Immersion school parents

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They're doing it because it's the best school they got into overall. Or, one parent handles the language stuff but that parent was not at the party.

Some people have more important things going on in their lives, like actual serious problems that are more important.

If you need all parents at your school to be motivated, you're going to be very unhappy in this school system.

This is it, plain and simple. The DC school lottery funnels kids into immersion schools because of push factors, meaning, DCI provides a more solid high school pathway than their IB school or other available DCPS options (that don't require a top 5% lottery draw in one particular year). Some parents don't care about the language at all, but just want that pathway. Others think any language exposure is beneficial, even if their kids never become fluent. Others believe they'll achieve fluency without having to put in any extra effort at home.

Compare with suburban schools that have solid IB options and attract immersion kids through pull factors. Meaning, they want IMMERSION with a longer bus ride more than they want their acceptable neighborhood school. Apples and oranges to DC.

This is sort of true. Some immersion schools absolutely draw in parents who are just looking for a solid school with a good base of invested, involved families and decent test scores.

But in recent years we've seen a proliferation of immersion programs where the school itself is fundamentally flawed, the academics are aggressively bad, and this quickly leads to shedding the families who are education-focused and involved. Take a look at Stokes EE (both languages) and Mundo Verde (especially Calle Ocho, but problems at both campuses). Parents wind up "pushed" to these schools because they assume the quality of education will be higher than it is a their IB or even at non-immersion charters. But these schools have massive problems and many kids aren't learning the language and also aren't learning, period. One factor hitting many immersion (and Montessori) schools is that the teacher shortage is more acute for them because they need teachers with language skills. Well there are less of those. And charters don't always pay teachers well and there's less job security and stability, so you may see a lot of midyear departures, something that is rare in DCPS.

So, sure, if you are getting into YY, LAMB, DCB, Oyster, Marie Reed immersion track -- you are likely getting what you hope. But immersion does not actually equal better academics. In DC, it can actually equal significantly worse academics, because schools can coast with clueless PK families who lottery in thinking they "won" because they got an immersion spot, and only start to wise up in 1st and 2nd when not only do almost none of the kids in class actually speak the language, but also the school's PARCC scores are eye-poppingly bad. And people commute across town for some of these schools!

Immersion has been viewed as a proxy for quality in DC for a while now and the truth is much more complicated than that. Same with charters in general, to some degree (see, i.e. Two Rivers). There are some parents in DC who think they are escaping some horrible travesty by opting into these programs, but it's a house of cards. I'd send my kid to an IB Title 1 in DCPS any day of the week before sending them to MV8th or Stokes EE. But I have an older child and know the difference, and know to look beyond the kids in the PK classroom clapping along to a French counting song. People need to wise up.

My neighbor said the same to me when I chose MV8. Guess who is changing school now in third grade?

Sounds like your neighbor is focused on providing the best education for her child. Changing schools in mid-elementary because your current school is not serving your child is not the self-own you seem to think it is. Maybe they were unlucky in the lottery in earlier grades. Maybe their school was good in lower grades but they watched as other invested families bailed by 3rd and chose to not be left behind. Maybe moving schools got them a preferable MS/HS feed.

And if you are staying at MV8 for DCI, I get it, but that does not magically make it a great school. I'm betting it was not your first choice and you are making it work with what you were able to get in the lottery. Join the club.

No. I responded above, you can read it if you care that much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The same argument OP is making could literally be applied to any subject in school and boils down to opinions about what parental support of education looks like. As your child gets older, you will likely reach a point where you can't really help them with school subjects anymore. That threshold is different for everyone, of course. In most cases, it makes no sense for the parent to learn (or relearn) subjects to support their child. I'm not going to relearn pre-calculus to help my child--I'd rather he get help and support from someone who knows a lot more than me in that subject. Isn't the same true for languages? If I don't know how to speak a language but I want my kids to learn it, me learning the language is only going to go so far to help them--and in some cases might hinder them. But whether I learn how to sing a kid's song in that language--and will actually sing it in public--doesn't mean anything about my support for my child's language learning.

-A parent with kids in a language immersion school that has learned some of the language, including the birthday song, but has never spoken or sung the language in public

I don't have a problem with someone who doesn't speak a language enrolling their kid in language immersion, but disagree that language immersion is no different than a parent not wanting to learn "new math" for 4th graders or not learning enough physics to tutor their high school student. Language immersion IS different, especially when we're talking about immersion at the ECE level, which is when most of these schools are actually doing true immersion.

Ok, so how is it different? How is a parent who doesn’t speak the language going to help their child?

People have mentioned numerous ways in this thread: providing media in the target language, gaining enough familiarity to support their kid's immersion (not becoming fluent but making some effort to learn the basics so they can engage with their kid regarding the language), hiring sitters/nannies who speak the language, pursuing experiences in the target language (from travel to music classes and everything in between), etc.

A lot of parents with kids in early years immersion (and many with kids in later years immersion) do some or all of the above. Meanwhile, almost no one is doing this much to support their kid's in HS-level science or math classes. So yes, immersion is different.

lol, wait until you get to middle and upper elementary and see how far that gets you. Unless you can afford an au pair or summers abroad, it’s up to your kid whether they want to put in the extra effort to get past little kid fluency.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The same argument OP is making could literally be applied to any subject in school and boils down to opinions about what parental support of education looks like. As your child gets older, you will likely reach a point where you can't really help them with school subjects anymore. That threshold is different for everyone, of course. In most cases, it makes no sense for the parent to learn (or relearn) subjects to support their child. I'm not going to relearn pre-calculus to help my child--I'd rather he get help and support from someone who knows a lot more than me in that subject. Isn't the same true for languages? If I don't know how to speak a language but I want my kids to learn it, me learning the language is only going to go so far to help them--and in some cases might hinder them. But whether I learn how to sing a kid's song in that language--and will actually sing it in public--doesn't mean anything about my support for my child's language learning.

-A parent with kids in a language immersion school that has learned some of the language, including the birthday song, but has never spoken or sung the language in public

I don't have a problem with someone who doesn't speak a language enrolling their kid in language immersion, but disagree that language immersion is no different than a parent not wanting to learn "new math" for 4th graders or not learning enough physics to tutor their high school student. Language immersion IS different, especially when we're talking about immersion at the ECE level, which is when most of these schools are actually doing true immersion.

Ok, so how is it different? How is a parent who doesn’t speak the language going to help their child?

People have mentioned numerous ways in this thread: providing media in the target language, gaining enough familiarity to support their kid's immersion (not becoming fluent but making some effort to learn the basics so they can engage with their kid regarding the language), hiring sitters/nannies who speak the language, pursuing experiences in the target language (from travel to music classes and everything in between), etc.

A lot of parents with kids in early years immersion (and many with kids in later years immersion) do some or all of the above. Meanwhile, almost no one is doing this much to support their kid's in HS-level science or math classes. So yes, immersion is different.

You think parents with high school aged kids aren’t supplementing with private tutors, test prep and specialty STEM or other experiences? Yeah, ok.

And to state the obvious here: that amount of supplementation—whether for a language or a core school subject—costs money. Money that a lot of families in DC cannot afford. It also takes time. Not every parent can devote hours each week to study a language just to keep up with their first grader. So let’s not paint such broad brushes about a family’s motivation or seriousness about language just because they aren’t engaging in the time-consuming and costly supplements you think they should.

If you want a school culture where everyone takes the immersion experience as seriously as you think they should, public school is not for you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am having some struggles understanding the culture around the immersion school my kids go to.

It seems that so many families don't care and don't even try to speak the immersion language. I get that they may never speak it, but is it hard to at least try to seem interested?

At a recent 1st grader's birthday party, the parents didn't even know the happy birthday song in that language. After 4 years of their kid immersed in that language??

I just don't get it. Can anyone explain to me?

It seems such a waste to have kids in an immersion school if the parents aren't supporting/encouraging it

Rant over.

I haven’t read all this thread but OP, you sound judgmental and condescending to the extreme.

So what if the parents didn’t want to sing the birthday song who are fluent and so what if some parents don’t know it in Spanish. In no way does that equate that families either don’t care or are not supporting or encouraging their kid.

Frankly, the ass you sound like, I’m surprised families accepted your kids bday invitation at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am having some struggles understanding the culture around the immersion school my kids go to.

It seems that so many families don't care and don't even try to speak the immersion language. I get that they may never speak it, but is it hard to at least try to seem interested?

At a recent 1st grader's birthday party, the parents didn't even know the happy birthday song in that language. After 4 years of their kid immersed in that language??

I just don't get it. Can anyone explain to me?

It seems such a waste to have kids in an immersion school if the parents aren't supporting/encouraging it

Rant over.

Wow. The audacity! Have you even considered the families that almost exclusively speak the target language you are immersing your child in? Let me guess, those kids aren’t invited to your birthday parties? News flash: immersion only works with those kids (whose parents don’t complain about which language happy birthday is in.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:my spanish is pretty good, generally, but let me think, "Estas son las mananitas que cantaba el rey david, hoy por ser el dia de tu santo te las cantamos a ti. Despierta, mi bien, despierta, mira que amanecio, que ya los pajaritos cantan la luna ya se metio....."

I've probably got some mistakes in there, didn't do the accents, and don't know any more verses, but hey!!!! Not everybody who's OK with a language has the birthday song down perfect...

Op, which “happy birthday” song you wanted to sing? Because PP’s song is the Mexican’s version. FYI, There are different songs in Spanish.

[Anonymous]

Still waiting to hear what immersion school this is…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Still waiting to hear what immersion school this is…

This has to be DCB. And is the most stereotypically DCB complaint I could imagine. Maybe LAMB?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Still waiting to hear what immersion school this is…

This has to be DCB. And is the most stereotypically DCB complaint I could imagine. Maybe LAMB?

I agree that it is DCB, parents at DCB are very relax (which helps the school a lot.)

[Anonymous]

My child has been in an immersion school since birth and is now in 8th grade and is fluent. DH and I know enough Spanish (various words) to get our point across I would say if need be, but don’t speak it at school as our “r” don’t roll correctly and we think we sound dumb trying.

Several teachers over the years have asked if our DD spoke Spanish at home which we do not. Other than having our DD watch the Spanish channel occasionally she grasped doing her work on her own.

[Anonymous]

PP her a DCPS immersion school and is now at a traditional middle school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We're parents who speaks none of the target language, yet my 7 yo is fluent in Spanish having only started learning the language in kindergarten. Since we don't speak the language ourselves, we always have a Spanish speaking au pair who speaks with her before and after school and all summer. We also vacation in Spanish speaking places where she is immersed. She just spent spring break in a kids club where the majority language was Spanish. She also watches TV and gets library books in Spanish. There are many ways to support a language without actually speaking it yourself.

We have been told that she's fluent and speaks without an accent by many, and her teacher says she is on grade level for a native speaking 2nd grader. I have no reason to doubt this, as she's reading Magic Treehouse in Spanish and chatters up a storm with our au pair.

Cool story bro! I see you’re actually trying to support your children, but just fyi, people who are paid to teach your kids spanish aren’t going to be the most reliable sources to determine your kiddos’s ability. When I go to my kids school, they have a different standard for kids whose parents actually speak the target language. Just FYI.

If PP has an au pair, I believe that her kid is fluent. I am a native speaker and I have seen that some of my kids classmate with Spanish speaking Nannie’s/aupair are fluent.
These kids have been speaking Spanish since babies.

No 7 year old is fluent, in any language. They do not having the vocabulary, reading or writing ability to be fluent. If someone came to me and claimed to be “fluent” in English because they can read Magic Treehouse, I would not take that person seriously but also not argue with them because what’s the point?

The kid is going a great job… but not fluent.

I don't think you know what the word fluent means. Look it up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The same argument OP is making could literally be applied to any subject in school and boils down to opinions about what parental support of education looks like. As your child gets older, you will likely reach a point where you can't really help them with school subjects anymore. That threshold is different for everyone, of course. In most cases, it makes no sense for the parent to learn (or relearn) subjects to support their child. I'm not going to relearn pre-calculus to help my child--I'd rather he get help and support from someone who knows a lot more than me in that subject. Isn't the same true for languages? If I don't know how to speak a language but I want my kids to learn it, me learning the language is only going to go so far to help them--and in some cases might hinder them. But whether I learn how to sing a kid's song in that language--and will actually sing it in public--doesn't mean anything about my support for my child's language learning.

-A parent with kids in a language immersion school that has learned some of the language, including the birthday song, but has never spoken or sung the language in public

I don't have a problem with someone who doesn't speak a language enrolling their kid in language immersion, but disagree that language immersion is no different than a parent not wanting to learn "new math" for 4th graders or not learning enough physics to tutor their high school student. Language immersion IS different, especially when we're talking about immersion at the ECE level, which is when most of these schools are actually doing true immersion.

Ok, so how is it different? How is a parent who doesn’t speak the language going to help their child?

People have mentioned numerous ways in this thread: providing media in the target language, gaining enough familiarity to support their kid's immersion (not becoming fluent but making some effort to learn the basics so they can engage with their kid regarding the language), hiring sitters/nannies who speak the language, pursuing experiences in the target language (from travel to music classes and everything in between), etc.

A lot of parents with kids in early years immersion (and many with kids in later years immersion) do some or all of the above. Meanwhile, almost no one is doing this much to support their kid's in HS-level science or math classes. So yes, immersion is different.

lol, wait until you get to middle and upper elementary and see how far that gets you. Unless you can afford an au pair or summers abroad, it’s up to your kid whether they want to put in the extra effort to get past little kid fluency.

I mean, the comment was specifically about how supporting actual immersion in the early grades is different from supporting kids in other subjects in upper grades. There are no public school programs in DC that do true immersion past 1st or 2nd anyway -- by middle elementary their core subjects are in English. So we are mostly talking about how parents can support it at the ECE+ level.

However, I just want to note that you don't have to be able to afford an au pair or summers abroad to support lots of Spanish exposure in the US. A middle class family can afford trips to Central America or the Caribbean here and there, and there are TONS of opportunities for things like Spanish-language camps and groups. So at least with Spanish, it honestly would not be that hard for a committed family to continue to support in this way into upper elementary and middle school, assuming MC or UMC.

[Anonymous]

Damn! Y’all are annoying lol

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The same argument OP is making could literally be applied to any subject in school and boils down to opinions about what parental support of education looks like. As your child gets older, you will likely reach a point where you can't really help them with school subjects anymore. That threshold is different for everyone, of course. In most cases, it makes no sense for the parent to learn (or relearn) subjects to support their child. I'm not going to relearn pre-calculus to help my child--I'd rather he get help and support from someone who knows a lot more than me in that subject. Isn't the same true for languages? If I don't know how to speak a language but I want my kids to learn it, me learning the language is only going to go so far to help them--and in some cases might hinder them. But whether I learn how to sing a kid's song in that language--and will actually sing it in public--doesn't mean anything about my support for my child's language learning.

-A parent with kids in a language immersion school that has learned some of the language, including the birthday song, but has never spoken or sung the language in public

I don't have a problem with someone who doesn't speak a language enrolling their kid in language immersion, but disagree that language immersion is no different than a parent not wanting to learn "new math" for 4th graders or not learning enough physics to tutor their high school student. Language immersion IS different, especially when we're talking about immersion at the ECE level, which is when most of these schools are actually doing true immersion.

Ok, so how is it different? How is a parent who doesn’t speak the language going to help their child?

People have mentioned numerous ways in this thread: providing media in the target language, gaining enough familiarity to support their kid's immersion (not becoming fluent but making some effort to learn the basics so they can engage with their kid regarding the language), hiring sitters/nannies who speak the language, pursuing experiences in the target language (from travel to music classes and everything in between), etc.

A lot of parents with kids in early years immersion (and many with kids in later years immersion) do some or all of the above. Meanwhile, almost no one is doing this much to support their kid's in HS-level science or math classes. So yes, immersion is different.

lol, wait until you get to middle and upper elementary and see how far that gets you. Unless you can afford an au pair or summers abroad, it’s up to your kid whether they want to put in the extra effort to get past little kid fluency.

I mean, the comment was specifically about how supporting actual immersion in the early grades is different from supporting kids in other subjects in upper grades. There are no public school programs in DC that do true immersion past 1st or 2nd anyway -- by middle elementary their core subjects are in English. So we are mostly talking about how parents can support it at the ECE+ level.

However, I just want to note that you don't have to be able to afford an au pair or summers abroad to support lots of Spanish exposure in the US. A middle class family can afford trips to Central America or the Caribbean here and there, and there are TONS of opportunities for things like Spanish-language camps and groups. So at least with Spanish, it honestly would not be that hard for a committed family to continue to support in this way into upper elementary and middle school, assuming MC or UMC.

As a parent raising bilingual children, I don't agree with this magical thinking. For little kids, you have an adult who speaks the language in the home, or you don't. Spanish exposure on trips to Central American and summer language camps isn't going to help until the middle school level. It is in fact hard even for a committed family, even one with the resources for au pairs for years, to raise a Spanish-speaking child if neither parent speaks good enough Spanish to speak it to the child most of the time. One of us speaks a language to our middle school age kids at least half the time, and they spend a good month at their grandparents' house in the summer, where the language is spoken all the time. Yet I wouldn't say that my kids are fluent.