St. Ann’s (NYC) - Private School Horror Show

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I also want to say that St Ann's is not a cutthroat private school. No grades, no note taking, heavy interest in the arts. Puppetry and poetry are really big. A lot of self directed learning. I know parents who have been frustrated with the lack of rigor (ie they can spend an entire 11th grade semester on one novel .. which , okay, but kids go to college really not used to demands).

Admissions favors the rich and famous, by a lot, which helps with college admissions (full pay plus famous name). But also lots of room for grads to move on to places like SCAD and Culinary Institute or Parsons or Stella Adler or undefined gap years.

Which is all to say, I don't think it's unusual for a kid to be evaluated in early years as potentially an issue and then parents thought the ship was righted. And a kid whose future looked more like artist-baker than IB grinder would NOT be out of the norm. Because they all have granddad's money.

And I do understand the anger that comes from "We Celebrate the Individual Child .. except you, son"

I really understand counseling out a behavior case from St Ann's or an academic case from most other privates. But this case from St Ann's seems unnecessary.

10 bucks says the St Ann's administrators really wanted that seat and they already had a famous-wealthy family in mind to take it. They had to jettison this kid for a new entrant to 9th grade.

How many kids enter St Ann's in 9th grade? I'm sure current families can pretty easily figure out who it was that took the kid's seat. Bigger fish in a small pond.

If they really want an applicant, any private school will find the room. They don't have to "jettison" a kid to do it.

+1
The school had been trying to gently “jettison” this poor child for years and the parents had their heads in the sand.

But that's not how it works. Private schools tell parents at the beginning of the school year that a new contract will not be offered in the spring for the following year. It is explicit, there is no wishy-washy language, and it is typically in writing.

The article does not mention this, only the subtle hints 4-5 years earlier and then the lack of contract in February.

Here's how I'm thinking this played out: admin wanted the kid gone, but teachers + parent did not agree. Kid kept getting decent progress reports from the teachers (helped along by his supports) and no disciplinary issues, therefore the parents were expecting to continue. The admin didn't put anything in writing, so as to not upset the rich grandfather. Once the elder brother was far enough into HS, the school admins knew they could dump the young brother without the older brother withdrawing since he was too far along in HS tenure to withdraw from the school + his friends in the aftermath of the pandemic.

It's a very shady situation. There's probably more to the story than what's in the article, but I also wouldn't pull my kid out of the school given its focus on the arts and individualized education. The kid didn't need special ed.

As a long time private school employee, I can't envision a scenario where this would happen. Why would the admin want to counsel a kid out if the teachers wanted him to stay and felt they could support his needs? It's usually the other way around-- teachers want the school to counsel kids out because they feel they can't meet their needs, but admin is hesitant to do so. Much more likely that the teachers have been saying this year after year, and admin dragged their feet before finally pulling the trigger.

Explain this:

In the two years since Ellis’s death, his parents have turned the circumstances over in their heads again and again. Ellis had never been asked to repeat a class or been disciplined for behavioral issues. There was no grading structure in which he had failed. His midyear reports from eighth grade note his problems with writing and organization, but also his progress, and they praise him for his creative thinking and contributions to his classes.

I know we are only getting half the story here with this article, but a mid-year report in 8th grade is the perfect CYA opportunity for the school if they were going planning to withdraw his offer for the fall. That mid-year report should be brutal and it's not, per the author.

St. Ann's graduates around 80 kids per year: https://saintannsny.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/SchoolProfile22-23-final.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I also want to say that St Ann's is not a cutthroat private school. No grades, no note taking, heavy interest in the arts. Puppetry and poetry are really big. A lot of self directed learning. I know parents who have been frustrated with the lack of rigor (ie they can spend an entire 11th grade semester on one novel .. which , okay, but kids go to college really not used to demands).

Admissions favors the rich and famous, by a lot, which helps with college admissions (full pay plus famous name). But also lots of room for grads to move on to places like SCAD and Culinary Institute or Parsons or Stella Adler or undefined gap years.

Which is all to say, I don't think it's unusual for a kid to be evaluated in early years as potentially an issue and then parents thought the ship was righted. And a kid whose future looked more like artist-baker than IB grinder would NOT be out of the norm. Because they all have granddad's money.

And I do understand the anger that comes from "We Celebrate the Individual Child .. except you, son"

I really understand counseling out a behavior case from St Ann's or an academic case from most other privates. But this case from St Ann's seems unnecessary.

10 bucks says the St Ann's administrators really wanted that seat and they already had a famous-wealthy family in mind to take it. They had to jettison this kid for a new entrant to 9th grade.

How many kids enter St Ann's in 9th grade? I'm sure current families can pretty easily figure out who it was that took the kid's seat. Bigger fish in a small pond.

If they really want an applicant, any private school will find the room. They don't have to "jettison" a kid to do it.

+1
The school had been trying to gently “jettison” this poor child for years and the parents had their heads in the sand.

But that's not how it works. Private schools tell parents at the beginning of the school year that a new contract will not be offered in the spring for the following year. It is explicit, there is no wishy-washy language, and it is typically in writing.

The article does not mention this, only the subtle hints 4-5 years earlier and then the lack of contract in February.

Here's how I'm thinking this played out: admin wanted the kid gone, but teachers + parent did not agree. Kid kept getting decent progress reports from the teachers (helped along by his supports) and no disciplinary issues, therefore the parents were expecting to continue. The admin didn't put anything in writing, so as to not upset the rich grandfather. Once the elder brother was far enough into HS, the school admins knew they could dump the young brother without the older brother withdrawing since he was too far along in HS tenure to withdraw from the school + his friends in the aftermath of the pandemic.

It's a very shady situation. There's probably more to the story than what's in the article, but I also wouldn't pull my kid out of the school given its focus on the arts and individualized education. The kid didn't need special ed.

As a long time private school employee, I can't envision a scenario where this would happen. Why would the admin want to counsel a kid out if the teachers wanted him to stay and felt they could support his needs? It's usually the other way around-- teachers want the school to counsel kids out because they feel they can't meet their needs, but admin is hesitant to do so. Much more likely that the teachers have been saying this year after year, and admin dragged their feet before finally pulling the trigger.

Explain this:

In the two years since Ellis’s death, his parents have turned the circumstances over in their heads again and again. Ellis had never been asked to repeat a class or been disciplined for behavioral issues. There was no grading structure in which he had failed. His midyear reports from eighth grade note his problems with writing and organization, but also his progress, and they praise him for his creative thinking and contributions to his classes.

I know we are only getting half the story here with this article, but a mid-year report in 8th grade is the perfect CYA opportunity for the school if they were going planning to withdraw his offer for the fall. That mid-year report should be brutal and it's not, per the author.

St. Ann's graduates around 80 kids per year: https://saintannsny.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/SchoolProfile22-23-final.pdf

The article doesn't explain the balance of the report. It is quite possible that the concerns with his writing level and lack of progress were 80% of the report while acknowledging strengths in the other 20%. There was no need for the school to ignore the child's creative thinking while also raising concern about being able to keep up with the classwork.

[Anonymous]

and again. Ellis had never been asked to repeat a class or been disciplined for behavioral issues. There was no grading structure in which he had failed. His midyear reports from eighth grade note his problems with writing and organization, but also his progress, and they praise him for his creative thinking and contributions to his classes.


I know we are only getting half the story here with this article, but a mid-year report in 8th grade is the perfect CYA opportunity for the school if they were going planning to withdraw his offer for the fall. That mid-year report should be brutal and it's not, per the author.

Without seeing it, we cannot opine on this. It is overall a very sad situation. It could be that the school did not treat the kid as it should have in terms of the timing of giving notice (I don't know either way). However, I really don't think the lawsuit has any legal basis, regardless of whether the school did what I consider the morally right thing (giving him adequate advance notice and trying to help him get placed elsewhere).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I also want to say that St Ann's is not a cutthroat private school. No grades, no note taking, heavy interest in the arts. Puppetry and poetry are really big. A lot of self directed learning. I know parents who have been frustrated with the lack of rigor (ie they can spend an entire 11th grade semester on one novel .. which , okay, but kids go to college really not used to demands).

Admissions favors the rich and famous, by a lot, which helps with college admissions (full pay plus famous name). But also lots of room for grads to move on to places like SCAD and Culinary Institute or Parsons or Stella Adler or undefined gap years.

Which is all to say, I don't think it's unusual for a kid to be evaluated in early years as potentially an issue and then parents thought the ship was righted. And a kid whose future looked more like artist-baker than IB grinder would NOT be out of the norm. Because they all have granddad's money.

And I do understand the anger that comes from "We Celebrate the Individual Child .. except you, son"

I really understand counseling out a behavior case from St Ann's or an academic case from most other privates. But this case from St Ann's seems unnecessary.

10 bucks says the St Ann's administrators really wanted that seat and they already had a famous-wealthy family in mind to take it. They had to jettison this kid for a new entrant to 9th grade.

How many kids enter St Ann's in 9th grade? I'm sure current families can pretty easily figure out who it was that took the kid's seat. Bigger fish in a small pond.

If they really want an applicant, any private school will find the room. They don't have to "jettison" a kid to do it.

+1
The school had been trying to gently “jettison” this poor child for years and the parents had their heads in the sand.

But that's not how it works. Private schools tell parents at the beginning of the school year that a new contract will not be offered in the spring for the following year. It is explicit, there is no wishy-washy language, and it is typically in writing.

The article does not mention this, only the subtle hints 4-5 years earlier and then the lack of contract in February.

Here's how I'm thinking this played out: admin wanted the kid gone, but teachers + parent did not agree. Kid kept getting decent progress reports from the teachers (helped along by his supports) and no disciplinary issues, therefore the parents were expecting to continue. The admin didn't put anything in writing, so as to not upset the rich grandfather. Once the elder brother was far enough into HS, the school admins knew they could dump the young brother without the older brother withdrawing since he was too far along in HS tenure to withdraw from the school + his friends in the aftermath of the pandemic.

It's a very shady situation. There's probably more to the story than what's in the article, but I also wouldn't pull my kid out of the school given its focus on the arts and individualized education. The kid didn't need special ed.

As a long time private school employee, I can't envision a scenario where this would happen. Why would the admin want to counsel a kid out if the teachers wanted him to stay and felt they could support his needs? It's usually the other way around-- teachers want the school to counsel kids out because they feel they can't meet their needs, but admin is hesitant to do so. Much more likely that the teachers have been saying this year after year, and admin dragged their feet before finally pulling the trigger.

Explain this:

In the two years since Ellis’s death, his parents have turned the circumstances over in their heads again and again. Ellis had never been asked to repeat a class or been disciplined for behavioral issues. There was no grading structure in which he had failed. His midyear reports from eighth grade note his problems with writing and organization, but also his progress, and they praise him for his creative thinking and contributions to his classes.

I know we are only getting half the story here with this article, but a mid-year report in 8th grade is the perfect CYA opportunity for the school if they were going planning to withdraw his offer for the fall. That mid-year report should be brutal and it's not, per the author.

St. Ann's graduates around 80 kids per year: https://saintannsny.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/SchoolProfile22-23-final.pdf

Listen, EVERY progress report is going to note both strengths and weaknesses. Without seeing the reports, there is no way to know what the overall tenor of the report is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

We do know that the school sent the decline to enroll in February, which is too late to transfer elsewhere

I am in full agreement that they should have let the family know of the decline earlier, so that they could apply to privates specializing in kids with disabilities, if private is what they wanted. However, it is not accurate to say it was "too late to transfer elsewhere." Public school, which the vast majority of children in the US attend, and is legally required to provide accommodations, is always an option.

I live in NY. February is far too late for applying to publics (which is what we do here). That window closes before Christmas. The city would have placed him at one of our 400 high schools with seats open - so not a great one. By February, families would have missed out doing all the crazy things we do here: rank schools maybe write an essay maybe take a test maybe audition and def tour the schools. The process is especially important for a family who will be ranking schools with a lot of support.

But what is a school to do if they have tried to counsel out FOR YEARS but the parents won't listen? There will inevitably come a year when the school will need step up and deny a contract for the upcoming school year. This almost always happens in the early spring at independents. We'll never know what really happened. The school could have said that he was not being offered a spot back in the fall, but the parents didn't truly believe it until they didn't get an actual contract in February.

My kids are at a rigorous private school that has counseled kids out. The process is up front and clear. Families are notified by phone call and letter, it’s explicit, and it is done very far in advance of any deadlines. The school sometimes makes contact with other schools they feel are a better fit for the family, if appropriate. It is a compassionate process, but it is also very, very clear.

This “tried to counsel out” is a bunch of ridiculous BS. There is no “try” when it comes to counseling out. Either you do, or you don’t. St. Ann’s didn’t. Frankly I think what the school did here is pretty horrifying. It doesn’t have to be this way, and I am glad the family is suing. I don’t think the family will win, but I hope the school’s shady practices are exposed to the world in the process.

St. Ann's is going to settle, because whatever the family finds through discovery will probably be pretty awful from a PR perspective. I'm betting the family already knows about conflicting reports - i.e., teachers thinking the kid is doing OK all while the admin is pressuring teachers to document anything and everything about the kid.

The HOS just left his position, prior to the publication of the article. Why? Likely because whatever the board found ain't great. He's only in his early 60s, had been HOS for 12 years. He'd stick out until retirement.

Agreed. Both sides already know there are bad documents and facts here that will cast the school in a very unfavorable light. I think they will settle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

We do know that the school sent the decline to enroll in February, which is too late to transfer elsewhere

I am in full agreement that they should have let the family know of the decline earlier, so that they could apply to privates specializing in kids with disabilities, if private is what they wanted. However, it is not accurate to say it was "too late to transfer elsewhere." Public school, which the vast majority of children in the US attend, and is legally required to provide accommodations, is always an option.

I live in NY. February is far too late for applying to publics (which is what we do here). That window closes before Christmas. The city would have placed him at one of our 400 high schools with seats open - so not a great one. By February, families would have missed out doing all the crazy things we do here: rank schools maybe write an essay maybe take a test maybe audition and def tour the schools. The process is especially important for a family who will be ranking schools with a lot of support.

But what is a school to do if they have tried to counsel out FOR YEARS but the parents won't listen? There will inevitably come a year when the school will need step up and deny a contract for the upcoming school year. This almost always happens in the early spring at independents. We'll never know what really happened. The school could have said that he was not being offered a spot back in the fall, but the parents didn't truly believe it until they didn't get an actual contract in February.

My kids are at a rigorous private school that has counseled kids out. The process is up front and clear. Families are notified by phone call and letter, it’s explicit, and it is done very far in advance of any deadlines. The school sometimes makes contact with other schools they feel are a better fit for the family, if appropriate. It is a compassionate process, but it is also very, very clear.

This “tried to counsel out” is a bunch of ridiculous BS. There is no “try” when it comes to counseling out. Either you do, or you don’t. St. Ann’s didn’t. Frankly I think what the school did here is pretty horrifying. It doesn’t have to be this way, and I am glad the family is suing. I don’t think the family will win, but I hope the school’s shady practices are exposed to the world in the process.

St. Ann's is going to settle, because whatever the family finds through discovery will probably be pretty awful from a PR perspective. I'm betting the family already knows about conflicting reports - i.e., teachers thinking the kid is doing OK all while the admin is pressuring teachers to document anything and everything about the kid.

The HOS just left his position, prior to the publication of the article. Why? Likely because whatever the board found ain't great. He's only in his early 60s, had been HOS for 12 years. He'd stick out until retirement.

Agreed. Both sides already know there are bad documents and facts here that will cast the school in a very unfavorable light. I think they will settle.

This is a wealthy, well connected family with nothing to lose. Your basic nightmare for St Ann's. They won't settle - unless by settling you mean setting up at least the appearance of an inclusive educational program with supports for kids like theirs

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I read the article from another source. The 13 year old boy's suicide occurred 3 months after he was dismissed/counseled out of the school.

The school made the family aware of the student's condition 5 years earlier and informed the parents that the school could not help.

The article did not mention whether or not the boy's parents placed him in counseling with a qualified therapist.

There are at least two sides to every story. The press lies to sensationalize anything that it can about elite private schools. I know this from being a first-hand observer to what happened to the head of school at an elite New England private school.

The scant account in the newspaper probably was sourced from the plaintiff's lawsuit filing. I assure you that the defendant school's response will paint a different picture and enlighten us all. As it is, just based on the plaintiff's lawsuit filing, there isn't much substance to any claim against St. Ann's, but I will withhold my opinion until the defendant files a response followed by any further response to the defendant's answer by the plaintiff.

This. Lawsuit driving the narrative

[Anonymous]

The newspaper is gross for telling such a salacious story. Someone may have pitched it.

Or there was space i that day’s paper to finally slide in this story -one they the journalist had ready to go— for whatever reason

[Anonymous]

One more:

Private schools get shake downs all the time
Easy target bc of the reputation value they hold dear

[Anonymous]

I wonder why the family chose a NJ-based firm vs a NY one (I know they are NY barred). I know of one of the attorneys socially - he is a good guy and smart, but this is definitely not his usual practice area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The newspaper is gross for telling such a salacious story. Someone may have pitched it.

Or there was space i that day’s paper to finally slide in this story -one they the journalist had ready to go— for whatever reason

Huh? The family likely reached out. They agreed to multiple interviews and photographs in their personal home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I wonder why the family chose a NJ-based firm vs a NY one (I know they are NY barred). I know of one of the attorneys socially - he is a good guy and smart, but this is definitely not his usual practice area.

Maybe the family tried to hire a NYC based firm, but the law firms declined to take the case.

[Anonymous]

I think counseling out a kid who has been their for years, with sib enrolled, who doesn’t have behavioral issues, is a real sh*t move for a school — unless it is truly focused on high academic achievement and rigor — which face it, most privates are not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think counseling out a kid who has been their for years, with sib enrolled, who doesn’t have behavioral issues, is a real sh*t move for a school — unless it is truly focused on high academic achievement and rigor — which face it, most privates are not.

Unless they genuinely believed he would be better served at another school with the supports he needed?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think counseling out a kid who has been their for years, with sib enrolled, who doesn’t have behavioral issues, is a real sh*t move for a school — unless it is truly focused on high academic achievement and rigor — which face it, most privates are not.

Unless they genuinely believed he would be better served at another school with the supports he needed?

If this child was already behind academically then he's only going to struggle in HS. He clearly would be better served at a different school that could meet his mental health and learning disabilities.