Gaza War, Part 3
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Anonymous
What, somehow citing the fact that Hamas has over 400 miles of secret tunnels to move around and hide in is somehow "revealing bias and assumption?" Maybe you need some more context to give you a more realistic perspective on things. As an example, the tunnel complex under the Azovstal iron works in Ukraine was not even 5% that big and yet it still took Russia, the world's 2nd most powerful military 3 months to clear them. And contrary to your notions of Israel being one of the most powerful militaries, isn't even in the top 10 where it comes to military strength. They come in below Pakistan, Brazil, Indonesia et cetera and are barely even in the top 20. No, you aren't forcing or accomplishing anything other than baking pretzels in your own head. |
Anonymous
well this time it yielded starvation. |
Anonymous
They can return IF they are peaceful. They are entitled to compensation IF they can show they are in fact entitled to it. That's right in the terms of 194. On the compensation front, the Ottomans and the British administrators were definitely known for being bureaucrats and for keeping records, and as such, the land records archives would show who legally owned what land. But again, a majority of Palestinians were tenants who did not own the land. If they are returning, they need to abide and remain peaceful, or they lose their right to be there. If they are not returning, they need to show legal records proving ownership in order to claim compensation. |
Anonymous
This is nonsense. It is very clear that it is Israel is deliberately obstructing the flow of supplies into Gaza. Israeli officials such as Israel Katz, Itamar Ben-Gvir, and Yoav Gallant have made no secret of their intent to deprive Gazans of water, food, and fuel. The Israeli military has bombed farms and greenhouses, killed livestock, and opened fire on Gazans trying to access aid. Three days ago, Israel announced it would no longer approve truckloads of UNRWA aid into northern Gaza, and it's deliberately slowing down the food trucks. There is clear intent to create a man-made famine, which is why Israel is guilty of genocide. |
Anonymous
Arab Palestinians owned a lot more land than Jewish Palestinians. It was stolen from them, and they are certainly entitled to compensation. But it was not only the land that was stolen, and there must also be compensation for stolen lives and property. During the Nakba, IDF soldiers massacred and raped Palestinians, cleaned out their bank accounts, stole their furniture, and stole many personal effects. They cut the fingers of massacred women to steal their rings. They stopped Palestinians at checkpoints and rifled through their possessions, stealing items of value. They stole their livelihoods. Even in cases where Palestinians did not own the land, they built homes, stables, and developed orchards. Their homes were bulldozed or given away. Since you are keen on people remaining peaceful, are non-peaceful Israelis allowed to stay on the stolen land? Or should they be evicted? There are about three-quarters of a million Israeli squatters causing trouble in the West Bank. They had no right to be there in the first place and should obviously by removed. |
Anonymous
It's frankly astounding how you are able to operate in some parallel universe where somehow Hamas does not exist. Just plain dishonest. |
Anonymous
If they owned the land rather than being tenants then that would be reflected in the land records. I have yet to see that case made. It's a fact that a majority of Palestinians were tenants. It's also amazing how people refer to the Nakba as if the Palestinians were minding their own business, and suddenly out of nowhere the Jews attacked them and stole everything from them. That is not at all the case. The Nakba happened as a result of the Palestinian rejection of the UN partition plan, where Palestinian arabs, supported by military forces from Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq attempted to eliminate the Jews and take everything from them. They ultimately failed in that. In that conflict, there was considerable brutality and atrocities committed by both sides, however mostly by disorganized paramilitaries. Were Palestinians forced to evacuate and flee their homes by Jews? Yes. But Arab forces also drove Palestinians from their homes as well. Did private civilians' possessions get stolen? Yes, by both sides. All of those are things typically seen in just about every war known to history. |
Anonymous
Actually that was news to the Arabs- they went as a political entity and allied themselves with the Allies against the Ottomans in order to gain self governance & sovereignty. you can say they were naive that they believed the British wouldn't colonize them and I completely agree that they should've taken the partition plan and listened to the Muslim leaders who warned them against selling land to European emigres. I do feel sorrow for them in the same way I feel sorrow for all native victims of colonization who were pushed off their lands and out of their homes and lets be real- democracy will have completely failed and the world will be back to fuedallism within our children's lifetimes so we should feel this sadness for powerless people. its awful when eminent domain and the powers that be push a people around but people should also bow down and accept their weakness and just live, the alternative is too brutal. there is absolutely no point in resistance to the powerful unless you are willing to live with horrific violence for generations. It's better to just take your losses and live your small life of peace in whatever place you can find refuge, the United States is full of people who have made this choice. |
Anonymous
You are skipping the part where present day turks have ceded land rights to the Arabs, also there are laws in place prohibiting sale of Jewish owned land to Arabs, Israelis or not. There is redlining- in Israel there are racial covenants that make it impossible for an Arab Israeli, let alone a returning Palestinian from Jordan, from purchasing property from a Jew, let alone claiming it. I'm sorry but Hamas is horrible and violent but Israeli actions against the Arabs living in their territory were also in clear violation of post UN intl. law and norms. we expect people living in 1968 to behave with more humanity than white pioneers in 1868. The original religious beliefs held by Ben Gvir, Daniella Weiss, Smotrich are just as much at odds with contemporary human ethics as the Hindu caste system and Taliban/Isis Islamic systems of belief. These are backward religious beliefs that modern humanity has every right & responsibility to condemns, ridicule and be horrified by & it is is NOT antisemitism to do so. Some Semitic beliefs like being 'chosen' or superior and having a right to ethnically cleanse land b/c God gave it to your ancestors is not acceptable and ridiculous and should be ridiculed and disrespected and laughed ar and pushed back against. In the same way that crazy beliefs about women by Muslim Pashtuns should be pushed back against and ridiculed and disrespected and dismantled wherever possible. Jewish beliefs about their ancient indigenous land are just as backwards as the belief of far right hindus who want to reinstate the caste system expel Sikhs& muslims and create a "hindu rashtra". teh UN resolution gave the europeans jews the right to settle in their old indigenous lands but it didnt give them the right to expel the people living there and steal the rings from their fingers and earrings from their ears as they march them out of their homes and limit them from buying and selling property and have different laws concerning immigration and intermarriage. (There are currently anti-miscegenation laws in Israel that forbid intermarriage between Jews and Arabs) |
Anonymous
Do you have a citation for where the Turks ceded land rights to the Arabs? And if so, what lands? Significant portions of Palestine were state lands of the Ottoman Empire which dissolved as a result of WWI. By the Treaty of Sevres the only Ottoman state lands that Turkey got to keep were within Turkey's own boundaries. State lands of the Ottoman empire in Palestine went to Allied control and were no longer for the Turks to have a say over. That leaves private lands and waqfs. Waqfs are owned by religious endowments for mosques and so on. The private lands in Palestine were not, by anything I've ever seen somehow ceded en masse by Turkey to Palestinian Arabs. After all, that is how Jews were able to purchase lands, they bought them from their legal owners. Lets stick to facts one at a time without a whirlwind of sikhs and pashtuns and ben gvirs and everything else. That's what makes the conversation incoherent. |
Anonymous
| There's also the myth that Palestinians "owned 94% of the land" which is incorrect. Here's at least one citation which points out that the partition plan actually by and large mirrored lands that had already been purchased by Jews or which were otherwise not Arab owned, but which also lays out several other numbers along with comparing the before and after of the Arab-Israeli war. https://israeled.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/themes-land-issue-2-22-13.pdf |
Anonymous
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You understand the details of 19th Century Ottoman Empire Real Estate Law but can't understand intentional starvation and lying/exaggerating about events?
Regardless, Israel proper has never really been under discussion. The only people that oppose the '67 lines are Hamas and Bibi's Boys, both of which are trying to prevent peace from ever happening. The main issue is the status of the West Bank and Gaza which have never legally been Israeli territory. |
Anonymous
Israel is much much worse vs hamas. What 160 days of Oct7 with no end in site. Truly evil. We all know it is Israel can't live in peace with any country. |
Anonymous
You can't understand that Hamas also has a role in the starvation and civilian death toll and that it isn't just happening in a vacuum with the IDF as the sole actor? |
Anonymous
What do you consider to be the status of the West Bank? In 1947 it was proposed to be a Palestinian state but was annexed by Jordan after 1948. It then came under Israeli control in the 1967 war, and was run as a military governorship until 1982, when the Egypt-Israel treaty transitioned it to a civilian authority. Jordan formally renounced its claim to the lands in 1988. So what's your cut-and-dried take on that? |