Anonymous wrote:I am a Christian minister with a very, very different viewpoint on the Genesis stories. I'm not going to type out a sermon on something so easy to Google. However, for those of you struggling with the idea of Adam and Eve, punishment, good and evil, the fall, etc... I would encourage you to consider that like so many stories in sacred scripture, these should be read metaphorically. There was no Adam or Eve or snake. The story wasn't meant to be read as history. We all know the story of the Boy Who Cried Wolf. We understand the meaning of the story. But we know it wasn't meant as a study of wolf behavior. Bible stories have much deeper meaning when read with that awareness.

I agree.

A metaphor for what?

Further.

Tell us why Christianity change the moral of the Eden story from the elevation that the Jews wrote into the story to the fall twist that Christianity wrote into it.

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/20/comparative-theodicy/

Can I take it that you think Jesus is also a metaphor, and tell us what the metaphor represents?

Regards
DL

Anonymous wrote:You can believe whatever you wish and I can agree or disagree civilly. Even passionately.

But you call God a murdering prick?

Ok, I have more intelligence than to engage on that level.

No you do not as you are not able to count the bodies and agree.

https://vimeo.com/7038401

You can run but you cannot hide from facts.

Regards
DL

Anonymous wrote:

GnosticChristianBishop wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:1). Because of the sacrifice of Christ, God sees only the righteousness of Christ when He looks at us. Our sin has been nailed to the cross with Jesus, and we will never be punished for it.

Spoken like a true immoral coward who would let another suffer for his unrighteousness while ignoring what Jesus taught.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Regards
DL

The scriptures you quoted are referring to the fact that God does not punish children for the sins of their parents.

1 John 2:25
http://biblehub.com/1_john/2-25.htm

Jesus promises us eternal life.

“And this is what he promised us—eternal life.”

Hiding behind your supernatural shield and closing your mind shows how much you fear the truth. Grow some stones and do what Jesus really taught.

Modern Gnostic Christians name our God "I am", and yes, we do mean ourselves.

You are your controller. I am mine. You represent and present whatever mind picture you have of your God or ideal human, and so do I.

The name "I Am" you might see as meaning something like, --- I think I have grown up thanks to having forced my apotheosis through Gnosis and meditation.

In Gnostic Christianity, we follow the Christian tradition that lazy Christians have forgotten that they are to do. That is, become brethren to Jesus.

That is why some say that the only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian.

Here is the real way Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded

Joseph Campbell shows the same esoteric ecumenist idea in this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGx4IlppSgU

The bible just plainly says to put away the things of children. The supernatural.

Regards
DL

Anonymous wrote:In the first place, death was not part of God's creation. Adam was created to be eternal – not, as some have mistakenly claimed, immortal since 1 Timothy 6:15-16 tells us: "He who is … King of kings and Lord of lords who alone has immortality." God placed Adam in the Garden of Eden and, on that first Friday, invited him to eat the fruit of any tree except "the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil … for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die" [Genesis 2:15-17]. Neither Adam nor Eve died on the day they ate the forbidden fruit but rather Scripture records that Adam died at the age of 930 years [Genesis 5:5]. The traditional explanation is an appeal to 2 Peter 3:8: "With the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." None of the pre-flood patriarchs lived more than a thousand years – thus, they all died within one of God's "days."

http://www.creationmoments.com/content/did-adam-really-live-930-years

I don’t get the whole “God murdered Adam and Eve.” If that’s your view, okee dokee.

If locking away what would have kept them alive was not murder by neglect, then what would you call it?

If death was not a party of God's plan, then you are saying that man is powerful enough to screw up God's plan.

You show how little faith you have in your genocidal son murdering prick of a God that you have judged to be good, somehow.

Justify your position.

Regards
DL

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, because God knew in advance they would fail his "test" and he gave it to them anyway, so he must have done it solely to sate his desire to punish.

He didn’t know. He gave them a choice. They chose.

What? I thought god was all-knowing? There was something he didn't know?

He knew, but didn’t force them to make the wrong choice. Adam and Eve weren’t robots.

They chose. Free will.

You cannot make a free willed choice without knowing good and evil as you would not know what you are choosing or even have the desire required to choose freely.

You might want to think before opening your mouth.

Eve was correct in eating of the tree of knowledge and rejecting God.

It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

This indicates that Jesus had no choice.

If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

This then begs the question.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

Only an insane and immoral God. That’s who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women. They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.

------------------------

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature, then the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts and natures he put in us would be quite wrong.


Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."


Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.

Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.

Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

Regards
DL

-----------------------
Evolutionary theology.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXOvYn1OAL0&list=UUDXjzOeZRqLxhYaaEhWLb_A&index=9

Anonymous wrote:“There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:1). Because of the sacrifice of Christ, God sees only the righteousness of Christ when He looks at us. Our sin has been nailed to the cross with Jesus, and we will never be punished for it.

Spoken like a true immoral coward who would let another suffer for his unrighteousness while ignoring what Jesus taught.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Regards
DL

Anonymous wrote:No, because God knew in advance they would fail his "test" and he gave it to them anyway, so he must have done it solely to sate his desire to punish.

I agree that reading this myth literally must lead to that conclusion.

The Jews interpreted the same myth as man's elevation and not his fall.

They value what God said. They have become as Gods in the knowing of good and evil.

I see nothing wrong with that. Do you?

Regards
DL

Anonymous wrote:

It wasn’t the tree of “knowledge.” It was the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

It is the tree of all knowledge. Name anything that is not subject to good and or evil.

I have asked that a number of times and only the poor thinkers ever reply with things that are easily refuted.


The snake told Eve if she ate of it, she would be as smart as God, a God herself. She didn’t eat it to “get an education,” she ate of it to elevate herself to God’s level.

Genesis 3:5
5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Knowing good and evil was not a positive thing for Adam and Eve; rather, it served as the entry of sin into humanity. Now, all people sin and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23), and we all live under the twin curse of sin and death (Romans 6:23). “Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!” (Romans 7:24–25; cf. John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8–9).

I know the myth and do not need to hear it from you.

The issue is God murdering A & E by neglect and locking away the tree of life just because they sought to not be as bright as bricks and without a moral sense.

Do you value your education and moral sense and should you be punished for trying to elevate both of those?

Regards
DL

Should the religious world thank the secular world for improving older religious law to the level of excellence we now enjoy?

If we grade secular law against theistic laws, I think we will agree that God’s laws are unjust when compared to the laws of most lands.

Three cheers for secular world and the world’s intelligentsia. They are the Gnostics of the world and their just laws prove it.

Regards
DL

Is the ongoing punishment of Adam and Eve justifiable?

Christian dogma says that Adam and Eve were murdered by neglect when God locked away the tree of life.

Eve was deceived by Satan and the talking serpent that God put in Eden. This caused the Original Sin concept that Christianity calls a happy fault and necessary to God’s plan.

Was gaining an education and a moral sense, which basically is what gaining knowledge is, justifiable to you?

Can you see yourself punishing your children for gaining an education and a moral sense the way God is punishing Adam and Eve to this day?

Regards
DL

Anonymous wrote:Then as now, Caesar will crucify your ass if you don't.

As it should do in our secular governments that do not want theistic laws.

Regards
DL

Anonymous wrote:I was always taught that "render unto Caesar" means that Christians are not exempted from following the law and paying taxes and all the other obligations of citizenship.

I've also heard it with a twist--once you accept the benefits of the secular government, you can't beg off your obligations by appealing to your religion. Henry David Thoreau wrote: "If you use money which has the image of Caesar on it, and which he has made current and valuable, that is, if you are men of the State, and gladly enjoy the advantages of Caesar's government, then pay him back some of his own when he demands it; "Render therefore to Caesar that which is Caesar's and to God those things which are God's" – leaving them no wiser than before as to which was which; for they did not wish to know."

A Mennonite wrote: "My perception of this incident is that Jesus does not answer the question about the morality of paying taxes to Caesar, but that he throws it back on the people to decide. When the Jews produce a denarius at Jesus' request, they demonstrate that they are already doing business with Caesar on Caesar's terms. I read Jesus' statement, "Give to Caesar…" as meaning "Have you incurred a debt in regard to Caesar! Then you better pay it off." The Jews had already compromised themselves. Likewise for us: we may refuse to serve Caesar as soldiers and even try to resist paying for Caesar's army. But the fact is that by our lifestyles we've run up a debt with Caesar, who has felt constrained to defend the interests that support our lifestyles. Now he wants paid back, and it's a little late to say that we don't owe anything. We've already compromised ourselves. If we're going to play Caesar's games, then we should expect to have to pay for the pleasure of their enjoyment."

So, if you are willing to participate in the system, which provides many benefits to you (currency, roads, schools, military protection, etc.) then you must fulfill your legal obligations under that system.

Well put.

Indeed.

Not only in cash but also in accepting the better law that secular law is as compared to God's barbaric laws.

Regards
DL

Anonymous wrote:You are not only a citizen of your church, you are a citizen of the state. Pay your damn taxes. That is all it means.

Indeed. I too dislike having to pay the shortfall in tax revenue the government give to the religious fraudsters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y1xJAVZxXg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjRy29R4gP8

Regards
DL

Anonymous wrote:

GnosticChristianBishop wrote:Give to Caesar. Why? Better law and justice?

Do you theists crave God’s law on earth, --- or do you think Jesus was saying that secular law was better?

Giving to Caesar includes loyalty and allegiance to the law of the land.

Jesus would not recommend an inferior justice system.

I guess that the choice is between God’s tyranny, --- and liberty to only follow the law, --- another tyranny, --- which has already negated any notion of freedom for man.

Is secular law inferior or superior to the laws of the Gods?

Regards
DL

We live in a religiously pluralistic society. To impose a religious law on such a society requires imposing a shared religious conception on it - such attempts have resulted in massive bloodshed (in the West, see the Thirty Years War, the English Civil War, etc) So for the sake of life and peace (religious values) we accept a secular concept of law.

Indeed, as we also know that that law is a lot better than theistic law.

The God of the earth, in terms of law, the important part of life, is now a secular God.

Three cheers. Right?

Regards
DL

Anonymous wrote:There's no such thing as a Gnostic Christian, and the snake on your profile shows who you serve. Christians are not under the law, but under grace, and God's grace is freedom, not tyranny. But nice try.

I see denial without argument against the premise.

Nice brain dead try.

Smart to stay anonymous. Dim bulbs should all be.

Regards
DL