Removing and Renaming Confederate Statues, Schools, Streets, etc: Why?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the same reason Germany and Italy don’t have Hitler Boulevard or Mussolini Drive.

+1000
This is everything. End of thread right there.

I want to push back a bit and say there's actually more. The premise of the OP is that these names were once OK but no longer are. These names were never OK. This is not like the town of East Hamburg, NY, deciding to rename itself "Orchard Park" during WWI. Or french fries becoming "Freedom Fries" during the first Gulf War. There was never a time when Robert E. Lee was not a polarizing figure and a symbol of hate and racism.

[phone]

Ah, but there is the fact that Germany had the Nurenberg trials. What does U.S. do but welcome the traitors back into Congress.

There is a difference between wanting to exterminate people and treating them as property. Both dehumanizing and neither worthy of commemoration, but also not the same.

Wow, just wow...

If I may ask, what motivates you to even try to defend the utterly indefensible racist legacy of the South like that?

Also, remember this thread is about taking down statues and street names of racist criminals that have gone down in infamy. Please tell what made you get up this morning and take the other side on that issue?

I'm all in favor of changing Confederate names on schools and streets, and removing statutes.

I don't agree that slavery is the equivalent of the Holocaust, which is what other posters invariably and quickly insist upon. Whether you like it or not there are degrees of mistreating other human beings and not respecting their basic human rights, and slavery (a widespread, but reprehensible, practice around the world) is not the same as a genocide that involved the deliberate murder of 6 million people.

So my question to you is what motivates you to compare a Robert E. Lee to a Hitler, or quite possibly to call anyone with whom you disagree a Nazi? Is your education so lacking, or your sense of moral superiority so profound, that you think you can resort to such rhetorical cheap tricks and never get questioned?

One group of people decided it was their right to do whatever they wanted to with and to another group of people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the same reason Germany and Italy don’t have Hitler Boulevard or Mussolini Drive.

+1000
This is everything. End of thread right there.

I want to push back a bit and say there's actually more. The premise of the OP is that these names were once OK but no longer are. These names were never OK. This is not like the town of East Hamburg, NY, deciding to rename itself "Orchard Park" during WWI. Or french fries becoming "Freedom Fries" during the first Gulf War. There was never a time when Robert E. Lee was not a polarizing figure and a symbol of hate and racism.

[phone]

Ah, but there is the fact that Germany had the Nurenberg trials. What does U.S. do but welcome the traitors back into Congress.

There is a difference between wanting to exterminate people and treating them as property. Both dehumanizing and neither worthy of commemoration, but also not the same.

I’m not sure what you see as being a crucial difference — but you might pause and ask yourself why forced labor on the way to exterminating people and exterminating people in the process of using them as forced labor feels like an important distinction for you to make.

Because slavery, while inhumane and despicable, was not the same as murder.

Murder, rape and mutilation are all part and parcel of slavery. 2 million people are estimated to have died on the middle passage alone. Just forcing people to America slaughtered millions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the same reason Germany and Italy don’t have Hitler Boulevard or Mussolini Drive.

+1000
This is everything. End of thread right there.

I want to push back a bit and say there's actually more. The premise of the OP is that these names were once OK but no longer are. These names were never OK. This is not like the town of East Hamburg, NY, deciding to rename itself "Orchard Park" during WWI. Or french fries becoming "Freedom Fries" during the first Gulf War. There was never a time when Robert E. Lee was not a polarizing figure and a symbol of hate and racism.

[phone]

Ah, but there is the fact that Germany had the Nurenberg trials. What does U.S. do but welcome the traitors back into Congress.

There is a difference between wanting to exterminate people and treating them as property. Both dehumanizing and neither worthy of commemoration, but also not the same.

Wow, just wow...

If I may ask, what motivates you to even try to defend the utterly indefensible racist legacy of the South like that?

Also, remember this thread is about taking down statues and street names of racist criminals that have gone down in infamy. Please tell what made you get up this morning and take the other side on that issue?

I'm all in favor of changing Confederate names on schools and streets, and removing statutes.

I don't agree that slavery is the equivalent of the Holocaust, which is what other posters invariably and quickly insist upon. Whether you like it or not there are degrees of mistreating other human beings and not respecting their basic human rights, and slavery (a widespread, but reprehensible, practice around the world) is not the same as a genocide that involved the deliberate murder of 6 million people.

So my question to you is what motivates you to compare a Robert E. Lee to a Hitler, or quite possibly to call anyone with whom you disagree a Nazi? Is your education so lacking, or your sense of moral superiority so profound, that you think you can resort to such rhetorical cheap tricks and never get questioned?

I don't see the point of comparing these two atrocities at all. And the result of such comparisons -- intended or otherwise -- is often to minimize the grotesqueness of slavery in the United States. Also, for what it's worth, you're broadening the scope of the comparison from the Holocaust (one event) to the practice of slavery, rather than the specific period of slavery here, which could have a similar effect because it avoids looking at the brutal details of how American enslavers behaved.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I like people pointing out how incredibly brief the Confederacy was. So choosing to highlight this particular part of history sends a very clear message. Heck the TV show Grey's Anatomy has lasted over 5 times longer than the confederacy.

If we're arguing about other wars, we don't have as many things named after Generals from WWI or WWII either. Where are are statues to people like Dick Winters?

Because the truth is, it's not about history at all. It's about sending a racial message.

Exactly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I personally support keeping them, not because I stand for what they supported, but it’s an influential piece of history that is many ways unique to Virginia and a reminder of how far we’ve came.

+1. Like it or not, it is part of our history. The bad has to be recognized as well as the good.

Recognized? Acknowledged in a museum or history books.

But no need to name streets after trash.

Recognizing and celebrating are not the same thing. Why in the world would anyone celebrate the bad in our history?? Ha ha, how absurd. Recognizing the bad is having statues of slaves shackled and on bent knees, which we do have and which are not being taken down.

Statues and street names are celebrations.

No need to celebrate Confederate trash. Period.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the same reason Germany and Italy don’t have Hitler Boulevard or Mussolini Drive.

+1000
This is everything. End of thread right there.

I want to push back a bit and say there's actually more. The premise of the OP is that these names were once OK but no longer are. These names were never OK. This is not like the town of East Hamburg, NY, deciding to rename itself "Orchard Park" during WWI. Or french fries becoming "Freedom Fries" during the first Gulf War. There was never a time when Robert E. Lee was not a polarizing figure and a symbol of hate and racism.

[phone]

Ah, but there is the fact that Germany had the Nurenberg trials. What does U.S. do but welcome the traitors back into Congress.

There is a difference between wanting to exterminate people and treating them as property. Both dehumanizing and neither worthy of commemoration, but also not the same.

I’m not sure what you see as being a crucial difference — but you might pause and ask yourself why forced labor on the way to exterminating people and exterminating people in the process of using them as forced labor feels like an important distinction for you to make.

Because slavery, while inhumane and despicable, was not the same as murder.

WTF? What do you think people were enslaved? Through violence and death.

Slavery was taking away their lives. No “better” than murder.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the same reason Germany and Italy don’t have Hitler Boulevard or Mussolini Drive.

+1000
This is everything. End of thread right there.

I want to push back a bit and say there's actually more. The premise of the OP is that these names were once OK but no longer are. These names were never OK. This is not like the town of East Hamburg, NY, deciding to rename itself "Orchard Park" during WWI. Or french fries becoming "Freedom Fries" during the first Gulf War. There was never a time when Robert E. Lee was not a polarizing figure and a symbol of hate and racism.

[phone]

Ah, but there is the fact that Germany had the Nurenberg trials. What does U.S. do but welcome the traitors back into Congress.

There is a difference between wanting to exterminate people and treating them as property. Both dehumanizing and neither worthy of commemoration, but also not the same.

Wow, just wow...

If I may ask, what motivates you to even try to defend the utterly indefensible racist legacy of the South like that?

Also, remember this thread is about taking down statues and street names of racist criminals that have gone down in infamy. Please tell what made you get up this morning and take the other side on that issue?

I'm all in favor of changing Confederate names on schools and streets, and removing statutes.

I don't agree that slavery is the equivalent of the Holocaust, which is what other posters invariably and quickly insist upon. Whether you like it or not there are degrees of mistreating other human beings and not respecting their basic human rights, and slavery (a widespread, but reprehensible, practice around the world) is not the same as a genocide that involved the deliberate murder of 6 million people.

So my question to you is what motivates you to compare a Robert E. Lee to a Hitler, or quite possibly to call anyone with whom you disagree a Nazi? Is your education so lacking, or your sense of moral superiority so profound, that you think you can resort to such rhetorical cheap tricks and never get questioned?

REL contributed to the deaths of 620k Americans.

All in the effort to keep 4 million people enslaved.

I don’t really see how he was any “better” than Hitler.

[Anonymous]

Got to love the slavery evil but not nazi-level evil PP. Have one second of self-reflection my friend and consider why you consider taking some lives worse than taking others.

Racism underlies all the fig leaves people try to put on our confederacy/slavery legacy. For some if is open, most just under the surface, and some it is hidden so deep so even they may not realize without self-examination.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Got to love the slavery evil but not nazi-level evil PP. Have one second of self-reflection my friend and consider why you consider taking some lives worse than taking others.

Racism underlies all the fig leaves people try to put on our confederacy/slavery legacy. For some if is open, most just under the surface, and some it is hidden so deep so even they may not realize without self-examination.

Exactly.

[Anonymous]

My confederate ancestors were slave owners and, judging by my family members, no one was really sorry about it until the 1970s, a few of us who are in our 50s now.

I think all the statues and names should come down. They glorify a not glorious past, and help to recruit new generations into at least whitewashing,if not hate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Virginia has a long history of being a southern state and has a deep history with southern culture and ties to the confederacy. Northern Virginia in particular, with the Arlington Cemetery’s connection with Robert E Lee, whom led the Army of Northern Virginia, and the wide spread usage of confederates like Stonewall Jackson High School in PWCS and Robert E Lee High School in FCPS seems to have continually played a part in modern Virginia history throughout the state. Not to mention highways and streets dedicated to Confederates and segregationists like Robert E Lee and Harry Byrd still remain.

This unique attatchment to our history seems to be most or entirely prevalent in Virginia as opposed to DC or Maryland, and has never been a problem for the past century to half a century, through progressive movements and such. However, ever since the slain of George Floyd and the riots in 2020, there seems to have been a new attempt to pit the blame on the “monuments” that apparently glorize these views, and to radically erase them from history and forget about them once and for all. I seem to check google maps and am seemingly forced to learn new road names Like Langston Blvd in Arlington on a weekly basis. From my perspective, being a native of Fauquier county in southern country Virginia and spending lots of time in rural Loudoun and Prince William county, it’s a great change to what I’m used to.

Why the call for action now? Are we really suppose the blame people whom lived in an era where slavery and segregation was an unarguable stance that was unanimous among all politicians? What good does it really do, as it seemingly hasn’t seen a decrease in any sort of statistic that they intended to target. Do you support such action against these historical landmarks? Would love to know what the general consensus is, especially from other Virginians.

This telling completely leaves out the voices of the enslaved. Teach the history. Teach the horror of white supremacy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Virginia has a long history of being a southern state and has a deep history with southern culture and ties to the confederacy. Northern Virginia in particular, with the Arlington Cemetery’s connection with Robert E Lee, whom led the Army of Northern Virginia, and the wide spread usage of confederates like Stonewall Jackson High School in PWCS and Robert E Lee High School in FCPS seems to have continually played a part in modern Virginia history throughout the state. Not to mention highways and streets dedicated to Confederates and segregationists like Robert E Lee and Harry Byrd still remain.

This unique attatchment to our history seems to be most or entirely prevalent in Virginia as opposed to DC or Maryland, and has never been a problem for the past century to half a century, through progressive movements and such. However, ever since the slain of George Floyd and the riots in 2020, there seems to have been a new attempt to pit the blame on the “monuments” that apparently glorize these views, and to radically erase them from history and forget about them once and for all. I seem to check google maps and am seemingly forced to learn new road names Like Langston Blvd in Arlington on a weekly basis. From my perspective, being a native of Fauquier county in southern country Virginia and spending lots of time in rural Loudoun and Prince William county, it’s a great change to what I’m used to.

Why the call for action now? Are we really suppose the blame people whom lived in an era where slavery and segregation was an unarguable stance that was unanimous among all politicians? What good does it really do, as it seemingly hasn’t seen a decrease in any sort of statistic that they intended to target. Do you support such action against these historical landmarks? Would love to know what the general consensus is, especially from other Virginians.

This telling completely leaves out the voices of the enslaved. Teach the history. Teach the horror of white supremacy.

+1
The slaves were Americans too (the idea of fractional citizens is ridiculous.) Tell the history and give voice to all Americans.

[Anonymous]

Really digging the "hey at least they weren't Nazis" standard for keeping up statutes/street names.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is shameful we ever had statues to those treasonous traitors. The reckoning is long overdue.

They weren't treasonous traitors. Stick to facts.

I don't mind taking down the statues but there's a lot of recent revisionist history from both sides.

Np How do you figure they weren't traitors? They wanted to secede from the US. That is the very definition. They took an oath to support the US and the constitution, not the southern states

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My confederate ancestors were slave owners and, judging by my family members, no one was really sorry about it until the 1970s, a few of us who are in our 50s now.

I think all the statues and names should come down. They glorify a not glorious past, and help to recruit new generations into at least whitewashing,if not hate.

That is also what Robert E. Lee V and Robert W. Lee IV believe. Take them down.