ATS also has a two hour ELA block as opposed to a much shorter block in other APS schools.

Not an ATS parent here - so hope you accept my ignorant opinion - but I agree. It is the neighborhood schools that "teach to the tests" which have lower standards than ATS has for its students. ATS' success is primarily due to the expectations and standards it sets for its students and the curriculum and instructional methods it employs. Lower the bar, kids will perform accordingly. Raise the bar, kids will perform accordingly. The rest of ATS' success is due to the students and families who choose to go there, who appreciate and want those higher standards and proven instruction methods and curricula, who don't mind or even value the structure and discipline and return to their neighborhood schools if they don't.

Schools teach to the test because if they didn’t their scores and accreditation suffer. They don’t have the luxury of a motivated parents for EVERY student like they have at ATS. You have incarcerated parents, foster kids, ESL, low income, on and on and like zero of that at ATS

PP here who said that ATS does not teach to the test. I am unclear as to whether you are responding to me or the PP after me. I am not judging other schools. I have no idea what they do. I am responding to the PP who said that ATS teaches to the test. That’s not what ATS does. Simple as that. Also I think everyone on this thread agrees that part of ATS’ success is do to motivated parents. I don’t think that’s something anyone would deny. I do have concerns over what you are saying though. Are you saying that neighborhood schools should not aim for a higher teaching standard? Also for the record, I don’t think that neighborhood schools teach to the test. I don’t see PP saying that either.

Teachers have limited bandwidth and resources; they are incentivized to teach for the test if there is a risk the scores will be low — there are penalties and bonuses at stake. There are no incentives at neighborhood schools for advancing kids beyond the SOL minimum. If all your 3rd graders read Shakespeare and go to Harvard, it does nothing for the teacher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ll say it again — I don’t think we should get rid of the special programs, I think we should find a way to offer more of them. Create a second ATS and house it at whichever of the neighborhood elementary schools is currently most underenrolled. Those parents would be IRATE but all the parents who get into the new ATS would be thrilled. Then use part of the WL building for a new HB Woodlawn. That way W-L doesn’t have to be so big and APS doesn’t have to find additional space for a new HB Woodlawn. Just use the WL space.

+ 1 million

Or they could just improve the instruction at all the other schools so every kid can have "the best."

ATS and HB are self-selecting populations. In the case of ATS, you're judging a program by its standardized test results when everything about ATS is leading up to getting good standardized test results. That's not everyone's goal.

HB has the second most affluent student population among the high schools. I think most high school kids would benefit from more independence, but let's not confuse correspondence with causation here.

Here we go again. A person who’s kids don’t know to ATS claiming that they know what ATS does. No ATS doesn’t teach to the test. The reason they have such high scores is because they believe structured literacy and focus on phonics and phonemic awareness as opposed to balanced literacy. While the rest of APS was using Lucy Calkins and does phonics on the fly, ATS was using Wilson’s reading and Heggerty. They also have an ELA curriculum that they made that is knowledge rich (focus on social studies). They were so successful in fact that APS adopted Heggerty a few years ago for all schools. Now the entire country is moving towards structured literacy & knowledge rich ELA curriculums. Virginia passed a literacy act and APS adopted CKLA which is phonics based and is knowledge rich. Hopefully this means that the quality of all APS schools goes up. ATS also has a two hour ELA block as opposed to a much shorter block in other APS schools.

Do the same people who insist that ATS families have plenty of friends in the neighborhood also insist that the only way to know about ATS is to have kids who go there?

Huh? What are you talking about? I am specifically responding to PP’s insinuating that the reason ATS students do well is because ATS teaches to the test. How would PP know that ATS teaches to the test if PP has no experience with the school?

How are you defining "experience with the school"? People who don't send their kids to ATS have friends who do. Parents talk about school. And what makes one parent's socks roll up and down makes another parent vow never to send their kids to a place like that.

If the only people who can comment on ATS are the parents of kids attending ATS, you're going to hear nothing but odes to the wonders of ATS, because parents who aren't happy will pull their kids out.

[Anonymous]

People can comment about ATS all they want. The problem is people who do not send their kids to ATS yet claim to understand the motivations of why parents send their kids to ATS (apparently it’s because ATS has a waitlist and they love the exclusivity). Then you have the parents who claim to know what goes on in ATS classrooms such as the PP who claims that ATS does well because it teaches to the test. Look at all the threads out there. ATS parents are on the defensive trying to explain why they send their kids there and why they like the school. If they say why they like the school they are attacked by others who either claim they are lying or claim that by saying they like ATS they are somehow dissing their neighborhood school. ATS parents apparently are all evil elitists who hate their neighborhood schools and want to send their kids to ATS because they enjoy the exclusivity and want a private school experience and not pay for it. This entire debate is tiresome and circular. One has to wonder why all these parents have so much anger towards a school their kids don’t go to and profess so much knowledge over a school they don’t go to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ll say it again — I don’t think we should get rid of the special programs, I think we should find a way to offer more of them. Create a second ATS and house it at whichever of the neighborhood elementary schools is currently most underenrolled. Those parents would be IRATE but all the parents who get into the new ATS would be thrilled. Then use part of the WL building for a new HB Woodlawn. That way W-L doesn’t have to be so big and APS doesn’t have to find additional space for a new HB Woodlawn. Just use the WL space.

+ 1 million

Or they could just improve the instruction at all the other schools so every kid can have "the best."

ATS and HB are self-selecting populations. In the case of ATS, you're judging a program by its standardized test results when everything about ATS is leading up to getting good standardized test results. That's not everyone's goal.

HB has the second most affluent student population among the high schools. I think most high school kids would benefit from more independence, but let's not confuse correspondence with causation here.

Also are you daft? Obviously a parent who pulled their kid out of ATS has experience with the school. You know who doesn’t? The parent who’s kid didn’t get into ATS and is now so bitter about it that all she does is talk about how ATS parents, ATS kids and the school itself sucks on DCUM.

Here we go again. A person who’s kids don’t know to ATS claiming that they know what ATS does. No ATS doesn’t teach to the test. The reason they have such high scores is because they believe structured literacy and focus on phonics and phonemic awareness as opposed to balanced literacy. While the rest of APS was using Lucy Calkins and does phonics on the fly, ATS was using Wilson’s reading and Heggerty. They also have an ELA curriculum that they made that is knowledge rich (focus on social studies). They were so successful in fact that APS adopted Heggerty a few years ago for all schools. Now the entire country is moving towards structured literacy & knowledge rich ELA curriculums. Virginia passed a literacy act and APS adopted CKLA which is phonics based and is knowledge rich. Hopefully this means that the quality of all APS schools goes up. ATS also has a two hour ELA block as opposed to a much shorter block in other APS schools.

Do the same people who insist that ATS families have plenty of friends in the neighborhood also insist that the only way to know about ATS is to have kids who go there?

Huh? What are you talking about? I am specifically responding to PP’s insinuating that the reason ATS students do well is because ATS teaches to the test. How would PP know that ATS teaches to the test if PP has no experience with the school?

How are you defining "experience with the school"? People who don't send their kids to ATS have friends who do. Parents talk about school. And what makes one parent's socks roll up and down makes another parent vow never to send their kids to a place like that.

If the only people who can comment on ATS are the parents of kids attending ATS, you're going to hear nothing but odes to the wonders of ATS, because parents who aren't happy will pull their kids out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People can comment about ATS all they want. The problem is people who do not send their kids to ATS yet claim to understand the motivations of why parents send their kids to ATS (apparently it’s because ATS has a waitlist and they love the exclusivity). Then you have the parents who claim to know what goes on in ATS classrooms such as the PP who claims that ATS does well because it teaches to the test. Look at all the threads out there. ATS parents are on the defensive trying to explain why they send their kids there and why they like the school. If they say why they like the school they are attacked by others who either claim they are lying or claim that by saying they like ATS they are somehow dissing their neighborhood school. ATS parents apparently are all evil elitists who hate their neighborhood schools and want to send their kids to ATS because they enjoy the exclusivity and want a private school experience and not pay for it. This entire debate is tiresome and circular. One has to wonder why all these parents have so much anger towards a school their kids don’t go to and profess so much knowledge over a school they don’t go to.

Also are you daft? Obviously a parent who pulled their kid out of ATS has experience with the school. You know who doesn’t? The parent who’s kid didn’t get into ATS and is now so bitter about it that all she does is talk about how ATS parents, ATS kids and the school itself sucks on DCUM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ll say it again — I don’t think we should get rid of the special programs, I think we should find a way to offer more of them. Create a second ATS and house it at whichever of the neighborhood elementary schools is currently most underenrolled. Those parents would be IRATE but all the parents who get into the new ATS would be thrilled. Then use part of the WL building for a new HB Woodlawn. That way W-L doesn’t have to be so big and APS doesn’t have to find additional space for a new HB Woodlawn. Just use the WL space.

+ 1 million

Or they could just improve the instruction at all the other schools so every kid can have "the best."

ATS and HB are self-selecting populations. In the case of ATS, you're judging a program by its standardized test results when everything about ATS is leading up to getting good standardized test results. That's not everyone's goal.

HB has the second most affluent student population among the high schools. I think most high school kids would benefit from more independence, but let's not confuse correspondence with causation here.

Here we go again. A person who’s kids don’t know to ATS claiming that they know what ATS does. No ATS doesn’t teach to the test. The reason they have such high scores is because they believe structured literacy and focus on phonics and phonemic awareness as opposed to balanced literacy. While the rest of APS was using Lucy Calkins and does phonics on the fly, ATS was using Wilson’s reading and Heggerty. They also have an ELA curriculum that they made that is knowledge rich (focus on social studies). They were so successful in fact that APS adopted Heggerty a few years ago for all schools. Now the entire country is moving towards structured literacy & knowledge rich ELA curriculums. Virginia passed a literacy act and APS adopted CKLA which is phonics based and is knowledge rich. Hopefully this means that the quality of all APS schools goes up. ATS also has a two hour ELA block as opposed to a much shorter block in other APS schools.

Not an ATS parent here - so hope you accept my ignorant opinion - but I agree. It is the neighborhood schools that "teach to the tests" which have lower standards than ATS has for its students. ATS' success is primarily due to the expectations and standards it sets for its students and the curriculum and instructional methods it employs. Lower the bar, kids will perform accordingly. Raise the bar, kids will perform accordingly. The rest of ATS' success is due to the students and families who choose to go there, who appreciate and want those higher standards and proven instruction methods and curricula, who don't mind or even value the structure and discipline and return to their neighborhood schools if they don't.

Schools teach to the test because if they didn’t their scores and accreditation suffer. They don’t have the luxury of a motivated parents for EVERY student like they have at ATS. You have incarcerated parents, foster kids, ESL, low income, on and on and like zero of that at ATS

PP here who said that ATS does not teach to the test. I am unclear as to whether you are responding to me or the PP after me. I am not judging other schools. I have no idea what they do. I am responding to the PP who said that ATS teaches to the test. That’s not what ATS does. Simple as that. Also I think everyone on this thread agrees that part of ATS’ success is do to motivated parents. I don’t think that’s something anyone would deny. I do have concerns over what you are saying though. Are you saying that neighborhood schools should not aim for a higher teaching standard? Also for the record, I don’t think that neighborhood schools teach to the test. I don’t see PP saying that either.

Teachers have limited bandwidth and resources; they are incentivized to teach for the test if there is a risk the scores will be low — there are penalties and bonuses at stake. There are no incentives at neighborhood schools for advancing kids beyond the SOL minimum. If all your 3rd graders read Shakespeare and go to Harvard, it does nothing for the teacher.

Ok so what is it people? Why does ATS suck? Does it suck because it teaches to the test? Or does it suck because it doesn’t do any hard work - it full of parents who are motivated whereas the parents who enroll their kids in neighborhood schools apparently don’t care about their kids education? Which argument are we going with here? Is the only reason parents apply to ATS is because the waitlist is long and they like the exclusivity? Or do they apply because they want their kids to be with motivated parents who make the school unfairly better?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ll say it again — I don’t think we should get rid of the special programs, I think we should find a way to offer more of them. Create a second ATS and house it at whichever of the neighborhood elementary schools is currently most underenrolled. Those parents would be IRATE but all the parents who get into the new ATS would be thrilled. Then use part of the WL building for a new HB Woodlawn. That way W-L doesn’t have to be so big and APS doesn’t have to find additional space for a new HB Woodlawn. Just use the WL space.

+ 1 million

Or they could just improve the instruction at all the other schools so every kid can have "the best."

ATS and HB are self-selecting populations. In the case of ATS, you're judging a program by its standardized test results when everything about ATS is leading up to getting good standardized test results. That's not everyone's goal.

HB has the second most affluent student population among the high schools. I think most high school kids would benefit from more independence, but let's not confuse correspondence with causation here.

ATS and HB also have teachers who applied to teach there. The requirements to teach at those schools are different -- at HB, for instance, they don't have guidance counselors. Middle school teachers are the counselors for their homeroom, and HS teachers take on a counseling load for 6-8 students including college counseling. Working in a school with different behavior standards than regular schools also requires different teaching styles. You can't just have every school change to the ATS or HB model.

HB model, probably not. But ATS' "model" isn't structurally different just because teachers apply to work there. They have the same structure as any other elementary school (except Montessori with its extra staffing and specific teacher training requirements). So I disagree that you can't make all the elementary schools more like ATS - it's the curriculum and instruction, bringing kids up to the high standards rather than "meeting each child where they are" and setting standards accordingly. A student who is behind but makes "one year's progress" will still be behind next year.

They actually have a different model than many other (all?) schools in the upper grades, they don’t departmentalize.

Not PP but I definitely agree that more schools can become like ATS curriculum wise. I think this is already happening when it comes to structured literacy. I am not sure how this would apply to curriculum delivery. For example does CKLA require direct instruction which is the mode of instruction at ATS? (As a side note, see this article advocating for direct instruction: https://www.forbes.com/sites/nataliewexler/2021/03/24/the-power-and-pitfalls-of-letting-students-learn-through-experience/?sh=cb047164b23d ) . Also what about homework? Is this something all elementary schools should push or should that remain an ATS thing? While APS is moving towards structured literacy and hence becoming more like ATS in that regard it is moving away from homework. Another thing that distinguishes ATS is the focus on good behavior, character learning etc.

Also would you mind elaborating on ATS not departmentalizing? I am an ATS parent so I’m not sure how it is elsewhere. But my impression is all schools have a homeroom teacher who teaches ELA/math/social studies and then specials teachers.

in other schools upper elementary students have a different teacher for literacy and math

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ll say it again — I don’t think we should get rid of the special programs, I think we should find a way to offer more of them. Create a second ATS and house it at whichever of the neighborhood elementary schools is currently most underenrolled. Those parents would be IRATE but all the parents who get into the new ATS would be thrilled. Then use part of the WL building for a new HB Woodlawn. That way W-L doesn’t have to be so big and APS doesn’t have to find additional space for a new HB Woodlawn. Just use the WL space.

+ 1 million

Or they could just improve the instruction at all the other schools so every kid can have "the best."

It's not just about being "the best." HB has a particular model that works well for some and doesn't work well for others. There are kids who get that lottery seat then transfer out after a couple years, or more likely for HS, for many reasons.

The issue is they don't have enough seats for those who do want it. That's why it's a great idea to use WL to create those seats in a new HB program. Neither transforming all HS to the HB model nor getting rid of HB altogether would be an ideal outcome.

To emphasize your "for many reasons," this isn't usually due to methodology. Yes, some find it not a good fit; but often any who jump ship for high school do so because of HBW's lack of sports and marching band - not because the academic model doesn't suit them. Also, the model isn't what's attracting families the way it did originally. What's attracting families is HB's reputation and its size. Just about every single parent of an HB student or wanna-be-student has cited the smaller environment being better for their kid, for the more individualized attention and teacher-student relationships that smaller size brings. The second-most cited reason is because their kid is "different" or "quirky" or would be more welcomed and emotionally supported there than in their assigned high school. Not a single one ever mentions the HBW instructional model as their reason for applying.

Well, I just don't believe you've talked to every single family whose kid has transferred out of HBW. I have talked to some who have cited fewer choices of courses, as an example.

But say you're right - are you arguing against creating another HB? Why?