What is the real reason MCPS uses Lottery for Middle School Magnet Program

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Define qualified...if you want to have a program for the top students, there is always a group at the top.

This is the fundamental misunderstanding of the CES program. It is not supposed to be for the "top students" in the school system. It was designed to meet the academic needs of students whose needs couldn't be met in their home elementary school. This really doesn't mean the top academic performers, it means students who learn differently, at a faster pace than their peers, and who thrive on independence and complex thinking. As more and more students over the years demonstrated they would benefit from the enriched curriculum, they began offering that curriculum at home schools, rather than shipping an entire class of 4th graders to a different school.

If parents stopped treating the CES as a coveted prize to be won by a select few students, and instead focused on advocating for better enriched curriculum (and GT trained teachers) at their school, everyone would be better off.

All lecture aside, Did you stop to think about how does lottery help to meet the needs of kids who are not selected into the program by lottery? if you argue that their needs can be met locally at homeschool, then why can't MCPS meet the needs of other kids at their home school? Why do you even need a CES program?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s really a bummer they can just do leveled classrooms anymore. Then kids stay in their homeschools and get enriched instruction there. Sorting by ability is out though, sadly. It’s a mess.

Our ES essentially does this because of compacted math and ELC. There are some kids in the one and not the other, but mostly it's a cohort. And at the lower levels they do group kids of similar performance levels into classroom clusters so that they can small-group or enrich together. Parents at our ES often actually tend to turn down CES invitations because so many things (to be clear, not all) from the CES curriculum are already going on inside our regular school. Our admin also works at all levels (including the littles) to identify kids who are good candidates for enrichment or faster study and to meet their needs.

I bring this up because I think it is a good middle course between a not-feasible massive size expansion of the CES programs and the near impossibility of conducting a completely fair and constructive assessment of students from a wide variety of personal circumstances. It requires, however, a really strong leadership team that is constantly re-inventing how to best serve the families. How we do things at our school changes in big and little ways pretty much every year.

It will be helpful to know what ES are you talking about? Which middle school do they feed into? Also if MCPS BOE is competent, they can adopt and adapt best practices around the world to meet the needs of students and not necessarily reinvent the approach.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Define qualified...if you want to have a program for the top students, there is always a group at the top.

This is the fundamental misunderstanding of the CES program. It is not supposed to be for the "top students" in the school system. It was designed to meet the academic needs of students whose needs couldn't be met in their home elementary school. This really doesn't mean the top academic performers, it means students who learn differently, at a faster pace than their peers, and who thrive on independence and complex thinking. As more and more students over the years demonstrated they would benefit from the enriched curriculum, they began offering that curriculum at home schools, rather than shipping an entire class of 4th graders to a different school.

If parents stopped treating the CES as a coveted prize to be won by a select few students, and instead focused on advocating for better enriched curriculum (and GT trained teachers) at their school, everyone would be better off.

+1 If most students are at a more accelerated pace, the teacher can go through the curriculum quicker. But if it's like at my DC's school where she's one of a tiny group of more advanced students, so that the teacher has to go at a slower pace, it makes more sense that tiny group of students who are not being challenged at all to get sent to an accelerated program.

Also, the lottery is in place in part because demand far exceeds supply, and opens up the program to students whose parents or guardians are not as much "in the know." Diversity benefits the accelerated program.

If demand exceeds supply, increase supply to get to an eqilibrium. I am not sure why do we have to talk about laws of economics here? MCPS should focus on meeting the needs of all kids not just select few. Do you agree?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DCUM is so nice right now without all the trolls.

We have at least 4 right now. Maybe I'm missing one.

1) lottery troll
2) restorative justice troll
3) SRO troll
4) anti-vax anti-mask troll

Items 2, 3, 4 are just crazy-town. Not really thrilled about the lottery but it's also not the end of the world.

For the children who could have been world-class competitors, it certainly didn't do them any favors. Montgomery County is not in a bubble. Either the children are ready for global competition, or they are not. If you think a lottery will make any difference, you're wrong. If anything it will increase the equity difference.

Before the lottery, kids knew that only the absolute best were selected. If a kid worked hard or was a savant, they won the golden ticket. It meant something.

Now the Magnet program is nothing but a Las Vegas casino, and just as tacky. The Magnet program now teaches to the class anchors. This only breeds resentment amongst peers and demoralizes the students dragging everyone else behind. In the mean time, the local CES now have the majority of high-flyers. The parents who can are just paying for tutors, special program classes, and other things that leapfrog their children ahead of the others.

And the assessment is off. You forgot a few trolls as well. "The only reason why kids get 99+ on CogAT and get into the Magnet program is because the parents send the kid to prep courses troll", or "the crazy boundary maps look fine troll", or the MCPS "Everything is Awesome" troll?

You can ignore these threads if they bother you that much. Parents want to talk about this. If you want to make a point - make it - or move on.

You mean inconvenient truth teller.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Any MCPS kid that can perform anywhere near the top X% ~WITHOUT good parenting at home~ should absolutely be allowed into the magnets.

Not everyone supplements with those CoGAT prep schools. Not everyone has parents home on the weekends or even evenings. There are MANY kids going home and feeding themselves and taking care of their schoolwork while their parent(s) work(s) until 9PM or later.

When those kids can get anywhere near succeeding then MCPS should be celebrated for at least putting their names in the lottery hat

It takes a society to raise the future generation. MCPS should address these issues specifically to encourage learning and provide opportunities but not exclude other kids who perform at par through lottery. This is a sad state of affairs at MCPS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any MCPS kid that can perform anywhere near the top X% ~WITHOUT good parenting at home~ should absolutely be allowed into the magnets.

Not everyone supplements with those CoGAT prep schools. Not everyone has parents home on the weekends or even evenings. There are MANY kids going home and feeding themselves and taking care of their schoolwork while their parent(s) work(s) until 9PM or later.

When those kids can get anywhere near succeeding then MCPS should be celebrated for at least putting their names in the lottery hat

I saw on the AAP board that 30% of TJ's class came from just one of the many local cram schools so have to believe it's about the same here. This suggests that over half of the students being admitted to these programs had an edge over those who did not invest in prep.

Every kid is talented it is just that some focus their energy on academics and some in arts, sports and games. The more time they spend in activities, they perform better in those specific areas. Instead of supporting all the kids to reach their potential, MCPS is discriminating against some students using lottery system that is not even transparent in terms of process. BOE is a total failure

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Define qualified...if you want to have a program for the top students, there is always a group at the top.

This is the fundamental misunderstanding of the CES program. It is not supposed to be for the "top students" in the school system. It was designed to meet the academic needs of students whose needs couldn't be met in their home elementary school. This really doesn't mean the top academic performers, it means students who learn differently, at a faster pace than their peers, and who thrive on independence and complex thinking. As more and more students over the years demonstrated they would benefit from the enriched curriculum, they began offering that curriculum at home schools, rather than shipping an entire class of 4th graders to a different school.

If parents stopped treating the CES as a coveted prize to be won by a select few students, and instead focused on advocating for better enriched curriculum (and GT trained teachers) at their school, everyone would be better off.

+1 If most students are at a more accelerated pace, the teacher can go through the curriculum quicker. But if it's like at my DC's school where she's one of a tiny group of more advanced students, so that the teacher has to go at a slower pace, it makes more sense that tiny group of students who are not being challenged at all to get sent to an accelerated program.

Also, the lottery is in place in part because demand far exceeds supply, and opens up the program to students whose parents or guardians are not as much "in the know." Diversity benefits the accelerated program.

+1 CES is supposed to provide equity of a peer group to match the learning of certain students for whom a large enough peer group isnt present im their school. Many schools have the appropriate peer group and so only need to implement curriculum changes and ensure teachers are training in gifted teaching/learning. Heck these teachers should be given additional leeway to craft the teaching for their year as the students already demonstrate a capacity to learn not just at the standard level.

Is it still a lottery due to more demand and less supply or is it about no peer group at homeschool? What is it? Will MCPS BOE make it clear to the county residents who pay their taxes?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Too many Asian and white kids. Not “enough” black and Latino kids who can match Asian/white kids performance

Exactly:

https://bethesdamagazine.com/bethesda-beat/schools/mcps-files-to-dismiss-magnet-admissions-lawsuit/

MCPS didn't like the outcome of the existing process, so they changed it to a lottery to achieve an outcome they wanted.

+1 The lottery was to ensure MCPS could weasel out of pending lawsuits. I believe they were caught tampering with the admissions criteria of the 2020 class, which helped motivate moving towards a lottery system. Can't claim its discrimination if it's a completely random selection.

Based on the article, it looks like Montgomery county schools are not the place for highly talented anymore. I wonder why enrollments in MCPS schools are down this year. I guess people are going private schools. May be time to move to Virginia and pay our taxes there

Don't let the door hit you on the way out! Oh, and it really wouldn't hurt you to improve your grammar.

MCPS never disclose how they select the students for the lotttery. The criteria is a moving target, depending on your skin color and where you live. MCPD said there is a national rank and there is a adjusted MCPS rank. For. A student who ranked at 90% nationally, he or she could be a 75% students or a 99% student. Some students who ranked at 75% nationally could be in the pool for lottery but others in 97% may not be selected for the pool.

Well since it's a lottery there's really nothing to disclose. It was the pool selection that isn't so clear but it involved the 85%.. DD who is at TPMS and was selected says there are plenty of kids this year who got in with MAP-M scores in the 230s.

Is 230 at 4th grade or for 6th grade CES?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s really a bummer they can just do leveled classrooms anymore. Then kids stay in their homeschools and get enriched instruction there. Sorting by ability is out though, sadly. It’s a mess.

Our ES essentially does this because of compacted math and ELC. There are some kids in the one and not the other, but mostly it's a cohort. And at the lower levels they do group kids of similar performance levels into classroom clusters so that they can small-group or enrich together. Parents at our ES often actually tend to turn down CES invitations because so many things (to be clear, not all) from the CES curriculum are already going on inside our regular school. Our admin also works at all levels (including the littles) to identify kids who are good candidates for enrichment or faster study and to meet their needs.

I bring this up because I think it is a good middle course between a not-feasible massive size expansion of the CES programs and the near impossibility of conducting a completely fair and constructive assessment of students from a wide variety of personal circumstances. It requires, however, a really strong leadership team that is constantly re-inventing how to best serve the families. How we do things at our school changes in big and little ways pretty much every year.

This sounds like our ES.

Which ES?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DCUM is so nice right now without all the trolls.

We have at least 4 right now. Maybe I'm missing one.

1) lottery troll
2) restorative justice troll
3) SRO troll
4) anti-vax anti-mask troll

Items 2, 3, 4 are just crazy-town. Not really thrilled about the lottery but it's also not the end of the world.

For the children who could have been world-class competitors, it certainly didn't do them any favors. Montgomery County is not in a bubble. Either the children are ready for global competition, or they are not. If you think a lottery will make any difference, you're wrong. If anything it will increase the equity difference.

Before the lottery, kids knew that only the absolute best were selected. If a kid worked hard or was a savant, they won the golden ticket. It meant something.

Now the Magnet program is nothing but a Las Vegas casino, and just as tacky. The Magnet program now teaches to the class anchors. This only breeds resentment amongst peers and demoralizes the students dragging everyone else behind. In the mean time, the local CES now have the majority of high-flyers. The parents who can are just paying for tutors, special program classes, and other things that leapfrog their children ahead of the others.

And the assessment is off. You forgot a few trolls as well. "The only reason why kids get 99+ on CogAT and get into the Magnet program is because the parents send the kid to prep courses troll", or "the crazy boundary maps look fine troll", or the MCPS "Everything is Awesome" troll?

You can ignore these threads if they bother you that much. Parents want to talk about this. If you want to make a point - make it - or move on.

Well said! Some just do not want parents to discuss ideas or process improvements. It is always inconvenient.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DCUM is so nice right now without all the trolls.

We have at least 4 right now. Maybe I'm missing one.

1) lottery troll
2) restorative justice troll
3) SRO troll
4) anti-vax anti-mask troll

Items 2, 3, 4 are just crazy-town. Not really thrilled about the lottery but it's also not the end of the world.

For the children who could have been world-class competitors, it certainly didn't do them any favors. Montgomery County is not in a bubble. Either the children are ready for global competition, or they are not. If you think a lottery will make any difference, you're wrong. If anything it will increase the equity difference.

Before the lottery, kids knew that only the absolute best were selected. If a kid worked hard or was a savant, they won the golden ticket. It meant something.

Now the Magnet program is nothing but a Las Vegas casino, and just as tacky. The Magnet program now teaches to the class anchors. This only breeds resentment amongst peers and demoralizes the students dragging everyone else behind. In the mean time, the local CES now have the majority of high-flyers. The parents who can are just paying for tutors, special program classes, and other things that leapfrog their children ahead of the others.

And the assessment is off. You forgot a few trolls as well. "The only reason why kids get 99+ on CogAT and get into the Magnet program is because the parents send the kid to prep courses troll", or "the crazy boundary maps look fine troll", or the MCPS "Everything is Awesome" troll?

You can ignore these threads if they bother you that much. Parents want to talk about this. If you want to make a point - make it - or move on.

This year's 4th and 6th graders are the only magnet students to have gone through the lottery process, and they're in their first semester of in-person school since the middle of 2nd / 4th grade. So maybe, just maybe, you're overreacting a bit? Or making some unreasonable assumptions? Just a thought.

May be you are assuming as well. Just a thought. This is a topic that many parents wants to discuss, share ideas and prepare kids for a bright future. If you do not have anything to contribute, please ignore. Just saying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The programs used to look for kids who were true outliers. Now we seem to think that the top 25% are outliers and need special programs. If we want to have a program for the top 25% in can be in every school. No need for any lottery based magnet. It is compact math + a high reading group + enrichment.

There is nothing wrong in creating a program for top 25% however lottery to eliminate some from that group and pick others is not a good process.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DCUM is so nice right now without all the trolls.

We have at least 4 right now. Maybe I'm missing one.

1) lottery troll
2) restorative justice troll
3) SRO troll
4) anti-vax anti-mask troll

Items 2, 3, 4 are just crazy-town. Not really thrilled about the lottery but it's also not the end of the world.

For the children who could have been world-class competitors, it certainly didn't do them any favors. Montgomery County is not in a bubble. Either the children are ready for global competition, or they are not. If you think a lottery will make any difference, you're wrong. If anything it will increase the equity difference.

Before the lottery, kids knew that only the absolute best were selected. If a kid worked hard or was a savant, they won the golden ticket. It meant something.

Now the Magnet program is nothing but a Las Vegas casino, and just as tacky. The Magnet program now teaches to the class anchors. This only breeds resentment amongst peers and demoralizes the students dragging everyone else behind. In the mean time, the local CES now have the majority of high-flyers. The parents who can are just paying for tutors, special program classes, and other things that leapfrog their children ahead of the others.

And the assessment is off. You forgot a few trolls as well. "The only reason why kids get 99+ on CogAT and get into the Magnet program is because the parents send the kid to prep courses troll", or "the crazy boundary maps look fine troll", or the MCPS "Everything is Awesome" troll?

You can ignore these threads if they bother you that much. Parents want to talk about this. If you want to make a point - make it - or move on.

This year's 4th and 6th graders are the only magnet students to have gone through the lottery process, and they're in their first semester of in-person school since the middle of 2nd / 4th grade. So maybe, just maybe, you're overreacting a bit? Or making some unreasonable assumptions? Just a thought.

May be you are assuming as well. Just a thought. This is a topic that many parents wants to discuss, share ideas and prepare kids for a bright future. If you do not have anything to contribute, please ignore. Just saying.

In what way is it a useful contribution to say that the current magnet process is “just as tacky” as a “Las Vegas casino?” Is that the kind of high level contribution you’d prefer?

I do think it’s relevant that we are less than halfway through the first year of the first class selected by lottery, and that this is an atypical year for everyone. It is way too early to draw any conclusions about the success or failure of selection by lottery. Plus, due to distance learning, kids all over are struggling this year. Even if it turns out that this year’s class underperforms previous years’, it will be impossible to know whether that’s due to lottery selection or the lack of in person schooling.

We do know that, in any given year even pre-lottery, lots of qualified kids didn’t get accepted to the magnets, or chose not to attend. There is at least some historical data for 99% kids in non-magnet programs. So perhaps the more interesting question is how many of the 85% kids thrive in the magnets and how many really struggle. But, again, far too early to say.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Define qualified...if you want to have a program for the top students, there is always a group at the top.

This is the fundamental misunderstanding of the CES program. It is not supposed to be for the "top students" in the school system. It was designed to meet the academic needs of students whose needs couldn't be met in their home elementary school. This really doesn't mean the top academic performers, it means students who learn differently, at a faster pace than their peers, and who thrive on independence and complex thinking. As more and more students over the years demonstrated they would benefit from the enriched curriculum, they began offering that curriculum at home schools, rather than shipping an entire class of 4th graders to a different school.

If parents stopped treating the CES as a coveted prize to be won by a select few students, and instead focused on advocating for better enriched curriculum (and GT trained teachers) at their school, everyone would be better off.

All lecture aside, Did you stop to think about how does lottery help to meet the needs of kids who are not selected into the program by lottery? if you argue that their needs can be met locally at homeschool, then why can't MCPS meet the needs of other kids at their home school? Why do you even need a CES program?

These posts are, in my opinion, the very heart of the matter. The magnets are, in their best version, a method to to meet the needs of kids who cannot get that enrichment at their home school. Cohort matters. If your child is at a school with plenty of similarly leveled kids, AND MCPS offers enrichment for those kids, they do not need the magnet. Hence the in-school CES programs and home school enrichment classes/programs that MCPS has been starting to offer. If a homeschool is too small for a significant cohort or child is such an outlier, the magnet is a resource to help with that rarer situation. The lottery COMPLETELY undermines this because it just looks for ability but does not take into account circumstances or cohort. MCPS says this saves them from having to parse through kids and “split hairs” in their decision process, but THAT IS THEIR JOB and they are really just choosing a pretty lazy method of names in a hat.

The problems to fix:
More quality enrichment available at home schools
More regional CES spots, because the student population has grown enough to need it, even with home school enrichment increases
The office of accelerated and enriched learning needs to get back to the hard work of picking out the kids who really do need the regional magnets
Central Office needs to get back to the hard work of selecting the outlier kids who really do need

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Define qualified...if you want to have a program for the top students, there is always a group at the top.

This is the fundamental misunderstanding of the CES program. It is not supposed to be for the "top students" in the school system. It was designed to meet the academic needs of students whose needs couldn't be met in their home elementary school. This really doesn't mean the top academic performers, it means students who learn differently, at a faster pace than their peers, and who thrive on independence and complex thinking. As more and more students over the years demonstrated they would benefit from the enriched curriculum, they began offering that curriculum at home schools, rather than shipping an entire class of 4th graders to a different school.

If parents stopped treating the CES as a coveted prize to be won by a select few students, and instead focused on advocating for better enriched curriculum (and GT trained teachers) at their school, everyone would be better off.

All lecture aside, Did you stop to think about how does lottery help to meet the needs of kids who are not selected into the program by lottery? if you argue that their needs can be met locally at homeschool, then why can't MCPS meet the needs of other kids at their home school? Why do you even need a CES program?

These posts are, in my opinion, the very heart of the matter. The magnets are, in their best version, a method to to meet the needs of kids who cannot get that enrichment at their home school. Cohort matters. If your child is at a school with plenty of similarly leveled kids, AND MCPS offers enrichment for those kids, they do not need the magnet. Hence the in-school CES programs and home school enrichment classes/programs that MCPS has been starting to offer. If a homeschool is too small for a significant cohort or child is such an outlier, the magnet is a resource to help with that rarer situation. The lottery COMPLETELY undermines this because it just looks for ability but does not take into account circumstances or cohort. MCPS says this saves them from having to parse through kids and “split hairs” in their decision process, but THAT IS THEIR JOB and they are really just choosing a pretty lazy method of names in a hat.

The problems to fix:
More quality enrichment available at home schools
More regional CES spots, because the student population has grown enough to need it, even with home school enrichment increases
The office of accelerated and enriched learning needs to get back to the hard work of picking out the kids who really do need the regional magnets
Central Office needs to get back to the hard work of selecting the outlier kids who really do need

+1 Totally agree.

The post before this tries to claim it's "too early to draw any conclusions" and use the covid "kids all over are struggling" blame-game. This sounds like the central office poppycock dished out to parents when they screw up and want parents to shut up and go away.

"Even if it turns out that this year’s class underperforms previous years’, it will be impossible to know whether that’s due to lottery selection or the lack of in person schooling."

This is exactly the point. The central office intentionally selected kids that couldn't hack it over those who could. It's an admission by MCPS that they're complete idiots.

If you're in charge, and the only ones making selections - you are the only one that holds the bag of responsibility for results. If you can't deliver results, you're not in the right job.