Wizards and Caps could be moving to Potomac Yard

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a DC resident. I own two homes in DC. Can we just retrocession to MD now please?

I think I speak for all of Maryland when I say no thank you.

[Anonymous]

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lol. never thought I’d see the day but indeed. Nimby power, activate!

What’s more interesting is to see the YIMBYs against this. I would be careful making this a standard YIMBY/NIMBY issue.

But it is kind of amazing to watch the ALX YIMBYs get frazzled when it happens in THEIR backyard.

Having a few more neighbors is different than thousands of new people clogging up your streets and parking spaces.

Yes, I get that. It’s amazing how your views change when a proposal impacts your home and neighborhood.

If it’s not your BY then YIMBY/NIMBY is irrelevant.

Nope, not true. YIMBYs frequently tell NIMBYs that they have no say over what happens in their backyard.

Also YIMBY means yes in my backyard. Meaning you are a YES for it happening in your backyard.

They are a yes for it happening in their own backyard.

Except they are not in this case. I watched several fairly prolific or self-professed YIMBYs either express skepticism or outright objections to this proposal.

In other words, they were YIMBYs until it happened in their backyard. And the defense is that this isn’t something they signed up for - except isn’t that always the case with NIMBYs?

So my broader point is that it’s easy to be a YIMBY when the proposal does not impact you. Most people are actually NIMBYs under the right circumstances.

You can be a YIMBY to denser housing, mixed use development, more transit options, the new Virginia Tech campus….but still oppose an arena that’s going to bring in a massive amount of traffic on roads that are already too small for today.

YIMBYs don’t have to say “Yes” to every horrible idea.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As to Metro coverage, if one or two stops on the green line is sufficient for Nats Park and Audi Field, why do people believe that PY would be insufficient to handle crowds. I have not traversed the pedestrian bridge and that is one obvious choke point. Are there others?

As to PY, I recall the National Park Sevice being very protective of the views from the GW Parkway to the point that, from WMATA's view, the station placement is suboptimal. From what I've seen, the proposed stadium would be even more triggering of NPS's design veto. Is my recollection correct here? If so, has there been any questionin of/reaction from NPS?

The architects could easily bury half of the arena underground so as not to upset Park Service staff.

And the Metroway BRT already runs past mostly vacant office buildings in Crystal and Pentagon Cities with plenty of underground parking.

There’s a solution to all these logistical problems

Not for the $200M proposed. I know it sounds like a lot, but Alexandria can’t do BRT on less than 4 miles of Duke for $90M. And that includes the 1-2 miles where they aren’t even trying to do BRT; the road will stay as is.

[Anonymous]

Now that the Caps have cleared out of the market north of the Potomac, should the new NHL team be the Chesapeake Blue Crabs or the Baltimore Blue and Grey? Right off 95 on the water?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As I posted in the other thread, this is about the teams getting leverage so the DC Government will pony up a half billion dollars to renovate a 25 year old arena.

I can say based on texts with people in my friend groups that none of us in DC or MD would go to any games in the future.

I agree 100%. As a frequent attendee at Caps games, I certainly would attend fewer games if the games were held in PY. The current location is highly convenient for me, whether I drive or take Metro. The idea of attending a weekday game at PY has zero appeal.

+1 close-in MoCo. Our jobs are not downtown.

We would drop from a dozen Caps games a year, typically weeknights, to 1-2 weekend games at most. I am guessing the big $ these days is in the distro of broadcast and streaming rights (Monumental Sports owns the network), entertainment venue, and of course sports books. A drop in fan attendance might not hurt the bottom line as much going forward.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I live in Fairfax and have partial season tix to the Caps and Wiz and like that I can pay $15 to park ~ a block away and then be home in 35/40 minutes post game. Neither of those things are going to happen in PY so I will give up my tix and maybe go to a couple of games a year, well planned and on a weekend afternoon.

From the arena, you can take the bus rapid transit to car parks in Crystal City, Pentagon City, or Old Town.

Again, that is adding at least a half hour each way on a commute to the games as compared to Gallery Place. for most fans, it won't be worth the time. For many fans, it won't even be a viable option. I hope Ted assumes that everyone who lives in "Potomac Landing" and Del ray will be season ticket holders, because the existing fan bases won't put up with the additional hassle.

I live in upper NW and would gladly spend an extra 30 minutes in traffic rather than subject my family to what Chinatown has become.

lol you people are like Chicken Little.

The area around CapOne was a lot worse when it opened in the 90s and people showed up in droves.

I’m down there pretty frequently on the weekends and it’s fine. It’s the same buskers and homeless that have been down there for the past 15 years.

The big issue is that due to the lack of office workers and foot traffic, one notices the homeless a lot more. So perception becomes a warped sense of reality. But on game days, there are so many people and big crowds that it’s a lot less of an issue. There’s safety in numbers.

[Anonymous]

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lol. never thought I’d see the day but indeed. Nimby power, activate!

What’s more interesting is to see the YIMBYs against this. I would be careful making this a standard YIMBY/NIMBY issue.

But it is kind of amazing to watch the ALX YIMBYs get frazzled when it happens in THEIR backyard.

Having a few more neighbors is different than thousands of new people clogging up your streets and parking spaces.

Yes, I get that. It’s amazing how your views change when a proposal impacts your home and neighborhood.

If it’s not your BY then YIMBY/NIMBY is irrelevant.

Nope, not true. YIMBYs frequently tell NIMBYs that they have no say over what happens in their backyard.

Also YIMBY means yes in my backyard. Meaning you are a YES for it happening in your backyard.

They are a yes for it happening in their own backyard.

Except they are not in this case. I watched several fairly prolific or self-professed YIMBYs either express skepticism or outright objections to this proposal.

In other words, they were YIMBYs until it happened in their backyard. And the defense is that this isn’t something they signed up for - except isn’t that always the case with NIMBYs?

So my broader point is that it’s easy to be a YIMBY when the proposal does not impact you. Most people are actually NIMBYs under the right circumstances.

You can be a YIMBY to denser housing, mixed use development, more transit options, the new Virginia Tech campus….but still oppose an arena that’s going to bring in a massive amount of traffic on roads that are already too small for today.

YIMBYs don’t have to say “Yes” to every horrible idea.

Listen, our parking and roads are for everyone, per the city. Parking and traffic congestion on smaller roads are not an objection, as we learned during the zoning debate.

Also this proposal is theoretically likely to spurn denser housing (and maybe more contributions to our affordable housing fund), result in $200M for transit, and higher quality mixed use development.

[Anonymous]

I live near Potomac Yards, was curious and walked over to the site when the press conference was happening. I met all of the people shown in the photos, including the man and woman that seem to be circulating in several tweets and posts (including previously in this threead). The man has dark hair with a sign that read something like "no tax breaks for billionaires" and the woman's sign said "Housing not Hockey.

So those people were NOT together, they just happened to be there at the same time. She is 100% YIMBY and told me herself she is a Justin Wilson fan. That is why her sign mentions housing. She's happy with the zoning changes, and other things Justin has done in his tenure. The guy didnt' say if he's NIMBY or YIMBY but he doesnt want tax breaks for billionaires. Both were nice.

Photos show just the two of them, but when I got there around 9:05 there were a lot more people. There was the tall Moms against something and a bunch of people who were screaming profanity every time someone opened the tent door (like F Leonsis, F U Youngkin). So that doesn't strike me as a NIMBY kind of person.

After about 5 minutes of that the security brought another blue screened piece of fence to fully encase the tents so the protestors now couldn't see.

I left. I think so few people were there (maybe 15) because no one really knew about it. It is big news now but at the time a lot of people in the neighborhood had no idea this was happening. So because there was no lead time there wasn't time to mobilize.

This seems to be a come to Jesus moment for a lot of Alexandrians who've blinded followed Wilson and the city council policies and chastised any one with a different opinion. Now thy have to make a choice, do they continue doing whatever their leader says or do they actually take a stand?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The Caps will be fine. It's a good franchise. What they lose in MoCo and NW DC fans attending games, they'll make up with NoVa fans. I'm in MoCo near the DC line. We go to Caps game all the time. I cannot imagine trekking all the way to Potomac Yards for a weeknight game during rush hour. Not happening. But the Virginia fans will be there.

The Wizards are going to suffer. It's been a losing franchise forever with little hope of changing anytime soon. Most of their fan base - such as it is - is DC based. They are not going to Potomac Yards. You need a winning team for people to go through the inconveinience of going to Potomac Yards. It'll be a pretty empty arena for the foreseeable future when it comes to the Wizards.

The real loser, of course, is DC. This is hundreds of millions in lost revenue. All those restaurants in Gallery Place are going to die. It will be impossible to sell a condo in that neighborhood. It was the arena that turned everything around downtown 30 years ago. It will revert back to the crack era so fast it'll make your head spin. The future for downtown DC is bleak.

I blame Bowser and the City Council, of course. Absolute idiots. But the real villain is the USAO. When you decline to prosecute nearly 70 percent of all arrests, there are consequences. Leonsis said it himself. Most of his employees have been attacked and harassed just going to work. No wants that kind of stress in their day to day life. These are all repeat offenders well known to the police. The average murder suspect in DC has 11 felonies - pretty impressive for a teen or someone in their twenties. And USAO does nothing about these violent people.

So people and businesses are leaving DC. Until DC gets serious about putting criminals in prison, the city will continue to decline.

Plenty of people from Loudoun and western Fairfax travel to DC for Nationals BASEBALL(!) games. Plenty via Metro too (shock). Are MD people from Bethesda and CC too provincial to cross the Potomac? I’m sure a few are but C’mon. If you’re a fan, the move to a neighboring DC community won’t be a big deal.

BTW the commute from western Fairfax to Baltimore via car at rush hour is not that much longer than getting to DC for baseball games.

You aren't getting it. The reason people from all corners go to the games in DC is because DC is in the middle of the region with the transit hubs in the city. When you move attractions to one corner or another, it becomes at best inconvenient and at worse burdensome to untenable, to attend. So sure, you have people from western fairfax to Baltimore going to events in DC because it is DC. For people from Baltimore, it is an easy train ride to Union Station and then walk to the Arena or capital bike share to the arena or stadium. Really for people from upper NW DC and Montgomery County, adding an hour commute to attend games on a weeknight during rush hour (not an hour commute, ADDING an hour) is simply not an option for most people.

I'm a different poster but I promise you the owner doesn't think this is an issue. People will absolutely come to these games. I live here and I can tell you that these politicians and business people are looking to redefine this area. A few years ago I went to a local meeting about Amazon HQ coming to Arlington and the leaders running the effort told us that their goal is to make this area (Crystal City/Pentagon City/Potomac Yard/beyond) less car dependent and more metro/bike dependent. They told us that they don't want people dependent on cars. They are trying to build a dynamic metro like city. I believe there will be even greater changes to come that have not been shared yet.

+1. More people will attend the games if they are out of DC. DC is a PITA to get into and, to be frank, the majority of the areas population does not even live there. DC has 700K residents, NOVA has over 3M. NOVA alone could support the sports teams. Plus Baltimore is not coming to Caps/Wizard games - and they are def staying in Balt to support their NFL/MLB teams. NOVA is growing and at a considerably faster rate than DC. Moving the sports teams recognizes and reflects that trend. Glad to see it

I hate to admit it, but this is correct. DC is awful, the parking, the traffic, the pot smoking, the homeless people/druggies strung out all over judiciary square towards Cap One, being scared your car will get broken into, not being able to get an uber after the game, not enough police, it sucks. PY isn't perfect but I am willing to give it a chance over 20+ years of schlepping it out to Cap One. We are season ticket holders for the Nats and it also has become a hellish experience to get there and to get home, whether we drive or use metro.

There are multiple ways in and out of Cap One. There is just one road for PY. One road that is already a huge mess. Before you add 30k workers and thousands of sports fans.

^^^ This

Read the comments to this tweet, from people all over the region. It is pretty clear that there are a lot of ticket plan holders who see the new location as totally untenable

I am sure Ted will make his money, but for most long time fans of both teams, this is a loser move.

Team owners don’t care. Look at how long time ticket holders of the Yankees and Lions and others were treated when teams switched stadiums. Worse seats and elevated prices with priority given to corporations (at least at Yankees stadium).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do people who live in Crystal City, Aurora Highlands and Pentagon City in Arlington think? I’ve heard nothing about them. Godspeed.

The local NIMBYs are VERY upset. I doubt this makes it through both the Alexandria Council and State Assembly.

I dunno. A casino is being pushed through in western Fairfax despite local opposition.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I live in Fairfax and have partial season tix to the Caps and Wiz and like that I can pay $15 to park ~ a block away and then be home in 35/40 minutes post game. Neither of those things are going to happen in PY so I will give up my tix and maybe go to a couple of games a year, well planned and on a weekend afternoon.

From the arena, you can take the bus rapid transit to car parks in Crystal City, Pentagon City, or Old Town.

Again, that is adding at least a half hour each way on a commute to the games as compared to Gallery Place. for most fans, it won't be worth the time. For many fans, it won't even be a viable option. I hope Ted assumes that everyone who lives in "Potomac Landing" and Del ray will be season ticket holders, because the existing fan bases won't put up with the additional hassle.

I live in upper NW and would gladly spend an extra 30 minutes in traffic rather than subject my family to what Chinatown has become.

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+1 people are in denial how terrible Chinatown has become.

[Anonymous]

The Axios piece today shows that DC could not overcome what Youngkin promised (and apparently planned in advance with Leonsis).

Crime does not seem to be one of the factors for departure: https://www.axios.com/local/washington-dc/2023/12/14/capitals-wizards-stadium-virginia-how-it-happened

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Now that the Caps have cleared out of the market north of the Potomac, should the new NHL team be the Chesapeake Blue Crabs or the Baltimore Blue and Grey? Right off 95 on the water?

I think Chesapeake Blue and Grey would be killer and regional. Pulls in Delmarva for a tv market.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As I posted in the other thread, this is about the teams getting leverage so the DC Government will pony up a half billion dollars to renovate a 25 year old arena.

I can say based on texts with people in my friend groups that none of us in DC or MD would go to any games in the future.

I agree 100%. As a frequent attendee at Caps games, I certainly would attend fewer games if the games were held in PY. The current location is highly convenient for me, whether I drive or take Metro. The idea of attending a weekday game at PY has zero appeal.

+1 close-in MoCo. Our jobs are not downtown.

We would drop from a dozen Caps games a year, typically weeknights, to 1-2 weekend games at most. I am guessing the big $ these days is in the distro of broadcast and streaming rights (Monumental Sports owns the network), entertainment venue, and of course sports books. A drop in fan attendance might not hurt the bottom line as much going forward.

Excellent points. I bet the sports book gambling rights outweigh any potential lost revenue of butts-in-seats. Further, sports may be moving in such a direction that it might make more sense financially to have smaller facilities where you charge more per ticket, given that so many fans are watching from the comfort of their home or on their phone. Make in-person games a "premium experience" and move away from the season ticketholder model. The real profits are in merchandising (IP), advertising (broadcast rights), surrounding real estate development, and now gambling. Butts-in-seats becomes a loss leader.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I live near Potomac Yards, was curious and walked over to the site when the press conference was happening. I met all of the people shown in the photos, including the man and woman that seem to be circulating in several tweets and posts (including previously in this threead). The man has dark hair with a sign that read something like "no tax breaks for billionaires" and the woman's sign said "Housing not Hockey.

So those people were NOT together, they just happened to be there at the same time. She is 100% YIMBY and told me herself she is a Justin Wilson fan. That is why her sign mentions housing. She's happy with the zoning changes, and other things Justin has done in his tenure. The guy didnt' say if he's NIMBY or YIMBY but he doesnt want tax breaks for billionaires. Both were nice.

Photos show just the two of them, but when I got there around 9:05 there were a lot more people. There was the tall Moms against something and a bunch of people who were screaming profanity every time someone opened the tent door (like F Leonsis, F U Youngkin). So that doesn't strike me as a NIMBY kind of person.

After about 5 minutes of that the security brought another blue screened piece of fence to fully encase the tents so the protestors now couldn't see.

I left. I think so few people were there (maybe 15) because no one really knew about it. It is big news now but at the time a lot of people in the neighborhood had no idea this was happening. So because there was no lead time there wasn't time to mobilize.

This seems to be a come to Jesus moment for a lot of Alexandrians who've blinded followed Wilson and the city council policies and chastised any one with a different opinion. Now thy have to make a choice, do they continue doing whatever their leader says or do they actually take a stand?

I am the one pointing out that people become NIMBYs under the right circumstances. This is an interesting post and gets to my point. Justin’s ardent supporters are visibly absent from his FB post, except for one who is questioning his priorities. Amy and John’s posts are similarly quiet. I think people feel completely bamboozled by this announcement, especially following the ZFH discussion (and I think that is true for folks on both sides).