St. Ann’s (NYC) - Private School Horror Show

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

We do know that the school sent the decline to enroll in February, which is too late to transfer elsewhere

I am in full agreement that they should have let the family know of the decline earlier, so that they could apply to privates specializing in kids with disabilities, if private is what they wanted. However, it is not accurate to say it was "too late to transfer elsewhere." Public school, which the vast majority of children in the US attend, and is legally required to provide accommodations, is always an option.

Oh come on. In order to get accommodations in public school districts, you need an IEP. And those take months and months, and usually by February are done for services for the following year. The PP was correctly summarizing the situation.

100% nonsense. You clearly have no understanding of the law. Schools can't just say "Welp, we're done providing services this year." That's not at all how it works.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

We do know that the school sent the decline to enroll in February, which is too late to transfer elsewhere

I am in full agreement that they should have let the family know of the decline earlier, so that they could apply to privates specializing in kids with disabilities, if private is what they wanted. However, it is not accurate to say it was "too late to transfer elsewhere." Public school, which the vast majority of children in the US attend, and is legally required to provide accommodations, is always an option.

Oh come on. In order to get accommodations in public school districts, you need an IEP. And those take months and months, and usually by February are done for services for the following year. The PP was correctly summarizing the situation.

100% nonsense. You clearly have no understanding of the law. Schools can't just say "Welp, we're done providing services this year." That's not at all how it works.

This private told the parents they could not support this child for several years and the parents refused to listen. They did not have a specialist for ADD and dyslexia. This shouldn't have come as a surprise to the parents. They were asked to switch their child and the parents refused. Most privates cannot support moderate to severe special needs. The parents answer was to get a tutor and when that didn't help, they still refused to change schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

We do know that the school sent the decline to enroll in February, which is too late to transfer elsewhere

I am in full agreement that they should have let the family know of the decline earlier, so that they could apply to privates specializing in kids with disabilities, if private is what they wanted. However, it is not accurate to say it was "too late to transfer elsewhere." Public school, which the vast majority of children in the US attend, and is legally required to provide accommodations, is always an option.

Oh come on. In order to get accommodations in public school districts, you need an IEP. And those take months and months, and usually by February are done for services for the following year. The PP was correctly summarizing the situation.

They got a neuropsych in elementary school, several years prior. Even it if took a year to get an IEP at a public, they would have had one for several years. This wasn't a new issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can someone please summarize what exactly happened? Thank you in advance.

Ellis Lariviere, a 13 year old, 8th grade student, committed suicide in May 2021, roughly 3 months after leaving/being counseled out/dismissed from St. Ann's.

Ellis' academic difficulties surfaced in 2nd grade, St. Ann's recommended an evaluation, and immediately into his 3rd grade year, the school/HOS suggested that Ellis' parents look into other schools to meet his needs (ADD and dyslexia diagnosis) because St. Ann's could not. Ellis was allowed to return for 4th grade and maintained enrollment, based on the advice of the neuropsychologist/evaluator.

Fast forward five years, Ellis is counseled out/denied a 9th grade seat, was devastated to be out of the school, and subsequently took his own life.

As of April 2023, the parents are suing the school for their son's death because they believe the school’s policies directly led to their son’s death. Ellis' grandfather, chairman of a major real estate developer, has also joined forces. The HOS resigned at the end of the 22-23 school year.

Why was he he denied enrollment? Was he haring / disturbing other kids? Did he fail out?

According to the article, "Ellis had never been asked to repeat a class or been disciplined for behavioral issues. There was no grading structure in which he had failed. His midyear reports from eighth grade note his problems with writing and organization, but also his progress, and they praise him for his creative thinking and contributions to his classes."

I would hope a school said positive things but it was clear there were discussions about his academics prior to this if you read in between the lines. The schools suggested the evaluation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We don't really know what the school did or didn't do. They would be limited in what they can say about an individual student under any circumstances and once the parents filed suit, there's no way the school will say anything outside a courtroom. Maybe the annual reports included positive *and* negative feedback? Maybe the school gave additional signals about HS not being a good fit for the kid? Maybe not, but the reader has literally no way to know.

By definition, the piece only includes the parents' side of the story. And they have no incentive to offer any information that might undercut their case. Which btw is why it seems quite weird for the NYT to do a deep dive on the case, especially written by a former parent at the school.

We do know that the school sent the decline to enroll in February, which is too late to transfer elsewhere. That is a fact which makes the school look very bad.

I feel very bad for the parents and understand why they are devastated, but it sounds like the school had been telling them for 5 years that he was not a good fit and that he should go elsewhere because they could not help him.

Possible but I read it as they suggested leaving in 3rd, parents said, actually we want to stay snd we will get him help (which the school agreed to do) and then leaving the school wasn’t raised again till Feb of 8th grade.

It did say there was some friction with the school and that may have been them repeatedly asking them to leave but I think the article gave the impression they were surprised in 8th grade (and it seems like the friction in the intervening years could have been more garden variety “you’re not giving him the calculator accommodation we discussed!” and “he’s not turning in his homework!” type stuff. )

In any case, I think it’s true that it’s not the schools fault and that they did behave badly.

[Anonymous]

The school has major issues with the handling of this specific student and counseling out in general. There needs to be benchmarks and a corrective action plan to remain in school.

-K and 1st: Teachers say he is an “outstanding student,” one wrote, and “obviously artistically gifted.” Teachers praised his empathy and care for other students."

-2nd and 3rd: learning disorders emerge, family hires a tutor. At start of 3rd grade, headmaster of lower school suggests he goes elsewhere for 4th grade. School recommends evaluator for a neuropsyche who finds: "he had a high I.Q. and good reading comprehension but that he had trouble retrieving letters and numbers when writing." Mother asks neuropsyche evaluator about whether child should remain at St Ann's or go to a specialist school, evaluator states: "“She said, ‘He can do it with support,’” Ms. Lariviere said. “I asked, ‘What about these specialized schools?’ And she said, ‘That would be overkill,’” and that Ellis might be bored."

-3rd grade: "Ellis’s third-grade teachers continued to give him positive reports, even as the administration said he should look elsewhere. So Mr. Gural asked: What benchmarks was Ellis not meeting? The school ultimately allowed him to return for fourth grade."

-4th to 7th grade: the story does not address this time period, big red flag IMHO

-8th grade: "Ellis had never been asked to repeat a class or been disciplined for behavioral issues. There was no grading structure in which he had failed. His midyear reports from eighth grade note his problems with writing and organization, but also his progress, and they praise him for his creative thinking and contributions to his classes."


I get why his parents were shocked. He seemed to be plodding along in school and had no disciplinary problems.

[Anonymous]

What kind of ghoul takes a story like this and tries to spin out a bigger narrative about private schools?

I have some tough news for you if you think suicide doesn’t happen in public school.

[Anonymous]

It is unfortunate that the neuropsychologist and/or parents came to the conclusion that a specialized school for dyslexia would have been "overkill." These are parents who could afford such a school and whose child might have really thrived at such a school. I know a family who sent one child to such a school and their DC was quite intelligent and capable. Their DC benefited from it immensely and was able to succeed at a mainstream school later on. I have another friend who is also concerned about sending her kid a specialized school for the same reason as the parents in the article--that the other kids at the school are worse off than her DC. So even parents of non-neurotypical kids are often concerned about a school environment where their kids might be more capable than the other kids. I wonder if this concern might prevent lots of kids from getting the targeted intervention they need.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It is unfortunate that the neuropsychologist and/or parents came to the conclusion that a specialized school for dyslexia would have been "overkill." These are parents who could afford such a school and whose child might have really thrived at such a school. I know a family who sent one child to such a school and their DC was quite intelligent and capable. Their DC benefited from it immensely and was able to succeed at a mainstream school later on. I have another friend who is also concerned about sending her kid a specialized school for the same reason as the parents in the article--that the other kids at the school are worse off than her DC. So even parents of non-neurotypical kids are often concerned about a school environment where their kids might be more capable than the other kids. I wonder if this concern might prevent lots of kids from getting the targeted intervention they need.

Re-read this and it sounds like I am blaming the parents. I totally get why they felt like they wanted him to stay. I just meant to say dyslexic schools can benefit students who are quite bright.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

We do know that the school sent the decline to enroll in February, which is too late to transfer elsewhere

I am in full agreement that they should have let the family know of the decline earlier, so that they could apply to privates specializing in kids with disabilities, if private is what they wanted. However, it is not accurate to say it was "too late to transfer elsewhere." Public school, which the vast majority of children in the US attend, and is legally required to provide accommodations, is always an option.

Oh come on. In order to get accommodations in public school districts, you need an IEP. And those take months and months, and usually by February are done for services for the following year. The PP was correctly summarizing the situation.

They got a neuropsych in elementary school, several years prior. Even it if took a year to get an IEP at a public, they would have had one for several years. This wasn't a new issue.

The ignorance of IEPs in this thread is baffling. A neuropsych report is NOT an IEP. And if their neuropsych report was older than a certain amount of time, they would have to get a new one. Private school kids often don’t get IEPs because there is no point. They do get neuropsych reports, but schools vary on their timing (though most use three years because that is what the College Board uses).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

We do know that the school sent the decline to enroll in February, which is too late to transfer elsewhere

I am in full agreement that they should have let the family know of the decline earlier, so that they could apply to privates specializing in kids with disabilities, if private is what they wanted. However, it is not accurate to say it was "too late to transfer elsewhere." Public school, which the vast majority of children in the US attend, and is legally required to provide accommodations, is always an option.

Oh come on. In order to get accommodations in public school districts, you need an IEP. And those take months and months, and usually by February are done for services for the following year. The PP was correctly summarizing the situation.

100% nonsense. You clearly have no understanding of the law. Schools can't just say "Welp, we're done providing services this year." That's not at all how it works.

You are wildly ignorant of reality. I’m not even sure where to start with this. It’s like you are reading some sort of school propaganda and ignorant of how the actual system works.

[Anonymous]

It could be the school failed him -tossed him out like trash after years of him being there. His parents appear to of the type of wealth for the accommodations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

We do know that the school sent the decline to enroll in February, which is too late to transfer elsewhere

I am in full agreement that they should have let the family know of the decline earlier, so that they could apply to privates specializing in kids with disabilities, if private is what they wanted. However, it is not accurate to say it was "too late to transfer elsewhere." Public school, which the vast majority of children in the US attend, and is legally required to provide accommodations, is always an option.

Oh come on. In order to get accommodations in public school districts, you need an IEP. And those take months and months, and usually by February are done for services for the following year. The PP was correctly summarizing the situation.

I have to agree. Watching my best friend navigate the IEP process for her daughter was utterly ridiculous and overwhelming, even for me as a bystander. It seems to be such a long-haul effort for so many. Some schools/teachers just don't seem to care. I couldn't believe the lack of response, the indifference to requests, the poor write-ups, the missed timelines, etc. My friend gave up. Her daughter is at Lab School. And that was a hard pill to swallow as my friend was adamantly anti-private. It took many conversations to even have her seriously consider private over shuffling her daughter through public and charters.

[Anonymous]

As the parent of a child with a disability, it seems like a classic case of the parents focusing on the child they want instead of the child they have. Private schools are the educational equivalent of at-will employment - it can end anytime for no real reason. The tuition isn't buying you a custom education, it's simply buying you exclusivity. I assume they always imagined that for their son and it never occurred to them that the universe thought otherwise. It's quite common, unfortunately.

These parents insisted on keeping their child at a school that wasn't going to support his disability, probably because the prestige of the school felt more important than having a right-fit education for their child. They could have spent their money on a school that would nurture and develop the child they had and help him close his learning gaps, but they chose otherwise. It's normal to mourn the child you thought you'd have, but you can't let that get in the way of doing right by the child in front of you. Even though there were no grades (and accordingly no standards to measure improvement or set goals), I'm sure he was acutely aware of his differences, it affected his self-esteem, and the school wasn't built to support him emotionally or academically. The expulsion was just the final straw. There's a lot the school could have done better, namely push him out in elementary. But I have a hard time finding fault with the school.

[Anonymous]

Oh come on. In order to get accommodations in public school districts, you need an IEP. And those take months and months, and usually by February are done for services for the following year. The PP was correctly summarizing the situation.

I'm not disputing that has been some people's experience, but it wasn't ours. It didn't take months to get my son's IEP for ED, it was a fairly quick process. Perhaps it is different for disabilities that are only focused on learning vs. behavior, I don't know.