Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's do that last para again:

Bottom line: How does it promote understanding about what's going on in many moderate Muslim societies today, to leave people with the unmoderated statement that "Islam offers equality to women (again, a statement that one of you actually made), which is actually misleading in many contexts. And further, to claim that anybody who questions or doubts your statements about "Islam offers equality to women" is an "Islamophobe"?

I'm not afraid of the moderator. I disagree with him that defending underdogs means allowing any kind of BS you want to post to go completely unquestioned.

Ok, I have ignored you for a long time but you keep repeating the same thing over and over and use "equality" at each corner. So, let me be clear. Equality doesn't mean X=Y. Equality means that in the face of Divine Law, both men and women are equal, i-e Allah judge all of His servants according to their deeds, not according to their gender. Men & Women practice the 5 pillars of Islam the same way. There isn't a special Quran for men and a special Quran for females. Men and women have the same religious and moral duties and responsibilities. They both face the same consequences or rewards of their deeds. Both genders are entitled to equality before the law and courts of law. Justice is genderless.

Now, I already know what you are going to come back with. But a man can have 4 wives, a man's testimony is worth more than a woman's , women inherit less, yadi yadi yada, We've debated those over 20 pages in different threads, no need to rehash them once more. If you didn't get it then, you won't it now. It should be added that from an Islamic perspective, the roles of men and women are complementary and cooperative rather than competitive. Their roles and responsibilities in life are different because of their physical and emotional differences. We have different demands, different responsibilities ect. Righteousness determines the value of humans in Allah's sight. It is not their gender or race, if you can't get that, well I can't help it. No need to have the same discussion with the same arguments 1000x, really!

No, here's what I'm going to come back with:

The fault is yours, for using words like "equality" that, you must be aware, mean something completely, utterly, different to non-Muslim ears. And BTW, you do this again in the bolded passage above, when you say that this includes "legal equality" in an Islamic sense - but in fact this doesn't include the Western concepts of equality in the divorce courts, in terms of the worth of a woman's testimony in financial courts, or her inheritance rights in estate law.

I don't know if you deliberately omitted to explain the difference between your concept of "equality" and the Western idea of "equality" that you must know your readers are using as a reference point. Perhaps you assumed an explanation wasn't necessary.

However, are you really unable to see how your statements about "equality" would lead to 20 pages of clarification and quotes from the Quran and shariah, until we *finally* get to how your concept of "equality" differs from the Western idea of equality that everybody else here is using as a reference?

And why are we Islamophobes, just because you force us engage you for 20 pages before you finally spill the beans on your definition of equality?


These are some of the reasons we don't trust you or the other Muslim PP to "interpret" Islam for us.

Muslima wrote:
Really??? Why didn't you say that sooner??? I would have rolled out the red carpet for you I guess your studying under that "World expert of Islam" did not teach you much unfortunately, how sad!!!....Just so you know a lot of so called 'Terrorists" or "Extremists" also "studied" Islam with a "World expert" of Islam ( what does that even mean?? world expert of Islam....) but yeah, from now i guess you are the "Expert" on this....

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's do that last para again:

Bottom line: How does it promote understanding about what's going on in many moderate Muslim societies today, to leave people with the unmoderated statement that "Islam offers equality to women (again, a statement that one of you actually made), which is actually misleading in many contexts. And further, to claim that anybody who questions or doubts your statements about "Islam offers equality to women" is an "Islamophobe"?

I'm not afraid of the moderator. I disagree with him that defending underdogs means allowing any kind of BS you want to post to go completely unquestioned.

Ok, I have ignored you for a long time but you keep repeating the same thing over and over and use "equality" at each corner. So, let me be clear. Equality doesn't mean X=Y. Equality means that in the face of Divine Law, both men and women are equal, i-e Allah judge all of His servants according to their deeds, not according to their gender. Men & Women practice the 5 pillars of Islam the same way. There isn't a special Quran for men and a special Quran for females. Men and women have the same religious and moral duties and responsibilities. They both face the same consequences or rewards of their deeds. Both genders are entitled to equality before the law and courts of law. Justice is genderless.

Now, I already know what you are going to come back with. But a man can have 4 wives, a man's testimony is worth more than a woman's , women inherit less, yadi yadi yada, We've debated those over 20 pages in different threads, no need to rehash them once more. If you didn't get it then, you won't it now. It should be added that from an Islamic perspective, the roles of men and women are complementary and cooperative rather than competitive. Their roles and responsibilities in life are different because of their physical and emotional differences. We have different demands, different responsibilities ect. Righteousness determines the value of humans in Allah's sight. It is not their gender or race, if you can't get that, well I can't help it. No need to have the same discussion with the same arguments 1000x, really!

No, here's what I'm going to come back with:

The fault is yours, for using words like "equality" that, you must be aware, mean something completely, utterly, different to non-Muslim ears. And BTW, you do this again in the bolded passage above, when you say that this includes "legal equality" in an Islamic sense - but in fact this doesn't include the Western concepts of equality in the divorce courts, in terms of the worth of a woman's testimony in financial courts, or her inheritance rights in estate law.

I don't know if you deliberately omitted to explain the difference between your concept of "equality" and the Western idea of "equality" that you must know your readers are using as a reference point. Perhaps you assumed an explanation wasn't necessary.

However, are you really unable to see how your statements about "equality" would lead to 20 pages of clarification and quotes from the Quran and shariah, until we *finally* get to how your concept of "equality" differs from the Western idea of equality that everybody else here is using as a reference?

And why are we Islamophobes, just because you force us engage you for 20 pages before you finally spill the beans on your definition of equality?


These are some of the reasons we don't trust you or the other Muslim PP to "interpret" Islam for us.

Im not Muslima, I'm the other Muslim. I knew what she meant by using "equality," and now that shes clarifying, why don't you get off her back. And stop pretending that was the reason for the 20 pages. Even with her clarification, I suspect you will continue to post vile misfacts.

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:
Really??? Why didn't you say that sooner??? I would have rolled out the red carpet for you I guess your studying under that "World expert of Islam" did not teach you much unfortunately, how sad!!!....Just so you know a lot of so called 'Terrorists" or "Extremists" also "studied" Islam with a "World expert" of Islam ( what does that even mean?? world expert of Islam....) but yeah, from now i guess you are the "Expert" on this....

I liked my prof, this was at an American university before he was tapped for that post, so he's not UBL. And no, I don't feel like dragging his name through your special mudpit.

Suffice it to say that there are Muslims I trust to teach me about Islam. Including personal friends who are Muslims. But I would never trust you, with your track record of lies, insults and babyish antics, to even help me open a Quran.

Do your religion a favor and stop claiming that we need you to interpret it for us. (And hey, I thought Islam boasts it's more accessible than other religions because you can read the Quran without a cleric helping you interpret it?)

Anonymous wrote:Damn, you have a pretty big ego for attending American University.

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's do that last para again:

Bottom line: How does it promote understanding about what's going on in many moderate Muslim societies today, to leave people with the unmoderated statement that "Islam offers equality to women (again, a statement that one of you actually made), which is actually misleading in many contexts. And further, to claim that anybody who questions or doubts your statements about "Islam offers equality to women" is an "Islamophobe"?

I'm not afraid of the moderator. I disagree with him that defending underdogs means allowing any kind of BS you want to post to go completely unquestioned.

Ok, I have ignored you for a long time but you keep repeating the same thing over and over and use "equality" at each corner. So, let me be clear. Equality doesn't mean X=Y. Equality means that in the face of Divine Law, both men and women are equal, i-e Allah judge all of His servants according to their deeds, not according to their gender. Men & Women practice the 5 pillars of Islam the same way. There isn't a special Quran for men and a special Quran for females. Men and women have the same religious and moral duties and responsibilities. They both face the same consequences or rewards of their deeds. Both genders are entitled to equality before the law and courts of law. Justice is genderless.

Now, I already know what you are going to come back with. But a man can have 4 wives, a man's testimony is worth more than a woman's , women inherit less, yadi yadi yada, We've debated those over 20 pages in different threads, no need to rehash them once more. If you didn't get it then, you won't it now. It should be added that from an Islamic perspective, the roles of men and women are complementary and cooperative rather than competitive. Their roles and responsibilities in life are different because of their physical and emotional differences. We have different demands, different responsibilities ect. Righteousness determines the value of humans in Allah's sight. It is not their gender or race, if you can't get that, well I can't help it. No need to have the same discussion with the same arguments 1000x, really!

No, here's what I'm going to come back with:

The fault is yours, for using words like "equality" that, you must be aware, mean something completely, utterly, different to non-Muslim ears. And BTW, you do this again in the bolded passage above, when you say that this includes "legal equality" in an Islamic sense - but in fact this doesn't include the Western concepts of equality in the divorce courts, in terms of the worth of a woman's testimony in financial courts, or her inheritance rights in estate law.

I don't know if you deliberately omitted to explain the difference between your concept of "equality" and the Western idea of "equality" that you must know your readers are using as a reference point. Perhaps you assumed an explanation wasn't necessary.

However, are you really unable to see how your statements about "equality" would lead to 20 pages of clarification and quotes from the Quran and shariah, until we *finally* get to how your concept of "equality" differs from the Western idea of equality that everybody else here is using as a reference?

And why are we Islamophobes, just because you force us engage you for 20 pages before you finally spill the beans on your definition of equality?

These are some of the reasons we don't trust you or the other Muslim PP to "interpret" Islam for us.

??kwäl?d?/
noun
noun: equality
the state of being equal, especially in status, rights, and opportunities.
"an organization aiming to promote racial equality"
synonyms: fairness, equal rights, equal opportunities, equity, e

Anonymous wrote:

Go ask your Muslim friends you trust for answers. Why ask Muslima? You just got through saying you don't trust her word. More proof that all you want is to pick fights and vilify Islam.

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Reformatting my earlier post to make it clear to everyone how you define Islamophobe.

****

No, you made that up. I never, ever said the vast majority of Muslims are not peaceful. Your friend the moderator can verify. In fact I think the vast majority ARE peaceful.

Ergo, I never painted anyone with a broad brush. Ergo, I am not an Islamophobe.

Unless--according to one of your many other definitions of Islamophobia--it's Islamophobic to fail to agree that women's limited divorce, testimony and inheritance rights constitute "equal justice" for women and are in society's best interest.

Or unless, according to another one of your definitions of Islamophobia, it was Islamophobic to participate among the many other posters who cited Quranic verses and shariah against your personal interpretations of divorce and other laws, or who challenged you over maybe 10 pages (ten pages!) to provide stats backing up your conversion claims. I'm definitely a stickler for cites, legal rulings and stats as a way to understand what's going on in the rest of the world. I don't trust you enough to take your word on the weather, at this point. Sorry.

******

And a few more points. I studied Islam with a world expert on Islam, who went on to be president of a major university in the Middle East.

On the other hand, most of us don't trust you to interpret Islam as far as we can throw you. Let's look at your multiple lies (I haven't used that word so far, but I will now) on merely secular issues:
- your attempts to spin conversations,
- your insistence that you are arguing with a single person,
- your nonsense about converts to Islam exceeding immigrants. Even though *your own numbers* showed that was a ridiculously false claim, you STILL insisted it was true for pages afterwards. (Unbelievable.)
- when you told us you lived in Falls Church and the ride-on to the metro took two hours.

It doesn't help that, besides being caught in lies, you also come off as having the maturity of a 12-year-old. Nor do you have the self restraint to drop issues you should be able to foresee you will lose.

Sorry, but there are several of us who will challenge statements like "Islam gives a good deal to female captives" or "Islam provides equal rights to women" or "converts exceed immigrants."

Signed, poster you called angry bad cook, with the spouse who wants to divorce her, the kid who is into drugs and porn, and who secretly wants to convert to Islam

Really??? Why didn't you say that sooner??? I would have rolled out the red carpet for you I guess your studying under that "World expert of Islam" did not teach you much unfortunately, how sad!!!....Just so you know a lot of so called 'Terrorists" or "Extremists" also "studied" Islam with a "World expert" of Islam ( what does that even mean?? world expert of Islam....) but yeah, from now i guess you are the "Expert" on this....

Hahaha Glad you're back, Muslima. Now I'm curious, who this world class expert on Islam was. Was it osama bin laden?

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:
Really??? Why didn't you say that sooner??? I would have rolled out the red carpet for you I guess your studying under that "World expert of Islam" did not teach you much unfortunately, how sad!!!....Just so you know a lot of so called 'Terrorists" or "Extremists" also "studied" Islam with a "World expert" of Islam ( what does that even mean?? world expert of Islam....) but yeah, from now i guess you are the "Expert" on this....

I liked my prof, this was at an American university before he was tapped for that post, so he's not UBL. And no, I don't feel like dragging his name through your special mudpit.

Suffice it to say that there are Muslims I trust to teach me about Islam. Including personal friends who are Muslims. But I would never trust you, with your track record of lies, insults and babyish antics, to even help me open a Quran.

Do your religion a favor and stop claiming that we need you to interpret it for us. (And hey, I thought Islam boasts it's more accessible than other religions because you can read the Quran without a cleric helping you interpret it?)

Anonymous wrote:You're right. I misread. Name the uni then. Top universities have well educated professors. Your posts belie your education.

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Reformatting my earlier post to make it clear to everyone how you define Islamophobe.

****

No, you made that up. I never, ever said the vast majority of Muslims are not peaceful. Your friend the moderator can verify. In fact I think the vast majority ARE peaceful.

Ergo, I never painted anyone with a broad brush. Ergo, I am not an Islamophobe.

Unless--according to one of your many other definitions of Islamophobia--it's Islamophobic to fail to agree that women's limited divorce, testimony and inheritance rights constitute "equal justice" for women and are in society's best interest.

Or unless, according to another one of your definitions of Islamophobia, it was Islamophobic to participate among the many other posters who cited Quranic verses and shariah against your personal interpretations of divorce and other laws, or who challenged you over maybe 10 pages (ten pages!) to provide stats backing up your conversion claims. I'm definitely a stickler for cites, legal rulings and stats as a way to understand what's going on in the rest of the world. I don't trust you enough to take your word on the weather, at this point. Sorry.

******

And a few more points. I studied Islam with a world expert on Islam, who went on to be president of a major university in the Middle East.

On the other hand, most of us don't trust you to interpret Islam as far as we can throw you. Let's look at your multiple lies (I haven't used that word so far, but I will now) on merely secular issues:
- your attempts to spin conversations,
- your insistence that you are arguing with a single person,
- your nonsense about converts to Islam exceeding immigrants. Even though *your own numbers* showed that was a ridiculously false claim, you STILL insisted it was true for pages afterwards. (Unbelievable.)
- when you told us you lived in Falls Church and the ride-on to the metro took two hours.

It doesn't help that, besides being caught in lies, you also come off as having the maturity of a 12-year-old. Nor do you have the self restraint to drop issues you should be able to foresee you will lose.

Sorry, but there are several of us who will challenge statements like "Islam gives a good deal to female captives" or "Islam provides equal rights to women" or "converts exceed immigrants."

Signed, poster you called angry bad cook, with the spouse who wants to divorce her, the kid who is into drugs and porn, and who secretly wants to convert to Islam

Really??? Why didn't you say that sooner??? I would have rolled out the red carpet for you I guess your studying under that "World expert of Islam" did not teach you much unfortunately, how sad!!!....Just so you know a lot of so called 'Terrorists" or "Extremists" also "studied" Islam with a "World expert" of Islam ( what does that even mean?? world expert of Islam....) but yeah, from now i guess you are the "Expert" on this....

Hahaha Glad you're back, Muslima. Now I'm curious, who this world class expert on Islam was. Was it osama bin laden?

I am also curious about the so called World class expert on Islam, which we both know shall remain nameless.... But hey, I'd even be ready to take off my burqa and do the monkey dance, Gangnam Style if he is named

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:
Really??? Why didn't you say that sooner??? I would have rolled out the red carpet for you I guess your studying under that "World expert of Islam" did not teach you much unfortunately, how sad!!!....Just so you know a lot of so called 'Terrorists" or "Extremists" also "studied" Islam with a "World expert" of Islam ( what does that even mean?? world expert of Islam....) but yeah, from now i guess you are the "Expert" on this....

I liked my prof, this was at an American university before he was tapped for that post, so he's not UBL. And no, I don't feel like dragging his name through your special mudpit.

Suffice it to say that there are Muslims I trust to teach me about Islam. Including personal friends who are Muslims. But I would never trust you, with your track record of lies, insults and babyish antics, to even help me open a Quran.

Do your religion a favor and stop claiming that we need you to interpret it for us. (And hey, I thought Islam boasts it's more accessible than other religions because you can read the Quran without a cleric helping you interpret it?)

You have some deep trust issues....Repeat after me "Woossaaaa" 'Wossaaa" now take a big breath and let it go....Don't let them in, don't let them see.. Be the good girl you always have to be.Conceal, don't feel, don't let them know...Well, now they know! Let it go, let it go!!!!!!!!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Go ask your Muslim friends you trust for answers. Why ask Muslima? You just got through saying you don't trust her word. More proof that all you want is to pick fights and vilify Islam.

Forcing you to clarify what you mean by "equality" is much, much different from "vilifying Islam." Don't be such an @ss. Go read that Huffington article again.

Meanwhile, please explain why you think its OK that you and Muslima are tossing around words like "equality" that you know, you just know, are being misinterpreted by non-Muslim readers to mean equality as they know it.