AAP - why not have it for all of FCPS?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In our school, they use some of it for everyone but generally the AAP material ends up being used for the top groups in the gen ed class. For instance, the highest LA groups in each 4th grade class are doing Caesar’s English, in 6th grade GE only some of the groups are doing Jacob’s Ladder at all or doing one every week as opposed to taking a lot longer, GE kids can test into advanced math, etc. I think it strikes a good balance between AAP For Everyone and just assuming that the gen ed kids can’t handle it.

Seems to be a step forward - agree with you that kids should not be underestimated. Is AAP so exceptional? Don’t truly exceptional kids on either side of the spectrum still need differentiated teaching?

In terms of limited resources: how much time and resources are needed for AAP assessments each year? would that not be better allocated to teaching kids well and with better teacher:student class ratios?

Thanks. OP

any FCPS teachers' perspectives on this?

Their solution to this at the middle school level was to make honors open enrollment. It has been handled differently by each school (some allow anyone to move classes at any point in the year, some let you sign up for anything but then you're stuck there, some try to encourage more honors, some try to discourage it), so it's hard to make blanket statements. In my experience though, all kids want to say they are in honors, and all parents want their kid in honors to be around the kids they perceive to be more motivated/dedicated. That means I have kids who failed their 6th grade math SOL sitting in math 7 honors. Kids who failed their math 7 SOL sitting in algebra. They struggle all year because I cannot teach 2-3 years of math to them in a group setting in one year, and many of them end up repeating algebra in high school because they lack foundational understanding of the math concepts.

My peers who have been teaching longer than I have will tell you that AAP is what honors used to be and honors has been slowed to what gen ed used to be due to the open enrollment and pressure to not allow anyone to fail.

So would it be helpful to have AAP for all FCPS kids so that it does not lead to the problems you noted with the open enrollment option for all classes in middle school?

This inconsistency must make it difficult for middle school teachers. (What happens after middle school - open AP/honors enrollment again?)

No, I do not think AAP for all would solve this--I think it would just push the problem to an earlier level. I am a math teacher so that's my focus (it may very well be an English teacher had a completely different viewpoint). In 3rd grade when they are splitting up the kids for AAP, some kids are still learning to skip count, some are working on multiplication, and others are capable of doing prealgebra. The idea that everyone can access the advanced math curriculum is unrealistic, and does a disservice to kids who need foundational math supports. Exposing kids to advanced math before they are ready provides no long term benefits, and leads to memorizing procedures rather than deeper understanding that they can build on in middle school and high school.

In high school there is no more AAP. You can sign up for whatever classes you want regardless of level--honors/gen ed/AP/IB.

[Anonymous]

Most probable reason would be that residents of Fairfax county does not want to increase in taxes to support addtional teachers to provide AAP at all schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Most probable reason would be that residents of Fairfax county does not want to increase in taxes to support addtional teachers to provide AAP at all schools

Taxpayers don't want to pay more, but that's irrelevant to AAP. AAP classes get one teacher, just like gen ed classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In our school, they use some of it for everyone but generally the AAP material ends up being used for the top groups in the gen ed class. For instance, the highest LA groups in each 4th grade class are doing Caesar’s English, in 6th grade GE only some of the groups are doing Jacob’s Ladder at all or doing one every week as opposed to taking a lot longer, GE kids can test into advanced math, etc. I think it strikes a good balance between AAP For Everyone and just assuming that the gen ed kids can’t handle it.

Seems to be a step forward - agree with you that kids should not be underestimated. Is AAP so exceptional? Don’t truly exceptional kids on either side of the spectrum still need differentiated teaching?

In terms of limited resources: how much time and resources are needed for AAP assessments each year? would that not be better allocated to teaching kids well and with better teacher:student class ratios?

Thanks. OP

any FCPS teachers' perspectives on this?

Their solution to this at the middle school level was to make honors open enrollment. It has been handled differently by each school (some allow anyone to move classes at any point in the year, some let you sign up for anything but then you're stuck there, some try to encourage more honors, some try to discourage it), so it's hard to make blanket statements. In my experience though, all kids want to say they are in honors, and all parents want their kid in honors to be around the kids they perceive to be more motivated/dedicated. That means I have kids who failed their 6th grade math SOL sitting in math 7 honors. Kids who failed their math 7 SOL sitting in algebra. They struggle all year because I cannot teach 2-3 years of math to them in a group setting in one year, and many of them end up repeating algebra in high school because they lack foundational understanding of the math concepts.

My peers who have been teaching longer than I have will tell you that AAP is what honors used to be and honors has been slowed to what gen ed used to be due to the open enrollment and pressure to not allow anyone to fail.

So would it be helpful to have AAP for all FCPS kids so that it does not lead to the problems you noted with the open enrollment option for all classes in middle school?

This inconsistency must make it difficult for middle school teachers. (What happens after middle school - open AP/honors enrollment again?)

No, I do not think AAP for all would solve this--I think it would just push the problem to an earlier level. I am a math teacher so that's my focus (it may very well be an English teacher had a completely different viewpoint). In 3rd grade when they are splitting up the kids for AAP, some kids are still learning to skip count, some are working on multiplication, and others are capable of doing prealgebra. The idea that everyone can access the advanced math curriculum is unrealistic, and does a disservice to kids who need foundational math supports. Exposing kids to advanced math before they are ready provides no long term benefits, and leads to memorizing procedures rather than deeper understanding that they can build on in middle school and high school.

In high school there is no more AAP. You can sign up for whatever classes you want regardless of level--honors/gen ed/AP/IB.

Why do you see such diverse knowledge of basic math acquired between K-2? unlikely to be simply based on kids’ aptitudes? and wouldn’t it better to address any inconsistency in syllabus or knowledge gaps early on?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In our school, they use some of it for everyone but generally the AAP material ends up being used for the top groups in the gen ed class. For instance, the highest LA groups in each 4th grade class are doing Caesar’s English, in 6th grade GE only some of the groups are doing Jacob’s Ladder at all or doing one every week as opposed to taking a lot longer, GE kids can test into advanced math, etc. I think it strikes a good balance between AAP For Everyone and just assuming that the gen ed kids can’t handle it.

Seems to be a step forward - agree with you that kids should not be underestimated. Is AAP so exceptional? Don’t truly exceptional kids on either side of the spectrum still need differentiated teaching?

In terms of limited resources: how much time and resources are needed for AAP assessments each year? would that not be better allocated to teaching kids well and with better teacher:student class ratios?

Thanks. OP

any FCPS teachers' perspectives on this?

Their solution to this at the middle school level was to make honors open enrollment. It has been handled differently by each school (some allow anyone to move classes at any point in the year, some let you sign up for anything but then you're stuck there, some try to encourage more honors, some try to discourage it), so it's hard to make blanket statements. In my experience though, all kids want to say they are in honors, and all parents want their kid in honors to be around the kids they perceive to be more motivated/dedicated. That means I have kids who failed their 6th grade math SOL sitting in math 7 honors. Kids who failed their math 7 SOL sitting in algebra. They struggle all year because I cannot teach 2-3 years of math to them in a group setting in one year, and many of them end up repeating algebra in high school because they lack foundational understanding of the math concepts.

My peers who have been teaching longer than I have will tell you that AAP is what honors used to be and honors has been slowed to what gen ed used to be due to the open enrollment and pressure to not allow anyone to fail.

So would it be helpful to have AAP for all FCPS kids so that it does not lead to the problems you noted with the open enrollment option for all classes in middle school?

This inconsistency must make it difficult for middle school teachers. (What happens after middle school - open AP/honors enrollment again?)

No, I do not think AAP for all would solve this--I think it would just push the problem to an earlier level. I am a math teacher so that's my focus (it may very well be an English teacher had a completely different viewpoint). In 3rd grade when they are splitting up the kids for AAP, some kids are still learning to skip count, some are working on multiplication, and others are capable of doing prealgebra. The idea that everyone can access the advanced math curriculum is unrealistic, and does a disservice to kids who need foundational math supports. Exposing kids to advanced math before they are ready provides no long term benefits, and leads to memorizing procedures rather than deeper understanding that they can build on in middle school and high school.

In high school there is no more AAP. You can sign up for whatever classes you want regardless of level--honors/gen ed/AP/IB.

Why do you see such diverse knowledge of basic math acquired between K-2? unlikely to be simply based on kids’ aptitudes? and wouldn’t it better to address any inconsistency in syllabus or knowledge gaps early on?

Every brain is unique and every child develops uniquely.

[Anonymous]

I was the kid who struggled with skip counting, well all math. My son was laying out Lincoln logs to show how multiplication worked when he was 4. He didn't call it multiplication, he just was goofing off with grouping the logs in piles and figuring out how you could get to the same number with different combos. We process information very differently. I was not ready for AAP in third grade, I think my child is. I did take, and pass, AP classes/exams and went on to earn a PhD. It took me longer to grasp and apply concepts then it takes my son at the same age but I turned out just fine. The vast majority of kids whose parents are involved and engaged will go on to do well regardless of language immersion, gen ed, or AAP.

There are some kids who are ready for deeper dives into material or who can move faster then others and there is nothing wrong with that. AAP is meant to challenge those kids, hopefully. Then there are kids who would be lost in those classes and feel frustrated and fall behind. Asking Teachers to try and differentiate across the wide spectrum of kids abilities at this age is not going to help the kids or the Teachers. Heck, there are people who complain that there is not enough differentiation in AAP and that their kids are doing worksheets and working on computers while other kids are working with the teacher all the time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most probable reason would be that residents of Fairfax county does not want to increase in taxes to support addtional teachers to provide AAP at all schools

Taxpayers don't want to pay more, but that's irrelevant to AAP. AAP classes get one teacher, just like gen ed classes.

and who is going to pay for that additional AAP teacher at every school by grade?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most probable reason would be that residents of Fairfax county does not want to increase in taxes to support addtional teachers to provide AAP at all schools

Taxpayers don't want to pay more, but that's irrelevant to AAP. AAP classes get one teacher, just like gen ed classes.

and who is going to pay for that additional AAP teacher at every school by grade?

There are no "additional" AAP teachers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most probable reason would be that residents of Fairfax county does not want to increase in taxes to support addtional teachers to provide AAP at all schools

Taxpayers don't want to pay more, but that's irrelevant to AAP. AAP classes get one teacher, just like gen ed classes.

and who is going to pay for that additional AAP teacher at every school by grade?

AAP kids are grouped into their own class, Instead of hiring a third gen ed teacher at a local level IV program, the school has 2 gen ed classes and 1 AAP class. Still three teachers. There is no additional cost.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was the kid who struggled with skip counting, well all math. My son was laying out Lincoln logs to show how multiplication worked when he was 4. He didn't call it multiplication, he just was goofing off with grouping the logs in piles and figuring out how you could get to the same number with different combos. We process information very differently. I was not ready for AAP in third grade, I think my child is. I did take, and pass, AP classes/exams and went on to earn a PhD. It took me longer to grasp and apply concepts then it takes my son at the same age but I turned out just fine. The vast majority of kids whose parents are involved and engaged will go on to do well regardless of language immersion, gen ed, or AAP.

There are some kids who are ready for deeper dives into material or who can move faster then others and there is nothing wrong with that. AAP is meant to challenge those kids, hopefully. Then there are kids who would be lost in those classes and feel frustrated and fall behind. Asking Teachers to try and differentiate across the wide spectrum of kids abilities at this age is not going to help the kids or the Teachers. Heck, there are people who complain that there is not enough differentiation in AAP and that their kids are doing worksheets and working on computers while other kids are working with the teacher all the time.

How and at when did you accelerate and move ahead? which teachers helped you with that? do you have any suggestions on a good model for that?

You make a good point of ensuring that kids are not struggling with any curriculum. But, presently open enrollment in honors in middle school is having many teachers manage classrooms with 2-4 years of knowledge gaps in the same large group of students, as parents want honors enrollment for many kids. So it seems that supporting kids early in elementary school with a good academic program and basic concepts can prevent the same problems of stuggling kids and overwhelmed teachers further ahead.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was the kid who struggled with skip counting, well all math. My son was laying out Lincoln logs to show how multiplication worked when he was 4. He didn't call it multiplication, he just was goofing off with grouping the logs in piles and figuring out how you could get to the same number with different combos. We process information very differently. I was not ready for AAP in third grade, I think my child is. I did take, and pass, AP classes/exams and went on to earn a PhD. It took me longer to grasp and apply concepts then it takes my son at the same age but I turned out just fine. The vast majority of kids whose parents are involved and engaged will go on to do well regardless of language immersion, gen ed, or AAP.

There are some kids who are ready for deeper dives into material or who can move faster then others and there is nothing wrong with that. AAP is meant to challenge those kids, hopefully. Then there are kids who would be lost in those classes and feel frustrated and fall behind. Asking Teachers to try and differentiate across the wide spectrum of kids abilities at this age is not going to help the kids or the Teachers. Heck, there are people who complain that there is not enough differentiation in AAP and that their kids are doing worksheets and working on computers while other kids are working with the teacher all the time.

How and at when did you accelerate and move ahead? which teachers helped you with that? do you have any suggestions on a good model for that?

You make a good point of ensuring that kids are not struggling with any curriculum. But, presently open enrollment in honors in middle school is having many teachers manage classrooms with 2-4 years of knowledge gaps in the same large group of students, as parents want honors enrollment for many kids. So it seems that supporting kids early in elementary school with a good academic program and basic concepts can prevent the same problems of stuggling kids and overwhelmed teachers further ahead.

I think you're trying to have the schools address a situation that they cannot adequately address.

While social environment is a factor, most of what causes a kid to learn at a certain pace has to with how his or her brain is wired. No academic program is going to change that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was the kid who struggled with skip counting, well all math. My son was laying out Lincoln logs to show how multiplication worked when he was 4. He didn't call it multiplication, he just was goofing off with grouping the logs in piles and figuring out how you could get to the same number with different combos. We process information very differently. I was not ready for AAP in third grade, I think my child is. I did take, and pass, AP classes/exams and went on to earn a PhD. It took me longer to grasp and apply concepts then it takes my son at the same age but I turned out just fine. The vast majority of kids whose parents are involved and engaged will go on to do well regardless of language immersion, gen ed, or AAP.

There are some kids who are ready for deeper dives into material or who can move faster then others and there is nothing wrong with that. AAP is meant to challenge those kids, hopefully. Then there are kids who would be lost in those classes and feel frustrated and fall behind. Asking Teachers to try and differentiate across the wide spectrum of kids abilities at this age is not going to help the kids or the Teachers. Heck, there are people who complain that there is not enough differentiation in AAP and that their kids are doing worksheets and working on computers while other kids are working with the teacher all the time.

How and at when did you accelerate and move ahead? which teachers helped you with that? do you have any suggestions on a good model for that?

You make a good point of ensuring that kids are not struggling with any curriculum. But, presently open enrollment in honors in middle school is having many teachers manage classrooms with 2-4 years of knowledge gaps in the same large group of students, as parents want honors enrollment for many kids. So it seems that supporting kids early in elementary school with a good academic program and basic concepts can prevent the same problems of stuggling kids and overwhelmed teachers further ahead.

My Mom fought for me to receive support at school and spent a lot of time working with me on my homework. We figured out that I was able to do better on tests when I took them by myself and could talk out loud to myself. Classes that I was getting C's and D's in turned into B's once I had untimed testing in a quiet location. I rarely needed the extra time but I needed the quiet space to talk out loud. It turns out that I process verbally and when I was answering orally my answers were more through and organized. I also stopped skipping steps, I think because talking out loud forced me to slow down and decreased my getting ahead of myself.

I took a slower math path, Algebra, Algebra 2, and then Geometry. I did not take Math in my senior year. I took Chemistry, biology, Earth Science, and Anatomy for sciences. I attended a very good liberal arts college with smaller classes and my Professors there were very supportive.

My Mom fought hard for me to receive 30 minutes a day support outside the classroom. She insisted that I had access to Teachers for tutoring and support, I would go before or after school. And I worked with tutors when I needed to.

And the reality is that my LD's were relatively moderate and my parents could afford to find me the supports I needed. And I was always strong in English, reading, and social science. So I had parts of school that were easy for me which probably helped prevent me from becoming overly discouraged. It also gave me a more clear path for college and later Graduate School.

I agree with your last point. Too many parents are focused on AAP or honors or advanced classes. I took AP and Honors classes in my strong areas, English Literature and History. I took a slower path for math and science because those were a challenge for me. There is no way my parents would push me into Honors Math and Science, we threw a party when I got a C in stats at college. I think that was the proudest my parents have been at me, I got a C in a college level math class. Too many people are caught up in kids getting into prestige college X. There are a lot of good colleges and Universities out there that are not on everyones radar. All that matters is that you graduate from an accredited college with your degree. It helps some people to graduate from Harvard or Michigan or UCLA but the vast majority of people are successful and do fine in their adult life with degrees, or no degree, from a College that most people have not heard of.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was the kid who struggled with skip counting, well all math. My son was laying out Lincoln logs to show how multiplication worked when he was 4. He didn't call it multiplication, he just was goofing off with grouping the logs in piles and figuring out how you could get to the same number with different combos. We process information very differently. I was not ready for AAP in third grade, I think my child is. I did take, and pass, AP classes/exams and went on to earn a PhD. It took me longer to grasp and apply concepts then it takes my son at the same age but I turned out just fine. The vast majority of kids whose parents are involved and engaged will go on to do well regardless of language immersion, gen ed, or AAP.

There are some kids who are ready for deeper dives into material or who can move faster then others and there is nothing wrong with that. AAP is meant to challenge those kids, hopefully. Then there are kids who would be lost in those classes and feel frustrated and fall behind. Asking Teachers to try and differentiate across the wide spectrum of kids abilities at this age is not going to help the kids or the Teachers. Heck, there are people who complain that there is not enough differentiation in AAP and that their kids are doing worksheets and working on computers while other kids are working with the teacher all the time.

How and at when did you accelerate and move ahead? which teachers helped you with that? do you have any suggestions on a good model for that?

You make a good point of ensuring that kids are not struggling with any curriculum. But, presently open enrollment in honors in middle school is having many teachers manage classrooms with 2-4 years of knowledge gaps in the same large group of students, as parents want honors enrollment for many kids. So it seems that supporting kids early in elementary school with a good academic program and basic concepts can prevent the same problems of stuggling kids and overwhelmed teachers further ahead.

I think you're trying to have the schools address a situation that they cannot adequately address.

While social environment is a factor, most of what causes a kid to learn at a certain pace has to with how his or her brain is wired. No academic program is going to change that.

This is key. A lot of people want to believe that children’s brains are like open buckets that you can just pour information into. That is simply not the case. Kids learn in many different ways and at many different paces. And they have different degrees of ability to learn new information, and to understand and apply that information.

Kids have different needs and capabilities and education cannot be one size fits all. Just presenting advanced information in the classroom at earlier ages doesn’t meet every child’s needs. AAP for all is just as inappropriate as the general classroom is for all.

[Anonymous]

Op, I get it. No student should be denied the opportunity to reach their potential.

Do not allow the proponents of "Gifted Education" to have you doubt what you know should be the right thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Op, I get it. No student should be denied the opportunity to reach their potential.

Do not allow the proponents of "Gifted Education" to have you doubt what you know should be the right thing.

You must be new here. This isn't a forum for proponents of Gifted Education. It's mostly for people to attack AAP and AAP kids.