Anonymous wrote:All because of the Big Lie. This is what happens when terrorists declare a Day of Unparalleled Anger.
This is what happens when you let terrorists walk across your border and you respond by targeting refugees convoys and hospitals. Wait till the ground war starts. That will break Egypt neutral support for Israel. You think this is not going to be a sh#t show all through the ME. There will be a total realignment, minimum a few assassinations of heads of state(Saudi and Egypt) and it will not favor Israel.
Now let’s talk about those leftist democrats, BLM and students who support Palestinians. Oh they are so evil and the cause of all these problems for Israel! If only we can silence those people everything will be fine.
Tunisia is a mess. Has been for a long while. I am sorry for the loss of the Torah, but these days of rage are mostly ridiculous spectacle.
The way American Jews feel about Israelis being slaughtered by Hamas is exactly how Muslims around the world feel about Palestinians being slaughtered by Israel.
You don’t understand their pain? It’s the same pain a Jewish person is feeling right now
They feel so badly that they won't help save the civilians still there. Give me a break
Save them how? Egypt tried and IDF bombed the Rafah crossing. America says sorry peeps, we can’t save tax paying American citizens in Gaza but we can send a ship and planes to Israel to ship American citizens out ASAP.
Do you think Tunisia wants to war with Israel so they can bomb Tunisian hospitals and children too?
People have been waiting at the Rafa border for days. Egypt could open it if they wanted to.
If they do, Israel would bomb the crossing again then go a bit further and accidentally bomb a nearby target in Egypt saying it was to bomb Hamas bunkers. The Egyptians know this.
Who knows? If this shitshow keeps continuing , I see worse escalation to continue and with the American presidents comments, he just endangered all our ambassadors in the Middle East with one single comment. Poor Anthony Blinken looked mortified
Egypt and Jordan said straight out they will not take in Palestinians. Did you not know about that, or do you just want to speculate about what Israel would do, like you are deciding on which move to make in a video game?
Funny you say video game as Israel has produced video games about IDF soldiers where one can kill Palestinians for fun. One is called Bomb Gaza, another was called Code Red:Gaza Assault, and another is called Iron Dome Missile Defense.
Okay. And in Palestine, kindergarten graduations involve putting on skits about kidnapping and murdering Jews.
Cool. You all are terrible people, on both sides. Maybe we should let yall just work it out as you see fit. And not foot the bill.
The Islamophobia and anti-Arab sentiment are so intense on the pro-Israel side. It's really mind-blowing how much hate and racism they get away with while simultaneously accusing all of their detractors of "antisemitism". In a few hundred years, I'm sure the history books will have named this psychosis/era - whatever you call it - but to live it is something else.
Yah. The pro Israel rallies are really frightening with their Palestinian flag burning and chanting death to Palestinians. Not.
I take it you've never seen a settler rally in Israel? They don't chant Death to Palestinians because they deny the very existence of Palestinians. Instead they chant Death to Arabs. Two members of Bibi's cabinet have done it regularly and are quite open with their feelings. There's probably one happening in the West Bank right now.
By the way, those two cabinet members? One is in charge of the Israeli Police while the other is in charge of disbursing government funds.
Are Palestinians not Arabs?
One of the pro-Israel talking points is that there is no “Palestinian” identity, they are just “Arabs” and should therefore go live in some other Arab country. This is an incredibly bigoted hot take.
All of these little countries like Jordan, Lebanon, etc., have their own identity, the people who were forcibly expelled from the land can trace their ancestry there, they are indigenous to the land and people can deny that until they are blue in the face.
It’s not though. The notion of a Palestinian Muslim identity is not an ethnic idea. It’s nationalism and it’s relatively new:
Emergence of a distinct identity
The timing and causes behind the emergence of a distinctively Palestinian national consciousness among the Arabs of Palestine are matters of scholarly disagreement. Some argue that it can be traced as far back as the peasants' revolt in Palestine in 1834 (or even as early as the 17th century), while others argue that it did not emerge until after the Mandatory Palestine period.[59][112] Legal historian Assaf Likhovski states that the prevailing view is that Palestinian identity originated in the early decades of the 20th century,[59] when an embryonic desire among Palestinians for self-government in the face of generalized fears that Zionism would lead to a Jewish state and the dispossession of the Arab majority crystallised among most editors, Christian and Muslim, of local newspapers.[113] The term itself Filasṭīnī was first introduced by Khalīl Beidas in a translation of a Russian work on the Holy Land into Arabic in 1898. After that, its usage gradually spread so that, by 1908, with the loosening of censorship controls under late Ottoman rule, a number of Muslim, Christian and Jewish correspondents writing for newspapers began to use the term with great frequency in referring to the 'Palestinian people'(ahl/ahālī Filasṭīn), 'Palestinians' (al-Filasṭīnīyūn) the 'sons of Palestine(abnā’ Filasṭīn) or to 'Palestinian society',(al-mujtama' al-filasṭīnī).[114]
In Arab countries people primarily tie themselves to their village of origin. My own family can trace our records in our home village at least 500 years, or double the existence of the United States. While a national identity may be relatively new throughout the entire Middle East, this doesn’t mean that people don’t have a clear sense of homeland and place.
But it’s simply fact that the area wasn’t Muslim in any significant numbers until the 1500s.
This idea that Palestinian Arabs existed as some distinct identity for 2,000 years in what is now Israel is completely ahistoric.
This is like denying that Egypt wasn’t a country before Islam. People in the Arab world converted to Islam as it spread. So the Palestinian Muslim’s ancestors may indeed have been in the region for 2,000 years.
Arabs have been in the region. No one disputes that.
But Palestinians as a distinct people did not exist as a concept until much, much later.
I’m really not following your argument. A group of people who are not Jewish have lived in that region for thousands of years. They now call themselves Palestinians. Their religion before 1500 or their understanding of nation-states does not matter. As indigenous people they have ties to the land and it is their homeland as much as anyone else.
Wrong.
If we’re talking literally about what is now Israel, the land was:
1. Jewish
2. Then Roman
3. Then Christian
4. Muslims came in around the 1500s
5. Brits took it over and made it Mandatory Palestine, which had 500,000 Jews and 1 million Muslims
We’re focusing here specifically on the land in question, not the Middle East in general.
This is a totally absurd argument. Land does not have a religion. The people on the land have a religion. If the “land” was Jewish, Roman, whatever, it doesn’t matter. The humans who live on the land have a claim- the Palestinians. If they change their religion or become colonized- they still have a claim on the land.
Then at least be honest and say they aren’t an ethnicity distinct from anyone else. Just say they lived there.
They dont just live there, they are FROM there. That's the point
No. Arabs are not from what is now Palestine.
I don't know who this Palestinian denier is but she clearly knows ZERO actual Arabs in real life. The numbers for Jews in Palestine at the 19th/20th century are incredibly off. Muslims accounted for over 85% of the population in 1880. They began immigrating from Europe in the 1900s and increased numbers dramatically during that time.
The erasure of Palestinians should not be tolerated. It's bad enough that Israelis have kicked them off their land now they usurp culture and deny their existence.
*Jews began immigrating from Europe. That's why numbers started increasing. They doubled their numbers by the 1920s after the mass emigration movements.
Yet Muslims were massacring Jews en masse ? Do you think Jews in a migrant and anti semitic humanitarian crisis in Europe would even settle there if it weren’t safe?
Some Jews even left America to go to Mandatory Palestine because it was more safe there than here with anti Semitism
You miss the point entirely. You can claim all you want that Jews have a claim to the land for 2000 years. Ok. Whatever. We'll assume that there's no statue of limitations and my 2% Ghanian DNA means I can go take back Ghana.
Palestinians living on the land in the 1920s - 1940s (and now), did not care that this group of immigrants had ancestors that once occupied the area over 2000 years ago. All they saw - rightly - were boatloads of immigrants from W and Eastern Europe who were displacing them from their homes. Same in 47 and 48. They arrived as Europeans. you can argue the DNA all you like but they arrived on boats en masse from a different continent with an entirely different culture to the region.
Sure, the land was sold fair and square. We can blame the British. But please stop this line re: Jewish migrants from Europe somehow belonging to the land over the people that had been sitting there for generations.
This is such BS. Jews were IDPs. Stateless. But sure — we were privileged Europeans.
Yes, to the native people on the land they were. Particularly when they started taking their homes and land - and doing so rather violently.
So you can claim the connection all you want, but if you cannot understand it from the position of the people living on the land then you have no possible empathy. If someone tried to take your house now and told you that they used to live their years ago but were forcible moved out to Europe about 50 years ago, you'd tell them to eat it.
Same same.
Well imagine returning to the land where the temples and homes built by your forebears like Solomon and David are still standing, to have someone else claiming it's theirs.
You'd tell them to eat it, right? Well, that's the Arabs.
Are you kidding? I wouldn't expect to reclaim something from 2000 years prior. That's insane. I certainly wouldn't expect temples from biblical times to still be standing, nor would I start throwing around names from the Bible like any of these people would've known them. LOL
Really? Well, the Native Americans reclaimed Kennewick Man. So that's YET ANOTHER bogus argument you've made.
You keep failing with analogy after analogy. Maybe at some point that will sink in.
I'm with PP who thinks this has broken your brain. You realize the American Indian wars were in the late 1800s, right? Let's try counting to 2,000. Plus, the Native Americans never moved to Europe to camp out for a few thousand years and then try to return.
Sorry my friend, I am not the one with the broken brain. You and your little friend cannot even come up with proper, logical or historically accurate analogies.
I'm going to bed, you can continue your smooth-brained circle jerk without me.
You said that you deserve Israel because Solomon and David are your forebears. That is logic?
It's your logic that Arabs deserve Israel because grandpa planted an olive tree, so....
Correct. If your direct ancestors lived and farmed on land and did not sell it, that is your land. I’m glad you are finally figuring this out.
But if your ancestors lived there for a thousand years and built massive temples on it and ALSO DID NOT SELL IT, somehow it's NOT their land.
Some warped logic there.
I guess you figure the paintings and jewelry stolen from Jews by Nazis didn't really belong to the Jews either, right?
Ok once again:
Things you bought and have a direct connection to: yours
Things the Bible says are yours: not necessarily yours
Oh so all of that stone, those massive ancient walls and temples are just a figment of biblical imagination and don't really exist now.
You are quite a piece of work.
Correct. You have zero personal connection to those historical sites. Therefore they do not belong to you.
In fact ancient archaeological sites, like the Pyramids, arguably belong to all of humanity, not just one ethnic group. Although the pyramids are a lot more impressive than anything in Israel.
No one destroyed the pyramids, idiot.
But way to erase Jewish identity. They belong to everyone? Our Western Wall? Our holy sites?
You, as a person, are separate from the heritage of your ethnic group. Just because you have a connection to land does not mean you are owed land. If your ancestors are Egyptian you cannot hop back there and demand a right to live there because pyramids. Destroyed or intact.
Stop lecturing me. After WWII, Jews were stateless. They had nowhere to go.
Tell me where they should have gone. I’d love to hear your ideas.
Having something stolen from you does not give you the right to steal. Two wrongs do not make a right. Perhaps you should ask yourself where the people of Gaza should go now.
Anonymous wrote:All because of the Big Lie. This is what happens when terrorists declare a Day of Unparalleled Anger.
This is what happens when you let terrorists walk across your border and you respond by targeting refugees convoys and hospitals. Wait till the ground war starts. That will break Egypt neutral support for Israel. You think this is not going to be a sh#t show all through the ME. There will be a total realignment, minimum a few assassinations of heads of state(Saudi and Egypt) and it will not favor Israel.
Now let’s talk about those leftist democrats, BLM and students who support Palestinians. Oh they are so evil and the cause of all these problems for Israel! If only we can silence those people everything will be fine.
Tunisia is a mess. Has been for a long while. I am sorry for the loss of the Torah, but these days of rage are mostly ridiculous spectacle.
The way American Jews feel about Israelis being slaughtered by Hamas is exactly how Muslims around the world feel about Palestinians being slaughtered by Israel.
You don’t understand their pain? It’s the same pain a Jewish person is feeling right now
They feel so badly that they won't help save the civilians still there. Give me a break
Save them how? Egypt tried and IDF bombed the Rafah crossing. America says sorry peeps, we can’t save tax paying American citizens in Gaza but we can send a ship and planes to Israel to ship American citizens out ASAP.
Do you think Tunisia wants to war with Israel so they can bomb Tunisian hospitals and children too?
People have been waiting at the Rafa border for days. Egypt could open it if they wanted to.
If they do, Israel would bomb the crossing again then go a bit further and accidentally bomb a nearby target in Egypt saying it was to bomb Hamas bunkers. The Egyptians know this.
Who knows? If this shitshow keeps continuing , I see worse escalation to continue and with the American presidents comments, he just endangered all our ambassadors in the Middle East with one single comment. Poor Anthony Blinken looked mortified
Egypt and Jordan said straight out they will not take in Palestinians. Did you not know about that, or do you just want to speculate about what Israel would do, like you are deciding on which move to make in a video game?
And everybody in the entire world knows why. Unless Israel explicitly guarantees those potential refugees a right of return then they aren't leaving.
The Palestinians are not going anywhere. Israel is never going to be allowed to deport them. Israel and Palestine are both going to have to somehow learn to live with each other.
There are 12,000 people alive today who were displaced in 1948 who live outside Israel. Israel would let them immigrate to Israel in a heartbeat. The issue is with the millions of Palestinians in the diaspora who consider themselves refugees despite having citizenship elsewhere and the Palestinians living in the Middle East who are stateless because they have deliberately been kept as refugees for political purposes for multiple generations. Israel isn’t large enough to accommodate them and the neither is the Palestinian Authority in West Bank (they have the right of return to the later). Many countries limit citizenship for great-grandchildren (e.g., Ireland, Italy, Germany, etc.). A comprehensive peace plan will need to accommodate property compensation for both displaced Arabs and Jews in Middle East, but there is not going to be a peace plan built around Israel absorbing millions of great-grandchildren and great-great grandchildren of displaced Palestinians, especially after the Black Saturday massacres.
Likewise, I'd hope that Israel's right of return to all Jews will be terminated. It is equally detrimental to the peace process.
Well, that’s unlikely to happen when Jews in Tunisia and Iran are getting burned alive or hung in public squares, or murdered in Sweden and France for being Jews. France, Greece, etc. also have liberal rights of return for descendants. As does the US. It’s not a new concept.
Who was burned alive or hung in a public square in Tunisia? You would think the lies and overexaggeration would stop.
An old synagogue was burned but trust me if any Jews died there, we would hear it on CNN. The only death I’ve heard about outside the region is of the 6 year old in Chicago and let’s hope it stays that way. We don’t need any more innocents of either faith dying anywhere else .
I’m not PP, but I wanted to point out that it is the oldest synagogue in Africa.
Which is interesting because according to a person earlier, Muslims and Arabs hated and massacred them like the European Christians did yet they had the freedom to practice their religion and build synagogues openly in the Middle East when Europe and America was hateful and anti Semitic from the 15th-early 20th century
The synagogue hadn’t been used in centuries, but nice try.
Nice try but it was in use till the 1950s. A rabbi from 1945 is buried there. Not exactly centuries.
Tunisians were later arrivals to Israel. They didn’t arrive pre -1948 Israel independence because they weren’t experiencing anti Semitism like other Jews were and they had a thriving Jewish community until 1948 Arab Israeli war.
Anonymous wrote:All because of the Big Lie. This is what happens when terrorists declare a Day of Unparalleled Anger.
This is what happens when you let terrorists walk across your border and you respond by targeting refugees convoys and hospitals. Wait till the ground war starts. That will break Egypt neutral support for Israel. You think this is not going to be a sh#t show all through the ME. There will be a total realignment, minimum a few assassinations of heads of state(Saudi and Egypt) and it will not favor Israel.
Now let’s talk about those leftist democrats, BLM and students who support Palestinians. Oh they are so evil and the cause of all these problems for Israel! If only we can silence those people everything will be fine.
Tunisia is a mess. Has been for a long while. I am sorry for the loss of the Torah, but these days of rage are mostly ridiculous spectacle.
The way American Jews feel about Israelis being slaughtered by Hamas is exactly how Muslims around the world feel about Palestinians being slaughtered by Israel.
You don’t understand their pain? It’s the same pain a Jewish person is feeling right now
They feel so badly that they won't help save the civilians still there. Give me a break
Save them how? Egypt tried and IDF bombed the Rafah crossing. America says sorry peeps, we can’t save tax paying American citizens in Gaza but we can send a ship and planes to Israel to ship American citizens out ASAP.
Do you think Tunisia wants to war with Israel so they can bomb Tunisian hospitals and children too?
People have been waiting at the Rafa border for days. Egypt could open it if they wanted to.
If they do, Israel would bomb the crossing again then go a bit further and accidentally bomb a nearby target in Egypt saying it was to bomb Hamas bunkers. The Egyptians know this.
Who knows? If this shitshow keeps continuing , I see worse escalation to continue and with the American presidents comments, he just endangered all our ambassadors in the Middle East with one single comment. Poor Anthony Blinken looked mortified
Egypt and Jordan said straight out they will not take in Palestinians. Did you not know about that, or do you just want to speculate about what Israel would do, like you are deciding on which move to make in a video game?
Funny you say video game as Israel has produced video games about IDF soldiers where one can kill Palestinians for fun. One is called Bomb Gaza, another was called Code Red:Gaza Assault, and another is called Iron Dome Missile Defense.
Okay. And in Palestine, kindergarten graduations involve putting on skits about kidnapping and murdering Jews.
Cool. You all are terrible people, on both sides. Maybe we should let yall just work it out as you see fit. And not foot the bill.
The Islamophobia and anti-Arab sentiment are so intense on the pro-Israel side. It's really mind-blowing how much hate and racism they get away with while simultaneously accusing all of their detractors of "antisemitism". In a few hundred years, I'm sure the history books will have named this psychosis/era - whatever you call it - but to live it is something else.
Yah. The pro Israel rallies are really frightening with their Palestinian flag burning and chanting death to Palestinians. Not.
I take it you've never seen a settler rally in Israel? They don't chant Death to Palestinians because they deny the very existence of Palestinians. Instead they chant Death to Arabs. Two members of Bibi's cabinet have done it regularly and are quite open with their feelings. There's probably one happening in the West Bank right now.
By the way, those two cabinet members? One is in charge of the Israeli Police while the other is in charge of disbursing government funds.
Are Palestinians not Arabs?
One of the pro-Israel talking points is that there is no “Palestinian” identity, they are just “Arabs” and should therefore go live in some other Arab country. This is an incredibly bigoted hot take.
All of these little countries like Jordan, Lebanon, etc., have their own identity, the people who were forcibly expelled from the land can trace their ancestry there, they are indigenous to the land and people can deny that until they are blue in the face.
It’s not though. The notion of a Palestinian Muslim identity is not an ethnic idea. It’s nationalism and it’s relatively new:
Emergence of a distinct identity
The timing and causes behind the emergence of a distinctively Palestinian national consciousness among the Arabs of Palestine are matters of scholarly disagreement. Some argue that it can be traced as far back as the peasants' revolt in Palestine in 1834 (or even as early as the 17th century), while others argue that it did not emerge until after the Mandatory Palestine period.[59][112] Legal historian Assaf Likhovski states that the prevailing view is that Palestinian identity originated in the early decades of the 20th century,[59] when an embryonic desire among Palestinians for self-government in the face of generalized fears that Zionism would lead to a Jewish state and the dispossession of the Arab majority crystallised among most editors, Christian and Muslim, of local newspapers.[113] The term itself Filasṭīnī was first introduced by Khalīl Beidas in a translation of a Russian work on the Holy Land into Arabic in 1898. After that, its usage gradually spread so that, by 1908, with the loosening of censorship controls under late Ottoman rule, a number of Muslim, Christian and Jewish correspondents writing for newspapers began to use the term with great frequency in referring to the 'Palestinian people'(ahl/ahālī Filasṭīn), 'Palestinians' (al-Filasṭīnīyūn) the 'sons of Palestine(abnā’ Filasṭīn) or to 'Palestinian society',(al-mujtama' al-filasṭīnī).[114]
In Arab countries people primarily tie themselves to their village of origin. My own family can trace our records in our home village at least 500 years, or double the existence of the United States. While a national identity may be relatively new throughout the entire Middle East, this doesn’t mean that people don’t have a clear sense of homeland and place.
But it’s simply fact that the area wasn’t Muslim in any significant numbers until the 1500s.
This idea that Palestinian Arabs existed as some distinct identity for 2,000 years in what is now Israel is completely ahistoric.
This is like denying that Egypt wasn’t a country before Islam. People in the Arab world converted to Islam as it spread. So the Palestinian Muslim’s ancestors may indeed have been in the region for 2,000 years.
Arabs have been in the region. No one disputes that.
But Palestinians as a distinct people did not exist as a concept until much, much later.
I’m really not following your argument. A group of people who are not Jewish have lived in that region for thousands of years. They now call themselves Palestinians. Their religion before 1500 or their understanding of nation-states does not matter. As indigenous people they have ties to the land and it is their homeland as much as anyone else.
Wrong.
If we’re talking literally about what is now Israel, the land was:
1. Jewish
2. Then Roman
3. Then Christian
4. Muslims came in around the 1500s
5. Brits took it over and made it Mandatory Palestine, which had 500,000 Jews and 1 million Muslims
We’re focusing here specifically on the land in question, not the Middle East in general.
This is a totally absurd argument. Land does not have a religion. The people on the land have a religion. If the “land” was Jewish, Roman, whatever, it doesn’t matter. The humans who live on the land have a claim- the Palestinians. If they change their religion or become colonized- they still have a claim on the land.
Then at least be honest and say they aren’t an ethnicity distinct from anyone else. Just say they lived there.
They dont just live there, they are FROM there. That's the point
No. Arabs are not from what is now Palestine.
I don't know who this Palestinian denier is but she clearly knows ZERO actual Arabs in real life. The numbers for Jews in Palestine at the 19th/20th century are incredibly off. Muslims accounted for over 85% of the population in 1880. They began immigrating from Europe in the 1900s and increased numbers dramatically during that time.
The erasure of Palestinians should not be tolerated. It's bad enough that Israelis have kicked them off their land now they usurp culture and deny their existence.
*Jews began immigrating from Europe. That's why numbers started increasing. They doubled their numbers by the 1920s after the mass emigration movements.
Yet Muslims were massacring Jews en masse ? Do you think Jews in a migrant and anti semitic humanitarian crisis in Europe would even settle there if it weren’t safe?
Some Jews even left America to go to Mandatory Palestine because it was more safe there than here with anti Semitism
You miss the point entirely. You can claim all you want that Jews have a claim to the land for 2000 years. Ok. Whatever. We'll assume that there's no statue of limitations and my 2% Ghanian DNA means I can go take back Ghana.
Palestinians living on the land in the 1920s - 1940s (and now), did not care that this group of immigrants had ancestors that once occupied the area over 2000 years ago. All they saw - rightly - were boatloads of immigrants from W and Eastern Europe who were displacing them from their homes. Same in 47 and 48. They arrived as Europeans. you can argue the DNA all you like but they arrived on boats en masse from a different continent with an entirely different culture to the region.
Sure, the land was sold fair and square. We can blame the British. But please stop this line re: Jewish migrants from Europe somehow belonging to the land over the people that had been sitting there for generations.
This is such BS. Jews were IDPs. Stateless. But sure — we were privileged Europeans.
Yes, to the native people on the land they were. Particularly when they started taking their homes and land - and doing so rather violently.
So you can claim the connection all you want, but if you cannot understand it from the position of the people living on the land then you have no possible empathy. If someone tried to take your house now and told you that they used to live their years ago but were forcible moved out to Europe about 50 years ago, you'd tell them to eat it.
Same same.
Well imagine returning to the land where the temples and homes built by your forebears like Solomon and David are still standing, to have someone else claiming it's theirs.
You'd tell them to eat it, right? Well, that's the Arabs.
Are you kidding? I wouldn't expect to reclaim something from 2000 years prior. That's insane. I certainly wouldn't expect temples from biblical times to still be standing, nor would I start throwing around names from the Bible like any of these people would've known them. LOL
Really? Well, the Native Americans reclaimed Kennewick Man. So that's YET ANOTHER bogus argument you've made.
You keep failing with analogy after analogy. Maybe at some point that will sink in.
I'm with PP who thinks this has broken your brain. You realize the American Indian wars were in the late 1800s, right? Let's try counting to 2,000. Plus, the Native Americans never moved to Europe to camp out for a few thousand years and then try to return.
Sorry my friend, I am not the one with the broken brain. You and your little friend cannot even come up with proper, logical or historically accurate analogies.
I'm going to bed, you can continue your smooth-brained circle jerk without me.
You said that you deserve Israel because Solomon and David are your forebears. That is logic?
It's your logic that Arabs deserve Israel because grandpa planted an olive tree, so....
Correct. If your direct ancestors lived and farmed on land and did not sell it, that is your land. I’m glad you are finally figuring this out.
But if your ancestors lived there for a thousand years and built massive temples on it and ALSO DID NOT SELL IT, somehow it's NOT their land.
Some warped logic there.
I guess you figure the paintings and jewelry stolen from Jews by Nazis didn't really belong to the Jews either, right?
Ok once again:
Things you bought and have a direct connection to: yours
Things the Bible says are yours: not necessarily yours
Oh so all of that stone, those massive ancient walls and temples are just a figment of biblical imagination and don't really exist now. :lol: :lol: :lol:
You are quite a piece of work.
Correct. You have zero personal connection to those historical sites. Therefore they do not belong to you.
In fact ancient archaeological sites, like the Pyramids, arguably belong to all of humanity, not just one ethnic group. Although the pyramids are a lot more impressive than anything in Israel.
No one destroyed the pyramids, idiot.
But way to erase Jewish identity. They belong to everyone? Our Western Wall? Our holy sites?
You, as a person, are separate from the heritage of your ethnic group. Just because you have a connection to land does not mean you are owed land. If your ancestors are Egyptian you cannot hop back there and demand a right to live there because pyramids. Destroyed or intact.
Stop lecturing me. After WWII, Jews were stateless. They had nowhere to go.
Tell me where they should have gone. I’d love to hear your ideas.
Having something stolen from you does not give you the right to steal. Two wrongs do not make a right. Perhaps you should ask yourself where the people of Gaza should go now.
I believe in a two state solution.
But you didn’t answer my question. Where should Jews have gone in 1945?
How about the stateless people in the West Bank who are being displaced by settlers? Where should they go now? There is no two state solution. There is not enough land in the West Bank. The border of the West Bank is insane because of settlements. Israel could never allow Palestine to have a real military, and it has no real borders. Palestinians are stateless people living within the framework of Israel’s apartheid regime.
What happened in 1945 is over. Now there is another group of stateless people. Where should they go?
Classic deflection.
It is not. One question directly leads to another. One people were “stateless,” so they took someone else’s land and now new people are “stateless.” What a sad irony. Where are the people of the West Bank and Gaza supposed to go? They are truly stateless and Israel is not offering them a piece of Europe the way Europeans gave them Palestine.
Anonymous wrote:All because of the Big Lie. This is what happens when terrorists declare a Day of Unparalleled Anger.
This is what happens when you let terrorists walk across your border and you respond by targeting refugees convoys and hospitals. Wait till the ground war starts. That will break Egypt neutral support for Israel. You think this is not going to be a sh#t show all through the ME. There will be a total realignment, minimum a few assassinations of heads of state(Saudi and Egypt) and it will not favor Israel.
Now let’s talk about those leftist democrats, BLM and students who support Palestinians. Oh they are so evil and the cause of all these problems for Israel! If only we can silence those people everything will be fine.
Tunisia is a mess. Has been for a long while. I am sorry for the loss of the Torah, but these days of rage are mostly ridiculous spectacle.
The way American Jews feel about Israelis being slaughtered by Hamas is exactly how Muslims around the world feel about Palestinians being slaughtered by Israel.
You don’t understand their pain? It’s the same pain a Jewish person is feeling right now
They feel so badly that they won't help save the civilians still there. Give me a break
Save them how? Egypt tried and IDF bombed the Rafah crossing. America says sorry peeps, we can’t save tax paying American citizens in Gaza but we can send a ship and planes to Israel to ship American citizens out ASAP.
Do you think Tunisia wants to war with Israel so they can bomb Tunisian hospitals and children too?
People have been waiting at the Rafa border for days. Egypt could open it if they wanted to.
If they do, Israel would bomb the crossing again then go a bit further and accidentally bomb a nearby target in Egypt saying it was to bomb Hamas bunkers. The Egyptians know this.
Who knows? If this shitshow keeps continuing , I see worse escalation to continue and with the American presidents comments, he just endangered all our ambassadors in the Middle East with one single comment. Poor Anthony Blinken looked mortified
Egypt and Jordan said straight out they will not take in Palestinians. Did you not know about that, or do you just want to speculate about what Israel would do, like you are deciding on which move to make in a video game?
Funny you say video game as Israel has produced video games about IDF soldiers where one can kill Palestinians for fun. One is called Bomb Gaza, another was called Code Red:Gaza Assault, and another is called Iron Dome Missile Defense.
Okay. And in Palestine, kindergarten graduations involve putting on skits about kidnapping and murdering Jews.
Cool. You all are terrible people, on both sides. Maybe we should let yall just work it out as you see fit. And not foot the bill.
The Islamophobia and anti-Arab sentiment are so intense on the pro-Israel side. It's really mind-blowing how much hate and racism they get away with while simultaneously accusing all of their detractors of "antisemitism". In a few hundred years, I'm sure the history books will have named this psychosis/era - whatever you call it - but to live it is something else.
Yah. The pro Israel rallies are really frightening with their Palestinian flag burning and chanting death to Palestinians. Not.
I take it you've never seen a settler rally in Israel? They don't chant Death to Palestinians because they deny the very existence of Palestinians. Instead they chant Death to Arabs. Two members of Bibi's cabinet have done it regularly and are quite open with their feelings. There's probably one happening in the West Bank right now.
By the way, those two cabinet members? One is in charge of the Israeli Police while the other is in charge of disbursing government funds.
Are Palestinians not Arabs?
One of the pro-Israel talking points is that there is no “Palestinian” identity, they are just “Arabs” and should therefore go live in some other Arab country. This is an incredibly bigoted hot take.
All of these little countries like Jordan, Lebanon, etc., have their own identity, the people who were forcibly expelled from the land can trace their ancestry there, they are indigenous to the land and people can deny that until they are blue in the face.
It’s not though. The notion of a Palestinian Muslim identity is not an ethnic idea. It’s nationalism and it’s relatively new:
Emergence of a distinct identity
The timing and causes behind the emergence of a distinctively Palestinian national consciousness among the Arabs of Palestine are matters of scholarly disagreement. Some argue that it can be traced as far back as the peasants' revolt in Palestine in 1834 (or even as early as the 17th century), while others argue that it did not emerge until after the Mandatory Palestine period.[59][112] Legal historian Assaf Likhovski states that the prevailing view is that Palestinian identity originated in the early decades of the 20th century,[59] when an embryonic desire among Palestinians for self-government in the face of generalized fears that Zionism would lead to a Jewish state and the dispossession of the Arab majority crystallised among most editors, Christian and Muslim, of local newspapers.[113] The term itself Filasṭīnī was first introduced by Khalīl Beidas in a translation of a Russian work on the Holy Land into Arabic in 1898. After that, its usage gradually spread so that, by 1908, with the loosening of censorship controls under late Ottoman rule, a number of Muslim, Christian and Jewish correspondents writing for newspapers began to use the term with great frequency in referring to the 'Palestinian people'(ahl/ahālī Filasṭīn), 'Palestinians' (al-Filasṭīnīyūn) the 'sons of Palestine(abnā’ Filasṭīn) or to 'Palestinian society',(al-mujtama' al-filasṭīnī).[114]
In Arab countries people primarily tie themselves to their village of origin. My own family can trace our records in our home village at least 500 years, or double the existence of the United States. While a national identity may be relatively new throughout the entire Middle East, this doesn’t mean that people don’t have a clear sense of homeland and place.
But it’s simply fact that the area wasn’t Muslim in any significant numbers until the 1500s.
This idea that Palestinian Arabs existed as some distinct identity for 2,000 years in what is now Israel is completely ahistoric.
This is like denying that Egypt wasn’t a country before Islam. People in the Arab world converted to Islam as it spread. So the Palestinian Muslim’s ancestors may indeed have been in the region for 2,000 years.
Arabs have been in the region. No one disputes that.
But Palestinians as a distinct people did not exist as a concept until much, much later.
I’m really not following your argument. A group of people who are not Jewish have lived in that region for thousands of years. They now call themselves Palestinians. Their religion before 1500 or their understanding of nation-states does not matter. As indigenous people they have ties to the land and it is their homeland as much as anyone else.
Wrong.
If we’re talking literally about what is now Israel, the land was:
1. Jewish
2. Then Roman
3. Then Christian
4. Muslims came in around the 1500s
5. Brits took it over and made it Mandatory Palestine, which had 500,000 Jews and 1 million Muslims
We’re focusing here specifically on the land in question, not the Middle East in general.
This is a totally absurd argument. Land does not have a religion. The people on the land have a religion. If the “land” was Jewish, Roman, whatever, it doesn’t matter. The humans who live on the land have a claim- the Palestinians. If they change their religion or become colonized- they still have a claim on the land.
Then at least be honest and say they aren’t an ethnicity distinct from anyone else. Just say they lived there.
They dont just live there, they are FROM there. That's the point
No. Arabs are not from what is now Palestine.
I don't know who this Palestinian denier is but she clearly knows ZERO actual Arabs in real life. The numbers for Jews in Palestine at the 19th/20th century are incredibly off. Muslims accounted for over 85% of the population in 1880. They began immigrating from Europe in the 1900s and increased numbers dramatically during that time.
The erasure of Palestinians should not be tolerated. It's bad enough that Israelis have kicked them off their land now they usurp culture and deny their existence.
*Jews began immigrating from Europe. That's why numbers started increasing. They doubled their numbers by the 1920s after the mass emigration movements.
Yet Muslims were massacring Jews en masse ? Do you think Jews in a migrant and anti semitic humanitarian crisis in Europe would even settle there if it weren’t safe?
Some Jews even left America to go to Mandatory Palestine because it was more safe there than here with anti Semitism
You miss the point entirely. You can claim all you want that Jews have a claim to the land for 2000 years. Ok. Whatever. We'll assume that there's no statue of limitations and my 2% Ghanian DNA means I can go take back Ghana.
Palestinians living on the land in the 1920s - 1940s (and now), did not care that this group of immigrants had ancestors that once occupied the area over 2000 years ago. All they saw - rightly - were boatloads of immigrants from W and Eastern Europe who were displacing them from their homes. Same in 47 and 48. They arrived as Europeans. you can argue the DNA all you like but they arrived on boats en masse from a different continent with an entirely different culture to the region.
Sure, the land was sold fair and square. We can blame the British. But please stop this line re: Jewish migrants from Europe somehow belonging to the land over the people that had been sitting there for generations.
I agree with you. I wasn’t countering your point. It’s like the Americans disturbed by the migrants suddenly coming to New York on buses and being accommodated in hotels . As Trump says , an “invasion” and many Americans believe him. Palestinian Jews were also disturbed by the Jewish Europeans who suddenly came out of nowhere en masse and were Jewish and spoke different languages and came from a different culture .
In fact, one can make the argument that Israel can’t exist without war as the founders of Zion even said in order to create a diverse Israel with all of her peoples from various nations an Arab or Muslim enemy would be needed to unite the nation
Jews were never Europeans. Stop it.
You stop it. If my grandparents speak Russian or Yiddish, I’m European .
I may not be Christian but I’m still European in culture, language, dress, and custom.
Ashkenazis and Mizrahis were alien to each other and in some ways still are.
My grandparents came from Belarus. They most certainly were not considered European, or Russian. Not by Russians and not by themselves. They were not European in culture, language, dress and custom. Like not even a little bit. When they arrived in America, their passports were stamped "Hebrew".
Just ask any European if Jews are European. They aren't now, and they certainly weren't then.
IDF has neutralized 10 terrorists in a single, ‘precision’ strike. So, too, has a senior Hamas female political leader been neutralized. May peace come to the troubled land, with statespeople who find the courage to do so.
Anonymous wrote:Israel -Palestine is a failed state if you really look at it objectively . Successful people on their own , but their countries are a hot mess. The countries don’t even make sense.
Gaza and West Bank don’t share a border yet they’re Palestine .
Israel needs an Iron dome to protect itself and safe rooms.
It’s the only Jewish country surrounded by Muslim countries who hate them and they hate as well.
They are surrounded on both ends by Palestinians they occupy (west bank and Gaza) .
Gaza should be a beach resort town making money off the Jews but instead the Hamas wants to kill and drive the Jews to the sea.
Gaza is not allowed to have any ports by Israel despite the sea access.
Israel needs child soldiers and a mandatory military service for males and females at age 16-18 or something .
Palestinians have no army and no diplomatic embassies or any currency . They use Israeli money or Jordanian dinar.
The government and IDF are powerless against the settlers who stop at nothing to intimidate Palestinian families in their own territory in the West Bank
More Palestinians are stateless refugees with no passport who live in Jordan and Lebanon.
Some are so used to welfare of living in the camps They wouldn’t even want to return or go anywhere else and get a job . Likewise, some Jews apparently can’t even serve in the military (these same settlers) or get a job because they need to read Torah all day.
Anonymous wrote:All because of the Big Lie. This is what happens when terrorists declare a Day of Unparalleled Anger.
This is what happens when you let terrorists walk across your border and you respond by targeting refugees convoys and hospitals. Wait till the ground war starts. That will break Egypt neutral support for Israel. You think this is not going to be a sh#t show all through the ME. There will be a total realignment, minimum a few assassinations of heads of state(Saudi and Egypt) and it will not favor Israel.
Now let’s talk about those leftist democrats, BLM and students who support Palestinians. Oh they are so evil and the cause of all these problems for Israel! If only we can silence those people everything will be fine.
Tunisia is a mess. Has been for a long while. I am sorry for the loss of the Torah, but these days of rage are mostly ridiculous spectacle.
The way American Jews feel about Israelis being slaughtered by Hamas is exactly how Muslims around the world feel about Palestinians being slaughtered by Israel.
You don’t understand their pain? It’s the same pain a Jewish person is feeling right now
They feel so badly that they won't help save the civilians still there. Give me a break
Save them how? Egypt tried and IDF bombed the Rafah crossing. America says sorry peeps, we can’t save tax paying American citizens in Gaza but we can send a ship and planes to Israel to ship American citizens out ASAP.
Do you think Tunisia wants to war with Israel so they can bomb Tunisian hospitals and children too?
People have been waiting at the Rafa border for days. Egypt could open it if they wanted to.
If they do, Israel would bomb the crossing again then go a bit further and accidentally bomb a nearby target in Egypt saying it was to bomb Hamas bunkers. The Egyptians know this.
Who knows? If this shitshow keeps continuing , I see worse escalation to continue and with the American presidents comments, he just endangered all our ambassadors in the Middle East with one single comment. Poor Anthony Blinken looked mortified
Egypt and Jordan said straight out they will not take in Palestinians. Did you not know about that, or do you just want to speculate about what Israel would do, like you are deciding on which move to make in a video game?
Funny you say video game as Israel has produced video games about IDF soldiers where one can kill Palestinians for fun. One is called Bomb Gaza, another was called Code Red:Gaza Assault, and another is called Iron Dome Missile Defense.
Okay. And in Palestine, kindergarten graduations involve putting on skits about kidnapping and murdering Jews.
Cool. You all are terrible people, on both sides. Maybe we should let yall just work it out as you see fit. And not foot the bill.
The Islamophobia and anti-Arab sentiment are so intense on the pro-Israel side. It's really mind-blowing how much hate and racism they get away with while simultaneously accusing all of their detractors of "antisemitism". In a few hundred years, I'm sure the history books will have named this psychosis/era - whatever you call it - but to live it is something else.
Yah. The pro Israel rallies are really frightening with their Palestinian flag burning and chanting death to Palestinians. Not.
I take it you've never seen a settler rally in Israel? They don't chant Death to Palestinians because they deny the very existence of Palestinians. Instead they chant Death to Arabs. Two members of Bibi's cabinet have done it regularly and are quite open with their feelings. There's probably one happening in the West Bank right now.
By the way, those two cabinet members? One is in charge of the Israeli Police while the other is in charge of disbursing government funds.
Are Palestinians not Arabs?
One of the pro-Israel talking points is that there is no “Palestinian” identity, they are just “Arabs” and should therefore go live in some other Arab country. This is an incredibly bigoted hot take.
All of these little countries like Jordan, Lebanon, etc., have their own identity, the people who were forcibly expelled from the land can trace their ancestry there, they are indigenous to the land and people can deny that until they are blue in the face.
It’s not though. The notion of a Palestinian Muslim identity is not an ethnic idea. It’s nationalism and it’s relatively new:
Emergence of a distinct identity
The timing and causes behind the emergence of a distinctively Palestinian national consciousness among the Arabs of Palestine are matters of scholarly disagreement. Some argue that it can be traced as far back as the peasants' revolt in Palestine in 1834 (or even as early as the 17th century), while others argue that it did not emerge until after the Mandatory Palestine period.[59][112] Legal historian Assaf Likhovski states that the prevailing view is that Palestinian identity originated in the early decades of the 20th century,[59] when an embryonic desire among Palestinians for self-government in the face of generalized fears that Zionism would lead to a Jewish state and the dispossession of the Arab majority crystallised among most editors, Christian and Muslim, of local newspapers.[113] The term itself Filasṭīnī was first introduced by Khalīl Beidas in a translation of a Russian work on the Holy Land into Arabic in 1898. After that, its usage gradually spread so that, by 1908, with the loosening of censorship controls under late Ottoman rule, a number of Muslim, Christian and Jewish correspondents writing for newspapers began to use the term with great frequency in referring to the 'Palestinian people'(ahl/ahālī Filasṭīn), 'Palestinians' (al-Filasṭīnīyūn) the 'sons of Palestine(abnā’ Filasṭīn) or to 'Palestinian society',(al-mujtama' al-filasṭīnī).[114]
In Arab countries people primarily tie themselves to their village of origin. My own family can trace our records in our home village at least 500 years, or double the existence of the United States. While a national identity may be relatively new throughout the entire Middle East, this doesn’t mean that people don’t have a clear sense of homeland and place.
But it’s simply fact that the area wasn’t Muslim in any significant numbers until the 1500s.
This idea that Palestinian Arabs existed as some distinct identity for 2,000 years in what is now Israel is completely ahistoric.
This is like denying that Egypt wasn’t a country before Islam. People in the Arab world converted to Islam as it spread. So the Palestinian Muslim’s ancestors may indeed have been in the region for 2,000 years.
Arabs have been in the region. No one disputes that.
But Palestinians as a distinct people did not exist as a concept until much, much later.
I’m really not following your argument. A group of people who are not Jewish have lived in that region for thousands of years. They now call themselves Palestinians. Their religion before 1500 or their understanding of nation-states does not matter. As indigenous people they have ties to the land and it is their homeland as much as anyone else.
Wrong.
If we’re talking literally about what is now Israel, the land was:
1. Jewish
2. Then Roman
3. Then Christian
4. Muslims came in around the 1500s
5. Brits took it over and made it Mandatory Palestine, which had 500,000 Jews and 1 million Muslims
We’re focusing here specifically on the land in question, not the Middle East in general.
This is a totally absurd argument. Land does not have a religion. The people on the land have a religion. If the “land” was Jewish, Roman, whatever, it doesn’t matter. The humans who live on the land have a claim- the Palestinians. If they change their religion or become colonized- they still have a claim on the land.
Then at least be honest and say they aren’t an ethnicity distinct from anyone else. Just say they lived there.
They dont just live there, they are FROM there. That's the point
No. Arabs are not from what is now Palestine.
Oh I get it. You are trying to equate Jews as an ethnicity and religion with Arabs, which is just an ethnicity. Did you know that Arabs come in all religions? Because it's actually an ethnicity? And they also come from all over the middle east? And some are black and some are white and some have Turkish background and some do not. And they all speak different dialects. And did you know that the Arabs who live in what is now Palestine are actually from there? And they speak their own dialect? And many of them are Muslim and some of them are also Christian and other things? And that what makes them a people is that they are Arab, not their religion? This is what is different from the Jews
What? No.
I am explaining that Palestinians are not a distinct ethnicity.
I never disputed Arabs are an ethnicity.’
No one said Palestinians are a distinct ethnicity. They are distinct nationality. There is a difference. It does not matter whether their nationality was formed 130 years ago or 50 years ago. They are a distinct nationality from Egyptians and Iraqis and saudis. And furthermore they are a people whose homeland is where they live currently
Then at least admit they are a nationality divorced from religion and defined solely by geography.
What are you trying to get at? That because Israel is a country defined by a religion, Jewish people have a more critical claim on the land? This is actually a recipe for apartheid, theocracy, and disaster. Almost all nationalities are defined by homeland, not religion.
I believe jews may be the only ethnicity that defines itself primarily by religion. Most other ethnicities define themselves by community, language, shared experience, and homeland.
It’s why evangelicals and Saudis like Jews. They believe in religious states /identity too.
There used to be Jews in Saudi Arabia in the early 20th century . Many people find it fascinating that nobody can find traces of these Saudi Jews anymore . Not in Israel , not in Saudi. Where did they go?
Anonymous wrote:All because of the Big Lie. This is what happens when terrorists declare a Day of Unparalleled Anger.
This is what happens when you let terrorists walk across your border and you respond by targeting refugees convoys and hospitals. Wait till the ground war starts. That will break Egypt neutral support for Israel. You think this is not going to be a sh#t show all through the ME. There will be a total realignment, minimum a few assassinations of heads of state(Saudi and Egypt) and it will not favor Israel.
Now let’s talk about those leftist democrats, BLM and students who support Palestinians. Oh they are so evil and the cause of all these problems for Israel! If only we can silence those people everything will be fine.
Tunisia is a mess. Has been for a long while. I am sorry for the loss of the Torah, but these days of rage are mostly ridiculous spectacle.
The way American Jews feel about Israelis being slaughtered by Hamas is exactly how Muslims around the world feel about Palestinians being slaughtered by Israel.
You don’t understand their pain? It’s the same pain a Jewish person is feeling right now
They feel so badly that they won't help save the civilians still there. Give me a break
Save them how? Egypt tried and IDF bombed the Rafah crossing. America says sorry peeps, we can’t save tax paying American citizens in Gaza but we can send a ship and planes to Israel to ship American citizens out ASAP.
Do you think Tunisia wants to war with Israel so they can bomb Tunisian hospitals and children too?
People have been waiting at the Rafa border for days. Egypt could open it if they wanted to.
If they do, Israel would bomb the crossing again then go a bit further and accidentally bomb a nearby target in Egypt saying it was to bomb Hamas bunkers. The Egyptians know this.
Who knows? If this shitshow keeps continuing , I see worse escalation to continue and with the American presidents comments, he just endangered all our ambassadors in the Middle East with one single comment. Poor Anthony Blinken looked mortified
Egypt and Jordan said straight out they will not take in Palestinians. Did you not know about that, or do you just want to speculate about what Israel would do, like you are deciding on which move to make in a video game?
Funny you say video game as Israel has produced video games about IDF soldiers where one can kill Palestinians for fun. One is called Bomb Gaza, another was called Code Red:Gaza Assault, and another is called Iron Dome Missile Defense.
Okay. And in Palestine, kindergarten graduations involve putting on skits about kidnapping and murdering Jews.
Cool. You all are terrible people, on both sides. Maybe we should let yall just work it out as you see fit. And not foot the bill.
The Islamophobia and anti-Arab sentiment are so intense on the pro-Israel side. It's really mind-blowing how much hate and racism they get away with while simultaneously accusing all of their detractors of "antisemitism". In a few hundred years, I'm sure the history books will have named this psychosis/era - whatever you call it - but to live it is something else.
Yah. The pro Israel rallies are really frightening with their Palestinian flag burning and chanting death to Palestinians. Not.
I take it you've never seen a settler rally in Israel? They don't chant Death to Palestinians because they deny the very existence of Palestinians. Instead they chant Death to Arabs. Two members of Bibi's cabinet have done it regularly and are quite open with their feelings. There's probably one happening in the West Bank right now.
By the way, those two cabinet members? One is in charge of the Israeli Police while the other is in charge of disbursing government funds.
Are Palestinians not Arabs?
One of the pro-Israel talking points is that there is no “Palestinian” identity, they are just “Arabs” and should therefore go live in some other Arab country. This is an incredibly bigoted hot take.
All of these little countries like Jordan, Lebanon, etc., have their own identity, the people who were forcibly expelled from the land can trace their ancestry there, they are indigenous to the land and people can deny that until they are blue in the face.
It’s not though. The notion of a Palestinian Muslim identity is not an ethnic idea. It’s nationalism and it’s relatively new:
Emergence of a distinct identity
The timing and causes behind the emergence of a distinctively Palestinian national consciousness among the Arabs of Palestine are matters of scholarly disagreement. Some argue that it can be traced as far back as the peasants' revolt in Palestine in 1834 (or even as early as the 17th century), while others argue that it did not emerge until after the Mandatory Palestine period.[59][112] Legal historian Assaf Likhovski states that the prevailing view is that Palestinian identity originated in the early decades of the 20th century,[59] when an embryonic desire among Palestinians for self-government in the face of generalized fears that Zionism would lead to a Jewish state and the dispossession of the Arab majority crystallised among most editors, Christian and Muslim, of local newspapers.[113] The term itself Filasṭīnī was first introduced by Khalīl Beidas in a translation of a Russian work on the Holy Land into Arabic in 1898. After that, its usage gradually spread so that, by 1908, with the loosening of censorship controls under late Ottoman rule, a number of Muslim, Christian and Jewish correspondents writing for newspapers began to use the term with great frequency in referring to the 'Palestinian people'(ahl/ahālī Filasṭīn), 'Palestinians' (al-Filasṭīnīyūn) the 'sons of Palestine(abnā’ Filasṭīn) or to 'Palestinian society',(al-mujtama' al-filasṭīnī).[114]
In Arab countries people primarily tie themselves to their village of origin. My own family can trace our records in our home village at least 500 years, or double the existence of the United States. While a national identity may be relatively new throughout the entire Middle East, this doesn’t mean that people don’t have a clear sense of homeland and place.
But it’s simply fact that the area wasn’t Muslim in any significant numbers until the 1500s.
This idea that Palestinian Arabs existed as some distinct identity for 2,000 years in what is now Israel is completely ahistoric.
This is like denying that Egypt wasn’t a country before Islam. People in the Arab world converted to Islam as it spread. So the Palestinian Muslim’s ancestors may indeed have been in the region for 2,000 years.
Arabs have been in the region. No one disputes that.
But Palestinians as a distinct people did not exist as a concept until much, much later.
I’m really not following your argument. A group of people who are not Jewish have lived in that region for thousands of years. They now call themselves Palestinians. Their religion before 1500 or their understanding of nation-states does not matter. As indigenous people they have ties to the land and it is their homeland as much as anyone else.
Wrong.
If we’re talking literally about what is now Israel, the land was:
1. Jewish
2. Then Roman
3. Then Christian
4. Muslims came in around the 1500s
5. Brits took it over and made it Mandatory Palestine, which had 500,000 Jews and 1 million Muslims
We’re focusing here specifically on the land in question, not the Middle East in general.
This is a totally absurd argument. Land does not have a religion. The people on the land have a religion. If the “land” was Jewish, Roman, whatever, it doesn’t matter. The humans who live on the land have a claim- the Palestinians. If they change their religion or become colonized- they still have a claim on the land.
Then at least be honest and say they aren’t an ethnicity distinct from anyone else. Just say they lived there.
They dont just live there, they are FROM there. That's the point
No. Arabs are not from what is now Palestine.
I don't know who this Palestinian denier is but she clearly knows ZERO actual Arabs in real life. The numbers for Jews in Palestine at the 19th/20th century are incredibly off. Muslims accounted for over 85% of the population in 1880. They began immigrating from Europe in the 1900s and increased numbers dramatically during that time.
The erasure of Palestinians should not be tolerated. It's bad enough that Israelis have kicked them off their land now they usurp culture and deny their existence.
*Jews began immigrating from Europe. That's why numbers started increasing. They doubled their numbers by the 1920s after the mass emigration movements.
Yet Muslims were massacring Jews en masse ? Do you think Jews in a migrant and anti semitic humanitarian crisis in Europe would even settle there if it weren’t safe?
Some Jews even left America to go to Mandatory Palestine because it was more safe there than here with anti Semitism
You miss the point entirely. You can claim all you want that Jews have a claim to the land for 2000 years. Ok. Whatever. We'll assume that there's no statue of limitations and my 2% Ghanian DNA means I can go take back Ghana.
Palestinians living on the land in the 1920s - 1940s (and now), did not care that this group of immigrants had ancestors that once occupied the area over 2000 years ago. All they saw - rightly - were boatloads of immigrants from W and Eastern Europe who were displacing them from their homes. Same in 47 and 48. They arrived as Europeans. you can argue the DNA all you like but they arrived on boats en masse from a different continent with an entirely different culture to the region.
Sure, the land was sold fair and square. We can blame the British. But please stop this line re: Jewish migrants from Europe somehow belonging to the land over the people that had been sitting there for generations.
I agree with you. I wasn’t countering your point. It’s like the Americans disturbed by the migrants suddenly coming to New York on buses and being accommodated in hotels . As Trump says , an “invasion” and many Americans believe him. Palestinian Jews were also disturbed by the Jewish Europeans who suddenly came out of nowhere en masse and were Jewish and spoke different languages and came from a different culture .
In fact, one can make the argument that Israel can’t exist without war as the founders of Zion even said in order to create a diverse Israel with all of her peoples from various nations an Arab or Muslim enemy would be needed to unite the nation
Jews were never Europeans. Stop it.
You stop it. If my grandparents speak Russian or Yiddish, I’m European .
I may not be Christian but I’m still European in culture, language, dress, and custom.
Ashkenazis and Mizrahis were alien to each other and in some ways still are.
My grandparents came from Belarus. They most certainly were not considered European, or Russian. Not by Russians and not by themselves. They were not European in culture, language, dress and custom. Like not even a little bit. When they arrived in America, their passports were stamped "Hebrew".
Just ask any European if Jews are European. They aren't now, and they certainly weren't then.
That post I quoted was referring to how Jewish Europeans were perceived in Israel upon first arrival.
Yeah among Nordic or blonde East Europeans -Jews stick out as ethnic, curly haired, as non European and not white but to the Palestinians and Mizrahi Jews in that area, they definitely would see an Eastern European as “white”.
It’s all relative. Some Africans wouldn’t see African Americans as fully “black or African” even though in the US, that isn’t the case
Race is a very subjective thing and sometimes our race can change depending on where we are in the world. Like Palestinians are considered white in America . They aren’t white in Israel.
An Eastern European Jewish man would be the “white man” in Israel even if he is not a white man in Belarus or Russia
The people who are piecing together the evidence of what happened in the Hamas attack are releasing some of the details about what they found and the stories are horrific. They talked about finding evidence that Hamas tortured parents in front of their children, by doing things like gouging their eyes out. My God.
Anonymous wrote:All because of the Big Lie. This is what happens when terrorists declare a Day of Unparalleled Anger.
This is what happens when you let terrorists walk across your border and you respond by targeting refugees convoys and hospitals. Wait till the ground war starts. That will break Egypt neutral support for Israel. You think this is not going to be a sh#t show all through the ME. There will be a total realignment, minimum a few assassinations of heads of state(Saudi and Egypt) and it will not favor Israel.
Now let’s talk about those leftist democrats, BLM and students who support Palestinians. Oh they are so evil and the cause of all these problems for Israel! If only we can silence those people everything will be fine.
Tunisia is a mess. Has been for a long while. I am sorry for the loss of the Torah, but these days of rage are mostly ridiculous spectacle.
The way American Jews feel about Israelis being slaughtered by Hamas is exactly how Muslims around the world feel about Palestinians being slaughtered by Israel.
You don’t understand their pain? It’s the same pain a Jewish person is feeling right now
They feel so badly that they won't help save the civilians still there. Give me a break
Save them how? Egypt tried and IDF bombed the Rafah crossing. America says sorry peeps, we can’t save tax paying American citizens in Gaza but we can send a ship and planes to Israel to ship American citizens out ASAP.
Do you think Tunisia wants to war with Israel so they can bomb Tunisian hospitals and children too?
People have been waiting at the Rafa border for days. Egypt could open it if they wanted to.
If they do, Israel would bomb the crossing again then go a bit further and accidentally bomb a nearby target in Egypt saying it was to bomb Hamas bunkers. The Egyptians know this.
Who knows? If this shitshow keeps continuing , I see worse escalation to continue and with the American presidents comments, he just endangered all our ambassadors in the Middle East with one single comment. Poor Anthony Blinken looked mortified
Egypt and Jordan said straight out they will not take in Palestinians. Did you not know about that, or do you just want to speculate about what Israel would do, like you are deciding on which move to make in a video game?
Funny you say video game as Israel has produced video games about IDF soldiers where one can kill Palestinians for fun. One is called Bomb Gaza, another was called Code Red:Gaza Assault, and another is called Iron Dome Missile Defense.
Okay. And in Palestine, kindergarten graduations involve putting on skits about kidnapping and murdering Jews.
Cool. You all are terrible people, on both sides. Maybe we should let yall just work it out as you see fit. And not foot the bill.
The Islamophobia and anti-Arab sentiment are so intense on the pro-Israel side. It's really mind-blowing how much hate and racism they get away with while simultaneously accusing all of their detractors of "antisemitism". In a few hundred years, I'm sure the history books will have named this psychosis/era - whatever you call it - but to live it is something else.
Yah. The pro Israel rallies are really frightening with their Palestinian flag burning and chanting death to Palestinians. Not.
I take it you've never seen a settler rally in Israel? They don't chant Death to Palestinians because they deny the very existence of Palestinians. Instead they chant Death to Arabs. Two members of Bibi's cabinet have done it regularly and are quite open with their feelings. There's probably one happening in the West Bank right now.
By the way, those two cabinet members? One is in charge of the Israeli Police while the other is in charge of disbursing government funds.
Are Palestinians not Arabs?
One of the pro-Israel talking points is that there is no “Palestinian” identity, they are just “Arabs” and should therefore go live in some other Arab country. This is an incredibly bigoted hot take.
All of these little countries like Jordan, Lebanon, etc., have their own identity, the people who were forcibly expelled from the land can trace their ancestry there, they are indigenous to the land and people can deny that until they are blue in the face.
It’s not though. The notion of a Palestinian Muslim identity is not an ethnic idea. It’s nationalism and it’s relatively new:
Emergence of a distinct identity
The timing and causes behind the emergence of a distinctively Palestinian national consciousness among the Arabs of Palestine are matters of scholarly disagreement. Some argue that it can be traced as far back as the peasants' revolt in Palestine in 1834 (or even as early as the 17th century), while others argue that it did not emerge until after the Mandatory Palestine period.[59][112] Legal historian Assaf Likhovski states that the prevailing view is that Palestinian identity originated in the early decades of the 20th century,[59] when an embryonic desire among Palestinians for self-government in the face of generalized fears that Zionism would lead to a Jewish state and the dispossession of the Arab majority crystallised among most editors, Christian and Muslim, of local newspapers.[113] The term itself Filasṭīnī was first introduced by Khalīl Beidas in a translation of a Russian work on the Holy Land into Arabic in 1898. After that, its usage gradually spread so that, by 1908, with the loosening of censorship controls under late Ottoman rule, a number of Muslim, Christian and Jewish correspondents writing for newspapers began to use the term with great frequency in referring to the 'Palestinian people'(ahl/ahālī Filasṭīn), 'Palestinians' (al-Filasṭīnīyūn) the 'sons of Palestine(abnā’ Filasṭīn) or to 'Palestinian society',(al-mujtama' al-filasṭīnī).[114]
In Arab countries people primarily tie themselves to their village of origin. My own family can trace our records in our home village at least 500 years, or double the existence of the United States. While a national identity may be relatively new throughout the entire Middle East, this doesn’t mean that people don’t have a clear sense of homeland and place.
But it’s simply fact that the area wasn’t Muslim in any significant numbers until the 1500s.
This idea that Palestinian Arabs existed as some distinct identity for 2,000 years in what is now Israel is completely ahistoric.
This is like denying that Egypt wasn’t a country before Islam. People in the Arab world converted to Islam as it spread. So the Palestinian Muslim’s ancestors may indeed have been in the region for 2,000 years.
Arabs have been in the region. No one disputes that.
But Palestinians as a distinct people did not exist as a concept until much, much later.
I’m really not following your argument. A group of people who are not Jewish have lived in that region for thousands of years. They now call themselves Palestinians. Their religion before 1500 or their understanding of nation-states does not matter. As indigenous people they have ties to the land and it is their homeland as much as anyone else.
Wrong.
If we’re talking literally about what is now Israel, the land was:
1. Jewish
2. Then Roman
3. Then Christian
4. Muslims came in around the 1500s
5. Brits took it over and made it Mandatory Palestine, which had 500,000 Jews and 1 million Muslims
We’re focusing here specifically on the land in question, not the Middle East in general.
This is a totally absurd argument. Land does not have a religion. The people on the land have a religion. If the “land” was Jewish, Roman, whatever, it doesn’t matter. The humans who live on the land have a claim- the Palestinians. If they change their religion or become colonized- they still have a claim on the land.
Then at least be honest and say they aren’t an ethnicity distinct from anyone else. Just say they lived there.
They dont just live there, they are FROM there. That's the point
No. Arabs are not from what is now Palestine.
I don't know who this Palestinian denier is but she clearly knows ZERO actual Arabs in real life. The numbers for Jews in Palestine at the 19th/20th century are incredibly off. Muslims accounted for over 85% of the population in 1880. They began immigrating from Europe in the 1900s and increased numbers dramatically during that time.
The erasure of Palestinians should not be tolerated. It's bad enough that Israelis have kicked them off their land now they usurp culture and deny their existence.
*Jews began immigrating from Europe. That's why numbers started increasing. They doubled their numbers by the 1920s after the mass emigration movements.
Yet Muslims were massacring Jews en masse ? Do you think Jews in a migrant and anti semitic humanitarian crisis in Europe would even settle there if it weren’t safe?
Some Jews even left America to go to Mandatory Palestine because it was more safe there than here with anti Semitism
You miss the point entirely. You can claim all you want that Jews have a claim to the land for 2000 years. Ok. Whatever. We'll assume that there's no statue of limitations and my 2% Ghanian DNA means I can go take back Ghana.
Palestinians living on the land in the 1920s - 1940s (and now), did not care that this group of immigrants had ancestors that once occupied the area over 2000 years ago. All they saw - rightly - were boatloads of immigrants from W and Eastern Europe who were displacing them from their homes. Same in 47 and 48. They arrived as Europeans. you can argue the DNA all you like but they arrived on boats en masse from a different continent with an entirely different culture to the region.
Sure, the land was sold fair and square. We can blame the British. But please stop this line re: Jewish migrants from Europe somehow belonging to the land over the people that had been sitting there for generations.
I agree with you. I wasn’t countering your point. It’s like the Americans disturbed by the migrants suddenly coming to New York on buses and being accommodated in hotels . As Trump says , an “invasion” and many Americans believe him. Palestinian Jews were also disturbed by the Jewish Europeans who suddenly came out of nowhere en masse and were Jewish and spoke different languages and came from a different culture .
In fact, one can make the argument that Israel can’t exist without war as the founders of Zion even said in order to create a diverse Israel with all of her peoples from various nations an Arab or Muslim enemy would be needed to unite the nation
Jews were never Europeans. Stop it.
You stop it. If my grandparents speak Russian or Yiddish, I’m European .
I may not be Christian but I’m still European in culture, language, dress, and custom.
Ashkenazis and Mizrahis were alien to each other and in some ways still are.
My grandparents came from Belarus. They most certainly were not considered European, or Russian. Not by Russians and not by themselves. They were not European in culture, language, dress and custom. Like not even a little bit. When they arrived in America, their passports were stamped "Hebrew".
Just ask any European if Jews are European. They aren't now, and they certainly weren't then.
That post I quoted was referring to how Jewish Europeans were perceived in Israel upon first arrival.
Yeah among Nordic or blonde East Europeans -Jews stick out as ethnic, curly haired, as non European and not white but to the Palestinians and Mizrahi Jews in that area, they definitely would see an Eastern European as “white”.
It’s all relative. Some Africans wouldn’t see African Americans as fully “black or African” even though in the US, that isn’t the case
Race is a very subjective thing and sometimes our race can change depending on where we are in the world. Like Palestinians are considered white in America . They aren’t white in Israel.
An Eastern European Jewish man would be the “white man” in Israel even if he is not a white man in Belarus or Russia
Yeahhh, no that's not how race works outside America.
I mean, this is just nuts. Now the military head of the Rafah Popular Resistance Committees has been “eliminated.” It seems like Israel is in a mad rush … why?
Anonymous wrote:All because of the Big Lie. This is what happens when terrorists declare a Day of Unparalleled Anger.
This is what happens when you let terrorists walk across your border and you respond by targeting refugees convoys and hospitals. Wait till the ground war starts. That will break Egypt neutral support for Israel. You think this is not going to be a sh#t show all through the ME. There will be a total realignment, minimum a few assassinations of heads of state(Saudi and Egypt) and it will not favor Israel.
Now let’s talk about those leftist democrats, BLM and students who support Palestinians. Oh they are so evil and the cause of all these problems for Israel! If only we can silence those people everything will be fine.
Tunisia is a mess. Has been for a long while. I am sorry for the loss of the Torah, but these days of rage are mostly ridiculous spectacle.
The way American Jews feel about Israelis being slaughtered by Hamas is exactly how Muslims around the world feel about Palestinians being slaughtered by Israel.
You don’t understand their pain? It’s the same pain a Jewish person is feeling right now
They feel so badly that they won't help save the civilians still there. Give me a break
Save them how? Egypt tried and IDF bombed the Rafah crossing. America says sorry peeps, we can’t save tax paying American citizens in Gaza but we can send a ship and planes to Israel to ship American citizens out ASAP.
Do you think Tunisia wants to war with Israel so they can bomb Tunisian hospitals and children too?
People have been waiting at the Rafa border for days. Egypt could open it if they wanted to.
If they do, Israel would bomb the crossing again then go a bit further and accidentally bomb a nearby target in Egypt saying it was to bomb Hamas bunkers. The Egyptians know this.
Who knows? If this shitshow keeps continuing , I see worse escalation to continue and with the American presidents comments, he just endangered all our ambassadors in the Middle East with one single comment. Poor Anthony Blinken looked mortified
Egypt and Jordan said straight out they will not take in Palestinians. Did you not know about that, or do you just want to speculate about what Israel would do, like you are deciding on which move to make in a video game?
Funny you say video game as Israel has produced video games about IDF soldiers where one can kill Palestinians for fun. One is called Bomb Gaza, another was called Code Red:Gaza Assault, and another is called Iron Dome Missile Defense.
Okay. And in Palestine, kindergarten graduations involve putting on skits about kidnapping and murdering Jews.
Cool. You all are terrible people, on both sides. Maybe we should let yall just work it out as you see fit. And not foot the bill.
The Islamophobia and anti-Arab sentiment are so intense on the pro-Israel side. It's really mind-blowing how much hate and racism they get away with while simultaneously accusing all of their detractors of "antisemitism". In a few hundred years, I'm sure the history books will have named this psychosis/era - whatever you call it - but to live it is something else.
Yah. The pro Israel rallies are really frightening with their Palestinian flag burning and chanting death to Palestinians. Not.
I take it you've never seen a settler rally in Israel? They don't chant Death to Palestinians because they deny the very existence of Palestinians. Instead they chant Death to Arabs. Two members of Bibi's cabinet have done it regularly and are quite open with their feelings. There's probably one happening in the West Bank right now.
By the way, those two cabinet members? One is in charge of the Israeli Police while the other is in charge of disbursing government funds.
Are Palestinians not Arabs?
One of the pro-Israel talking points is that there is no “Palestinian” identity, they are just “Arabs” and should therefore go live in some other Arab country. This is an incredibly bigoted hot take.
All of these little countries like Jordan, Lebanon, etc., have their own identity, the people who were forcibly expelled from the land can trace their ancestry there, they are indigenous to the land and people can deny that until they are blue in the face.
It’s not though. The notion of a Palestinian Muslim identity is not an ethnic idea. It’s nationalism and it’s relatively new:
Emergence of a distinct identity
The timing and causes behind the emergence of a distinctively Palestinian national consciousness among the Arabs of Palestine are matters of scholarly disagreement. Some argue that it can be traced as far back as the peasants' revolt in Palestine in 1834 (or even as early as the 17th century), while others argue that it did not emerge until after the Mandatory Palestine period.[59][112] Legal historian Assaf Likhovski states that the prevailing view is that Palestinian identity originated in the early decades of the 20th century,[59] when an embryonic desire among Palestinians for self-government in the face of generalized fears that Zionism would lead to a Jewish state and the dispossession of the Arab majority crystallised among most editors, Christian and Muslim, of local newspapers.[113] The term itself Filasṭīnī was first introduced by Khalīl Beidas in a translation of a Russian work on the Holy Land into Arabic in 1898. After that, its usage gradually spread so that, by 1908, with the loosening of censorship controls under late Ottoman rule, a number of Muslim, Christian and Jewish correspondents writing for newspapers began to use the term with great frequency in referring to the 'Palestinian people'(ahl/ahālī Filasṭīn), 'Palestinians' (al-Filasṭīnīyūn) the 'sons of Palestine(abnā’ Filasṭīn) or to 'Palestinian society',(al-mujtama' al-filasṭīnī).[114]
In Arab countries people primarily tie themselves to their village of origin. My own family can trace our records in our home village at least 500 years, or double the existence of the United States. While a national identity may be relatively new throughout the entire Middle East, this doesn’t mean that people don’t have a clear sense of homeland and place.
But it’s simply fact that the area wasn’t Muslim in any significant numbers until the 1500s.
This idea that Palestinian Arabs existed as some distinct identity for 2,000 years in what is now Israel is completely ahistoric.
This is like denying that Egypt wasn’t a country before Islam. People in the Arab world converted to Islam as it spread. So the Palestinian Muslim’s ancestors may indeed have been in the region for 2,000 years.
Arabs have been in the region. No one disputes that.
But Palestinians as a distinct people did not exist as a concept until much, much later.
I’m really not following your argument. A group of people who are not Jewish have lived in that region for thousands of years. They now call themselves Palestinians. Their religion before 1500 or their understanding of nation-states does not matter. As indigenous people they have ties to the land and it is their homeland as much as anyone else.
Wrong.
If we’re talking literally about what is now Israel, the land was:
1. Jewish
2. Then Roman
3. Then Christian
4. Muslims came in around the 1500s
5. Brits took it over and made it Mandatory Palestine, which had 500,000 Jews and 1 million Muslims
We’re focusing here specifically on the land in question, not the Middle East in general.
This is a totally absurd argument. Land does not have a religion. The people on the land have a religion. If the “land” was Jewish, Roman, whatever, it doesn’t matter. The humans who live on the land have a claim- the Palestinians. If they change their religion or become colonized- they still have a claim on the land.
Then at least be honest and say they aren’t an ethnicity distinct from anyone else. Just say they lived there.
They dont just live there, they are FROM there. That's the point
No. Arabs are not from what is now Palestine.
I don't know who this Palestinian denier is but she clearly knows ZERO actual Arabs in real life. The numbers for Jews in Palestine at the 19th/20th century are incredibly off. Muslims accounted for over 85% of the population in 1880. They began immigrating from Europe in the 1900s and increased numbers dramatically during that time.
The erasure of Palestinians should not be tolerated. It's bad enough that Israelis have kicked them off their land now they usurp culture and deny their existence.
*Jews began immigrating from Europe. That's why numbers started increasing. They doubled their numbers by the 1920s after the mass emigration movements.
Yet Muslims were massacring Jews en masse ? Do you think Jews in a migrant and anti semitic humanitarian crisis in Europe would even settle there if it weren’t safe?
Some Jews even left America to go to Mandatory Palestine because it was more safe there than here with anti Semitism
You miss the point entirely. You can claim all you want that Jews have a claim to the land for 2000 years. Ok. Whatever. We'll assume that there's no statue of limitations and my 2% Ghanian DNA means I can go take back Ghana.
Palestinians living on the land in the 1920s - 1940s (and now), did not care that this group of immigrants had ancestors that once occupied the area over 2000 years ago. All they saw - rightly - were boatloads of immigrants from W and Eastern Europe who were displacing them from their homes. Same in 47 and 48. They arrived as Europeans. you can argue the DNA all you like but they arrived on boats en masse from a different continent with an entirely different culture to the region.
Sure, the land was sold fair and square. We can blame the British. But please stop this line re: Jewish migrants from Europe somehow belonging to the land over the people that had been sitting there for generations.
I agree with you. I wasn’t countering your point. It’s like the Americans disturbed by the migrants suddenly coming to New York on buses and being accommodated in hotels . As Trump says , an “invasion” and many Americans believe him. Palestinian Jews were also disturbed by the Jewish Europeans who suddenly came out of nowhere en masse and were Jewish and spoke different languages and came from a different culture .
In fact, one can make the argument that Israel can’t exist without war as the founders of Zion even said in order to create a diverse Israel with all of her peoples from various nations an Arab or Muslim enemy would be needed to unite the nation
Jews were never Europeans. Stop it.
You stop it. If my grandparents speak Russian or Yiddish, I’m European .
I may not be Christian but I’m still European in culture, language, dress, and custom.
Ashkenazis and Mizrahis were alien to each other and in some ways still are.
This is not a thing. Jews consider themselves Jews. Not anything else. If you move from the US to India and learn the language and culture etc. do you ethnically become Indian? No, you don't.
Anonymous wrote:I mean, this is just nuts. Now the military head of the Rafah Popular Resistance Committees has been “eliminated.” It seems like Israel is in a mad rush … why?
Are you seriously asking? Do you understand what happened on Oct. 7th?
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