Nurse-in at Hirshhorn on 2/12 from 10-12

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[Post New]02/05/2011 15:34
Anonymous
God, the poor security guard...you're all nuts.

How about protesting the fact that nearly 50 percent of DC schoolchildren go to bed hungry every night? Where's the outrage there? Where's the action plan?

[Post New]02/05/2011 15:46
TheWife
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Anonymous wrote:A nurse-in is aggressive. It is 'in your face.' The 'education' aspect is an excuse. There are much better ways to 'educate' people that there are laws on the books that allow breastfeeding in public that do not involve alienating people. WHY is that alienating? WHY does it make people uncomfortable? Who knows -- and who cares. It would be a lot easier to take the time and effort for a few people to learn to be discreet than it would take to change the attitudes and feelings of the majority of society.


What would the "excuse" behind the "education aspect" be? What reason would I, as a non-lactating mom, have to support breastfeeding mothers, other than a desire for the discrimination to end? While I do, indeed, enjoy looking at a nice breast once in a while, I sure as heck would rather do it without a baby attached.

Of course it's easier to teach a minority to change their behavior than to teach a majority to change their outlook. But that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. While people don't seem to like the comparison to other anti-discrimination causes, the comparison must be made in this case:

It would have been much easier for blacks to stay at the back of the bus, and learn to be happy with it, than to change the country's mindset and allow them equal freedom. Surely it would be easier for a homosexual to hide his sexuality, rather than convince a nation that he has the same rights that they do? For hundreds of years misogyny ruled -- and the status quo was acceptable to a lot of people, so why put forth the effort to ensure that women had equal rights? I'm not in a wheelchair. Why should I worry about whether someone who is will be treated fairly?

Every single person has a vested interest in seeing an end to discrimination, no matter what form that discrimination might take. If you're not a fighter or an activist, I certainly can't force you to be -- but someone must be one, and I've volunteered. While I'm not going to ask you to stand up with me, I would certainly ask that you not stand in my way.

Jennifer (aka "The Wife")
[Post New]02/05/2011 15:52
TheWife
Member Offline
Anonymous wrote:God, the poor security guard...you're all nuts.
How about protesting the fact that nearly 50 percent of DC schoolchildren go to bed hungry every night? Where's the outrage there? Where's the action plan?


That is another of my causes. I grew up very poor and empathize completely with the children suffering. I'm the first in the school to donate time and effort to helping needy children. However, that is a cause that a vast majority of people will happily get behind. One where it is simple and easy to garner support. My efforts are merely a drop in a bucket that many others are willing to help fill. But breastfeeding rights are important, too. Unfortunately it does not have the numbers to back it up that other causes do. And so some of us choose to support it -- because it should be supported.

As for the security guard... he's incidental. I don't know who he is or what his name is, and I have no animosity towards him (or the second guard). The "target" of the nurse-in, if you will, is the Smithsonian Institute, and the purpose is to ensure that all of their staff will protect the rights of their visitors. It bears repeating that this isn't personal.

Jennifer (aka "The Wife")
[Post New]02/05/2011 16:10
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
A nurse-in is aggressive. It is 'in your face.' The 'education' aspect is an excuse. There are much better ways to 'educate' people that there are laws on the books that allow breastfeeding in public that do not involve alienating people. WHY is that alienating? WHY does it make people uncomfortable? Who knows -- and who cares. It would be a lot easier to take the time and effort for a few people to learn to be discreet than it would take to change the attitudes and feelings of the majority of society.


I agree. I don't know why people are racists either. I don't care. It is far easier for black people to sit at the back of the bus than to try and change the feelings of the public.
[Post New]02/05/2011 16:14
Anonymous
Are all societal norms and expectations discrimination then?

And to the PPs who continue to say that anyone who believes that mothers who breastfeed in public should be discreet think breastfeeding is disgusting and need 'educating', I breastfed in public myself, discreetly, and if I couldn't have managed to do it discreetly then I wouldn't have done it. Most people can manage it just fine. Most people support breastfeeding. Most people think adapting to societal norms is important.

I support breastfeeding. I breastfed in public, discreetly. I support a woman's right to breastfeed in public. I am glad it is legal -- it should be. And I find the attitudes of the pro 'nurse-in' posters bizarre and off-putting and just plain obnoxious.
[Post New]02/05/2011 16:18
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:OK, just read all thirteen pages and still don't understand what you are so angry about. What is it about seeing a woman BF that makes you so uncomfortable that you feel you should be allowed to determine when and where she does it? Please tell me without inserting some type of religious 'morality' into the argument. As an educated person, what exactly is it that bothers you about seeing someone BFing? I'm really just curious here.


I find it hard to believe that you read 13 pages and this is what you came away with. No one is saying breastfeeding in public should be illegal because it makes people uncomfortable. And the poster who said there is no logical explanation for why it makes people uncomfortable, even though they were being snide, was right -- it's not logical, it's emotional. Most people find it weird and it makes them uncomfortable.

A nurse-in is aggressive. It is 'in your face.' The 'education' aspect is an excuse. There are much better ways to 'educate' people that there are laws on the books that allow breastfeeding in public that do not involve alienating people. WHY is that alienating? WHY does it make people uncomfortable? Who knows -- and who cares. It would be a lot easier to take the time and effort for a few people to learn to be discreet than it would take to change the attitudes and feelings of the majority of society.
At first I didn't understand why the nurse-in was still on after the museum apologized-then I read this response. Now I realize how terribly important it is. Someone who feels that BFing is alienating is in dire need of some education.


Breastfeeding is not alienating. A nurse-in is alienating. Did you bother to read the post? At all?

I wonder why so many straw men are used in this argument.
[Post New]02/05/2011 16:25
Anonymous
OK, let's say you're right, PP. Who decides what exactly 'discreet'? What standards should apply? How much breast can show-half, one third? What about the attractiveness of said breast? I guess any nipple showing would definitely be out of bounds but what about the baby's mouth? Should all nursing moms just bring along a tarp wherever they go? Is it OK to see the mom's head? Should the shoe department at Nordstroms be off limits because they have a nursing room there? Sears doesn't have a nursing room-does that mean that moms can BF right in the middle of the Craftsmen department? Your thoughts?
[Post New]02/05/2011 16:29
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:I breastfed in public myself, discreetly, and if I couldn't have managed to do it discreetly then I wouldn't have done it. Most people can manage it just fine. Most people support breastfeeding. Most people think adapting to societal norms is important.


But that's exactly the point. Not all women can be discrete, for various reasons, but that doesn't mean they or their babies should suffer because "society" has decided that breasts are sexual. Believe me, women don't want to bare their breasts to feed their babies if they don't have to, but sometimes covering up just isn't an option. And, frankly, I find the idea offensive. Every woman I have ever seen breastfeed has been as discrete as she believed she needed to be, and that's good enough for me. If anyone else has a problem, it's just that, their problem.

Remember, it was a societal norm to treat black people as property until brave people started to challenge it. Societal norms, sometimes, must be changed.
[Post New]02/05/2011 16:32
Anonymous
Ah, 16:18, the famous strawman poster! You're right this time, though. I probably should have referred to the first paragraph where this great thinker stated that people think BF is weird and makes them uncomfortable. And you're also right about one BF woman not being alienating (at least not alienating enough to keep her ass from getting kicked out the museum), but a whole bunch of them would be. It's hard to argue with logic like this.
[Post New]02/05/2011 16:51
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:Ah, 16:18, the famous strawman poster! You're right this time, though. I probably should have referred to the first paragraph where this great thinker stated that people think BF is weird and makes them uncomfortable. And you're also right about one BF woman not being alienating (at least not alienating enough to keep her ass from getting kicked out the museum), but a whole bunch of them would be. It's hard to argue with logic like this.


I am the poster you are referring to and I have never said 'straw man' before on DCUM. So trying to discredit my post by insinuating I always say that is just plain wrong -- unless you hear that a lot and are just sick of hearing it.

I'm won't bother correcting the second statement in bold, which also totally missed my point, because I don't want to pretend to have an intellectual exchange with someone who feels the need to insult my intelligence.
[Post New]02/05/2011 17:34
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:oficial facebook page of the event:


http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=187870741235066


Don't forget to take pictures. And please remember to tag them also.
[Post New]02/05/2011 18:50
Anonymous
You women attending the nurse in are all a bunch of freaks whose radical causes give breastfeeding mothers a bad name. And I am someone who breastfed my child for a year. I understand the multitude of benefits from breastfeeding for both baby and mommy but dont you realize that you are hurting the causes of breastfeeding benefits. If you just support the idea that breastfeeding can be done in public WHILE being discreet new and expectant mothers will be more willing to listen to the benefits of breastfeeding. You are equivalent to those animal rights activists who commit radical acts all in the name of animals. Good luck with your nurse in.
[Post New]02/05/2011 19:22
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:You women attending the nurse in are all a bunch of freaks whose radical causes give breastfeeding mothers a bad name. And I am someone who breastfed my child for a year. I understand the multitude of benefits from breastfeeding for both baby and mommy but dont you realize that you are hurting the causes of breastfeeding benefits. If you just support the idea that breastfeeding can be done in public WHILE being discreet new and expectant mothers will be more willing to listen to the benefits of breastfeeding. You are equivalent to those animal rights activists who commit radical acts all in the name of animals. Good luck with your nurse in.


You are being nice, I compare them to the radical acts of pro-lifers.

The Hirshhorn has apologized and there is no need to make fools of yourselves. But, by all means, please do so, because this will help repeal the breastfeding in public laws. From the bottom of my heart, I thank you.
[Post New]02/05/2011 19:32
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:God, the poor security guard...you're all nuts.

How about protesting the fact that nearly 50 percent of DC schoolchildren go to bed hungry every night? Where's the outrage there? Where's the action plan?



Don't you understand that they are exhibionists and publicity hounds. A few of them will be invited to the Today show, Good Morning America, Oprah, and this will be their 15 minutes of fame. These women refuse to take into consideration the long-term ramifications of their action. This is a Federal building and DC law does not apply. Probbly, a very good case could be made that Fed. law may not apply in museums because of the potential from squirting breast milk on priceless works of art. Why is discretion so onerous to nursing mothers? Please make fools of yourselves because the country needs a good laugh.
[Post New]02/05/2011 19:43
TheWife
Member Offline
Anonymous wrote:Are all societal norms and expectations discrimination then?

And to the PPs who continue to say that anyone who believes that mothers who breastfeed in public should be discreet think breastfeeding is disgusting and need 'educating', I breastfed in public myself, discreetly, and if I couldn't have managed to do it discreetly then I wouldn't have done it. Most people can manage it just fine. Most people support breastfeeding. Most people think adapting to societal norms is important.

I support breastfeeding. I breastfed in public, discreetly. I support a woman's right to breastfeed in public. I am glad it is legal -- it should be. And I find the attitudes of the pro 'nurse-in' posters bizarre and off-putting and just plain obnoxious.


I'm wondering how many of you realize that this is not an issue of "discreet" vs. "indiscreet" breastfeeding? I would ask if you read the article I posted a link to (http://www.myrna.info/2009/02/i-rock-too.html), but given my blog stats and referral history, it's clear that no one has bothered to. So, I'll state it here: When I was approached at IKEA about breastfeeding my son, I was doing so quite discreetly. In fact, not one fraction of my breast was exposed in any way. However, it is still relatively easy to distinguish when someone is breastfeeding, and the salesman who approached me figured it out. When he asked me to move, I explained that I did not have to and was within my rights. He let me be at that point. What did I do? I spoke to the manager and sent an email to the company. They responded back appropriately and politely. I did not organize a nurse-in because the situation and the response did not warrant it. In this instance, the security guard did not follow the law even when advised of it. When Nori did not do as he asked, he approached her a second time. When, despite the law, she still did not comply with his wishes, he had another security guard attempt to intimidate her. They made her so uncomfortable that she felt she had to leave. See the difference in the circumstances? The salesman at IKEA responded appropriately when advised of the law. My contact with IKEA was not to get him in trouble, and I never even bothered to learn his name. It was solely about allowing the company to enforce not just the law, but its own policy. If the Hirshhorn museum, or the Smithsonian in general, adequately trained their staff about appropriate behavior (and the law) then the first guard would not have approached her and the second one would have refused to. One person being ignorant of the law and policy is a fluke. Two is indicative of a problem that needs to be addressed, and this is a very good opportunity to do so.

Now, you've asked a question about societal norms vs. discrimination. "Societal norms" are "the behavioral expectations and cues within a society or group. This sociological term has been defined as 'the rules that a group uses for appropriate and inappropriate values, beliefs, attitudes and behaviors.' These rules may be explicit or implicit,""rules or standards of behavior shared by members of a social group," "rules developed by a group of people that specify how people must, should, may, should not, and must not behave in various situations."

Based on the very understanding and definition of societal norms, something that is legally protected is an accepted societal norm. If, as one prior poster wrote, "most people support breastfeeding," then it is not only a legally protected right, but a socially accepted right as well. In which case, there is no issue whether or not it "should" be allowed -- it is, and is accepted as such. The reality, of course, is that it isn't truly accepted, as evidenced by the reactions in this thread. It is accepted so long as it falls into a narrow and arbitrary definition of "discreet," or so long as it is done in a specific area in a specific manner. The fact that a mother using a bottle would not have been asked to move, the fact that a woman wearing a tank top (ie showing much more skin than a mother nursing her child, discreetly or not) would not be asked to cover, is illustrative of how "discrimination" is an appropriately used term. The discrimination is when "distinction" is made "in favor of or against a person or thing" based on the "group, class, or category to which the person or thing belongs" (ie breastfeeding mothers), "rather than according to actual merit" (appropriateness of the actions, legality of the situation, rights allowed), which are all part of the very definition of "discrimination" -- ergo the word applies and the actions are indicative of it. The simple fact is, a socially and legally accepted action was targeted for disfavor, not based on whether it was appropriate or inappropriate, but based on the personal preference of the observer, despite being socially acceptable.

Lastly, I must say, I rather think I've been insulted. Pray tell, when have I been obnoxious? What is "bizarre" about what I've said? When have I been "off-putting"? Personally, I have found posters on both sides of the issue who fit that description, but I have tried very hard to be as polite as possible in this conversation. My husband, who acts as my conscience in most situations, has assured me that none of my posts could be considered confrontational, rude or insulting. I trust his opinion.

Jennifer (aka "The Wife)
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