Anonymous wrote:I agree, 10:13. Change has to come from within and from without. It can't be done without all sides pitching in. To those posters to appear to not acknowledge a problem, I don't understand where you are coming from. And, to not acknowledge the problem isn't doing the portion of the African American community that's under siege any favors. Folks shouldn't have to live that like and if it takes a strong push for personal responsibility to make some headway, then push. The OP's wording of the post was tacky, to be sure, but so is "I'm so liberal that I don't even see a pervasive problem."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree, 10:13. Change has to come from within and from without. It can't be done without all sides pitching in. To those posters to appear to not acknowledge a problem, I don't understand where you are coming from. And, to not acknowledge the problem isn't doing the portion of the African American community that's under siege any favors. Folks shouldn't have to live that like and if it takes a strong push for personal responsibility to make some headway, then push. The OP's wording of the post was tacky, to be sure, but so is "I'm so liberal that I don't even see a pervasive problem."

But where does the line of responsibility fall? As I asked above, do you think that the grandmother who lives five doors down from the shooters is part of the problem? If not, what about the grandmother who lives three doors down? Next door? The men's own grandmothers? But how can you tell whether they were enablers or the people who tried hardest to steer these men right?

Sure, the men who did this have bad, bad values. But what percentage of their community do you think shares those values? Your "under seige" comment seems to imply that you think there are some people in the neighborhood of these shootings who aren't responsible. What percentage of the population would that be?

Can you be clearer about who, exactly, needs to change?

Anonymous wrote:

It makes me so angry when people refuse to take responsibility for problems in their society, and instead relegate it the domain of others. If you are so concerned about these young men growing up with better values so that they don't go killing innocent bystanders, why don't you devote some of your time to mentoring some of the kids who grow up in these neighborhoods? No, because it's easier to blame it all on the government's 'hand-outs' and taxes than it is to get off your ass and do something about the problem by doing your part and giving back to the community. (And saying that you give money to charity is like the government giving hand-outs. We need community action and involvement, not just throwing money at the problem. So yes, there I agree with you. But you assume that members of the black community don't do that and only ask for hand-outs and defend those who do. Have you checked the listing of locally-run community services offered in the SE area? It's a long list and challenges your assumption that black leaders and members of the community don't get involved)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It makes me so angry when people refuse to take responsibility for problems in their society, and instead relegate it the domain of others. If you are so concerned about these young men growing up with better values so that they don't go killing innocent bystanders, why don't you devote some of your time to mentoring some of the kids who grow up in these neighborhoods? No, because it's easier to blame it all on the government's 'hand-outs' and taxes than it is to get off your ass and do something about the problem by doing your part and giving back to the community. (And saying that you give money to charity is like the government giving hand-outs. We need community action and involvement, not just throwing money at the problem. So yes, there I agree with you. But you assume that members of the black community don't do that and only ask for hand-outs and defend those who do. Have you checked the listing of locally-run community services offered in the SE area? It's a long list and challenges your assumption that black leaders and members of the community don't get involved)

Now wait a minute. First you say people need to go mentor poor kids in SE. Then you say that there's a long list of community services already offered. You say it's easy to blame the government's hand-outs (for creating the attitudes, I assume? not sure), but then you suggest that we hand out our time.

My parents worked and valued education. I work, and value education. My children, god willing, will work, and value education. I have to assume the shooters' mothers or grandmothers told them their whole lives to stay away from drugs and guns and violent neighbor kids. When respect for elders is so totally absent, and when attitudes regarding work (a sucker's game) and education ("acting white") are so entrenched, what's a white, educated, working outsider like me to do? Assuming I wanted to do anything. I don't, not really. I've got my own kids to raise.

Anonymous wrote: Assuming I wanted to do anything. I don't, not really. I've got my own kids to raise.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: Assuming I wanted to do anything. I don't, not really. I've got my own kids to raise.

So then don't do anything except raise your kids. But stop participating in threads on the topic as well.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: Assuming I wanted to do anything. I don't, not really. I've got my own kids to raise.

So then don't do anything except raise your kids. But stop participating in threads on the topic as well.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Now wait a minute. First you say people need to go mentor poor kids in SE. Then you say that there's a long list of community services already offered. You say it's easy to blame the government's hand-outs (for creating the attitudes, I assume? not sure), but then you suggest that we hand out our time.

My parents worked and valued education. I work, and value education. My children, god willing, will work, and value education. I have to assume the shooters' mothers or grandmothers told them their whole lives to stay away from drugs and guns and violent neighbor kids. When respect for elders is so totally absent, and when attitudes regarding work (a sucker's game) and education ("acting white") are so entrenched, what's a white, educated, working outsider like me to do? Assuming I wanted to do anything. I don't, not really. I've got my own kids to raise.

I didn't say people 'need' to go mentor poor kids in SE. But if you're going to act so concerned about the problem in our community, then do something about it instead of sitting on your ass and complaining about it. I do have my own kids to raise, but I care about those people beyond my direct family, and find the time to mentor kids. I feel I should do my part to build a better community.

Yes, there are services offered, but they're not enough! You really need to get out and understand some of the problems that exist out there, and see the unfortunate lives and circumstances some people are born into!!

Throwing money at a problem is VERY different to giving your time. I'm surprised that you don't understand that crucial difference. And your failure to understand that leads me to think that there is absolutely no point in discussing this with you because you will never understand.

Why do you assume that the shooters' mothers or grandmothers told them to stay away from drugs and guns? There are too many kids who grow up with parents who are physically and emotionally absent: they are working various jobs and aren't at home, leaving the kids to fend for themselves and find their own dinner, or they are addicted to drugs and provide no kind of support to their children. I know, because I mentor several kids and have seen these cases.

And some may regard work as a sucker's game and education as acting white, but I think that's a minority (though a highly visible one). I agree that it is unfortunate that such attitudes are entrenched among certain members of our community, but that's not a valid reason to dismiss all those who lives in poor, black neighborhoods as bringing the problems onto themselves. I think that's really unfair of you.

And you may not find the time to give back to the community because you are busy raising your own kids (fair enough), I hope that you will think twice after this discussion we've had here and raise your children to be less judgmental than you've shown to be here. That in itself--trying to work on one's attitudes to be more empathetic, understanding, and informed about the problems that exist in the world--is a significant step forward.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It makes me so angry when people refuse to take responsibility for problems in their society, and instead relegate it the domain of others. If you are so concerned about these young men growing up with better values so that they don't go killing innocent bystanders, why don't you devote some of your time to mentoring some of the kids who grow up in these neighborhoods? No, because it's easier to blame it all on the government's 'hand-outs' and taxes than it is to get off your ass and do something about the problem by doing your part and giving back to the community. (And saying that you give money to charity is like the government giving hand-outs. We need community action and involvement, not just throwing money at the problem. So yes, there I agree with you. But you assume that members of the black community don't do that and only ask for hand-outs and defend those who do. Have you checked the listing of locally-run community services offered in the SE area? It's a long list and challenges your assumption that black leaders and members of the community don't get involved)

Now wait a minute. First you say people need to go mentor poor kids in SE. Then you say that there's a long list of community services already offered. You say it's easy to blame the government's hand-outs (for creating the attitudes, I assume? not sure), but then you suggest that we hand out our time.

My parents worked and valued education. I work, and value education. My children, god willing, will work, and value education. I have to assume the shooters' mothers or grandmothers told them their whole lives to stay away from drugs and guns and violent neighbor kids. When respect for elders is so totally absent, and when attitudes regarding work (a sucker's game) and education ("acting white") are so entrenched, what's a white, educated, working outsider like me to do? Assuming I wanted to do anything. I don't, not really. I've got my own kids to raise.