Anonymous wrote:The commander of Hamas’-led Gaza National Security Forces — a Major General — has been. This adversely affects Hamas, an entity which no one here should dispute is not serving Gazans well and does not stand for them.
Anonymous wrote:The commander of Hamas’-led Gaza National Security Forces — a Major General — has been. This adversely affects Hamas, an entity which no one here should dispute is not serving Gazans well and does not stand for them.
I'm sure his replacement has already been appointed. I won't consider it an "adverse effect" until I see Hamas actually cease fire and capitulate.
Anonymous wrote:All because of the Big Lie. This is what happens when terrorists declare a Day of Unparalleled Anger.
This is what happens when you let terrorists walk across your border and you respond by targeting refugees convoys and hospitals. Wait till the ground war starts. That will break Egypt neutral support for Israel. You think this is not going to be a sh#t show all through the ME. There will be a total realignment, minimum a few assassinations of heads of state(Saudi and Egypt) and it will not favor Israel.
Now let’s talk about those leftist democrats, BLM and students who support Palestinians. Oh they are so evil and the cause of all these problems for Israel! If only we can silence those people everything will be fine.
Tunisia is a mess. Has been for a long while. I am sorry for the loss of the Torah, but these days of rage are mostly ridiculous spectacle.
The way American Jews feel about Israelis being slaughtered by Hamas is exactly how Muslims around the world feel about Palestinians being slaughtered by Israel.
You don’t understand their pain? It’s the same pain a Jewish person is feeling right now
They feel so badly that they won't help save the civilians still there. Give me a break
Save them how? Egypt tried and IDF bombed the Rafah crossing. America says sorry peeps, we can’t save tax paying American citizens in Gaza but we can send a ship and planes to Israel to ship American citizens out ASAP.
Do you think Tunisia wants to war with Israel so they can bomb Tunisian hospitals and children too?
People have been waiting at the Rafa border for days. Egypt could open it if they wanted to.
If they do, Israel would bomb the crossing again then go a bit further and accidentally bomb a nearby target in Egypt saying it was to bomb Hamas bunkers. The Egyptians know this.
Who knows? If this shitshow keeps continuing , I see worse escalation to continue and with the American presidents comments, he just endangered all our ambassadors in the Middle East with one single comment. Poor Anthony Blinken looked mortified
Egypt and Jordan said straight out they will not take in Palestinians. Did you not know about that, or do you just want to speculate about what Israel would do, like you are deciding on which move to make in a video game?
Funny you say video game as Israel has produced video games about IDF soldiers where one can kill Palestinians for fun. One is called Bomb Gaza, another was called Code Red:Gaza Assault, and another is called Iron Dome Missile Defense.
Okay. And in Palestine, kindergarten graduations involve putting on skits about kidnapping and murdering Jews.
Cool. You all are terrible people, on both sides. Maybe we should let yall just work it out as you see fit. And not foot the bill.
The Islamophobia and anti-Arab sentiment are so intense on the pro-Israel side. It's really mind-blowing how much hate and racism they get away with while simultaneously accusing all of their detractors of "antisemitism". In a few hundred years, I'm sure the history books will have named this psychosis/era - whatever you call it - but to live it is something else.
Yah. The pro Israel rallies are really frightening with their Palestinian flag burning and chanting death to Palestinians. Not.
I take it you've never seen a settler rally in Israel? They don't chant Death to Palestinians because they deny the very existence of Palestinians. Instead they chant Death to Arabs. Two members of Bibi's cabinet have done it regularly and are quite open with their feelings. There's probably one happening in the West Bank right now.
By the way, those two cabinet members? One is in charge of the Israeli Police while the other is in charge of disbursing government funds.
Are Palestinians not Arabs?
One of the pro-Israel talking points is that there is no “Palestinian” identity, they are just “Arabs” and should therefore go live in some other Arab country. This is an incredibly bigoted hot take.
All of these little countries like Jordan, Lebanon, etc., have their own identity, the people who were forcibly expelled from the land can trace their ancestry there, they are indigenous to the land and people can deny that until they are blue in the face.
It’s not though. The notion of a Palestinian Muslim identity is not an ethnic idea. It’s nationalism and it’s relatively new:
Emergence of a distinct identity
The timing and causes behind the emergence of a distinctively Palestinian national consciousness among the Arabs of Palestine are matters of scholarly disagreement. Some argue that it can be traced as far back as the peasants' revolt in Palestine in 1834 (or even as early as the 17th century), while others argue that it did not emerge until after the Mandatory Palestine period.[59][112] Legal historian Assaf Likhovski states that the prevailing view is that Palestinian identity originated in the early decades of the 20th century,[59] when an embryonic desire among Palestinians for self-government in the face of generalized fears that Zionism would lead to a Jewish state and the dispossession of the Arab majority crystallised among most editors, Christian and Muslim, of local newspapers.[113] The term itself Filasṭīnī was first introduced by Khalīl Beidas in a translation of a Russian work on the Holy Land into Arabic in 1898. After that, its usage gradually spread so that, by 1908, with the loosening of censorship controls under late Ottoman rule, a number of Muslim, Christian and Jewish correspondents writing for newspapers began to use the term with great frequency in referring to the 'Palestinian people'(ahl/ahālī Filasṭīn), 'Palestinians' (al-Filasṭīnīyūn) the 'sons of Palestine(abnā’ Filasṭīn) or to 'Palestinian society',(al-mujtama' al-filasṭīnī).[114]
In Arab countries people primarily tie themselves to their village of origin. My own family can trace our records in our home village at least 500 years, or double the existence of the United States. While a national identity may be relatively new throughout the entire Middle East, this doesn’t mean that people don’t have a clear sense of homeland and place.
But it’s simply fact that the area wasn’t Muslim in any significant numbers until the 1500s.
This idea that Palestinian Arabs existed as some distinct identity for 2,000 years in what is now Israel is completely ahistoric.
This is like denying that Egypt wasn’t a country before Islam. People in the Arab world converted to Islam as it spread. So the Palestinian Muslim’s ancestors may indeed have been in the region for 2,000 years.
Arabs have been in the region. No one disputes that.
But Palestinians as a distinct people did not exist as a concept until much, much later.
I’m really not following your argument. A group of people who are not Jewish have lived in that region for thousands of years. They now call themselves Palestinians. Their religion before 1500 or their understanding of nation-states does not matter. As indigenous people they have ties to the land and it is their homeland as much as anyone else.
Wrong.
If we’re talking literally about what is now Israel, the land was:
1. Jewish
2. Then Roman
3. Then Christian
4. Muslims came in around the 1500s
5. Brits took it over and made it Mandatory Palestine, which had 500,000 Jews and 1 million Muslims
We’re focusing here specifically on the land in question, not the Middle East in general.
This is a totally absurd argument. Land does not have a religion. The people on the land have a religion. If the “land” was Jewish, Roman, whatever, it doesn’t matter. The humans who live on the land have a claim- the Palestinians. If they change their religion or become colonized- they still have a claim on the land.
Then at least be honest and say they aren’t an ethnicity distinct from anyone else. Just say they lived there.
They dont just live there, they are FROM there. That's the point
No. Arabs are not from what is now Palestine.
I don't know who this Palestinian denier is but she clearly knows ZERO actual Arabs in real life. The numbers for Jews in Palestine at the 19th/20th century are incredibly off. Muslims accounted for over 85% of the population in 1880. They began immigrating from Europe in the 1900s and increased numbers dramatically during that time.
The erasure of Palestinians should not be tolerated. It's bad enough that Israelis have kicked them off their land now they usurp culture and deny their existence.
*Jews began immigrating from Europe. That's why numbers started increasing. They doubled their numbers by the 1920s after the mass emigration movements.
Yet Muslims were massacring Jews en masse ? Do you think Jews in a migrant and anti semitic humanitarian crisis in Europe would even settle there if it weren’t safe?
Some Jews even left America to go to Mandatory Palestine because it was more safe there than here with anti Semitism
You miss the point entirely. You can claim all you want that Jews have a claim to the land for 2000 years. Ok. Whatever. We'll assume that there's no statue of limitations and my 2% Ghanian DNA means I can go take back Ghana.
Palestinians living on the land in the 1920s - 1940s (and now), did not care that this group of immigrants had ancestors that once occupied the area over 2000 years ago. All they saw - rightly - were boatloads of immigrants from W and Eastern Europe who were displacing them from their homes. Same in 47 and 48. They arrived as Europeans. you can argue the DNA all you like but they arrived on boats en masse from a different continent with an entirely different culture to the region.
Sure, the land was sold fair and square. We can blame the British. But please stop this line re: Jewish migrants from Europe somehow belonging to the land over the people that had been sitting there for generations.
This is such BS. Jews were IDPs. Stateless. But sure — we were privileged Europeans.
Yes, to the native people on the land they were. Particularly when they started taking their homes and land - and doing so rather violently.
So you can claim the connection all you want, but if you cannot understand it from the position of the people living on the land then you have no possible empathy. If someone tried to take your house now and told you that they used to live their years ago but were forcible moved out to Europe about 50 years ago, you'd tell them to eat it.
Same same.
Well imagine returning to the land where the temples and homes built by your forebears like Solomon and David are still standing, to have someone else claiming it's theirs.
You'd tell them to eat it, right? Well, that's the Arabs.
Are you kidding? I wouldn't expect to reclaim something from 2000 years prior. That's insane. I certainly wouldn't expect temples from biblical times to still be standing, nor would I start throwing around names from the Bible like any of these people would've known them. LOL
Really? Well, the Native Americans reclaimed Kennewick Man. So that's YET ANOTHER bogus argument you've made.
You keep failing with analogy after analogy. Maybe at some point that will sink in.
I'm with PP who thinks this has broken your brain. You realize the American Indian wars were in the late 1800s, right? Let's try counting to 2,000. Plus, the Native Americans never moved to Europe to camp out for a few thousand years and then try to return.
Sorry my friend, I am not the one with the broken brain. You and your little friend cannot even come up with proper, logical or historically accurate analogies.
I'm going to bed, you can continue your smooth-brained circle jerk without me.
You said that you deserve Israel because Solomon and David are your forebears. That is logic?
It's your logic that Arabs deserve Israel because grandpa planted an olive tree, so....
Correct. If your direct ancestors lived and farmed on land and did not sell it, that is your land. I’m glad you are finally figuring this out.
But if your ancestors lived there for a thousand years and built massive temples on it and ALSO DID NOT SELL IT, somehow it's NOT their land.
Some warped logic there.
I guess you figure the paintings and jewelry stolen from Jews by Nazis didn't really belong to the Jews either, right?
Ok once again:
Things you bought and have a direct connection to: yours
Things the Bible says are yours: not necessarily yours
Oh so all of that stone, those massive ancient walls and temples are just a figment of biblical imagination and don't really exist now.
You are quite a piece of work.
Correct. You have zero personal connection to those historical sites. Therefore they do not belong to you.
In fact ancient archaeological sites, like the Pyramids, arguably belong to all of humanity, not just one ethnic group. Although the pyramids are a lot more impressive than anything in Israel.
No one destroyed the pyramids, idiot.
But way to erase Jewish identity. They belong to everyone? Our Western Wall? Our holy sites?
I would point out that because of the current government of Israel there are plenty of Jewish people who don’t feel like those sites belong to them. Ask any female rabbi who wants to lead prayers at the wall. They’re arrested just for carrying Torah scrolls.
I would put this in a modern lens and try to decouple it from people’s emotions. It is definitely a product of 1940’s thinking that we (the broader “western” we) can just create a state amidst other peoples without their consent. I cannot imagine the resolution to the Uighur horror in PRC, for example, being resolved by giving them a state in one of the other central Asian countries that have Uighur populations. The example is not perfect, but it just isn’t the current way we would perceive of a solution to the problem.
That doesn’t mean we can (or should) go back and “undo it” but it means if successive generations are supposed to endorse and defend that outcome, it has to continue to be worth it. The killing of babies rarely seems worth it.
First, to whom? Your centering yourself in that determination is odd. Who’s the we in the determination? Would the we have created India or Jordan or Italy or Armenia of half a dozen other relatively modern country inventions of multi tribes of indigenous peoples? I think you have to examine some of your biases.
Anonymous wrote:Lots bc of antisemitism here…
Wow.
Blown away.
Curious if you are white
A ton of Arabs here
I’m going to ignore the racism and only address the stupidity:
Demographically there aren’t that many Arabs here — but there are tons of Latinos. And as a rule, Latinos hate colonialism. We still remember atrocities committed in the name of religion or upholding the (colonial) law. Israel declaring their massacres and sieges “legal” is not a convincing argument.
Committed by the Spaniards, masters of colonialism yes. Are you indigenous? Quechua?
Israel, the ancestral homeland of the Jews, was colonized by Rome, and then Arabs. And here I am looking at the last half dozen pages here attempting to deny that Jews had anything to do with the temples built by their ancestors, that they should be severed from their own history and lineage, that we should wipe all of that out (which is its own form of cultural genocide).
And then the icing on the cake is to point the finger at European colonialism as if that's the only wrong ever to have been done. Sure, let's just ignore the violent spread of Islam. Let's ignore the cultural appropriation of ancient Jewish relics to be painted over with Muslim mythology of how Mohammed's horse sprouted wings and carried him into space or whatever else.
This whole thread is cringe and facepalm of weird justifications.
Israel was also colonized by the Jews. Even assuming that you believe their Origin story, Israel wasn't empty when they arrived in the book of Joshua.
Anonymous wrote:Lots bc of antisemitism here…
Wow.
Blown away.
Curious if you are white
A ton of Arabs here
I’m going to ignore the racism and only address the stupidity:
Demographically there aren’t that many Arabs here — but there are tons of Latinos. And as a rule, Latinos hate colonialism. We still remember atrocities committed in the name of religion or upholding the (colonial) law. Israel declaring their massacres and sieges “legal” is not a convincing argument.
Committed by the Spaniards, masters of colonialism yes. Are you indigenous? Quechua?
Israel, the ancestral homeland of the Jews, was colonized by Rome, and then Arabs. And here I am looking at the last half dozen pages here attempting to deny that Jews had anything to do with the temples built by their ancestors, that they should be severed from their own history and lineage, that we should wipe all of that out (which is its own form of cultural genocide).
And then the icing on the cake is to point the finger at European colonialism as if that's the only wrong ever to have been done. Sure, let's just ignore the violent spread of Islam. Let's ignore the cultural appropriation of ancient Jewish relics to be painted over with Muslim mythology of how Mohammed's horse sprouted wings and carried him into space or whatever else.
This whole thread is cringe and facepalm of weird justifications.
Please quote the posts which say that. I don’t see them and I’m not the poster you’re arguing with.
It is the case, though, that buildings (even nice ones) made by our ancestors do not confer ownership onto us. This is particularly true of people who emigrated to the United States.
You might have a point, where they agreeably and willingly sold them to their current occupants.
Do you really think we can rewind history to give every group it's ancestral homeland back? Over the last few thousand years just about every group in the world has been displaced and displaced other groups.
Anonymous wrote:Lots bc of antisemitism here…
Wow.
Blown away.
Curious if you are white
A ton of Arabs here
I’m going to ignore the racism and only address the stupidity:
Demographically there aren’t that many Arabs here — but there are tons of Latinos. And as a rule, Latinos hate colonialism. We still remember atrocities committed in the name of religion or upholding the (colonial) law. Israel declaring their massacres and sieges “legal” is not a convincing argument.
Committed by the Spaniards, masters of colonialism yes. Are you indigenous? Quechua?
Israel, the ancestral homeland of the Jews, was colonized by Rome, and then Arabs. And here I am looking at the last half dozen pages here attempting to deny that Jews had anything to do with the temples built by their ancestors, that they should be severed from their own history and lineage, that we should wipe all of that out (which is its own form of cultural genocide).
And then the icing on the cake is to point the finger at European colonialism as if that's the only wrong ever to have been done. Sure, let's just ignore the violent spread of Islam. Let's ignore the cultural appropriation of ancient Jewish relics to be painted over with Muslim mythology of how Mohammed's horse sprouted wings and carried him into space or whatever else.
This whole thread is cringe and facepalm of weird justifications.
Israel was also colonized by the Jews. Even assuming that you believe their Origin story, Israel wasn't empty when they arrived in the book of Joshua.
+1. Also, Is that PP ready to give up their home for the indigenous people of the US? This area was colonized far more recently, and if we can go back a couple thousand years in time to claim land rights, surely that PP would advocate giving all property in the Americas back to the descendants of the original settlers.
Anonymous wrote:All because of the Big Lie. This is what happens when terrorists declare a Day of Unparalleled Anger.
This is what happens when you let terrorists walk across your border and you respond by targeting refugees convoys and hospitals. Wait till the ground war starts. That will break Egypt neutral support for Israel. You think this is not going to be a sh#t show all through the ME. There will be a total realignment, minimum a few assassinations of heads of state(Saudi and Egypt) and it will not favor Israel.
Now let’s talk about those leftist democrats, BLM and students who support Palestinians. Oh they are so evil and the cause of all these problems for Israel! If only we can silence those people everything will be fine.
Tunisia is a mess. Has been for a long while. I am sorry for the loss of the Torah, but these days of rage are mostly ridiculous spectacle.
The way American Jews feel about Israelis being slaughtered by Hamas is exactly how Muslims around the world feel about Palestinians being slaughtered by Israel.
You don’t understand their pain? It’s the same pain a Jewish person is feeling right now
They feel so badly that they won't help save the civilians still there. Give me a break
Save them how? Egypt tried and IDF bombed the Rafah crossing. America says sorry peeps, we can’t save tax paying American citizens in Gaza but we can send a ship and planes to Israel to ship American citizens out ASAP.
Do you think Tunisia wants to war with Israel so they can bomb Tunisian hospitals and children too?
People have been waiting at the Rafa border for days. Egypt could open it if they wanted to.
If they do, Israel would bomb the crossing again then go a bit further and accidentally bomb a nearby target in Egypt saying it was to bomb Hamas bunkers. The Egyptians know this.
Who knows? If this shitshow keeps continuing , I see worse escalation to continue and with the American presidents comments, he just endangered all our ambassadors in the Middle East with one single comment. Poor Anthony Blinken looked mortified
Egypt and Jordan said straight out they will not take in Palestinians. Did you not know about that, or do you just want to speculate about what Israel would do, like you are deciding on which move to make in a video game?
Funny you say video game as Israel has produced video games about IDF soldiers where one can kill Palestinians for fun. One is called Bomb Gaza, another was called Code Red:Gaza Assault, and another is called Iron Dome Missile Defense.
Okay. And in Palestine, kindergarten graduations involve putting on skits about kidnapping and murdering Jews.
Cool. You all are terrible people, on both sides. Maybe we should let yall just work it out as you see fit. And not foot the bill.
The Islamophobia and anti-Arab sentiment are so intense on the pro-Israel side. It's really mind-blowing how much hate and racism they get away with while simultaneously accusing all of their detractors of "antisemitism". In a few hundred years, I'm sure the history books will have named this psychosis/era - whatever you call it - but to live it is something else.
Yah. The pro Israel rallies are really frightening with their Palestinian flag burning and chanting death to Palestinians. Not.
I take it you've never seen a settler rally in Israel? They don't chant Death to Palestinians because they deny the very existence of Palestinians. Instead they chant Death to Arabs. Two members of Bibi's cabinet have done it regularly and are quite open with their feelings. There's probably one happening in the West Bank right now.
By the way, those two cabinet members? One is in charge of the Israeli Police while the other is in charge of disbursing government funds.
Are Palestinians not Arabs?
One of the pro-Israel talking points is that there is no “Palestinian” identity, they are just “Arabs” and should therefore go live in some other Arab country. This is an incredibly bigoted hot take.
All of these little countries like Jordan, Lebanon, etc., have their own identity, the people who were forcibly expelled from the land can trace their ancestry there, they are indigenous to the land and people can deny that until they are blue in the face.
It’s not though. The notion of a Palestinian Muslim identity is not an ethnic idea. It’s nationalism and it’s relatively new:
Emergence of a distinct identity
The timing and causes behind the emergence of a distinctively Palestinian national consciousness among the Arabs of Palestine are matters of scholarly disagreement. Some argue that it can be traced as far back as the peasants' revolt in Palestine in 1834 (or even as early as the 17th century), while others argue that it did not emerge until after the Mandatory Palestine period.[59][112] Legal historian Assaf Likhovski states that the prevailing view is that Palestinian identity originated in the early decades of the 20th century,[59] when an embryonic desire among Palestinians for self-government in the face of generalized fears that Zionism would lead to a Jewish state and the dispossession of the Arab majority crystallised among most editors, Christian and Muslim, of local newspapers.[113] The term itself Filasṭīnī was first introduced by Khalīl Beidas in a translation of a Russian work on the Holy Land into Arabic in 1898. After that, its usage gradually spread so that, by 1908, with the loosening of censorship controls under late Ottoman rule, a number of Muslim, Christian and Jewish correspondents writing for newspapers began to use the term with great frequency in referring to the 'Palestinian people'(ahl/ahālī Filasṭīn), 'Palestinians' (al-Filasṭīnīyūn) the 'sons of Palestine(abnā’ Filasṭīn) or to 'Palestinian society',(al-mujtama' al-filasṭīnī).[114]
In Arab countries people primarily tie themselves to their village of origin. My own family can trace our records in our home village at least 500 years, or double the existence of the United States. While a national identity may be relatively new throughout the entire Middle East, this doesn’t mean that people don’t have a clear sense of homeland and place.
But it’s simply fact that the area wasn’t Muslim in any significant numbers until the 1500s.
This idea that Palestinian Arabs existed as some distinct identity for 2,000 years in what is now Israel is completely ahistoric.
This is like denying that Egypt wasn’t a country before Islam. People in the Arab world converted to Islam as it spread. So the Palestinian Muslim’s ancestors may indeed have been in the region for 2,000 years.
Arabs have been in the region. No one disputes that.
But Palestinians as a distinct people did not exist as a concept until much, much later.
I’m really not following your argument. A group of people who are not Jewish have lived in that region for thousands of years. They now call themselves Palestinians. Their religion before 1500 or their understanding of nation-states does not matter. As indigenous people they have ties to the land and it is their homeland as much as anyone else.
Wrong.
If we’re talking literally about what is now Israel, the land was:
1. Jewish
2. Then Roman
3. Then Christian
4. Muslims came in around the 1500s
5. Brits took it over and made it Mandatory Palestine, which had 500,000 Jews and 1 million Muslims
We’re focusing here specifically on the land in question, not the Middle East in general.
This is a totally absurd argument. Land does not have a religion. The people on the land have a religion. If the “land” was Jewish, Roman, whatever, it doesn’t matter. The humans who live on the land have a claim- the Palestinians. If they change their religion or become colonized- they still have a claim on the land.
Then at least be honest and say they aren’t an ethnicity distinct from anyone else. Just say they lived there.
They dont just live there, they are FROM there. That's the point
No. Arabs are not from what is now Palestine.
I don't know who this Palestinian denier is but she clearly knows ZERO actual Arabs in real life. The numbers for Jews in Palestine at the 19th/20th century are incredibly off. Muslims accounted for over 85% of the population in 1880. They began immigrating from Europe in the 1900s and increased numbers dramatically during that time.
The erasure of Palestinians should not be tolerated. It's bad enough that Israelis have kicked them off their land now they usurp culture and deny their existence.
*Jews began immigrating from Europe. That's why numbers started increasing. They doubled their numbers by the 1920s after the mass emigration movements.
Yet Muslims were massacring Jews en masse ? Do you think Jews in a migrant and anti semitic humanitarian crisis in Europe would even settle there if it weren’t safe?
Some Jews even left America to go to Mandatory Palestine because it was more safe there than here with anti Semitism
You miss the point entirely. You can claim all you want that Jews have a claim to the land for 2000 years. Ok. Whatever. We'll assume that there's no statue of limitations and my 2% Ghanian DNA means I can go take back Ghana.
Palestinians living on the land in the 1920s - 1940s (and now), did not care that this group of immigrants had ancestors that once occupied the area over 2000 years ago. All they saw - rightly - were boatloads of immigrants from W and Eastern Europe who were displacing them from their homes. Same in 47 and 48. They arrived as Europeans. you can argue the DNA all you like but they arrived on boats en masse from a different continent with an entirely different culture to the region.
Sure, the land was sold fair and square. We can blame the British. But please stop this line re: Jewish migrants from Europe somehow belonging to the land over the people that had been sitting there for generations.
I agree with you. I wasn’t countering your point. It’s like the Americans disturbed by the migrants suddenly coming to New York on buses and being accommodated in hotels . As Trump says , an “invasion” and many Americans believe him. Palestinian Jews were also disturbed by the Jewish Europeans who suddenly came out of nowhere en masse and were Jewish and spoke different languages and came from a different culture .
In fact, one can make the argument that Israel can’t exist without war as the founders of Zion even said in order to create a diverse Israel with all of her peoples from various nations an Arab or Muslim enemy would be needed to unite the nation
Jews were never Europeans. Stop it.
To the native Palestinians they were. You can continually make these arguments as an American Jew all you want but for people in the 40s seeing ships arriving from Europe they were being invaded by European settlers. They didn't take out DNA tests or bother to ask where their ancestors from 2000 years ago were born. That's a ridiculous notion.
If you cannot understand from that POV, it's on you. Think of yourself however you want. But that is not how others would've seen the settlers in the 40s. And to this day, BTW, Israel still draws immigrants from the US and Europe. Sure, grandparents from 20000000 years back and all, but the natives aren't checking the ancestry.com
Anonymous wrote:Lots bc of antisemitism here…
Wow.
Blown away.
Curious if you are white
A ton of Arabs here
I’m going to ignore the racism and only address the stupidity:
Demographically there aren’t that many Arabs here — but there are tons of Latinos. And as a rule, Latinos hate colonialism. We still remember atrocities committed in the name of religion or upholding the (colonial) law. Israel declaring their massacres and sieges “legal” is not a convincing argument.
Committed by the Spaniards, masters of colonialism yes. Are you indigenous? Quechua?
Israel, the ancestral homeland of the Jews, was colonized by Rome, and then Arabs. And here I am looking at the last half dozen pages here attempting to deny that Jews had anything to do with the temples built by their ancestors, that they should be severed from their own history and lineage, that we should wipe all of that out (which is its own form of cultural genocide).
And then the icing on the cake is to point the finger at European colonialism as if that's the only wrong ever to have been done. Sure, let's just ignore the violent spread of Islam. Let's ignore the cultural appropriation of ancient Jewish relics to be painted over with Muslim mythology of how Mohammed's horse sprouted wings and carried him into space or whatever else.
This whole thread is cringe and facepalm of weird justifications.
Israel was also colonized by the Jews. Even assuming that you believe their Origin story, Israel wasn't empty when they arrived in the book of Joshua.
Huh? Most scholars and archaeologists recognize the biblical Israelites to be indigenous to the area of Palestine and there is archaeological, DNA and other evidence going back to the bronze age and neolithic to support it.
Anonymous wrote:All because of the Big Lie. This is what happens when terrorists declare a Day of Unparalleled Anger.
This is what happens when you let terrorists walk across your border and you respond by targeting refugees convoys and hospitals. Wait till the ground war starts. That will break Egypt neutral support for Israel. You think this is not going to be a sh#t show all through the ME. There will be a total realignment, minimum a few assassinations of heads of state(Saudi and Egypt) and it will not favor Israel.
Now let’s talk about those leftist democrats, BLM and students who support Palestinians. Oh they are so evil and the cause of all these problems for Israel! If only we can silence those people everything will be fine.
Tunisia is a mess. Has been for a long while. I am sorry for the loss of the Torah, but these days of rage are mostly ridiculous spectacle.
The way American Jews feel about Israelis being slaughtered by Hamas is exactly how Muslims around the world feel about Palestinians being slaughtered by Israel.
You don’t understand their pain? It’s the same pain a Jewish person is feeling right now
They feel so badly that they won't help save the civilians still there. Give me a break
Save them how? Egypt tried and IDF bombed the Rafah crossing. America says sorry peeps, we can’t save tax paying American citizens in Gaza but we can send a ship and planes to Israel to ship American citizens out ASAP.
Do you think Tunisia wants to war with Israel so they can bomb Tunisian hospitals and children too?
People have been waiting at the Rafa border for days. Egypt could open it if they wanted to.
If they do, Israel would bomb the crossing again then go a bit further and accidentally bomb a nearby target in Egypt saying it was to bomb Hamas bunkers. The Egyptians know this.
Who knows? If this shitshow keeps continuing , I see worse escalation to continue and with the American presidents comments, he just endangered all our ambassadors in the Middle East with one single comment. Poor Anthony Blinken looked mortified
Egypt and Jordan said straight out they will not take in Palestinians. Did you not know about that, or do you just want to speculate about what Israel would do, like you are deciding on which move to make in a video game?
Funny you say video game as Israel has produced video games about IDF soldiers where one can kill Palestinians for fun. One is called Bomb Gaza, another was called Code Red:Gaza Assault, and another is called Iron Dome Missile Defense.
Okay. And in Palestine, kindergarten graduations involve putting on skits about kidnapping and murdering Jews.
Cool. You all are terrible people, on both sides. Maybe we should let yall just work it out as you see fit. And not foot the bill.
The Islamophobia and anti-Arab sentiment are so intense on the pro-Israel side. It's really mind-blowing how much hate and racism they get away with while simultaneously accusing all of their detractors of "antisemitism". In a few hundred years, I'm sure the history books will have named this psychosis/era - whatever you call it - but to live it is something else.
Yah. The pro Israel rallies are really frightening with their Palestinian flag burning and chanting death to Palestinians. Not.
I take it you've never seen a settler rally in Israel? They don't chant Death to Palestinians because they deny the very existence of Palestinians. Instead they chant Death to Arabs. Two members of Bibi's cabinet have done it regularly and are quite open with their feelings. There's probably one happening in the West Bank right now.
By the way, those two cabinet members? One is in charge of the Israeli Police while the other is in charge of disbursing government funds.
Are Palestinians not Arabs?
One of the pro-Israel talking points is that there is no “Palestinian” identity, they are just “Arabs” and should therefore go live in some other Arab country. This is an incredibly bigoted hot take.
All of these little countries like Jordan, Lebanon, etc., have their own identity, the people who were forcibly expelled from the land can trace their ancestry there, they are indigenous to the land and people can deny that until they are blue in the face.
It’s not though. The notion of a Palestinian Muslim identity is not an ethnic idea. It’s nationalism and it’s relatively new:
Emergence of a distinct identity
The timing and causes behind the emergence of a distinctively Palestinian national consciousness among the Arabs of Palestine are matters of scholarly disagreement. Some argue that it can be traced as far back as the peasants' revolt in Palestine in 1834 (or even as early as the 17th century), while others argue that it did not emerge until after the Mandatory Palestine period.[59][112] Legal historian Assaf Likhovski states that the prevailing view is that Palestinian identity originated in the early decades of the 20th century,[59] when an embryonic desire among Palestinians for self-government in the face of generalized fears that Zionism would lead to a Jewish state and the dispossession of the Arab majority crystallised among most editors, Christian and Muslim, of local newspapers.[113] The term itself Filasṭīnī was first introduced by Khalīl Beidas in a translation of a Russian work on the Holy Land into Arabic in 1898. After that, its usage gradually spread so that, by 1908, with the loosening of censorship controls under late Ottoman rule, a number of Muslim, Christian and Jewish correspondents writing for newspapers began to use the term with great frequency in referring to the 'Palestinian people'(ahl/ahālī Filasṭīn), 'Palestinians' (al-Filasṭīnīyūn) the 'sons of Palestine(abnā’ Filasṭīn) or to 'Palestinian society',(al-mujtama' al-filasṭīnī).[114]
In Arab countries people primarily tie themselves to their village of origin. My own family can trace our records in our home village at least 500 years, or double the existence of the United States. While a national identity may be relatively new throughout the entire Middle East, this doesn’t mean that people don’t have a clear sense of homeland and place.
But it’s simply fact that the area wasn’t Muslim in any significant numbers until the 1500s.
This idea that Palestinian Arabs existed as some distinct identity for 2,000 years in what is now Israel is completely ahistoric.
This is like denying that Egypt wasn’t a country before Islam. People in the Arab world converted to Islam as it spread. So the Palestinian Muslim’s ancestors may indeed have been in the region for 2,000 years.
Arabs have been in the region. No one disputes that.
But Palestinians as a distinct people did not exist as a concept until much, much later.
I’m really not following your argument. A group of people who are not Jewish have lived in that region for thousands of years. They now call themselves Palestinians. Their religion before 1500 or their understanding of nation-states does not matter. As indigenous people they have ties to the land and it is their homeland as much as anyone else.
Wrong.
If we’re talking literally about what is now Israel, the land was:
1. Jewish
2. Then Roman
3. Then Christian
4. Muslims came in around the 1500s
5. Brits took it over and made it Mandatory Palestine, which had 500,000 Jews and 1 million Muslims
We’re focusing here specifically on the land in question, not the Middle East in general.
This is a totally absurd argument. Land does not have a religion. The people on the land have a religion. If the “land” was Jewish, Roman, whatever, it doesn’t matter. The humans who live on the land have a claim- the Palestinians. If they change their religion or become colonized- they still have a claim on the land.
Then at least be honest and say they aren’t an ethnicity distinct from anyone else. Just say they lived there.
They dont just live there, they are FROM there. That's the point
No. Arabs are not from what is now Palestine.
I don't know who this Palestinian denier is but she clearly knows ZERO actual Arabs in real life. The numbers for Jews in Palestine at the 19th/20th century are incredibly off. Muslims accounted for over 85% of the population in 1880. They began immigrating from Europe in the 1900s and increased numbers dramatically during that time.
The erasure of Palestinians should not be tolerated. It's bad enough that Israelis have kicked them off their land now they usurp culture and deny their existence.
*Jews began immigrating from Europe. That's why numbers started increasing. They doubled their numbers by the 1920s after the mass emigration movements.
Yet Muslims were massacring Jews en masse ? Do you think Jews in a migrant and anti semitic humanitarian crisis in Europe would even settle there if it weren’t safe?
Some Jews even left America to go to Mandatory Palestine because it was more safe there than here with anti Semitism
You miss the point entirely. You can claim all you want that Jews have a claim to the land for 2000 years. Ok. Whatever. We'll assume that there's no statue of limitations and my 2% Ghanian DNA means I can go take back Ghana.
Palestinians living on the land in the 1920s - 1940s (and now), did not care that this group of immigrants had ancestors that once occupied the area over 2000 years ago. All they saw - rightly - were boatloads of immigrants from W and Eastern Europe who were displacing them from their homes. Same in 47 and 48. They arrived as Europeans. you can argue the DNA all you like but they arrived on boats en masse from a different continent with an entirely different culture to the region.
Sure, the land was sold fair and square. We can blame the British. But please stop this line re: Jewish migrants from Europe somehow belonging to the land over the people that had been sitting there for generations.
I agree with you. I wasn’t countering your point. It’s like the Americans disturbed by the migrants suddenly coming to New York on buses and being accommodated in hotels . As Trump says , an “invasion” and many Americans believe him. Palestinian Jews were also disturbed by the Jewish Europeans who suddenly came out of nowhere en masse and were Jewish and spoke different languages and came from a different culture .
In fact, one can make the argument that Israel can’t exist without war as the founders of Zion even said in order to create a diverse Israel with all of her peoples from various nations an Arab or Muslim enemy would be needed to unite the nation
Jews were never Europeans. Stop it.
To the native Palestinians they were. You can continually make these arguments as an American Jew all you want but for people in the 40s seeing ships arriving from Europe they were being invaded by European settlers. They didn't take out DNA tests or bother to ask where their ancestors from 2000 years ago were born. That's a ridiculous notion.
If you cannot understand from that POV, it's on you. Think of yourself however you want. But that is not how others would've seen the settlers in the 40s. And to this day, BTW, Israel still draws immigrants from the US and Europe. Sure, grandparents from 20000000 years back and all, but the natives aren't checking the ancestry.com
NP -I don’t dispute the right of the ancient Jewish community that was in that area to be there. I dispute the right of all the immigrants who’ve come since the early 20th century and claim they have more of a right to be there then people whose families have had a continuous connection to the land for many, many generations.
Anonymous wrote:All because of the Big Lie. This is what happens when terrorists declare a Day of Unparalleled Anger.
This is what happens when you let terrorists walk across your border and you respond by targeting refugees convoys and hospitals. Wait till the ground war starts. That will break Egypt neutral support for Israel. You think this is not going to be a sh#t show all through the ME. There will be a total realignment, minimum a few assassinations of heads of state(Saudi and Egypt) and it will not favor Israel.
Now let’s talk about those leftist democrats, BLM and students who support Palestinians. Oh they are so evil and the cause of all these problems for Israel! If only we can silence those people everything will be fine.
Tunisia is a mess. Has been for a long while. I am sorry for the loss of the Torah, but these days of rage are mostly ridiculous spectacle.
The way American Jews feel about Israelis being slaughtered by Hamas is exactly how Muslims around the world feel about Palestinians being slaughtered by Israel.
You don’t understand their pain? It’s the same pain a Jewish person is feeling right now
They feel so badly that they won't help save the civilians still there. Give me a break
Save them how? Egypt tried and IDF bombed the Rafah crossing. America says sorry peeps, we can’t save tax paying American citizens in Gaza but we can send a ship and planes to Israel to ship American citizens out ASAP.
Do you think Tunisia wants to war with Israel so they can bomb Tunisian hospitals and children too?
People have been waiting at the Rafa border for days. Egypt could open it if they wanted to.
If they do, Israel would bomb the crossing again then go a bit further and accidentally bomb a nearby target in Egypt saying it was to bomb Hamas bunkers. The Egyptians know this.
Who knows? If this shitshow keeps continuing , I see worse escalation to continue and with the American presidents comments, he just endangered all our ambassadors in the Middle East with one single comment. Poor Anthony Blinken looked mortified
Egypt and Jordan said straight out they will not take in Palestinians. Did you not know about that, or do you just want to speculate about what Israel would do, like you are deciding on which move to make in a video game?
Funny you say video game as Israel has produced video games about IDF soldiers where one can kill Palestinians for fun. One is called Bomb Gaza, another was called Code Red:Gaza Assault, and another is called Iron Dome Missile Defense.
Okay. And in Palestine, kindergarten graduations involve putting on skits about kidnapping and murdering Jews.
Cool. You all are terrible people, on both sides. Maybe we should let yall just work it out as you see fit. And not foot the bill.
The Islamophobia and anti-Arab sentiment are so intense on the pro-Israel side. It's really mind-blowing how much hate and racism they get away with while simultaneously accusing all of their detractors of "antisemitism". In a few hundred years, I'm sure the history books will have named this psychosis/era - whatever you call it - but to live it is something else.
Yah. The pro Israel rallies are really frightening with their Palestinian flag burning and chanting death to Palestinians. Not.
I take it you've never seen a settler rally in Israel? They don't chant Death to Palestinians because they deny the very existence of Palestinians. Instead they chant Death to Arabs. Two members of Bibi's cabinet have done it regularly and are quite open with their feelings. There's probably one happening in the West Bank right now.
By the way, those two cabinet members? One is in charge of the Israeli Police while the other is in charge of disbursing government funds.
Are Palestinians not Arabs?
One of the pro-Israel talking points is that there is no “Palestinian” identity, they are just “Arabs” and should therefore go live in some other Arab country. This is an incredibly bigoted hot take.
All of these little countries like Jordan, Lebanon, etc., have their own identity, the people who were forcibly expelled from the land can trace their ancestry there, they are indigenous to the land and people can deny that until they are blue in the face.
It’s not though. The notion of a Palestinian Muslim identity is not an ethnic idea. It’s nationalism and it’s relatively new:
Emergence of a distinct identity
The timing and causes behind the emergence of a distinctively Palestinian national consciousness among the Arabs of Palestine are matters of scholarly disagreement. Some argue that it can be traced as far back as the peasants' revolt in Palestine in 1834 (or even as early as the 17th century), while others argue that it did not emerge until after the Mandatory Palestine period.[59][112] Legal historian Assaf Likhovski states that the prevailing view is that Palestinian identity originated in the early decades of the 20th century,[59] when an embryonic desire among Palestinians for self-government in the face of generalized fears that Zionism would lead to a Jewish state and the dispossession of the Arab majority crystallised among most editors, Christian and Muslim, of local newspapers.[113] The term itself Filasṭīnī was first introduced by Khalīl Beidas in a translation of a Russian work on the Holy Land into Arabic in 1898. After that, its usage gradually spread so that, by 1908, with the loosening of censorship controls under late Ottoman rule, a number of Muslim, Christian and Jewish correspondents writing for newspapers began to use the term with great frequency in referring to the 'Palestinian people'(ahl/ahālī Filasṭīn), 'Palestinians' (al-Filasṭīnīyūn) the 'sons of Palestine(abnā’ Filasṭīn) or to 'Palestinian society',(al-mujtama' al-filasṭīnī).[114]
In Arab countries people primarily tie themselves to their village of origin. My own family can trace our records in our home village at least 500 years, or double the existence of the United States. While a national identity may be relatively new throughout the entire Middle East, this doesn’t mean that people don’t have a clear sense of homeland and place.
But it’s simply fact that the area wasn’t Muslim in any significant numbers until the 1500s.
This idea that Palestinian Arabs existed as some distinct identity for 2,000 years in what is now Israel is completely ahistoric.
This is like denying that Egypt wasn’t a country before Islam. People in the Arab world converted to Islam as it spread. So the Palestinian Muslim’s ancestors may indeed have been in the region for 2,000 years.
Arabs have been in the region. No one disputes that.
But Palestinians as a distinct people did not exist as a concept until much, much later.
I’m really not following your argument. A group of people who are not Jewish have lived in that region for thousands of years. They now call themselves Palestinians. Their religion before 1500 or their understanding of nation-states does not matter. As indigenous people they have ties to the land and it is their homeland as much as anyone else.
Wrong.
If we’re talking literally about what is now Israel, the land was:
1. Jewish
2. Then Roman
3. Then Christian
4. Muslims came in around the 1500s
5. Brits took it over and made it Mandatory Palestine, which had 500,000 Jews and 1 million Muslims
We’re focusing here specifically on the land in question, not the Middle East in general.
This is a totally absurd argument. Land does not have a religion. The people on the land have a religion. If the “land” was Jewish, Roman, whatever, it doesn’t matter. The humans who live on the land have a claim- the Palestinians. If they change their religion or become colonized- they still have a claim on the land.
Then at least be honest and say they aren’t an ethnicity distinct from anyone else. Just say they lived there.
They dont just live there, they are FROM there. That's the point
No. Arabs are not from what is now Palestine.
I don't know who this Palestinian denier is but she clearly knows ZERO actual Arabs in real life. The numbers for Jews in Palestine at the 19th/20th century are incredibly off. Muslims accounted for over 85% of the population in 1880. They began immigrating from Europe in the 1900s and increased numbers dramatically during that time.
The erasure of Palestinians should not be tolerated. It's bad enough that Israelis have kicked them off their land now they usurp culture and deny their existence.
*Jews began immigrating from Europe. That's why numbers started increasing. They doubled their numbers by the 1920s after the mass emigration movements.
Yet Muslims were massacring Jews en masse ? Do you think Jews in a migrant and anti semitic humanitarian crisis in Europe would even settle there if it weren’t safe?
Some Jews even left America to go to Mandatory Palestine because it was more safe there than here with anti Semitism
You miss the point entirely. You can claim all you want that Jews have a claim to the land for 2000 years. Ok. Whatever. We'll assume that there's no statue of limitations and my 2% Ghanian DNA means I can go take back Ghana.
Palestinians living on the land in the 1920s - 1940s (and now), did not care that this group of immigrants had ancestors that once occupied the area over 2000 years ago. All they saw - rightly - were boatloads of immigrants from W and Eastern Europe who were displacing them from their homes. Same in 47 and 48. They arrived as Europeans. you can argue the DNA all you like but they arrived on boats en masse from a different continent with an entirely different culture to the region.
Sure, the land was sold fair and square. We can blame the British. But please stop this line re: Jewish migrants from Europe somehow belonging to the land over the people that had been sitting there for generations.
I agree with you. I wasn’t countering your point. It’s like the Americans disturbed by the migrants suddenly coming to New York on buses and being accommodated in hotels . As Trump says , an “invasion” and many Americans believe him. Palestinian Jews were also disturbed by the Jewish Europeans who suddenly came out of nowhere en masse and were Jewish and spoke different languages and came from a different culture .
In fact, one can make the argument that Israel can’t exist without war as the founders of Zion even said in order to create a diverse Israel with all of her peoples from various nations an Arab or Muslim enemy would be needed to unite the nation
Jews were never Europeans. Stop it.
To the native Palestinians they were. You can continually make these arguments as an American Jew all you want but for people in the 40s seeing ships arriving from Europe they were being invaded by European settlers. They didn't take out DNA tests or bother to ask where their ancestors from 2000 years ago were born. That's a ridiculous notion.
If you cannot understand from that POV, it's on you. Think of yourself however you want. But that is not how others would've seen the settlers in the 40s. And to this day, BTW, Israel still draws immigrants from the US and Europe. Sure, grandparents from 20000000 years back and all, but the natives aren't checking the ancestry.com
That may be their opinion but DNA and history and genealogy traces "European" Ashkenazi Jews right back to the indigenous people native to Palestine thousands of years ago. Was there some intermarriage during the diaspora? Sure. But to call them European and dismissing their documented ties to Palestine denies huge chunks of reality.
Anonymous wrote:The cartoon version of the formation of Israel for the intellectuals who get so far into the weeds, that they believe the Jews are the bad people:
Anonymous wrote:All because of the Big Lie. This is what happens when terrorists declare a Day of Unparalleled Anger.
This is what happens when you let terrorists walk across your border and you respond by targeting refugees convoys and hospitals. Wait till the ground war starts. That will break Egypt neutral support for Israel. You think this is not going to be a sh#t show all through the ME. There will be a total realignment, minimum a few assassinations of heads of state(Saudi and Egypt) and it will not favor Israel.
Now let’s talk about those leftist democrats, BLM and students who support Palestinians. Oh they are so evil and the cause of all these problems for Israel! If only we can silence those people everything will be fine.
Tunisia is a mess. Has been for a long while. I am sorry for the loss of the Torah, but these days of rage are mostly ridiculous spectacle.
The way American Jews feel about Israelis being slaughtered by Hamas is exactly how Muslims around the world feel about Palestinians being slaughtered by Israel.
You don’t understand their pain? It’s the same pain a Jewish person is feeling right now
They feel so badly that they won't help save the civilians still there. Give me a break
Save them how? Egypt tried and IDF bombed the Rafah crossing. America says sorry peeps, we can’t save tax paying American citizens in Gaza but we can send a ship and planes to Israel to ship American citizens out ASAP.
Do you think Tunisia wants to war with Israel so they can bomb Tunisian hospitals and children too?
People have been waiting at the Rafa border for days. Egypt could open it if they wanted to.
If they do, Israel would bomb the crossing again then go a bit further and accidentally bomb a nearby target in Egypt saying it was to bomb Hamas bunkers. The Egyptians know this.
Who knows? If this shitshow keeps continuing , I see worse escalation to continue and with the American presidents comments, he just endangered all our ambassadors in the Middle East with one single comment. Poor Anthony Blinken looked mortified
Egypt and Jordan said straight out they will not take in Palestinians. Did you not know about that, or do you just want to speculate about what Israel would do, like you are deciding on which move to make in a video game?
Funny you say video game as Israel has produced video games about IDF soldiers where one can kill Palestinians for fun. One is called Bomb Gaza, another was called Code Red:Gaza Assault, and another is called Iron Dome Missile Defense.
Okay. And in Palestine, kindergarten graduations involve putting on skits about kidnapping and murdering Jews.
Cool. You all are terrible people, on both sides. Maybe we should let yall just work it out as you see fit. And not foot the bill.
The Islamophobia and anti-Arab sentiment are so intense on the pro-Israel side. It's really mind-blowing how much hate and racism they get away with while simultaneously accusing all of their detractors of "antisemitism". In a few hundred years, I'm sure the history books will have named this psychosis/era - whatever you call it - but to live it is something else.
Yah. The pro Israel rallies are really frightening with their Palestinian flag burning and chanting death to Palestinians. Not.
I take it you've never seen a settler rally in Israel? They don't chant Death to Palestinians because they deny the very existence of Palestinians. Instead they chant Death to Arabs. Two members of Bibi's cabinet have done it regularly and are quite open with their feelings. There's probably one happening in the West Bank right now.
By the way, those two cabinet members? One is in charge of the Israeli Police while the other is in charge of disbursing government funds.
Are Palestinians not Arabs?
One of the pro-Israel talking points is that there is no “Palestinian” identity, they are just “Arabs” and should therefore go live in some other Arab country. This is an incredibly bigoted hot take.
All of these little countries like Jordan, Lebanon, etc., have their own identity, the people who were forcibly expelled from the land can trace their ancestry there, they are indigenous to the land and people can deny that until they are blue in the face.
It’s not though. The notion of a Palestinian Muslim identity is not an ethnic idea. It’s nationalism and it’s relatively new:
Emergence of a distinct identity
The timing and causes behind the emergence of a distinctively Palestinian national consciousness among the Arabs of Palestine are matters of scholarly disagreement. Some argue that it can be traced as far back as the peasants' revolt in Palestine in 1834 (or even as early as the 17th century), while others argue that it did not emerge until after the Mandatory Palestine period.[59][112] Legal historian Assaf Likhovski states that the prevailing view is that Palestinian identity originated in the early decades of the 20th century,[59] when an embryonic desire among Palestinians for self-government in the face of generalized fears that Zionism would lead to a Jewish state and the dispossession of the Arab majority crystallised among most editors, Christian and Muslim, of local newspapers.[113] The term itself Filasṭīnī was first introduced by Khalīl Beidas in a translation of a Russian work on the Holy Land into Arabic in 1898. After that, its usage gradually spread so that, by 1908, with the loosening of censorship controls under late Ottoman rule, a number of Muslim, Christian and Jewish correspondents writing for newspapers began to use the term with great frequency in referring to the 'Palestinian people'(ahl/ahālī Filasṭīn), 'Palestinians' (al-Filasṭīnīyūn) the 'sons of Palestine(abnā’ Filasṭīn) or to 'Palestinian society',(al-mujtama' al-filasṭīnī).[114]
In Arab countries people primarily tie themselves to their village of origin. My own family can trace our records in our home village at least 500 years, or double the existence of the United States. While a national identity may be relatively new throughout the entire Middle East, this doesn’t mean that people don’t have a clear sense of homeland and place.
But it’s simply fact that the area wasn’t Muslim in any significant numbers until the 1500s.
This idea that Palestinian Arabs existed as some distinct identity for 2,000 years in what is now Israel is completely ahistoric.
This is like denying that Egypt wasn’t a country before Islam. People in the Arab world converted to Islam as it spread. So the Palestinian Muslim’s ancestors may indeed have been in the region for 2,000 years.
Arabs have been in the region. No one disputes that.
But Palestinians as a distinct people did not exist as a concept until much, much later.
I’m really not following your argument. A group of people who are not Jewish have lived in that region for thousands of years. They now call themselves Palestinians. Their religion before 1500 or their understanding of nation-states does not matter. As indigenous people they have ties to the land and it is their homeland as much as anyone else.
Wrong.
If we’re talking literally about what is now Israel, the land was:
1. Jewish
2. Then Roman
3. Then Christian
4. Muslims came in around the 1500s
5. Brits took it over and made it Mandatory Palestine, which had 500,000 Jews and 1 million Muslims
We’re focusing here specifically on the land in question, not the Middle East in general.
This is a totally absurd argument. Land does not have a religion. The people on the land have a religion. If the “land” was Jewish, Roman, whatever, it doesn’t matter. The humans who live on the land have a claim- the Palestinians. If they change their religion or become colonized- they still have a claim on the land.
Then at least be honest and say they aren’t an ethnicity distinct from anyone else. Just say they lived there.
They dont just live there, they are FROM there. That's the point
No. Arabs are not from what is now Palestine.
I don't know who this Palestinian denier is but she clearly knows ZERO actual Arabs in real life. The numbers for Jews in Palestine at the 19th/20th century are incredibly off. Muslims accounted for over 85% of the population in 1880. They began immigrating from Europe in the 1900s and increased numbers dramatically during that time.
The erasure of Palestinians should not be tolerated. It's bad enough that Israelis have kicked them off their land now they usurp culture and deny their existence.
*Jews began immigrating from Europe. That's why numbers started increasing. They doubled their numbers by the 1920s after the mass emigration movements.
Yet Muslims were massacring Jews en masse ? Do you think Jews in a migrant and anti semitic humanitarian crisis in Europe would even settle there if it weren’t safe?
Some Jews even left America to go to Mandatory Palestine because it was more safe there than here with anti Semitism
You miss the point entirely. You can claim all you want that Jews have a claim to the land for 2000 years. Ok. Whatever. We'll assume that there's no statue of limitations and my 2% Ghanian DNA means I can go take back Ghana.
Palestinians living on the land in the 1920s - 1940s (and now), did not care that this group of immigrants had ancestors that once occupied the area over 2000 years ago. All they saw - rightly - were boatloads of immigrants from W and Eastern Europe who were displacing them from their homes. Same in 47 and 48. They arrived as Europeans. you can argue the DNA all you like but they arrived on boats en masse from a different continent with an entirely different culture to the region.
Sure, the land was sold fair and square. We can blame the British. But please stop this line re: Jewish migrants from Europe somehow belonging to the land over the people that had been sitting there for generations.
I agree with you. I wasn’t countering your point. It’s like the Americans disturbed by the migrants suddenly coming to New York on buses and being accommodated in hotels . As Trump says , an “invasion” and many Americans believe him. Palestinian Jews were also disturbed by the Jewish Europeans who suddenly came out of nowhere en masse and were Jewish and spoke different languages and came from a different culture .
In fact, one can make the argument that Israel can’t exist without war as the founders of Zion even said in order to create a diverse Israel with all of her peoples from various nations an Arab or Muslim enemy would be needed to unite the nation
Jews were never Europeans. Stop it.
To the native Palestinians they were. You can continually make these arguments as an American Jew all you want but for people in the 40s seeing ships arriving from Europe they were being invaded by European settlers. They didn't take out DNA tests or bother to ask where their ancestors from 2000 years ago were born. That's a ridiculous notion.
If you cannot understand from that POV, it's on you. Think of yourself however you want. But that is not how others would've seen the settlers in the 40s. And to this day, BTW, Israel still draws immigrants from the US and Europe. Sure, grandparents from 20000000 years back and all, but the natives aren't checking the ancestry.com
That may be their opinion but DNA and history and genealogy traces "European" Ashkenazi Jews right back to the indigenous people native to Palestine thousands of years ago. Was there some intermarriage during the diaspora? Sure. But to call them European and dismissing their documented ties to Palestine denies huge chunks of reality.
Okay, so given how important documented ties are, when are you giving your land back to the Native Americans?
Anonymous wrote:All because of the Big Lie. This is what happens when terrorists declare a Day of Unparalleled Anger.
This is what happens when you let terrorists walk across your border and you respond by targeting refugees convoys and hospitals. Wait till the ground war starts. That will break Egypt neutral support for Israel. You think this is not going to be a sh#t show all through the ME. There will be a total realignment, minimum a few assassinations of heads of state(Saudi and Egypt) and it will not favor Israel.
Now let’s talk about those leftist democrats, BLM and students who support Palestinians. Oh they are so evil and the cause of all these problems for Israel! If only we can silence those people everything will be fine.
Tunisia is a mess. Has been for a long while. I am sorry for the loss of the Torah, but these days of rage are mostly ridiculous spectacle.
The way American Jews feel about Israelis being slaughtered by Hamas is exactly how Muslims around the world feel about Palestinians being slaughtered by Israel.
You don’t understand their pain? It’s the same pain a Jewish person is feeling right now
They feel so badly that they won't help save the civilians still there. Give me a break
Save them how? Egypt tried and IDF bombed the Rafah crossing. America says sorry peeps, we can’t save tax paying American citizens in Gaza but we can send a ship and planes to Israel to ship American citizens out ASAP.
Do you think Tunisia wants to war with Israel so they can bomb Tunisian hospitals and children too?
People have been waiting at the Rafa border for days. Egypt could open it if they wanted to.
If they do, Israel would bomb the crossing again then go a bit further and accidentally bomb a nearby target in Egypt saying it was to bomb Hamas bunkers. The Egyptians know this.
Who knows? If this shitshow keeps continuing , I see worse escalation to continue and with the American presidents comments, he just endangered all our ambassadors in the Middle East with one single comment. Poor Anthony Blinken looked mortified
Egypt and Jordan said straight out they will not take in Palestinians. Did you not know about that, or do you just want to speculate about what Israel would do, like you are deciding on which move to make in a video game?
Funny you say video game as Israel has produced video games about IDF soldiers where one can kill Palestinians for fun. One is called Bomb Gaza, another was called Code Red:Gaza Assault, and another is called Iron Dome Missile Defense.
Okay. And in Palestine, kindergarten graduations involve putting on skits about kidnapping and murdering Jews.
Cool. You all are terrible people, on both sides. Maybe we should let yall just work it out as you see fit. And not foot the bill.
The Islamophobia and anti-Arab sentiment are so intense on the pro-Israel side. It's really mind-blowing how much hate and racism they get away with while simultaneously accusing all of their detractors of "antisemitism". In a few hundred years, I'm sure the history books will have named this psychosis/era - whatever you call it - but to live it is something else.
Yah. The pro Israel rallies are really frightening with their Palestinian flag burning and chanting death to Palestinians. Not.
I take it you've never seen a settler rally in Israel? They don't chant Death to Palestinians because they deny the very existence of Palestinians. Instead they chant Death to Arabs. Two members of Bibi's cabinet have done it regularly and are quite open with their feelings. There's probably one happening in the West Bank right now.
By the way, those two cabinet members? One is in charge of the Israeli Police while the other is in charge of disbursing government funds.
Are Palestinians not Arabs?
One of the pro-Israel talking points is that there is no “Palestinian” identity, they are just “Arabs” and should therefore go live in some other Arab country. This is an incredibly bigoted hot take.
All of these little countries like Jordan, Lebanon, etc., have their own identity, the people who were forcibly expelled from the land can trace their ancestry there, they are indigenous to the land and people can deny that until they are blue in the face.
It’s not though. The notion of a Palestinian Muslim identity is not an ethnic idea. It’s nationalism and it’s relatively new:
Emergence of a distinct identity
The timing and causes behind the emergence of a distinctively Palestinian national consciousness among the Arabs of Palestine are matters of scholarly disagreement. Some argue that it can be traced as far back as the peasants' revolt in Palestine in 1834 (or even as early as the 17th century), while others argue that it did not emerge until after the Mandatory Palestine period.[59][112] Legal historian Assaf Likhovski states that the prevailing view is that Palestinian identity originated in the early decades of the 20th century,[59] when an embryonic desire among Palestinians for self-government in the face of generalized fears that Zionism would lead to a Jewish state and the dispossession of the Arab majority crystallised among most editors, Christian and Muslim, of local newspapers.[113] The term itself Filasṭīnī was first introduced by Khalīl Beidas in a translation of a Russian work on the Holy Land into Arabic in 1898. After that, its usage gradually spread so that, by 1908, with the loosening of censorship controls under late Ottoman rule, a number of Muslim, Christian and Jewish correspondents writing for newspapers began to use the term with great frequency in referring to the 'Palestinian people'(ahl/ahālī Filasṭīn), 'Palestinians' (al-Filasṭīnīyūn) the 'sons of Palestine(abnā’ Filasṭīn) or to 'Palestinian society',(al-mujtama' al-filasṭīnī).[114]
In Arab countries people primarily tie themselves to their village of origin. My own family can trace our records in our home village at least 500 years, or double the existence of the United States. While a national identity may be relatively new throughout the entire Middle East, this doesn’t mean that people don’t have a clear sense of homeland and place.
But it’s simply fact that the area wasn’t Muslim in any significant numbers until the 1500s.
This idea that Palestinian Arabs existed as some distinct identity for 2,000 years in what is now Israel is completely ahistoric.
This is like denying that Egypt wasn’t a country before Islam. People in the Arab world converted to Islam as it spread. So the Palestinian Muslim’s ancestors may indeed have been in the region for 2,000 years.
Arabs have been in the region. No one disputes that.
But Palestinians as a distinct people did not exist as a concept until much, much later.
I’m really not following your argument. A group of people who are not Jewish have lived in that region for thousands of years. They now call themselves Palestinians. Their religion before 1500 or their understanding of nation-states does not matter. As indigenous people they have ties to the land and it is their homeland as much as anyone else.
Wrong.
If we’re talking literally about what is now Israel, the land was:
1. Jewish
2. Then Roman
3. Then Christian
4. Muslims came in around the 1500s
5. Brits took it over and made it Mandatory Palestine, which had 500,000 Jews and 1 million Muslims
We’re focusing here specifically on the land in question, not the Middle East in general.
This is a totally absurd argument. Land does not have a religion. The people on the land have a religion. If the “land” was Jewish, Roman, whatever, it doesn’t matter. The humans who live on the land have a claim- the Palestinians. If they change their religion or become colonized- they still have a claim on the land.
Then at least be honest and say they aren’t an ethnicity distinct from anyone else. Just say they lived there.
They dont just live there, they are FROM there. That's the point
No. Arabs are not from what is now Palestine.
I don't know who this Palestinian denier is but she clearly knows ZERO actual Arabs in real life. The numbers for Jews in Palestine at the 19th/20th century are incredibly off. Muslims accounted for over 85% of the population in 1880. They began immigrating from Europe in the 1900s and increased numbers dramatically during that time.
The erasure of Palestinians should not be tolerated. It's bad enough that Israelis have kicked them off their land now they usurp culture and deny their existence.
*Jews began immigrating from Europe. That's why numbers started increasing. They doubled their numbers by the 1920s after the mass emigration movements.
Yet Muslims were massacring Jews en masse ? Do you think Jews in a migrant and anti semitic humanitarian crisis in Europe would even settle there if it weren’t safe?
Some Jews even left America to go to Mandatory Palestine because it was more safe there than here with anti Semitism
You miss the point entirely. You can claim all you want that Jews have a claim to the land for 2000 years. Ok. Whatever. We'll assume that there's no statue of limitations and my 2% Ghanian DNA means I can go take back Ghana.
Palestinians living on the land in the 1920s - 1940s (and now), did not care that this group of immigrants had ancestors that once occupied the area over 2000 years ago. All they saw - rightly - were boatloads of immigrants from W and Eastern Europe who were displacing them from their homes. Same in 47 and 48. They arrived as Europeans. you can argue the DNA all you like but they arrived on boats en masse from a different continent with an entirely different culture to the region.
Sure, the land was sold fair and square. We can blame the British. But please stop this line re: Jewish migrants from Europe somehow belonging to the land over the people that had been sitting there for generations.
I agree with you. I wasn’t countering your point. It’s like the Americans disturbed by the migrants suddenly coming to New York on buses and being accommodated in hotels . As Trump says , an “invasion” and many Americans believe him. Palestinian Jews were also disturbed by the Jewish Europeans who suddenly came out of nowhere en masse and were Jewish and spoke different languages and came from a different culture .
In fact, one can make the argument that Israel can’t exist without war as the founders of Zion even said in order to create a diverse Israel with all of her peoples from various nations an Arab or Muslim enemy would be needed to unite the nation
Jews were never Europeans. Stop it.
To the native Palestinians they were. You can continually make these arguments as an American Jew all you want but for people in the 40s seeing ships arriving from Europe they were being invaded by European settlers. They didn't take out DNA tests or bother to ask where their ancestors from 2000 years ago were born. That's a ridiculous notion.
If you cannot understand from that POV, it's on you. Think of yourself however you want. But that is not how others would've seen the settlers in the 40s. And to this day, BTW, Israel still draws immigrants from the US and Europe. Sure, grandparents from 20000000 years back and all, but the natives aren't checking the ancestry.com
That may be their opinion but DNA and history and genealogy traces "European" Ashkenazi Jews right back to the indigenous people native to Palestine thousands of years ago. Was there some intermarriage during the diaspora? Sure. But to call them European and dismissing their documented ties to Palestine denies huge chunks of reality.
Okay, so given how important documented ties are, when are you giving your land back to the Native Americans?
It was pointed out several pages that in several instances lands and other things are in fact being returned to Native Americans, via the courts. Particularly where the government cheated or reneged on negotiated treaties.
And last time I checked, Native Americans weren't attacking random civilians with rockets and AK-47s to make it happen.
Anonymous wrote:All because of the Big Lie. This is what happens when terrorists declare a Day of Unparalleled Anger.
This is what happens when you let terrorists walk across your border and you respond by targeting refugees convoys and hospitals. Wait till the ground war starts. That will break Egypt neutral support for Israel. You think this is not going to be a sh#t show all through the ME. There will be a total realignment, minimum a few assassinations of heads of state(Saudi and Egypt) and it will not favor Israel.
Now let’s talk about those leftist democrats, BLM and students who support Palestinians. Oh they are so evil and the cause of all these problems for Israel! If only we can silence those people everything will be fine.
Tunisia is a mess. Has been for a long while. I am sorry for the loss of the Torah, but these days of rage are mostly ridiculous spectacle.
The way American Jews feel about Israelis being slaughtered by Hamas is exactly how Muslims around the world feel about Palestinians being slaughtered by Israel.
You don’t understand their pain? It’s the same pain a Jewish person is feeling right now
They feel so badly that they won't help save the civilians still there. Give me a break
Save them how? Egypt tried and IDF bombed the Rafah crossing. America says sorry peeps, we can’t save tax paying American citizens in Gaza but we can send a ship and planes to Israel to ship American citizens out ASAP.
Do you think Tunisia wants to war with Israel so they can bomb Tunisian hospitals and children too?
People have been waiting at the Rafa border for days. Egypt could open it if they wanted to.
If they do, Israel would bomb the crossing again then go a bit further and accidentally bomb a nearby target in Egypt saying it was to bomb Hamas bunkers. The Egyptians know this.
Who knows? If this shitshow keeps continuing , I see worse escalation to continue and with the American presidents comments, he just endangered all our ambassadors in the Middle East with one single comment. Poor Anthony Blinken looked mortified
Egypt and Jordan said straight out they will not take in Palestinians. Did you not know about that, or do you just want to speculate about what Israel would do, like you are deciding on which move to make in a video game?
Funny you say video game as Israel has produced video games about IDF soldiers where one can kill Palestinians for fun. One is called Bomb Gaza, another was called Code Red:Gaza Assault, and another is called Iron Dome Missile Defense.
Okay. And in Palestine, kindergarten graduations involve putting on skits about kidnapping and murdering Jews.
Cool. You all are terrible people, on both sides. Maybe we should let yall just work it out as you see fit. And not foot the bill.
The Islamophobia and anti-Arab sentiment are so intense on the pro-Israel side. It's really mind-blowing how much hate and racism they get away with while simultaneously accusing all of their detractors of "antisemitism". In a few hundred years, I'm sure the history books will have named this psychosis/era - whatever you call it - but to live it is something else.
Yah. The pro Israel rallies are really frightening with their Palestinian flag burning and chanting death to Palestinians. Not.
I take it you've never seen a settler rally in Israel? They don't chant Death to Palestinians because they deny the very existence of Palestinians. Instead they chant Death to Arabs. Two members of Bibi's cabinet have done it regularly and are quite open with their feelings. There's probably one happening in the West Bank right now.
By the way, those two cabinet members? One is in charge of the Israeli Police while the other is in charge of disbursing government funds.
Are Palestinians not Arabs?
One of the pro-Israel talking points is that there is no “Palestinian” identity, they are just “Arabs” and should therefore go live in some other Arab country. This is an incredibly bigoted hot take.
All of these little countries like Jordan, Lebanon, etc., have their own identity, the people who were forcibly expelled from the land can trace their ancestry there, they are indigenous to the land and people can deny that until they are blue in the face.
It’s not though. The notion of a Palestinian Muslim identity is not an ethnic idea. It’s nationalism and it’s relatively new:
Emergence of a distinct identity
The timing and causes behind the emergence of a distinctively Palestinian national consciousness among the Arabs of Palestine are matters of scholarly disagreement. Some argue that it can be traced as far back as the peasants' revolt in Palestine in 1834 (or even as early as the 17th century), while others argue that it did not emerge until after the Mandatory Palestine period.[59][112] Legal historian Assaf Likhovski states that the prevailing view is that Palestinian identity originated in the early decades of the 20th century,[59] when an embryonic desire among Palestinians for self-government in the face of generalized fears that Zionism would lead to a Jewish state and the dispossession of the Arab majority crystallised among most editors, Christian and Muslim, of local newspapers.[113] The term itself Filasṭīnī was first introduced by Khalīl Beidas in a translation of a Russian work on the Holy Land into Arabic in 1898. After that, its usage gradually spread so that, by 1908, with the loosening of censorship controls under late Ottoman rule, a number of Muslim, Christian and Jewish correspondents writing for newspapers began to use the term with great frequency in referring to the 'Palestinian people'(ahl/ahālī Filasṭīn), 'Palestinians' (al-Filasṭīnīyūn) the 'sons of Palestine(abnā’ Filasṭīn) or to 'Palestinian society',(al-mujtama' al-filasṭīnī).[114]
In Arab countries people primarily tie themselves to their village of origin. My own family can trace our records in our home village at least 500 years, or double the existence of the United States. While a national identity may be relatively new throughout the entire Middle East, this doesn’t mean that people don’t have a clear sense of homeland and place.
But it’s simply fact that the area wasn’t Muslim in any significant numbers until the 1500s.
This idea that Palestinian Arabs existed as some distinct identity for 2,000 years in what is now Israel is completely ahistoric.
This is like denying that Egypt wasn’t a country before Islam. People in the Arab world converted to Islam as it spread. So the Palestinian Muslim’s ancestors may indeed have been in the region for 2,000 years.
Arabs have been in the region. No one disputes that.
But Palestinians as a distinct people did not exist as a concept until much, much later.
I’m really not following your argument. A group of people who are not Jewish have lived in that region for thousands of years. They now call themselves Palestinians. Their religion before 1500 or their understanding of nation-states does not matter. As indigenous people they have ties to the land and it is their homeland as much as anyone else.
Wrong.
If we’re talking literally about what is now Israel, the land was:
1. Jewish
2. Then Roman
3. Then Christian
4. Muslims came in around the 1500s
5. Brits took it over and made it Mandatory Palestine, which had 500,000 Jews and 1 million Muslims
We’re focusing here specifically on the land in question, not the Middle East in general.
This is a totally absurd argument. Land does not have a religion. The people on the land have a religion. If the “land” was Jewish, Roman, whatever, it doesn’t matter. The humans who live on the land have a claim- the Palestinians. If they change their religion or become colonized- they still have a claim on the land.
Then at least be honest and say they aren’t an ethnicity distinct from anyone else. Just say they lived there.
They dont just live there, they are FROM there. That's the point
No. Arabs are not from what is now Palestine.
I don't know who this Palestinian denier is but she clearly knows ZERO actual Arabs in real life. The numbers for Jews in Palestine at the 19th/20th century are incredibly off. Muslims accounted for over 85% of the population in 1880. They began immigrating from Europe in the 1900s and increased numbers dramatically during that time.
The erasure of Palestinians should not be tolerated. It's bad enough that Israelis have kicked them off their land now they usurp culture and deny their existence.
*Jews began immigrating from Europe. That's why numbers started increasing. They doubled their numbers by the 1920s after the mass emigration movements.
Yet Muslims were massacring Jews en masse ? Do you think Jews in a migrant and anti semitic humanitarian crisis in Europe would even settle there if it weren’t safe?
Some Jews even left America to go to Mandatory Palestine because it was more safe there than here with anti Semitism
You miss the point entirely. You can claim all you want that Jews have a claim to the land for 2000 years. Ok. Whatever. We'll assume that there's no statue of limitations and my 2% Ghanian DNA means I can go take back Ghana.
Palestinians living on the land in the 1920s - 1940s (and now), did not care that this group of immigrants had ancestors that once occupied the area over 2000 years ago. All they saw - rightly - were boatloads of immigrants from W and Eastern Europe who were displacing them from their homes. Same in 47 and 48. They arrived as Europeans. you can argue the DNA all you like but they arrived on boats en masse from a different continent with an entirely different culture to the region.
Sure, the land was sold fair and square. We can blame the British. But please stop this line re: Jewish migrants from Europe somehow belonging to the land over the people that had been sitting there for generations.
I agree with you. I wasn’t countering your point. It’s like the Americans disturbed by the migrants suddenly coming to New York on buses and being accommodated in hotels . As Trump says , an “invasion” and many Americans believe him. Palestinian Jews were also disturbed by the Jewish Europeans who suddenly came out of nowhere en masse and were Jewish and spoke different languages and came from a different culture .
In fact, one can make the argument that Israel can’t exist without war as the founders of Zion even said in order to create a diverse Israel with all of her peoples from various nations an Arab or Muslim enemy would be needed to unite the nation
Jews were never Europeans. Stop it.
To the native Palestinians they were. You can continually make these arguments as an American Jew all you want but for people in the 40s seeing ships arriving from Europe they were being invaded by European settlers. They didn't take out DNA tests or bother to ask where their ancestors from 2000 years ago were born. That's a ridiculous notion.
If you cannot understand from that POV, it's on you. Think of yourself however you want. But that is not how others would've seen the settlers in the 40s. And to this day, BTW, Israel still draws immigrants from the US and Europe. Sure, grandparents from 20000000 years back and all, but the natives aren't checking the ancestry.com
That may be their opinion but DNA and history and genealogy traces "European" Ashkenazi Jews right back to the indigenous people native to Palestine thousands of years ago. Was there some intermarriage during the diaspora? Sure. But to call them European and dismissing their documented ties to Palestine denies huge chunks of reality.
Okay, so given how important documented ties are, when are you giving your land back to the Native Americans?
I am 100% in favor of giving Palestinians citizenship just like Native Americans. And, since I'm Mexican with indigenous family, I think that I was sort of here first. thank you
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