Playing styles

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

First touch, learning how to strike the ball for different types of pass, accurate passing, learning to play one or two touch soccer, thinking and making decisions quickly are all just as important as dribbling and the better kids start developing these skills at U10/U11. They cannot develop these skills outside of a program where they are emphasized and used in practise and on game day. And waiting until U15 or U16 is way too late. At that point the kid is too far behind and most certainly will not get picked up by DC United on the basis of dribbling skill alone.

Clearly you don’t understand the definition of technical skills as it relates to soccer. Classic parent problem, but you can educated yourself. If you are going to spend $30k on your child’s soccer hobby, do a little legwork and understand what you are buying

So you do not believe first touch, learning how to pass and strike, and playing one touch/two touch are technical skills? Strange views you have there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

First touch, learning how to strike the ball for different types of pass, accurate passing, learning to play one or two touch soccer, thinking and making decisions quickly are all just as important as dribbling and the better kids start developing these skills at U10/U11. They cannot develop these skills outside of a program where they are emphasized and used in practise and on game day. And waiting until U15 or U16 is way too late. At that point the kid is too far behind and most certainly will not get picked up by DC United on the basis of dribbling skill alone.

Clearly you don’t understand the definition of technical skills as it relates to soccer. Classic parent problem, but you can educated yourself. If you are going to spend $30k on your child’s soccer hobby, do a little legwork and understand what you are buying

So you do not believe first touch, learning how to pass and strike, and playing one touch/two touch are technical skills? Strange views you have there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Oh, BTW there are studies about what and how kids learn, they may be a better source than you ‘observing’. But science is probably inconvenient for you...

So you're a scientist now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

First touch, learning how to strike the ball for different types of pass, accurate passing, learning to play one or two touch soccer, thinking and making decisions quickly are all just as important as dribbling and the better kids start developing these skills at U10/U11. They cannot develop these skills outside of a program where they are emphasized and used in practise and on game day. And waiting until U15 or U16 is way too late. At that point the kid is too far behind and most certainly will not get picked up by DC United on the basis of dribbling skill alone.

Clearly you don’t understand the definition of technical skills as it relates to soccer. Classic parent problem, but you can educated yourself. If you are going to spend $30k on your child’s soccer hobby, do a little legwork and understand what you are buying

So you do not believe first touch, learning how to pass and strike, and playing one touch/two touch are technical skills? Strange views you have there.

Maybe you should try to keep up. I know what the technical skills of soccer are and at what age they are best taught. If you bothered to read the thread you would have realized that. I stated earlier that technical should be the focus at younger ages. What is inappropriate is teaching systems of play at younger ages, the kids just don’t have the mental capacity to understand the concepts. You’ve already demonstrated that you can’t follow a simple discussion, please try to pay better attention in the future.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Oh, BTW there are studies about what and how kids learn, they may be a better source than you ‘observing’. But science is probably inconvenient for you...

So you're a scientist now.

I’m confused. Do only scientists use science? Do only dentists use teeth? Do only ON/GYNs have kids? Do only car mechanics use cars? Maybe you should work on you retorts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Maybe you should try to keep up. I know what the technical skills of soccer are and at what age they are best taught. If you bothered to read the thread you would have realized that. I stated earlier that technical should be the focus at younger ages. What is inappropriate is teaching systems of play at younger ages, the kids just don’t have the mental capacity to understand the concepts. You’ve already demonstrated that you can’t follow a simple discussion, please try to pay better attention in the future.

You're off on a new tangent, but you didn't answer the question. Why don't you believe first touch, learning how to pass and strike, and playing one touch/two touch are technical skills? I'm actually curious as to why you wrote that. If you want to back away from it, fine, just admit what you wrote was incorrect.

OP wrote:

Anonymous wrote:First touch, learning how to strike the ball for different types of pass, accurate passing, learning to play one or two touch soccer, thinking and making decisions quickly are all just as important as dribbling and the better kids start developing these skills at U10/U11. They cannot develop these skills outside of a program where they are emphasized and used in practise and on game day. And waiting until U15 or U16 is way too late. At that point the kid is too far behind and most certainly will not get picked up by DC United on the basis of dribbling skill alone.

You replied:

Anonymous wrote:Clearly you don’t understand the definition of technical skills as it relates to soccer. Classic parent problem, but you can educated yourself. If you are going to spend $30k on your child’s soccer hobby, do a little legwork and understand what you are buying

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Do only dentists use teeth? Do only ON/GYNs have kids? Do only car mechanics use cars?

Do only nutters write nutty things?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It matters very little where you train at u12 and below, u13 and u14 are the transition years to competition and also matter little, u15+ is the competition range, and u17+ is college/pro recruiting. So the real testament to a club’s development approach is how are their u17 and up teams performing. As far as ‘formative development years’ go, you are confused. Kids physical and mental development is pretty well understood. At younger ages, working on foot skills makes sense whereas strength training and pattern play is a waste of time. When they get into the transitions years 13&14 it makes sense to introduce more spatial awareness drills and some physical movement concepts. At 15 and up they should be developing all player traits. I know clubs like to think that they develop all these kids and than they leave. Maybe, the kids leave because they aren’t getting developed. As far as DCU and MLS are concerned, they are happy to take your league fee and let you sort out the players. Professionals realize that it matters very little where the kids are playing prior to U15. However, they will cherry pick talent at u15 because that is the beginning of the formative development years. Now go back to your Kool-aid.

I disagree with this. There are a great many more skills to be developed than you suggest here. First touch, learning how to strike the ball for different types of pass, accurate passing, learning to play one or two touch soccer, thinking and making decisions quickly are all just as important as dribbling and the better kids start developing these skills at U10/U11. They cannot develop these skills outside of a program where they are emphasized and used in practise and on game day. And waiting until U15 or U16 is way too late. At that point the kid is too far behind and most certainly will not get picked up by DC United on the basis of dribbling skill alone.

Clearly you don’t understand the definition of technical skills as it relates to soccer. Classic parent problem, but you can educated yourself. If you are going to spend $30k on your child’s soccer hobby, do a little legwork and understand what you are buying

PP here. I'm not quite sure what you're saying here.

1. Are you saying that the things I have identified are technical skills or that they aren't?
2. Are you saying that these skills should or shouldn't be taught to kids before they turn 15 or 16?
3. Are you saying that these skills can be taught and developed just as well on a team which does not emphasize the quick passing game and retaining possession as a team that does?
4. Would you agree that some clubs clearly do a better job of developing these skills than other clubs?

Thanks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It matters very little where you train at u12 and below, u13 and u14 are the transition years to competition and also matter little, u15+ is the competition range, and u17+ is college/pro recruiting. So the real testament to a club’s development approach is how are their u17 and up teams performing. As far as ‘formative development years’ go, you are confused. Kids physical and mental development is pretty well understood. At younger ages, working on foot skills makes sense whereas strength training and pattern play is a waste of time. When they get into the transitions years 13&14 it makes sense to introduce more spatial awareness drills and some physical movement concepts. At 15 and up they should be developing all player traits. I know clubs like to think that they develop all these kids and than they leave. Maybe, the kids leave because they aren’t getting developed. As far as DCU and MLS are concerned, they are happy to take your league fee and let you sort out the players. Professionals realize that it matters very little where the kids are playing prior to U15. However, they will cherry pick talent at u15 because that is the beginning of the formative development years. Now go back to your Kool-aid.

I disagree with this. There are a great many more skills to be developed than you suggest here. First touch, learning how to strike the ball for different types of pass, accurate passing, learning to play one or two touch soccer, thinking and making decisions quickly are all just as important as dribbling and the better kids start developing these skills at U10/U11. They cannot develop these skills outside of a program where they are emphasized and used in practise and on game day. And waiting until U15 or U16 is way too late. At that point the kid is too far behind and most certainly will not get picked up by DC United on the basis of dribbling skill alone.

Clearly you don’t understand the definition of technical skills as it relates to soccer. Classic parent problem, but you can educated yourself. If you are going to spend $30k on your child’s soccer hobby, do a little legwork and understand what you are buying

PP here. I'm not quite sure what you're saying here.

1. Are you saying that the things I have identified are technical skills or that they aren't?
2. Are you saying that these skills should or shouldn't be taught to kids before they turn 15 or 16?
3. Are you saying that these skills can be taught and developed just as well on a team which does not emphasize the quick passing game and retaining possession as a team that does?
4. Would you agree that some clubs clearly do a better job of developing these skills than other clubs?

Thanks.

Maybe this will help. Footskills = technical

This might also help.

I said kids should focus on eating their vegetables at young ages
You said no they should eat broccoli, cabbage and carrots.
I said clearly you don’t know what vegetables are.

Specifically,
1. See above
2. See above
3. The skills are not dependent on a system/style/strategy of play.
4. Not really. Here is the order of the important characters in a kids soccer development. 1) the kid (he/she needs to want it) 2) the family/parents/alternative support structure ( they need to support the kid wanting it) 3) the coach(es) (supportive and knowledgeable) 4) the club (clubs don’t develop players, clubs offer a place for kids to develop - all that is important is whether or not the kid can be challenged by the peer group) 5j the league ( mostly meaningless, but should provide some opportunities for competitive matches).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It matters very little where you train at u12 and below, u13 and u14 are the transition years to competition and also matter little, u15+ is the competition range, and u17+ is college/pro recruiting. So the real testament to a club’s development approach is how are their u17 and up teams performing. As far as ‘formative development years’ go, you are confused. Kids physical and mental development is pretty well understood. At younger ages, working on foot skills makes sense whereas strength training and pattern play is a waste of time. When they get into the transitions years 13&14 it makes sense to introduce more spatial awareness drills and some physical movement concepts. At 15 and up they should be developing all player traits. I know clubs like to think that they develop all these kids and than they leave. Maybe, the kids leave because they aren’t getting developed. As far as DCU and MLS are concerned, they are happy to take your league fee and let you sort out the players. Professionals realize that it matters very little where the kids are playing prior to U15. However, they will cherry pick talent at u15 because that is the beginning of the formative development years. Now go back to your Kool-aid.

I disagree with this. There are a great many more skills to be developed than you suggest here. First touch, learning how to strike the ball for different types of pass, accurate passing, learning to play one or two touch soccer, thinking and making decisions quickly are all just as important as dribbling and the better kids start developing these skills at U10/U11. They cannot develop these skills outside of a program where they are emphasized and used in practise and on game day. And waiting until U15 or U16 is way too late. At that point the kid is too far behind and most certainly will not get picked up by DC United on the basis of dribbling skill alone.

Clearly you don’t understand the definition of technical skills as it relates to soccer. Classic parent problem, but you can educated yourself. If you are going to spend $30k on your child’s soccer hobby, do a little legwork and understand what you are buying

PP here. I'm not quite sure what you're saying here.

1. Are you saying that the things I have identified are technical skills or that they aren't?
2. Are you saying that these skills should or shouldn't be taught to kids before they turn 15 or 16?
3. Are you saying that these skills can be taught and developed just as well on a team which does not emphasize the quick passing game and retaining possession as a team that does?
4. Would you agree that some clubs clearly do a better job of developing these skills than other clubs?

Thanks.

Maybe this will help. Footskills = technical

This might also help.

I said kids should focus on eating their vegetables at young ages
You said no they should eat broccoli, cabbage and carrots.
I said clearly you don’t know what vegetables are.

Specifically,
1. See above
2. See above
3. The skills are not dependent on a system/style/strategy of play.
4. Not really. Here is the order of the important characters in a kids soccer development. 1) the kid (he/she needs to want it) 2) the family/parents/alternative support structure ( they need to support the kid wanting it) 3) the coach(es) (supportive and knowledgeable) 4) the club (clubs don’t develop players, clubs offer a place for kids to develop - all that is important is whether or not the kid can be challenged by the peer group) 5j the league ( mostly meaningless, but should provide some opportunities for competitive matches).

Well I'm glad we agree on so much . I think the areas where we might still disagree are

1. Whether the club matters - where I agree with your point that the what really matters is the coaching, but would suggest that some clubs do a much better job than others of pulling together a team of good coaches, implementing a coaching philosophy, and therefore providing consistently good coaching across all (or nearly all) of their teams.

2. I still disagree that kids will learn technical skills as well at a club where they are not emphasized as one where they are. Dribbling and ball striking are the only skills which kids can truly develop on their own through solo practise. The other skills require the coaches to emphasize them in training and in gameplay. In a club which emphasizes long balls played to fast forwards, the kids will not learn these skills nearly as well as a club which is committed to the kids developing an eleven man passing game based around quick thinking, first touch, and quick, accurate passing. And irrespective of intent or commitment to any particular tactics - a team where all the players have developed these skills is going to retain possession much better than one where they haven't.

3. I am not an Alexandria parent, but from my observation of the players it seems to me that Alexandria is one of the clubs which does a good job of developing these skills in their players across all their coaches and teams. They are not the only club which could claim this, nor in my view are they even the best, but they are certainly amongst the best in this area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It matters very little where you train at u12 and below, u13 and u14 are the transition years to competition and also matter little, u15+ is the competition range, and u17+ is college/pro recruiting. So the real testament to a club’s development approach is how are their u17 and up teams performing. As far as ‘formative development years’ go, you are confused. Kids physical and mental development is pretty well understood. At younger ages, working on foot skills makes sense whereas strength training and pattern play is a waste of time. When they get into the transitions years 13&14 it makes sense to introduce more spatial awareness drills and some physical movement concepts. At 15 and up they should be developing all player traits. I know clubs like to think that they develop all these kids and than they leave. Maybe, the kids leave because they aren’t getting developed. As far as DCU and MLS are concerned, they are happy to take your league fee and let you sort out the players. Professionals realize that it matters very little where the kids are playing prior to U15. However, they will cherry pick talent at u15 because that is the beginning of the formative development years. Now go back to your Kool-aid.

I disagree with this. There are a great many more skills to be developed than you suggest here. First touch, learning how to strike the ball for different types of pass, accurate passing, learning to play one or two touch soccer, thinking and making decisions quickly are all just as important as dribbling and the better kids start developing these skills at U10/U11. They cannot develop these skills outside of a program where they are emphasized and used in practise and on game day. And waiting until U15 or U16 is way too late. At that point the kid is too far behind and most certainly will not get picked up by DC United on the basis of dribbling skill alone.

Clearly you don’t understand the definition of technical skills as it relates to soccer. Classic parent problem, but you can educated yourself. If you are going to spend $30k on your child’s soccer hobby, do a little legwork and understand what you are buying

PP here. I'm not quite sure what you're saying here.

1. Are you saying that the things I have identified are technical skills or that they aren't?
2. Are you saying that these skills should or shouldn't be taught to kids before they turn 15 or 16?
3. Are you saying that these skills can be taught and developed just as well on a team which does not emphasize the quick passing game and retaining possession as a team that does?
4. Would you agree that some clubs clearly do a better job of developing these skills than other clubs?

Thanks.

Maybe this will help. Footskills = technical

This might also help.

I said kids should focus on eating their vegetables at young ages
You said no they should eat broccoli, cabbage and carrots.
I said clearly you don’t know what vegetables are.

Specifically,
1. See above
2. See above
3. The skills are not dependent on a system/style/strategy of play.
4. Not really. Here is the order of the important characters in a kids soccer development. 1) the kid (he/she needs to want it) 2) the family/parents/alternative support structure ( they need to support the kid wanting it) 3) the coach(es) (supportive and knowledgeable) 4) the club (clubs don’t develop players, clubs offer a place for kids to develop - all that is important is whether or not the kid can be challenged by the peer group) 5j the league ( mostly meaningless, but should provide some opportunities for competitive matches).

Well I'm glad we agree on so much . I think the areas where we might still disagree are

1. Whether the club matters - where I agree with your point that the what really matters is the coaching, but would suggest that some clubs do a much better job than others of pulling together a team of good coaches, implementing a coaching philosophy, and therefore providing consistently good coaching across all (or nearly all) of their teams.

2. I still disagree that kids will learn technical skills as well at a club where they are not emphasized as one where they are. Dribbling and ball striking are the only skills which kids can truly develop on their own through solo practise. The other skills require the coaches to emphasize them in training and in gameplay. In a club which emphasizes long balls played to fast forwards, the kids will not learn these skills nearly as well as a club which is committed to the kids developing an eleven man passing game based around quick thinking, first touch, and quick, accurate passing. And irrespective of intent or commitment to any particular tactics - a team where all the players have developed these skills is going to retain possession much better than one where they haven't.

3. I am not an Alexandria parent, but from my observation of the players it seems to me that Alexandria is one of the clubs which does a good job of developing these skills in their players across all their coaches and teams. They are not the only club which could claim this, nor in my view are they even the best, but they are certainly amongst the best in this area.

Some thoughts.

1) Most of the clubs have a hard time retaining coaches from year to year. There are a few marquee coaches at some clubs,, but the majority are unknowns. I would be hard pressed to state definitively that any specific club has good coaching across all their teams. Kids/parents should know who will coach them before they pick a club.

2) At the younger ages, there is no need for a style of play. In reality, it shouldn’t even be part of the discussion. The physical space and drill design should be planned to encourage good decisions. I see far too many clubs run 30 minute passing and pattern drills every practice to make the kids look like the club has a style. This time would be better spent working on technical skills. Patterns and styles should come later. If I give a 10 yo a hammer and a nail, it may take him a full minute to nail it into a board. A 15 yo will take a couple of seconds. Introducing concepts too early is painful for everyone, but takes away from the kids developing.

3) Alexandria is one of the clubs where they do a lot of pattern play with their younger kids. Is it attractive soccer, sometimes. Unfortunately, the kids are told at a young age that there is a right way and a wrong way to play. When they get older, they are trained to make what they were taught was the right decision. That passing system is not always the best decision, but the kids have not been trained to make decisions, only execute their rote patterns. After the kids go through puberty, 13/14 for girls 15/16 for boys, that singular style of play isn’t working for the teams. (The teams underperform). Sometimes the best decision is to kick it to the fast kid and score instead of trying to build out of the back under high pressure. I’d be suspicious of any club who claims they are teaching a style because they are likely not teaching the whole game.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Maybe you should try to keep up. I know what the technical skills of soccer are and at what age they are best taught. If you bothered to read the thread you would have realized that. I stated earlier that technical should be the focus at younger ages. What is inappropriate is teaching systems of play at younger ages, the kids just don’t have the mental capacity to understand the concepts. You’ve already demonstrated that you can’t follow a simple discussion, please try to pay better attention in the future.

Hey guy, when covid is over can you hop over here to Europe and explain to all the 7- and 8-year-olds that they don’t have the mental capacity to understand systems of play?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Maybe you should try to keep up. I know what the technical skills of soccer are and at what age they are best taught. If you bothered to read the thread you would have realized that. I stated earlier that technical should be the focus at younger ages. What is inappropriate is teaching systems of play at younger ages, the kids just don’t have the mental capacity to understand the concepts. You’ve already demonstrated that you can’t follow a simple discussion, please try to pay better attention in the future.

Hey guy, when covid is over can you hop over here to Europe and explain to all the 7- and 8-year-olds that they don’t have the mental capacity to understand systems of play?

+1. Hysterical and dead right.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Well I'm glad we agree on so much . I think the areas where we might still disagree are

1. Whether the club matters - where I agree with your point that the what really matters is the coaching, but would suggest that some clubs do a much better job than others of pulling together a team of good coaches, implementing a coaching philosophy, and therefore providing consistently good coaching across all (or nearly all) of their teams.

2. I still disagree that kids will learn technical skills as well at a club where they are not emphasized as one where they are. Dribbling and ball striking are the only skills which kids can truly develop on their own through solo practise. The other skills require the coaches to emphasize them in training and in gameplay. In a club which emphasizes long balls played to fast forwards, the kids will not learn these skills nearly as well as a club which is committed to the kids developing an eleven man passing game based around quick thinking, first touch, and quick, accurate passing. And irrespective of intent or commitment to any particular tactics - a team where all the players have developed these skills is going to retain possession much better than one where they haven't.

3. I am not an Alexandria parent, but from my observation of the players it seems to me that Alexandria is one of the clubs which does a good job of developing these skills in their players across all their coaches and teams. They are not the only club which could claim this, nor in my view are they even the best, but they are certainly amongst the best in this area.

Some thoughts.

1) Most of the clubs have a hard time retaining coaches from year to year. There are a few marquee coaches at some clubs,, but the majority are unknowns. I would be hard pressed to state definitively that any specific club has good coaching across all their teams. Kids/parents should know who will coach them before they pick a club.

2) At the younger ages, there is no need for a style of play. In reality, it shouldn’t even be part of the discussion. The physical space and drill design should be planned to encourage good decisions. I see far too many clubs run 30 minute passing and pattern drills every practice to make the kids look like the club has a style. This time would be better spent working on technical skills. Patterns and styles should come later. If I give a 10 yo a hammer and a nail, it may take him a full minute to nail it into a board. A 15 yo will take a couple of seconds. Introducing concepts too early is painful for everyone, but takes away from the kids developing.

3) Alexandria is one of the clubs where they do a lot of pattern play with their younger kids. Is it attractive soccer, sometimes. Unfortunately, the kids are told at a young age that there is a right way and a wrong way to play. When they get older, they are trained to make what they were taught was the right decision. That passing system is not always the best decision, but the kids have not been trained to make decisions, only execute their rote patterns. After the kids go through puberty, 13/14 for girls 15/16 for boys, that singular style of play isn’t working for the teams. (The teams underperform). Sometimes the best decision is to kick it to the fast kid and score instead of trying to build out of the back under high pressure. I’d be suspicious of any club who claims they are teaching a style because they are likely not teaching the whole game.

On (1) I agree that kids/parents should know who will coach them before they pick a club. And I'm just a parent so you may well have a better feel for the coaching across the local clubs than I do - but from my own observations I have noticed that Herndon, Alexandria and Arlington Academy seem to have kids that are consistently technically better than the clubs they each compete with - so they must be doing something right.

On (2) I agree with what you are saying about there being no need for a "style of play" in the sense you mean. But I continue to think that teams that teach the technical skills well will end up appearing to have a style of play simply because they retain possession so much better than teams where the kids cannot control and move the ball properly.

On (3) I haven't seen Alexandria run practices so I don't know if they are guilty as charged. They may well be - in which case they could improve - but whatever else they do or don't do - they do teach solid technical fundamentals. And I disagree that the Alexandria teams underperform at the U15 and U16 ages. Their U17 team doesn't seem to be all that good (judging by results at least - I haven't seen them play), but I will be interested to see how the 2005 and 2006 teams perform over the next couple of years. I know nothing about the girls teams.

[Anonymous]

Have you had a chance to observe Vienna? Very impressive ball handling skills.