AAP - why not have it for all of FCPS?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP here. We are new to Fairfax County. DC are in preschool now, so no first-hand experience with FCPS yet.

Everyone we have met, at church or at work or in our neighborhood, including some FCPS teachers, is giving us the same advice. Here is a summary of what we keep hearing:

- FCPS was much stronger academically in the 1990s than now.
- AAP now is secretly the standard track and Gen-Ed now is the slow track.
- AAP is watered down compared with 20 years ago.
- Virginia's older SOLs were very good, until they were watered down to "align" with Common Core.
- It is critical to get DC into AAP for them to have a challenging curriculum.
- Do not leave AAP acceptance to chance; instead get DC prepped and get external testing to support an appeal if needed
- Even if in AAp, consider Kumon / Mathnasium / etc to supplement and reinforce.

This all seems nuts to us, but we are hearing the same advice from everyone, including FCPS teachers at church.

If you check the other Nova forum and the Maryland school forums, they all say that too. If you look at blogs online, parents are saying that about schools all over the country.

Occasionally, you'll hear some say that the "better" AAP of the 90s was a grind, was inappropriately too difficult and too much work for grade school kids. So there's that.

FCPS high schools are very good. That's something to keep in mind when you're getting bogged down in these sorts of comments.

VA is planning to have no advanced math classes with VMPI.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Op, I get it. No student should be denied the opportunity to reach their potential.

Do not allow the proponents of "Gifted Education" to have you doubt what you know should be the right thing.

I have no problem with letting parents/students self select into accelerated programs. But we need to be okay failing kids who can't keep up. It can't be a 'I want the advanced curriculum, but I can't keep up, so the teacher has to slow it down for everyone.' The classes should go at pace. If you need extra help, you can get some extra tutoring on your own time, or if it's too much you can drop to the gen-ed classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op, I get it. No student should be denied the opportunity to reach their potential.

Do not allow the proponents of "Gifted Education" to have you doubt what you know should be the right thing.

I have no problem with letting parents/students self select into accelerated programs. But we need to be okay failing kids who can't keep up. It can't be a 'I want the advanced curriculum, but I can't keep up, so the teacher has to slow it down for everyone.' The classes should go at pace. If you need extra help, you can get some extra tutoring on your own time, or if it's too much you can drop to the gen-ed classes.

The problem is that is NOT going to happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In our school, they use some of it for everyone but generally the AAP material ends up being used for the top groups in the gen ed class. For instance, the highest LA groups in each 4th grade class are doing Caesar’s English, in 6th grade GE only some of the groups are doing Jacob’s Ladder at all or doing one every week as opposed to taking a lot longer, GE kids can test into advanced math, etc. I think it strikes a good balance between AAP For Everyone and just assuming that the gen ed kids can’t handle it.

Seems to be a step forward - agree with you that kids should not be underestimated. Is AAP so exceptional? Don’t truly exceptional kids on either side of the spectrum still need differentiated teaching?

In terms of limited resources: how much time and resources are needed for AAP assessments each year? would that not be better allocated to teaching kids well and with better teacher:student class ratios?

Thanks. OP

any FCPS teachers' perspectives on this?

Their solution to this at the middle school level was to make honors open enrollment. It has been handled differently by each school (some allow anyone to move classes at any point in the year, some let you sign up for anything but then you're stuck there, some try to encourage more honors, some try to discourage it), so it's hard to make blanket statements. In my experience though, all kids want to say they are in honors, and all parents want their kid in honors to be around the kids they perceive to be more motivated/dedicated. That means I have kids who failed their 6th grade math SOL sitting in math 7 honors. Kids who failed their math 7 SOL sitting in algebra. They struggle all year because I cannot teach 2-3 years of math to them in a group setting in one year, and many of them end up repeating algebra in high school because they lack foundational understanding of the math concepts.

My peers who have been teaching longer than I have will tell you that AAP is what honors used to be and honors has been slowed to what gen ed used to be due to the open enrollment and pressure to not allow anyone to fail.

So would it be helpful to have AAP for all FCPS kids so that it does not lead to the problems you noted with the open enrollment option for all classes in middle school?

This inconsistency must make it difficult for middle school teachers. (What happens after middle school - open AP/honors enrollment again?)

No, I do not think AAP for all would solve this--I think it would just push the problem to an earlier level. I am a math teacher so that's my focus (it may very well be an English teacher had a completely different viewpoint). In 3rd grade when they are splitting up the kids for AAP, some kids are still learning to skip count, some are working on multiplication, and others are capable of doing prealgebra. The idea that everyone can access the advanced math curriculum is unrealistic, and does a disservice to kids who need foundational math supports. Exposing kids to advanced math before they are ready provides no long term benefits, and leads to memorizing procedures rather than deeper understanding that they can build on in middle school and high school.

In high school there is no more AAP. You can sign up for whatever classes you want regardless of level--honors/gen ed/AP/IB.

As a math teacher are you disappointed with VMPI limits on math?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In our school, they use some of it for everyone but generally the AAP material ends up being used for the top groups in the gen ed class. For instance, the highest LA groups in each 4th grade class are doing Caesar’s English, in 6th grade GE only some of the groups are doing Jacob’s Ladder at all or doing one every week as opposed to taking a lot longer, GE kids can test into advanced math, etc. I think it strikes a good balance between AAP For Everyone and just assuming that the gen ed kids can’t handle it.

Seems to be a step forward - agree with you that kids should not be underestimated. Is AAP so exceptional? Don’t truly exceptional kids on either side of the spectrum still need differentiated teaching?

In terms of limited resources: how much time and resources are needed for AAP assessments each year? would that not be better allocated to teaching kids well and with better teacher:student class ratios?

Thanks. OP

any FCPS teachers' perspectives on this?

Their solution to this at the middle school level was to make honors open enrollment. It has been handled differently by each school (some allow anyone to move classes at any point in the year, some let you sign up for anything but then you're stuck there, some try to encourage more honors, some try to discourage it), so it's hard to make blanket statements. In my experience though, all kids want to say they are in honors, and all parents want their kid in honors to be around the kids they perceive to be more motivated/dedicated. That means I have kids who failed their 6th grade math SOL sitting in math 7 honors. Kids who failed their math 7 SOL sitting in algebra. They struggle all year because I cannot teach 2-3 years of math to them in a group setting in one year, and many of them end up repeating algebra in high school because they lack foundational understanding of the math concepts.

My peers who have been teaching longer than I have will tell you that AAP is what honors used to be and honors has been slowed to what gen ed used to be due to the open enrollment and pressure to not allow anyone to fail.

So would it be helpful to have AAP for all FCPS kids so that it does not lead to the problems you noted with the open enrollment option for all classes in middle school?

This inconsistency must make it difficult for middle school teachers. (What happens after middle school - open AP/honors enrollment again?)

No, I do not think AAP for all would solve this--I think it would just push the problem to an earlier level. I am a math teacher so that's my focus (it may very well be an English teacher had a completely different viewpoint). In 3rd grade when they are splitting up the kids for AAP, some kids are still learning to skip count, some are working on multiplication, and others are capable of doing prealgebra. The idea that everyone can access the advanced math curriculum is unrealistic, and does a disservice to kids who need foundational math supports. Exposing kids to advanced math before they are ready provides no long term benefits, and leads to memorizing procedures rather than deeper understanding that they can build on in middle school and high school.

In high school there is no more AAP. You can sign up for whatever classes you want regardless of level--honors/gen ed/AP/IB.

As a math teacher are you disappointed with VMPI limits on math?

Can you please just stay in the one of many threads in the subject? Why must you go back to this on every thread on this forum and the FCPS forum? Stick to the subject.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP here. We are new to Fairfax County. DC are in preschool now, so no first-hand experience with FCPS yet.

Everyone we have met, at church or at work or in our neighborhood, including some FCPS teachers, is giving us the same advice. Here is a summary of what we keep hearing:

- FCPS was much stronger academically in the 1990s than now.
- AAP now is secretly the standard track and Gen-Ed now is the slow track.
- AAP is watered down compared with 20 years ago.
- Virginia's older SOLs were very good, until they were watered down to "align" with Common Core.
- It is critical to get DC into AAP for them to have a challenging curriculum.
- Do not leave AAP acceptance to chance; instead get DC prepped and get external testing to support an appeal if needed
- Even if in AAp, consider Kumon / Mathnasium / etc to supplement and reinforce.

This all seems nuts to us, but we are hearing the same advice from everyone, including FCPS teachers at church.

If you check the other Nova forum and the Maryland school forums, they all say that too. If you look at blogs online, parents are saying that about schools all over the country.

Occasionally, you'll hear some say that the "better" AAP of the 90s was a grind, was inappropriately too difficult and too much work for grade school kids. So there's that.

FCPS high schools are very good. That's something to keep in mind when you're getting bogged down in these sorts of comments.

PP here. Where we came from, elsewhere in the USA, people did NOT have this kind of advice or these kinds of complaints. So it cannot be a universal situation. This is why it seems nuts to us, especially given positive marketing about FCPS.

No doubt some other areas are like FCPS. No telling how uncommon or common it might be nationally, however.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

FCPS teachers are advocating for this? Awesome.

YES. Multiple FCPS teachers say its important to game the AAP admissions system - if necessary - to ensure getting DC into AAP.

[Anonymous]

We have gone through kindergarten and first grade at our FCPS. The classes are huge and there are significant differences of learning levels. What we’ve seen via virtual school is disturbing - so much teaching his computers instead of by teachers, and I’ve come to realize it’s because of the wide range of skill levels in the room. They can’t teach to all of them when there’s 30 in a class. As far as I can tell our school does not do any pull out for K and 1st for level four services. It’s been an incredibly disappointing experience in fcps for us. My kid loves school but the work is too easy and the classes are way too big for in class differentiation to be done well. Given all the chaos around AAP I don’t know if we would even get accepted, but I think staying in the gen ed classes - assuming they are what we currently are dealing with but minus some academically strong children who do get in AAP - is really concerning. We’re leaving the school system for private in the fall and hope it’s better but who knows. We would like to stay and see if we get in AAP, but it’s not guaranteed and I do t want another wasted year.

Education has degraded so much in this country.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

FCPS teachers are advocating for this? Awesome.

YES. Multiple FCPS teachers say its important to game the AAP admissions system - if necessary - to ensure getting DC into AAP.

NP. This seems like something you'd hear if you're zoned for a cutthroat AAP center school as your base OR if you are in a neighborhood with a low ranked base school. Both of these scenarios have parents gunning for AAP for different reasons. But, I have never heard of a teacher advising a parent to game the system to gain acceptance. That seems like an excellent way to endanger your career and potentially lose a friend if the parents throw a bunch of money at testing that doesn't yield the expected results. If your kid needs Kumon or Mathnasieum to keep up in AAP math, rethink whether it's really a good fit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In our school, they use some of it for everyone but generally the AAP material ends up being used for the top groups in the gen ed class. For instance, the highest LA groups in each 4th grade class are doing Caesar’s English, in 6th grade GE only some of the groups are doing Jacob’s Ladder at all or doing one every week as opposed to taking a lot longer, GE kids can test into advanced math, etc. I think it strikes a good balance between AAP For Everyone and just assuming that the gen ed kids can’t handle it.

Seems to be a step forward - agree with you that kids should not be underestimated. Is AAP so exceptional? Don’t truly exceptional kids on either side of the spectrum still need differentiated teaching?

In terms of limited resources: how much time and resources are needed for AAP assessments each year? would that not be better allocated to teaching kids well and with better teacher:student class ratios?

Thanks. OP

any FCPS teachers' perspectives on this?

Their solution to this at the middle school level was to make honors open enrollment. It has been handled differently by each school (some allow anyone to move classes at any point in the year, some let you sign up for anything but then you're stuck there, some try to encourage more honors, some try to discourage it), so it's hard to make blanket statements. In my experience though, all kids want to say they are in honors, and all parents want their kid in honors to be around the kids they perceive to be more motivated/dedicated. That means I have kids who failed their 6th grade math SOL sitting in math 7 honors. Kids who failed their math 7 SOL sitting in algebra. They struggle all year because I cannot teach 2-3 years of math to them in a group setting in one year, and many of them end up repeating algebra in high school because they lack foundational understanding of the math concepts.

My peers who have been teaching longer than I have will tell you that AAP is what honors used to be and honors has been slowed to what gen ed used to be due to the open enrollment and pressure to not allow anyone to fail.

So would it be helpful to have AAP for all FCPS kids so that it does not lead to the problems you noted with the open enrollment option for all classes in middle school?

This inconsistency must make it difficult for middle school teachers. (What happens after middle school - open AP/honors enrollment again?)

No, I do not think AAP for all would solve this--I think it would just push the problem to an earlier level. I am a math teacher so that's my focus (it may very well be an English teacher had a completely different viewpoint). In 3rd grade when they are splitting up the kids for AAP, some kids are still learning to skip count, some are working on multiplication, and others are capable of doing prealgebra. The idea that everyone can access the advanced math curriculum is unrealistic, and does a disservice to kids who need foundational math supports. Exposing kids to advanced math before they are ready provides no long term benefits, and leads to memorizing procedures rather than deeper understanding that they can build on in middle school and high school.

In high school there is no more AAP. You can sign up for whatever classes you want regardless of level--honors/gen ed/AP/IB.

As a math teacher are you disappointed with VMPI limits on math?

Can you please just stay in the one of many threads in the subject? Why must you go back to this on every thread on this forum and the FCPS forum? Stick to the subject.

Are you a math teacher?

The current education policy makes AAP for no one more likely than AAP for all.

[Anonymous]

“ here. Where we came from, elsewhere in the USA, people did NOT have this kind of advice or these kinds of complaints. So it cannot be a universal situation. This is why it seems nuts to us, especially given positive marketing about FCPS.

No doubt some other areas are like FCPS. No telling how uncommon or common it might be nationally, however.”

I think it is because our set up here is kind of unusual. We are as a whole a well off suburban county. A couple decades ago the county was more uniformly MC and so was a better w school system. More recently Fairfax has seen a lot of lower income immigration and this has stretched the system a lot and watered things down a bit in an effort to catch that lower tier better.

Where I am from suburban schools are smaller and have less SES diversity so they are not dealing with the same challenges. Critically though the SB and school district is on a size that can actually be responsive to parent input - here the bureaucracy is so big they really seem to ignore what rank and file parents want.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Don't some FCPS schools have AAP in Gen Ed?

AAP is just an academic program. Is the selection process for kids needed? does it add any value?

Why not have AAP across all of FCPS and challenge truly exceptional kids with differentiation by their own school teachers (based on their specific needs)?

Do you know how hard differentiation is? I’d love for you to try it! Get 30 kids, create a lesson plan, and then create separate lessons for all those who need it. Then do that for every class every day.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don't some FCPS schools have AAP in Gen Ed?

AAP is just an academic program. Is the selection process for kids needed? does it add any value?

Why not have AAP across all of FCPS and challenge truly exceptional kids with differentiation by their own school teachers (based on their specific needs)?

Do you know how hard differentiation is? I’d love for you to try it! Get 30 kids, create a lesson plan, and then create separate lessons for all those who need it. Then do that for every class every day.

Teaching to the lowest standard is not the answer. AAP is what gen ed was when I was teaching.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don't some FCPS schools have AAP in Gen Ed?

AAP is just an academic program. Is the selection process for kids needed? does it add any value?

Why not have AAP across all of FCPS and challenge truly exceptional kids with differentiation by their own school teachers (based on their specific needs)?

Do you know how hard differentiation is? I’d love for you to try it! Get 30 kids, create a lesson plan, and then create separate lessons for all those who need it. Then do that for every class every day.

Teaching to the lowest standard is not the answer. AAP is what gen ed was when I was teaching.

Not a teacher, but I think today's parenting styles and teaching models don't make differentiation any easier. In an era when kids were taught to sit still and do their work it had to have been easier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don't some FCPS schools have AAP in Gen Ed?

AAP is just an academic program. Is the selection process for kids needed? does it add any value?

Why not have AAP across all of FCPS and challenge truly exceptional kids with differentiation by their own school teachers (based on their specific needs)?

Do you know how hard differentiation is? I’d love for you to try it! Get 30 kids, create a lesson plan, and then create separate lessons for all those who need it. Then do that for every class every day.

+1 There is no way to effectively differentiate in enormous classes with no textbooks/curriculum. It's a wonder to me that my kids' teachers keep it together as much as they do, though both have certainly had teachers who had no business being teachers in the first place.

I have an AAP kid and a child in gen ed who is quite smart but has special needs that interfere with schoolwork. I would never ask a teacher to have both of them inn the same class and effectively instruct both. Neither would get the appropriate amount of attention. My gen ed kid barely gets what they need in special ed classes for problem subjects - FCPS is very committed to doing the bare minimum on that front.