Immersion school parents

[Anonymous]

You can't get through to most of the charter immersion parents where fluency is concerned.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The same argument OP is making could literally be applied to any subject in school and boils down to opinions about what parental support of education looks like. As your child gets older, you will likely reach a point where you can't really help them with school subjects anymore. That threshold is different for everyone, of course. In most cases, it makes no sense for the parent to learn (or relearn) subjects to support their child. I'm not going to relearn pre-calculus to help my child--I'd rather he get help and support from someone who knows a lot more than me in that subject. Isn't the same true for languages? If I don't know how to speak a language but I want my kids to learn it, me learning the language is only going to go so far to help them--and in some cases might hinder them. But whether I learn how to sing a kid's song in that language--and will actually sing it in public--doesn't mean anything about my support for my child's language learning.

-A parent with kids in a language immersion school that has learned some of the language, including the birthday song, but has never spoken or sung the language in public

I don't have a problem with someone who doesn't speak a language enrolling their kid in language immersion, but disagree that language immersion is no different than a parent not wanting to learn "new math" for 4th graders or not learning enough physics to tutor their high school student. Language immersion IS different, especially when we're talking about immersion at the ECE level, which is when most of these schools are actually doing true immersion.

Ok, so how is it different? How is a parent who doesn’t speak the language going to help their child?

People have mentioned numerous ways in this thread: providing media in the target language, gaining enough familiarity to support their kid's immersion (not becoming fluent but making some effort to learn the basics so they can engage with their kid regarding the language), hiring sitters/nannies who speak the language, pursuing experiences in the target language (from travel to music classes and everything in between), etc.

A lot of parents with kids in early years immersion (and many with kids in later years immersion) do some or all of the above. Meanwhile, almost no one is doing this much to support their kid's in HS-level science or math classes. So yes, immersion is different.

lol, wait until you get to middle and upper elementary and see how far that gets you. Unless you can afford an au pair or summers abroad, it’s up to your kid whether they want to put in the extra effort to get past little kid fluency.

I mean, the comment was specifically about how supporting actual immersion in the early grades is different from supporting kids in other subjects in upper grades. There are no public school programs in DC that do true immersion past 1st or 2nd anyway -- by middle elementary their core subjects are in English. So we are mostly talking about how parents can support it at the ECE+ level.

However, I just want to note that you don't have to be able to afford an au pair or summers abroad to support lots of Spanish exposure in the US. A middle class family can afford trips to Central America or the Caribbean here and there, and there are TONS of opportunities for things like Spanish-language camps and groups. So at least with Spanish, it honestly would not be that hard for a committed family to continue to support in this way into upper elementary and middle school, assuming MC or UMC.

The privilege in this post is astounding. No, PP, not all middle class families can afford international travel “here and there,” let alone long enough and frequently enough for it to make a bit of difference.

And please name those tons of camps and groups in DC. There are plenty of Spanish exposure camps in DC, like Casa Lala, Salsa with Silvia, etc., but none of those camps are immersion and make your child speak in Spanish. And those camps are wildly expensive, and boring for older kids that have developed their own interests.

But please do share those camps and groups. If they’re so plentiful and accessible as you suggest, we’d love the recommendations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The same argument OP is making could literally be applied to any subject in school and boils down to opinions about what parental support of education looks like. As your child gets older, you will likely reach a point where you can't really help them with school subjects anymore. That threshold is different for everyone, of course. In most cases, it makes no sense for the parent to learn (or relearn) subjects to support their child. I'm not going to relearn pre-calculus to help my child--I'd rather he get help and support from someone who knows a lot more than me in that subject. Isn't the same true for languages? If I don't know how to speak a language but I want my kids to learn it, me learning the language is only going to go so far to help them--and in some cases might hinder them. But whether I learn how to sing a kid's song in that language--and will actually sing it in public--doesn't mean anything about my support for my child's language learning.

-A parent with kids in a language immersion school that has learned some of the language, including the birthday song, but has never spoken or sung the language in public

I don't have a problem with someone who doesn't speak a language enrolling their kid in language immersion, but disagree that language immersion is no different than a parent not wanting to learn "new math" for 4th graders or not learning enough physics to tutor their high school student. Language immersion IS different, especially when we're talking about immersion at the ECE level, which is when most of these schools are actually doing true immersion.

Ok, so how is it different? How is a parent who doesn’t speak the language going to help their child?

People have mentioned numerous ways in this thread: providing media in the target language, gaining enough familiarity to support their kid's immersion (not becoming fluent but making some effort to learn the basics so they can engage with their kid regarding the language), hiring sitters/nannies who speak the language, pursuing experiences in the target language (from travel to music classes and everything in between), etc.

A lot of parents with kids in early years immersion (and many with kids in later years immersion) do some or all of the above. Meanwhile, almost no one is doing this much to support their kid's in HS-level science or math classes. So yes, immersion is different.

lol, wait until you get to middle and upper elementary and see how far that gets you. Unless you can afford an au pair or summers abroad, it’s up to your kid whether they want to put in the extra effort to get past little kid fluency.

I mean, the comment was specifically about how supporting actual immersion in the early grades is different from supporting kids in other subjects in upper grades. There are no public school programs in DC that do true immersion past 1st or 2nd anyway -- by middle elementary their core subjects are in English. So we are mostly talking about how parents can support it at the ECE+ level.

However, I just want to note that you don't have to be able to afford an au pair or summers abroad to support lots of Spanish exposure in the US. A middle class family can afford trips to Central America or the Caribbean here and there, and there are TONS of opportunities for things like Spanish-language camps and groups. So at least with Spanish, it honestly would not be that hard for a committed family to continue to support in this way into upper elementary and middle school, assuming MC or UMC.

The privilege in this post is astounding. No, PP, not all middle class families can afford international travel “here and there,” let alone long enough and frequently enough for it to make a bit of difference.

And please name those tons of camps and groups in DC. There are plenty of Spanish exposure camps in DC, like Casa Lala, Salsa with Silvia, etc., but none of those camps are immersion and make your child speak in Spanish. And those camps are wildly expensive, and boring for older kids that have developed their own interests.

But please do share those camps and groups. If they’re so plentiful and accessible as you suggest, we’d love the recommendations.

Jesus, some of y'all are defensive.

If it's so hard to support immersion in DC, why do we have so much of it? Maybe we'd be better off with language exposure programs at the elementary level and investing a lot more into MS and HS language, which are pretty lacking in DC.

I think it's odd how many people chose immersion programs for their kids and then are so angrily defensive when people raise questions with whether it works, whether the kids are being properly supported in the program, etc.

[Anonymous]

Odd metric. My kids go a Spanish immersion school. I can certainly sing along with cumpleaños feliz but that's nearing the functional limit of my understanding. I have a much broader vocabulary in three other languages (French, Russian, Norwegian) but have no idea how to sing the equivalent of happy birthday in those languages.

As to the general point, obviously some households select an immersion program on a primary basis that differs from the language component.

I do believe that the best way parents can impart the importance of learning a second language is by being public about the parents' own attempt to do the same. Do Duolingo in front of your kid, even if just for show and even if its not the same as your kid's target language.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am having some struggles understanding the culture around the immersion school my kids go to.

It seems that so many families don't care and don't even try to speak the immersion language. I get that they may never speak it, but is it hard to at least try to seem interested?

At a recent 1st grader's birthday party, the parents didn't even know the happy birthday song in that language. After 4 years of their kid immersed in that language??

I just don't get it. Can anyone explain to me?

It seems such a waste to have kids in an immersion school if the parents aren't supporting/encouraging it

Rant over.

My child is learning one language at the immersion school. Meanwhile, I'm trying to learn another for my own profession. Furthermore, "support" comes in many different forms. We purchase books for our child in the target language. We encourage child to do a study abroad in 10th grade in a few years. We travel to countries that speak the target language. We label items around the house in the target language. After one semester, it was clear that our child knew far more of the target language than we could possibly learn. I hope that answers your question. Just know that "support" comes in many different forms, some of which are not on display at a birthday party.

[Anonymous]

Being an immersion parent in DC requires a lot of supplementing in early grades at minimum if the goal is bilingualism. If the goal is exposure, that’s a different set of expectations. There’s also a huge incentive for schools and polite neighbors to over-inflate your kid’s language abilities. Anyone who is telling you that your kid is native level or “on grade level” for their peers “in-country” has a bridge to sell you in Baltimore. Our kids have only every been spoken to in the target language at home and have been assessed by the school as being fluent or native level - and they simply have fewer hours of reading and writing practice and less instinctive grammar constructions than their cousins. Will they be bilingual adults - that’s the goal but it’s taken thousands of hours and dollars OUTSIDE school to make that happen. And we get our kids independently evaluated annually to control for the bias in testing since we hope they will go to college outside the U.S.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Being an immersion parent in DC requires a lot of supplementing in early grades at minimum if the goal is bilingualism. If the goal is exposure, that’s a different set of expectations. There’s also a huge incentive for schools and polite neighbors to over-inflate your kid’s language abilities. Anyone who is telling you that your kid is native level or “on grade level” for their peers “in-country” has a bridge to sell you in Baltimore. Our kids have only every been spoken to in the target language at home and have been assessed by the school as being fluent or native level - and they simply have fewer hours of reading and writing practice and less instinctive grammar constructions than their cousins. Will they be bilingual adults - that’s the goal but it’s taken thousands of hours and dollars OUTSIDE school to make that happen. And we get our kids independently evaluated annually to control for the bias in testing since we hope they will go to college outside the U.S.

This hits at the problem, gauging and defining “fluency”. We are in an immersion school and I realize all of the assessments and grades for language are so subjective. And I think true fluency is not possible without someone speaking the language at home or extreme supplementing. But I also think my bar is higher that other families because I know many who don’t supplement and believe their kids to be fluent. (This is lower elementary)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Being an immersion parent in DC requires a lot of supplementing in early grades at minimum if the goal is bilingualism. If the goal is exposure, that’s a different set of expectations. There’s also a huge incentive for schools and polite neighbors to over-inflate your kid’s language abilities. Anyone who is telling you that your kid is native level or “on grade level” for their peers “in-country” has a bridge to sell you in Baltimore. Our kids have only every been spoken to in the target language at home and have been assessed by the school as being fluent or native level - and they simply have fewer hours of reading and writing practice and less instinctive grammar constructions than their cousins. Will they be bilingual adults - that’s the goal but it’s taken thousands of hours and dollars OUTSIDE school to make that happen. And we get our kids independently evaluated annually to control for the bias in testing since we hope they will go to college outside the U.S.

Are you a native speaker of the target language? How are you spending thousands of hours and dollar outside of school? In our household both parents are native speakers and the only $ we are spending outside of school is the flight tickets to visit the grandparents who only speak the target language. Oh, I forgot the day care $, who was also bilingual.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Being an immersion parent in DC requires a lot of supplementing in early grades at minimum if the goal is bilingualism. If the goal is exposure, that’s a different set of expectations. There’s also a huge incentive for schools and polite neighbors to over-inflate your kid’s language abilities. Anyone who is telling you that your kid is native level or “on grade level” for their peers “in-country” has a bridge to sell you in Baltimore. Our kids have only every been spoken to in the target language at home and have been assessed by the school as being fluent or native level - and they simply have fewer hours of reading and writing practice and less instinctive grammar constructions than their cousins. Will they be bilingual adults - that’s the goal but it’s taken thousands of hours and dollars OUTSIDE school to make that happen. And we get our kids independently evaluated annually to control for the bias in testing since we hope they will go to college outside the U.S.

Are you a native speaker of the target language? How are you spending thousands of hours and dollar outside of school? In our household both parents are native speakers and the only $ we are spending outside of school is the flight tickets to visit the grandparents who only speak the target language. Oh, I forgot the day care $, who was also bilingual.

Yes, we are. We spend additional time reinforcing writing and reading with kids every day. They have a weekly reading and writing tutor. They go to weekend language schools. We import books, games, and pay for streaming content. We have an au pair. We spend two months every summer in-country putting kids in local camps, renting an apartment. We spend holidays in-country putting kids in local camps. They went to immersion preschools. They take music lessons in target language. Adding all of that up, for two kids is thousands of hours annually and thousands of dollars. Again, if the goal is bilingualism (including high level reading and writing) the expectation and effort is different. If the goal is exposure and expecting them to develop adult-level reading and writing skills in college - the expectations are different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We're parents who speaks none of the target language, yet my 7 yo is fluent in Spanish having only started learning the language in kindergarten. Since we don't speak the language ourselves, we always have a Spanish speaking au pair who speaks with her before and after school and all summer. We also vacation in Spanish speaking places where she is immersed. She just spent spring break in a kids club where the majority language was Spanish. She also watches TV and gets library books in Spanish. There are many ways to support a language without actually speaking it yourself.

We have been told that she's fluent and speaks without an accent by many, and her teacher says she is on grade level for a native speaking 2nd grader. I have no reason to doubt this, as she's reading Magic Treehouse in Spanish and chatters up a storm with our au pair.

Where was the spring break kids club?

I want to believe you on the other stuff, but less than two years and speaking with no accent seems implausible... My kids father speaks to them only in Spanish from birth, spanish speaking in-home daycare, immersion schools from PreK 3, 90% of screen time in Spanish and my husband's father still kind of laughs at their "American accent" which is not strong.

[Anonymous]

I see so much vitriol on this page, which is sad. Most American public schools have long failed to provide foreign language instruction at a young enough age for it to be truly beneficial for children, and immersion programs are an effort (albeit one that has flaws, of course) to try and correct that. Does the goal always have to be native bilingualism? I don't think that's realistic, and I don't think that HAS to be the goal.
Research is pretty solid that exposure to another language very early on has significant benefits for children, including making it easier for them to learn a second language later in life. Do we have to keep shitting all over parents who did not receive those benefits as children but who want that early exposure for their own children? Of course choosing immersion could pose difficulties in upper grades, just like many other situations can pose problems for our children as they learn. But it is on those parents to recognize what is and is not working for their own children when issues come up. Why make them feel ashamed for trying to provide their kids with the opportunity to obtain a skill they were never able to have?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Being an immersion parent in DC requires a lot of supplementing in early grades at minimum if the goal is bilingualism. If the goal is exposure, that’s a different set of expectations. There’s also a huge incentive for schools and polite neighbors to over-inflate your kid’s language abilities. Anyone who is telling you that your kid is native level or “on grade level” for their peers “in-country” has a bridge to sell you in Baltimore. Our kids have only every been spoken to in the target language at home and have been assessed by the school as being fluent or native level - and they simply have fewer hours of reading and writing practice and less instinctive grammar constructions than their cousins. Will they be bilingual adults - that’s the goal but it’s taken thousands of hours and dollars OUTSIDE school to make that happen. And we get our kids independently evaluated annually to control for the bias in testing since we hope they will go to college outside the U.S.

Are you a native speaker of the target language? How are you spending thousands of hours and dollar outside of school? In our household both parents are native speakers and the only $ we are spending outside of school is the flight tickets to visit the grandparents who only speak the target language. Oh, I forgot the day care $, who was also bilingual.

Yes, we are. We spend additional time reinforcing writing and reading with kids every day. They have a weekly reading and writing tutor. They go to weekend language schools. We import books, games, and pay for streaming content. We have an au pair. We spend two months every summer in-country putting kids in local camps, renting an apartment. We spend holidays in-country putting kids in local camps. They went to immersion preschools. They take music lessons in target language. Adding all of that up, for two kids is thousands of hours annually and thousands of dollars. Again, if the goal is bilingualism (including high level reading and writing) the expectation and effort is different. If the goal is exposure and expecting them to develop adult-level reading and writing skills in college - the expectations are different.

Thanks for your response. My kid speaks and reads great in Spanish so far, but she is only 7 y/o, I can see how things get harder as they get older and may need to do more. Her writing can improve for sure. We speak 100% Spanish at home, since my Spanish is way better than my English.