Wizards and Caps could be moving to Potomac Yard

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I heard Mayor Wilson speak last night, and he said part of the agreement was to seriously limit parking (<4k spaces total), and likely zone all streets for quite a distance to be residential only. Not saying I trust the mayor, but as a nearby resident, that is the only thing that could get me on board. No one wants your giant 3-row SUV clogging up traffic and parking.

That's what's being reported

https://www.alxnow.com/2023/12/14/alexandria-mayor-potomac-yard-arena-will-have-minimal-parking-but-metro-station-currently-inadequate/

If that's true, then this whole thing is just postering to get DC to pony up or it's doomed to be a massive white elephant that will bankrupt Alexandria. This arena only works if it can attract Virginians in large enough numbers to offset the loss of Maryland and DC fans, but that's not going to happen if you expect them to take metro. All of the financing numbers are based on taxes from the Arena and new developments paying off the bonds, but if attendance is essentially nothing thanks to a lack of parking, that won't happen and Alexandria will be stuck making up the shortfall

4K spaces should be plenty, people with 3 row SUVs are certainly hauling 5 or more people right? If not, time to bring slugging back!

What about the “30k new jobs”?

They can park in one of these:

Joking aside, there are a lot of things from this video they could do to make PY work. Tunneled roads, ferries, connecting to the MVT, and such could alleviate a lot of the surface traffic worries. But it wouldn't be cheap.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

lol. never thought I’d see the day but indeed. Nimby power, activate!

What’s more interesting is to see the YIMBYs against this. I would be careful making this a standard YIMBY/NIMBY issue.

But it is kind of amazing to watch the ALX YIMBYs get frazzled when it happens in THEIR backyard.

Having a few more neighbors is different than thousands of new people clogging up your streets and parking spaces.

Yes, I get that. It’s amazing how your views change when a proposal impacts your home and neighborhood.

If it’s not your BY then YIMBY/NIMBY is irrelevant.

Nope, not true. YIMBYs frequently tell NIMBYs that they have no say over what happens in their backyard.

Also YIMBY means yes in my backyard. Meaning you are a YES for it happening in your backyard.

They are a yes for it happening in their own backyard.

Except they are not in this case. I watched several fairly prolific or self-professed YIMBYs either express skepticism or outright objections to this proposal.

In other words, they were YIMBYs until it happened in their backyard. And the defense is that this isn’t something they signed up for - except isn’t that always the case with NIMBYs?

So my broader point is that it’s easy to be a YIMBY when the proposal does not impact you. Most people are actually NIMBYs under the right circumstances.

You can be a YIMBY to denser housing, mixed use development, more transit options, the new Virginia Tech campus….but still oppose an arena that’s going to bring in a massive amount of traffic on roads that are already too small for today.

YIMBYs don’t have to say “Yes” to every horrible idea.

Listen, our parking and roads are for everyone, per the city. Parking and traffic congestion on smaller roads are not an objection, as we learned during the zoning debate.

Also this proposal is theoretically likely to spurn denser housing (and maybe more contributions to our affordable housing fund), result in $200M for transit, and higher quality mixed use development.

You’re equating adding a few new neighbors with THOUSANDS of workers and spectators?

No, I am equating thousands of worker and spectators with thousands of neighbors. Were you not paying attention to the plans for PY?

Look, I am a NIMBY myself. I was against ZFH (or at least the SFH component) and I am against the arena. I am just sick and tired of hearing what terrible, racist people we are even though I am liberal Dem. So I am somewhat bemused to see so many YIMBYs get bent out of shape when it happens in their backyard. Maybe we can stop the name calling and acknowledge we all have our own personal breaking points.

This is the best part of the arena! I’ve been on the wrong side of the YIMBY position so many times living on the west end. Love to see them finally showing their YIYBY cards.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

lol. never thought I’d see the day but indeed. Nimby power, activate!

What’s more interesting is to see the YIMBYs against this. I would be careful making this a standard YIMBY/NIMBY issue.

But it is kind of amazing to watch the ALX YIMBYs get frazzled when it happens in THEIR backyard.

Having a few more neighbors is different than thousands of new people clogging up your streets and parking spaces.

Yes, I get that. It’s amazing how your views change when a proposal impacts your home and neighborhood.

If it’s not your BY then YIMBY/NIMBY is irrelevant.

Nope, not true. YIMBYs frequently tell NIMBYs that they have no say over what happens in their backyard.

Also YIMBY means yes in my backyard. Meaning you are a YES for it happening in your backyard.

They are a yes for it happening in their own backyard.

Except they are not in this case. I watched several fairly prolific or self-professed YIMBYs either express skepticism or outright objections to this proposal.

In other words, they were YIMBYs until it happened in their backyard. And the defense is that this isn’t something they signed up for - except isn’t that always the case with NIMBYs?

So my broader point is that it’s easy to be a YIMBY when the proposal does not impact you. Most people are actually NIMBYs under the right circumstances.

You can be a YIMBY to denser housing, mixed use development, more transit options, the new Virginia Tech campus….but still oppose an arena that’s going to bring in a massive amount of traffic on roads that are already too small for today.

YIMBYs don’t have to say “Yes” to every horrible idea.

Listen, our parking and roads are for everyone, per the city. Parking and traffic congestion on smaller roads are not an objection, as we learned during the zoning debate.

Also this proposal is theoretically likely to spurn denser housing (and maybe more contributions to our affordable housing fund), result in $200M for transit, and higher quality mixed use development.

You’re equating adding a few new neighbors with THOUSANDS of workers and spectators?

No, I am equating thousands of worker and spectators with thousands of neighbors. Were you not paying attention to the plans for PY?

Look, I am a NIMBY myself. I was against ZFH (or at least the SFH component) and I am against the arena. I am just sick and tired of hearing what terrible, racist people we are even though I am liberal Dem. So I am somewhat bemused to see so many YIMBYs get bent out of shape when it happens in their backyard. Maybe we can stop the name calling and acknowledge we all have our own personal breaking points.

This is the best part of the arena! I’ve been on the wrong side of the YIMBY position so many times living on the west end. Love to see them finally showing their YIYBY cards.

Because they are not YIMBYs. They, like most YIMBYs are really YIYBYs -- "Yes, in your backyard."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I live in Fairfax and have partial season tix to the Caps and Wiz and like that I can pay $15 to park ~ a block away and then be home in 35/40 minutes post game. Neither of those things are going to happen in PY so I will give up my tix and maybe go to a couple of games a year, well planned and on a weekend afternoon.

From the arena, you can take the bus rapid transit to car parks in Crystal City, Pentagon City, or Old Town.

Again, that is adding at least a half hour each way on a commute to the games as compared to Gallery Place. for most fans, it won't be worth the time. For many fans, it won't even be a viable option. I hope Ted assumes that everyone who lives in "Potomac Landing" and Del ray will be season ticket holders, because the existing fan bases won't put up with the additional hassle.

I live in upper NW and would gladly spend an extra 30 minutes in traffic rather than subject my family to what Chinatown has become.

Same. Last weekend day game I took my kids too there was a knife fight between vagrants, people sitting on the sidewalk shooting up and a pool of blood on the sidewalk. Nope, not family friendly in the slightest.

Racist.

No one mentioned race but facts are facts. One demographic is the overwhelming majority of crime in DC. At some point, this experiment of progressive policing needs to end. Stop worrying about criminals feelings. Arrest the parents of the minors and charge the minors as adults.

The only way DC will thrive is to lay the hammer down very swiftly and strongly.

You've got my vote!

Mine, too! Rebuild the Police.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

lol. never thought I’d see the day but indeed. Nimby power, activate!

What’s more interesting is to see the YIMBYs against this. I would be careful making this a standard YIMBY/NIMBY issue.

But it is kind of amazing to watch the ALX YIMBYs get frazzled when it happens in THEIR backyard.

Having a few more neighbors is different than thousands of new people clogging up your streets and parking spaces.

Yes, I get that. It’s amazing how your views change when a proposal impacts your home and neighborhood.

If it’s not your BY then YIMBY/NIMBY is irrelevant.

Nope, not true. YIMBYs frequently tell NIMBYs that they have no say over what happens in their backyard.

Also YIMBY means yes in my backyard. Meaning you are a YES for it happening in your backyard.

They are a yes for it happening in their own backyard.

Except they are not in this case. I watched several fairly prolific or self-professed YIMBYs either express skepticism or outright objections to this proposal.

In other words, they were YIMBYs until it happened in their backyard. And the defense is that this isn’t something they signed up for - except isn’t that always the case with NIMBYs?

So my broader point is that it’s easy to be a YIMBY when the proposal does not impact you. Most people are actually NIMBYs under the right circumstances.

Then they were misnamed YIMBY if they were pushing proposals that don’t affect them.

People can be ok with some changes that affect them but not other changes.

YIMBYs are always pushing proposals that do not affect them. It’s why they coalesce and show up to speak at hearings in neighboring jurisdictions. It’s why they employ regional or national letter writing campaigns to drum up the perception of support for local issues.

Or when they hire Trumpy lobbyists to call communities "racist" for questioning big development.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As to Metro coverage, if one or two stops on the green line is sufficient for Nats Park and Audi Field, why do people believe that PY would be insufficient to handle crowds. I have not traversed the pedestrian bridge and that is one obvious choke point. Are there others?

As to PY, I recall the National Park Sevice being very protective of the views from the GW Parkway to the point that, from WMATA's view, the station placement is suboptimal. From what I've seen, the proposed stadium would be even more triggering of NPS's design veto. Is my recollection correct here? If so, has there been any questionin of/reaction from NPS?

Nats park is on the grid, so people can go via the bridge, S Cap to the highway or east on M Street or west on M Street to Rock Creek.
People can also bikeshare to other metro lines, and do.

Potomac Yards doesn't have easy access to other metro lines or other roads.

See the problem?

I don’t care about whether they move or not BUT things can change/improve just as they did around the old phone booth and Nats park. They’ll have to deal with the transportation issues that they are creating. I hated moving outside the beltway (I’m a city girl) but this kind of crap makes me less sad about our decision to move out here. Sorry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:youngkin is going to have to pony up for Metro to even keep the PY station opened, much less allow for the kind of service necessary to make the arena remotely viable

Or he could tell metro he'll contribute even less if they close the station.

We just saw upthread that the proposal is to limit access to 4,000 cars. Good luck getting 20,000 people and all of the concession workers into the arena without metro.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I heard Mayor Wilson speak last night, and he said part of the agreement was to seriously limit parking (<4k spaces total), and likely zone all streets for quite a distance to be residential only. Not saying I trust the mayor, but as a nearby resident, that is the only thing that could get me on board. No one wants your giant 3-row SUV clogging up traffic and parking.

That's what's being reported

https://www.alxnow.com/2023/12/14/alexandria-mayor-potomac-yard-arena-will-have-minimal-parking-but-metro-station-currently-inadequate/

If that's true, then this whole thing is just postering to get DC to pony up or it's doomed to be a massive white elephant that will bankrupt Alexandria. This arena only works if it can attract Virginians in large enough numbers to offset the loss of Maryland and DC fans, but that's not going to happen if you expect them to take metro. All of the financing numbers are based on taxes from the Arena and new developments paying off the bonds, but if attendance is essentially nothing thanks to a lack of parking, that won't happen and Alexandria will be stuck making up the shortfall

4K spaces should be plenty, people with 3 row SUVs are certainly hauling 5 or more people right? If not, time to bring slugging back!

What about the “30k new jobs”?

They can park in one of these:

Joking aside, there are a lot of things from this video they could do to make PY work. Tunneled roads, ferries, connecting to the MVT, and such could alleviate a lot of the surface traffic worries. But it wouldn't be cheap.

Ferry? Uh, ya, how will people get from the water to the arena?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:youngkin is going to have to pony up for Metro to even keep the PY station opened, much less allow for the kind of service necessary to make the arena remotely viable

Or he could tell metro he'll contribute even less if they close the station.

We just saw upthread that the proposal is to limit access to 4,000 cars. Good luck getting 20,000 people and all of the concession workers into the arena without metro.

I think on the call last night, Wilson said 3200 spaces. Whatever the number is, it would be less than the combined total of the current spaces in the strip mall added to the (past) movie theater spaces. Thus the "net loss."

Someone on Alxnow said this could be a fantastic opportunity for Alexandria to benefit from tow-sharks preying on those parking illegally. That would be a good revenue source!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

lol. never thought I’d see the day but indeed. Nimby power, activate!

What’s more interesting is to see the YIMBYs against this. I would be careful making this a standard YIMBY/NIMBY issue.

But it is kind of amazing to watch the ALX YIMBYs get frazzled when it happens in THEIR backyard.

Having a few more neighbors is different than thousands of new people clogging up your streets and parking spaces.

Yes, I get that. It’s amazing how your views change when a proposal impacts your home and neighborhood.

If it’s not your BY then YIMBY/NIMBY is irrelevant.

Nope, not true. YIMBYs frequently tell NIMBYs that they have no say over what happens in their backyard.

Also YIMBY means yes in my backyard. Meaning you are a YES for it happening in your backyard.

They are a yes for it happening in their own backyard.

Except they are not in this case. I watched several fairly prolific or self-professed YIMBYs either express skepticism or outright objections to this proposal.

In other words, they were YIMBYs until it happened in their backyard. And the defense is that this isn’t something they signed up for - except isn’t that always the case with NIMBYs?

So my broader point is that it’s easy to be a YIMBY when the proposal does not impact you. Most people are actually NIMBYs under the right circumstances.

Then they were misnamed YIMBY if they were pushing proposals that don’t affect them.

People can be ok with some changes that affect them but not other changes.

YIMBYs are always pushing proposals that do not affect them. It’s why they coalesce and show up to speak at hearings in neighboring jurisdictions. It’s why they employ regional or national letter writing campaigns to drum up the perception of support for local issues.

Those aren’t “YIMBYs”. They’re just people who disagree with you.

I’m a YIMBY on zoning changes - those absolutely would affect me. I’m NIMBY on the sports complex.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As to Metro coverage, if one or two stops on the green line is sufficient for Nats Park and Audi Field, why do people believe that PY would be insufficient to handle crowds. I have not traversed the pedestrian bridge and that is one obvious choke point. Are there others?

As to PY, I recall the National Park Sevice being very protective of the views from the GW Parkway to the point that, from WMATA's view, the station placement is suboptimal. From what I've seen, the proposed stadium would be even more triggering of NPS's design veto. Is my recollection correct here? If so, has there been any questionin of/reaction from NPS?

Nats park is on the grid, so people can go via the bridge, S Cap to the highway or east on M Street or west on M Street to Rock Creek.
People can also bikeshare to other metro lines, and do.

Potomac Yards doesn't have easy access to other metro lines or other roads.

See the problem?

I don’t care about whether they move or not BUT things can change/improve just as they did around the old phone booth and Nats park. They’ll have to deal with the transportation issues that they are creating. I hated moving outside the beltway (I’m a city girl) but this kind of crap makes me less sad about our decision to move out here. Sorry.

There is a preexisting transportation problem. And limited options because of the physical boundaries.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:youngkin is going to have to pony up for Metro to even keep the PY station opened, much less allow for the kind of service necessary to make the arena remotely viable

Or he could tell metro he'll contribute even less if they close the station.

We just saw upthread that the proposal is to limit access to 4,000 cars. Good luck getting 20,000 people and all of the concession workers into the arena without metro.

I think on the call last night, Wilson said 3200 spaces. Whatever the number is, it would be less than the combined total of the current spaces in the strip mall added to the (past) movie theater spaces. Thus the "net loss."

Someone on Alxnow said this could be a fantastic opportunity for Alexandria to benefit from tow-sharks preying on those parking illegally. That would be a good revenue source!

I could have sworn on the call Wilson said there were 3700 parking spots currently, but that the development would only have 2500 spots, so significant reduction.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:youngkin is going to have to pony up for Metro to even keep the PY station opened, much less allow for the kind of service necessary to make the arena remotely viable

Or he could tell metro he'll contribute even less if they close the station.

We just saw upthread that the proposal is to limit access to 4,000 cars. Good luck getting 20,000 people and all of the concession workers into the arena without metro.

I think on the call last night, Wilson said 3200 spaces. Whatever the number is, it would be less than the combined total of the current spaces in the strip mall added to the (past) movie theater spaces. Thus the "net loss."

Someone on Alxnow said this could be a fantastic opportunity for Alexandria to benefit from tow-sharks preying on those parking illegally. That would be a good revenue source!

It seems like a great way to ensure that local business die.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

lol. never thought I’d see the day but indeed. Nimby power, activate!

What’s more interesting is to see the YIMBYs against this. I would be careful making this a standard YIMBY/NIMBY issue.

But it is kind of amazing to watch the ALX YIMBYs get frazzled when it happens in THEIR backyard.

Having a few more neighbors is different than thousands of new people clogging up your streets and parking spaces.

Yes, I get that. It’s amazing how your views change when a proposal impacts your home and neighborhood.

If it’s not your BY then YIMBY/NIMBY is irrelevant.

Nope, not true. YIMBYs frequently tell NIMBYs that they have no say over what happens in their backyard.

Also YIMBY means yes in my backyard. Meaning you are a YES for it happening in your backyard.

They are a yes for it happening in their own backyard.

Except they are not in this case. I watched several fairly prolific or self-professed YIMBYs either express skepticism or outright objections to this proposal.

In other words, they were YIMBYs until it happened in their backyard. And the defense is that this isn’t something they signed up for - except isn’t that always the case with NIMBYs?

So my broader point is that it’s easy to be a YIMBY when the proposal does not impact you. Most people are actually NIMBYs under the right circumstances.

You can be a YIMBY to denser housing, mixed use development, more transit options, the new Virginia Tech campus….but still oppose an arena that’s going to bring in a massive amount of traffic on roads that are already too small for today.

YIMBYs don’t have to say “Yes” to every horrible idea.

Listen, our parking and roads are for everyone, per the city. Parking and traffic congestion on smaller roads are not an objection, as we learned during the zoning debate.

Also this proposal is theoretically likely to spurn denser housing (and maybe more contributions to our affordable housing fund), result in $200M for transit, and higher quality mixed use development.

You’re equating adding a few new neighbors with THOUSANDS of workers and spectators?

No, I am equating thousands of worker and spectators with thousands of neighbors. Were you not paying attention to the plans for PY?

Look, I am a NIMBY myself. I was against ZFH (or at least the SFH component) and I am against the arena. I am just sick and tired of hearing what terrible, racist people we are even though I am liberal Dem. So I am somewhat bemused to see so many YIMBYs get bent out of shape when it happens in their backyard. Maybe we can stop the name calling and acknowledge we all have our own personal breaking points.

“Thousands” of neighbors?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:youngkin is going to have to pony up for Metro to even keep the PY station opened, much less allow for the kind of service necessary to make the arena remotely viable

Or he could tell metro he'll contribute even less if they close the station.

We just saw upthread that the proposal is to limit access to 4,000 cars. Good luck getting 20,000 people and all of the concession workers into the arena without metro.

So 50M for a 4K car garage? Do we believe that?