Hardy MS

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's obviously not fine. If it were, the high-performing suburban schools in this Metro area would go with 9th and 10th grade Honors for Al. They manifestly do not.

That is a ridiculous response.

Why is it ridiculous? You can't invent your own best practices to best serve your most advanced students like this. When you dumb down your curriculum for students who could reasonably aspire to attend the nation's top universities and liberal arts colleges, these kids will obviously struggle to compete down the track. Nobody would argue that banning traveling sports teams for DC teenagers would constitute best practices in preparing students to play college ball. By the same token, Honors for All constitutes weak prep for the strongest students.

I think that logic requires that we agree with your assessment of the academic trajectory of Wilson's policy; however, most DC parents would probably disagree with your assessment of HOW bad the result is. I believe most studies show that the strongest students are not noticeably adversely affected, academically, by mainstream classrooms; the only question is what opportunities to improve are they losing by being mainstreamed. I think most parents, in DC anyway, won't think that "undefined academic loss" is harmful enough to flee...at least with respect to Wilson HS, anyway. That undefined loss also does not account for the social benefit that kids gain from being in a mainstream class, especially in an urban environment.

Do you think Wilson should cut advanced classes?

Wilson isn't cutting advanced classes. They offer 28 AP classes, and students can also dual-enroll at a local university. The Wilson-part of this thread is full of hysterical people. I think it also needs a sock-puppeting check.

But if, according to you, it’s OK to have everyone in the same classes (to “mainstream” the stronger students), then why bother having APs or any advanced offerings?

Why? Because it turns out that your kids and mine - the usual suspects that are offered and take AP and Honors classes - aren't all that special. There is in fact a much broader group of kids that can take these same classes and succeed.

+1. And if your kid is truly more outstanding than everyone else, the AP exam scores will reflect that. And those scores can be submitted to any college you apply to, as an extra piece of information, if you wish.

All rainbows and kittens with Honors for All and AP for all who waltz in. Not.

As somebody whose has taught AP humanities classes in low, medium and high-performing schools, I can assure you that your student's chances of earning a 4 or 5 are higher, much higher, if almost almost all the class members can score a 4 or 5 with work, versus, a fraction of the class. Most kids need high-performing classes and peers to push them all the way from around 3rd grade to 12th. Only a minority, maybe 15-20% can and will push themselves without outside prep where a peer group isn't pushing and parents aren't paying for extra prep. Buyer beware.

Well said.

+1000 and could not agree more.

In the higher grades, peer group is a huge factor. If you have all advanced students in a class who are motivated, it motivates and pushes the other students to do better. In addition, the teacher can easily modify the course to be even more challenging. That’s for AP classes, honors classes, etc..

In contrast, let’s throw together a class where students are 3-4 academic levels apart. Ask any teacher if they are able to effectively differentiate with that wide of a spread. They can’t and the higher performing students will either be bored or on chrome books a large portion of the day. They will not be challenged to their full potential. For we know where DCPS goals lie and where it places the pressure on teachers and that is to close the achievement gap with focus on the lower performing kids.

DCPS teaches somewhere in the middle, like most public school systems in the country it is for the masses, wherever that may lie. Parents of students at both ends of the spectrum both argue that the school system doesn't serve them well, which is probably true but that is what a free public school system generally does. One can however argue whether DCPS even does that well

[Anonymous]

Based on the only data we have, there really aren't many 'advanced' students at Wilson.

411 Wilson sophomores took the English 2 PARCC in 2017-18.

Only 3.9% of them scored 5 (16 students -- out of 411!).

[Not going to do the math PARCC since so many different versions are given in different years.]

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's obviously not fine. If it were, the high-performing suburban schools in this Metro area would go with 9th and 10th grade Honors for Al. They manifestly do not.

That is a ridiculous response.

Why is it ridiculous? You can't invent your own best practices to best serve your most advanced students like this. When you dumb down your curriculum for students who could reasonably aspire to attend the nation's top universities and liberal arts colleges, these kids will obviously struggle to compete down the track. Nobody would argue that banning traveling sports teams for DC teenagers would constitute best practices in preparing students to play college ball. By the same token, Honors for All constitutes weak prep for the strongest students.

I think that logic requires that we agree with your assessment of the academic trajectory of Wilson's policy; however, most DC parents would probably disagree with your assessment of HOW bad the result is. I believe most studies show that the strongest students are not noticeably adversely affected, academically, by mainstream classrooms; the only question is what opportunities to improve are they losing by being mainstreamed. I think most parents, in DC anyway, won't think that "undefined academic loss" is harmful enough to flee...at least with respect to Wilson HS, anyway. That undefined loss also does not account for the social benefit that kids gain from being in a mainstream class, especially in an urban environment.

Do you think Wilson should cut advanced classes?

Wilson isn't cutting advanced classes. They offer 28 AP classes, and students can also dual-enroll at a local university. The Wilson-part of this thread is full of hysterical people. I think it also needs a sock-puppeting check.

But if, according to you, it’s OK to have everyone in the same classes (to “mainstream” the stronger students), then why bother having APs or any advanced offerings?

Why? Because it turns out that your kids and mine - the usual suspects that are offered and take AP and Honors classes - aren't all that special. There is in fact a much broader group of kids that can take these same classes and succeed.

+1. And if your kid is truly more outstanding than everyone else, the AP exam scores will reflect that. And those scores can be submitted to any college you apply to, as an extra piece of information, if you wish.

All rainbows and kittens with Honors for All and AP for all who waltz in. Not.

As somebody whose has taught AP humanities classes in low, medium and high-performing schools, I can assure you that your student's chances of earning a 4 or 5 are higher, much higher, if almost almost all the class members can score a 4 or 5 with work, versus, a fraction of the class. Most kids need high-performing classes and peers to push them all the way from around 3rd grade to 12th. Only a minority, maybe 15-20% can and will push themselves without outside prep where a peer group isn't pushing and parents aren't paying for extra prep. Buyer beware.

Well said.

+1000 and could not agree more.

In the higher grades, peer group is a huge factor. If you have all advanced students in a class who are motivated, it motivates and pushes the other students to do better. In addition, the teacher can easily modify the course to be even more challenging. That’s for AP classes, honors classes, etc..

In contrast, let’s throw together a class where students are 3-4 academic levels apart. Ask any teacher if they are able to effectively differentiate with that wide of a spread. They can’t and the higher performing students will either be bored or on chrome books a large portion of the day. They will not be challenged to their full potential. For we know where DCPS goals lie and where it places the pressure on teachers and that is to close the achievement gap with focus on the lower performing kids.

DCPS teaches somewhere in the middle, like most public school systems in the country it is for the masses, wherever that may lie. Parents of students at both ends of the spectrum both argue that the school system doesn't serve them well, which is probably true but that is what a free public school system generally does. One can however argue whether DCPS even does that well

I disagree. The overwhelmingly majority of high schools in the country offer MULTIPLE levels of the same course. They don’t teach to the middle. The kids are placed in the level that best fits their academic abilities. In fact, this tracking starts in middle school. Just look next door at our neighbors, VA and MD and their high school offerings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Based on the only data we have, there really aren't many 'advanced' students at Wilson.

411 Wilson sophomores took the English 2 PARCC in 2017-18.

Only 3.9% of them scored 5 (16 students -- out of 411!).

[Not going to do the math PARCC since so many different versions are given in different years.]

Please disregard. Grabbed wrong line.

But the real number...isn't much better

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's obviously not fine. If it were, the high-performing suburban schools in this Metro area would go with 9th and 10th grade Honors for Al. They manifestly do not.

That is a ridiculous response.

Why is it ridiculous? You can't invent your own best practices to best serve your most advanced students like this. When you dumb down your curriculum for students who could reasonably aspire to attend the nation's top universities and liberal arts colleges, these kids will obviously struggle to compete down the track. Nobody would argue that banning traveling sports teams for DC teenagers would constitute best practices in preparing students to play college ball. By the same token, Honors for All constitutes weak prep for the strongest students.

I think that logic requires that we agree with your assessment of the academic trajectory of Wilson's policy; however, most DC parents would probably disagree with your assessment of HOW bad the result is. I believe most studies show that the strongest students are not noticeably adversely affected, academically, by mainstream classrooms; the only question is what opportunities to improve are they losing by being mainstreamed. I think most parents, in DC anyway, won't think that "undefined academic loss" is harmful enough to flee...at least with respect to Wilson HS, anyway. That undefined loss also does not account for the social benefit that kids gain from being in a mainstream class, especially in an urban environment.

Do you think Wilson should cut advanced classes?

Wilson isn't cutting advanced classes. They offer 28 AP classes, and students can also dual-enroll at a local university. The Wilson-part of this thread is full of hysterical people. I think it also needs a sock-puppeting check.

But if, according to you, it’s OK to have everyone in the same classes (to “mainstream” the stronger students), then why bother having APs or any advanced offerings?

Why? Because it turns out that your kids and mine - the usual suspects that are offered and take AP and Honors classes - aren't all that special. There is in fact a much broader group of kids that can take these same classes and succeed.

+1. And if your kid is truly more outstanding than everyone else, the AP exam scores will reflect that. And those scores can be submitted to any college you apply to, as an extra piece of information, if you wish.

All rainbows and kittens with Honors for All and AP for all who waltz in. Not.

As somebody whose has taught AP humanities classes in low, medium and high-performing schools, I can assure you that your student's chances of earning a 4 or 5 are higher, much higher, if almost almost all the class members can score a 4 or 5 with work, versus, a fraction of the class. Most kids need high-performing classes and peers to push them all the way from around 3rd grade to 12th. Only a minority, maybe 15-20% can and will push themselves without outside prep where a peer group isn't pushing and parents aren't paying for extra prep. Buyer beware.

Well said.

+1000 and could not agree more.

In the higher grades, peer group is a huge factor. If you have all advanced students in a class who are motivated, it motivates and pushes the other students to do better. In addition, the teacher can easily modify the course to be even more challenging. That’s for AP classes, honors classes, etc..

In contrast, let’s throw together a class where students are 3-4 academic levels apart. Ask any teacher if they are able to effectively differentiate with that wide of a spread. They can’t and the higher performing students will either be bored or on chrome books a large portion of the day. They will not be challenged to their full potential. For we know where DCPS goals lie and where it places the pressure on teachers and that is to close the achievement gap with focus on the lower performing kids.

DCPS teaches somewhere in the middle, like most public school systems in the country it is for the masses, wherever that may lie. Parents of students at both ends of the spectrum both argue that the school system doesn't serve them well, which is probably true but that is what a free public school system generally does. One can however argue whether DCPS even does that well

I disagree. The overwhelmingly majority of high schools in the country offer MULTIPLE levels of the same course. They don’t teach to the middle. The kids are placed in the level that best fits their academic abilities. In fact, this tracking starts in middle school. Just look next door at our neighbors, VA and MD and their high school offerings.

DC is a tiny school district with now too many schools to make this viable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's obviously not fine. If it were, the high-performing suburban schools in this Metro area would go with 9th and 10th grade Honors for Al. They manifestly do not.

That is a ridiculous response.

Why is it ridiculous? You can't invent your own best practices to best serve your most advanced students like this. When you dumb down your curriculum for students who could reasonably aspire to attend the nation's top universities and liberal arts colleges, these kids will obviously struggle to compete down the track. Nobody would argue that banning traveling sports teams for DC teenagers would constitute best practices in preparing students to play college ball. By the same token, Honors for All constitutes weak prep for the strongest students.

I think that logic requires that we agree with your assessment of the academic trajectory of Wilson's policy; however, most DC parents would probably disagree with your assessment of HOW bad the result is. I believe most studies show that the strongest students are not noticeably adversely affected, academically, by mainstream classrooms; the only question is what opportunities to improve are they losing by being mainstreamed. I think most parents, in DC anyway, won't think that "undefined academic loss" is harmful enough to flee...at least with respect to Wilson HS, anyway. That undefined loss also does not account for the social benefit that kids gain from being in a mainstream class, especially in an urban environment.

Do you think Wilson should cut advanced classes?

Wilson isn't cutting advanced classes. They offer 28 AP classes, and students can also dual-enroll at a local university. The Wilson-part of this thread is full of hysterical people. I think it also needs a sock-puppeting check.

But if, according to you, it’s OK to have everyone in the same classes (to “mainstream” the stronger students), then why bother having APs or any advanced offerings?

Why? Because it turns out that your kids and mine - the usual suspects that are offered and take AP and Honors classes - aren't all that special. There is in fact a much broader group of kids that can take these same classes and succeed.

+1. And if your kid is truly more outstanding than everyone else, the AP exam scores will reflect that. And those scores can be submitted to any college you apply to, as an extra piece of information, if you wish.

All rainbows and kittens with Honors for All and AP for all who waltz in. Not.

As somebody whose has taught AP humanities classes in low, medium and high-performing schools, I can assure you that your student's chances of earning a 4 or 5 are higher, much higher, if almost almost all the class members can score a 4 or 5 with work, versus, a fraction of the class. Most kids need high-performing classes and peers to push them all the way from around 3rd grade to 12th. Only a minority, maybe 15-20% can and will push themselves without outside prep where a peer group isn't pushing and parents aren't paying for extra prep. Buyer beware.

Well said.

+1000 and could not agree more.

In the higher grades, peer group is a huge factor. If you have all advanced students in a class who are motivated, it motivates and pushes the other students to do better. In addition, the teacher can easily modify the course to be even more challenging. That’s for AP classes, honors classes, etc..

In contrast, let’s throw together a class where students are 3-4 academic levels apart. Ask any teacher if they are able to effectively differentiate with that wide of a spread. They can’t and the higher performing students will either be bored or on chrome books a large portion of the day. They will not be challenged to their full potential. For we know where DCPS goals lie and where it places the pressure on teachers and that is to close the achievement gap with focus on the lower performing kids.

DCPS teaches somewhere in the middle, like most public school systems in the country it is for the masses, wherever that may lie. Parents of students at both ends of the spectrum both argue that the school system doesn't serve them well, which is probably true but that is what a free public school system generally does. One can however argue whether DCPS even does that well

I disagree. The overwhelmingly majority of high schools in the country offer MULTIPLE levels of the same course. They don’t teach to the middle. The kids are placed in the level that best fits their academic abilities. In fact, this tracking starts in middle school. Just look next door at our neighbors, VA and MD and their high school offerings.

DC is a tiny school district with now too many schools to make this viable.

dp: What?! DC is not as big as some very large districts, but there are many districts across the country that are either smaller or much smaller than DC that have much better schools.

What’s with all the excuses for DCPS’s failures?!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Based on the only data we have, there really aren't many 'advanced' students at Wilson.

411 Wilson sophomores took the English 2 PARCC in 2017-18.

Only 3.9% of them scored 5 (16 students -- out of 411!).

[Not going to do the math PARCC since so many different versions are given in different years.]

Please disregard. Grabbed wrong line.

But the real number...isn't much better

What’s the real number?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's obviously not fine. If it were, the high-performing suburban schools in this Metro area would go with 9th and 10th grade Honors for Al. They manifestly do not.

That is a ridiculous response.

Why is it ridiculous? You can't invent your own best practices to best serve your most advanced students like this. When you dumb down your curriculum for students who could reasonably aspire to attend the nation's top universities and liberal arts colleges, these kids will obviously struggle to compete down the track. Nobody would argue that banning traveling sports teams for DC teenagers would constitute best practices in preparing students to play college ball. By the same token, Honors for All constitutes weak prep for the strongest students.

I think that logic requires that we agree with your assessment of the academic trajectory of Wilson's policy; however, most DC parents would probably disagree with your assessment of HOW bad the result is. I believe most studies show that the strongest students are not noticeably adversely affected, academically, by mainstream classrooms; the only question is what opportunities to improve are they losing by being mainstreamed. I think most parents, in DC anyway, won't think that "undefined academic loss" is harmful enough to flee...at least with respect to Wilson HS, anyway. That undefined loss also does not account for the social benefit that kids gain from being in a mainstream class, especially in an urban environment.

Do you think Wilson should cut advanced classes?

Wilson isn't cutting advanced classes. They offer 28 AP classes, and students can also dual-enroll at a local university. The Wilson-part of this thread is full of hysterical people. I think it also needs a sock-puppeting check.

But if, according to you, it’s OK to have everyone in the same classes (to “mainstream” the stronger students), then why bother having APs or any advanced offerings?

Why? Because it turns out that your kids and mine - the usual suspects that are offered and take AP and Honors classes - aren't all that special. There is in fact a much broader group of kids that can take these same classes and succeed.

+1. And if your kid is truly more outstanding than everyone else, the AP exam scores will reflect that. And those scores can be submitted to any college you apply to, as an extra piece of information, if you wish.

All rainbows and kittens with Honors for All and AP for all who waltz in. Not.

As somebody whose has taught AP humanities classes in low, medium and high-performing schools, I can assure you that your student's chances of earning a 4 or 5 are higher, much higher, if almost almost all the class members can score a 4 or 5 with work, versus, a fraction of the class. Most kids need high-performing classes and peers to push them all the way from around 3rd grade to 12th. Only a minority, maybe 15-20% can and will push themselves without outside prep where a peer group isn't pushing and parents aren't paying for extra prep. Buyer beware.

Well said.

+1000 and could not agree more.

In the higher grades, peer group is a huge factor. If you have all advanced students in a class who are motivated, it motivates and pushes the other students to do better. In addition, the teacher can easily modify the course to be even more challenging. That’s for AP classes, honors classes, etc..

In contrast, let’s throw together a class where students are 3-4 academic levels apart. Ask any teacher if they are able to effectively differentiate with that wide of a spread. They can’t and the higher performing students will either be bored or on chrome books a large portion of the day. They will not be challenged to their full potential. For we know where DCPS goals lie and where it places the pressure on teachers and that is to close the achievement gap with focus on the lower performing kids.

DCPS teaches somewhere in the middle, like most public school systems in the country it is for the masses, wherever that may lie. Parents of students at both ends of the spectrum both argue that the school system doesn't serve them well, which is probably true but that is what a free public school system generally does. One can however argue whether DCPS even does that well

I disagree. The overwhelmingly majority of high schools in the country offer MULTIPLE levels of the same course. They don’t teach to the middle. The kids are placed in the level that best fits their academic abilities. In fact, this tracking starts in middle school. Just look next door at our neighbors, VA and MD and their high school offerings.

DC is a tiny school district with now too many schools to make this viable.

dp: What?! DC is not as big as some very large districts, but there are many districts across the country that are either smaller or much smaller than DC that have much better schools.

What’s with all the excuses for DCPS’s failures?!

DC is not a state, so other districts are organized and governed by states. It makes a difference!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's obviously not fine. If it were, the high-performing suburban schools in this Metro area would go with 9th and 10th grade Honors for Al. They manifestly do not.

That is a ridiculous response.

Why is it ridiculous? You can't invent your own best practices to best serve your most advanced students like this. When you dumb down your curriculum for students who could reasonably aspire to attend the nation's top universities and liberal arts colleges, these kids will obviously struggle to compete down the track. Nobody would argue that banning traveling sports teams for DC teenagers would constitute best practices in preparing students to play college ball. By the same token, Honors for All constitutes weak prep for the strongest students.

I think that logic requires that we agree with your assessment of the academic trajectory of Wilson's policy; however, most DC parents would probably disagree with your assessment of HOW bad the result is. I believe most studies show that the strongest students are not noticeably adversely affected, academically, by mainstream classrooms; the only question is what opportunities to improve are they losing by being mainstreamed. I think most parents, in DC anyway, won't think that "undefined academic loss" is harmful enough to flee...at least with respect to Wilson HS, anyway. That undefined loss also does not account for the social benefit that kids gain from being in a mainstream class, especially in an urban environment.

Do you think Wilson should cut advanced classes?

Wilson isn't cutting advanced classes. They offer 28 AP classes, and students can also dual-enroll at a local university. The Wilson-part of this thread is full of hysterical people. I think it also needs a sock-puppeting check.

But if, according to you, it’s OK to have everyone in the same classes (to “mainstream” the stronger students), then why bother having APs or any advanced offerings?

Why? Because it turns out that your kids and mine - the usual suspects that are offered and take AP and Honors classes - aren't all that special. There is in fact a much broader group of kids that can take these same classes and succeed.

+1. And if your kid is truly more outstanding than everyone else, the AP exam scores will reflect that. And those scores can be submitted to any college you apply to, as an extra piece of information, if you wish.

All rainbows and kittens with Honors for All and AP for all who waltz in. Not.

As somebody whose has taught AP humanities classes in low, medium and high-performing schools, I can assure you that your student's chances of earning a 4 or 5 are higher, much higher, if almost almost all the class members can score a 4 or 5 with work, versus, a fraction of the class. Most kids need high-performing classes and peers to push them all the way from around 3rd grade to 12th. Only a minority, maybe 15-20% can and will push themselves without outside prep where a peer group isn't pushing and parents aren't paying for extra prep. Buyer beware.

Well said.

+1000 and could not agree more.

In the higher grades, peer group is a huge factor. If you have all advanced students in a class who are motivated, it motivates and pushes the other students to do better. In addition, the teacher can easily modify the course to be even more challenging. That’s for AP classes, honors classes, etc..

In contrast, let’s throw together a class where students are 3-4 academic levels apart. Ask any teacher if they are able to effectively differentiate with that wide of a spread. They can’t and the higher performing students will either be bored or on chrome books a large portion of the day. They will not be challenged to their full potential. For we know where DCPS goals lie and where it places the pressure on teachers and that is to close the achievement gap with focus on the lower performing kids.

DCPS teaches somewhere in the middle, like most public school systems in the country it is for the masses, wherever that may lie. Parents of students at both ends of the spectrum both argue that the school system doesn't serve them well, which is probably true but that is what a free public school system generally does. One can however argue whether DCPS even does that well

I disagree. The overwhelmingly majority of high schools in the country offer MULTIPLE levels of the same course. They don’t teach to the middle. The kids are placed in the level that best fits their academic abilities. In fact, this tracking starts in middle school. Just look next door at our neighbors, VA and MD and their high school offerings.

DC is a tiny school district with now too many schools to make this viable.

dp: What?! DC is not as big as some very large districts, but there are many districts across the country that are either smaller or much smaller than DC that have much better schools.

What’s with all the excuses for DCPS’s failures?!

DC is not a state, so other districts are organized and governed by states. It makes a difference!

Uh no, other districts are typically organized at the county, city, or town level. Try again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's obviously not fine. If it were, the high-performing suburban schools in this Metro area would go with 9th and 10th grade Honors for Al. They manifestly do not.

That is a ridiculous response.

Why is it ridiculous? You can't invent your own best practices to best serve your most advanced students like this. When you dumb down your curriculum for students who could reasonably aspire to attend the nation's top universities and liberal arts colleges, these kids will obviously struggle to compete down the track. Nobody would argue that banning traveling sports teams for DC teenagers would constitute best practices in preparing students to play college ball. By the same token, Honors for All constitutes weak prep for the strongest students.

I think that logic requires that we agree with your assessment of the academic trajectory of Wilson's policy; however, most DC parents would probably disagree with your assessment of HOW bad the result is. I believe most studies show that the strongest students are not noticeably adversely affected, academically, by mainstream classrooms; the only question is what opportunities to improve are they losing by being mainstreamed. I think most parents, in DC anyway, won't think that "undefined academic loss" is harmful enough to flee...at least with respect to Wilson HS, anyway. That undefined loss also does not account for the social benefit that kids gain from being in a mainstream class, especially in an urban environment.

Do you think Wilson should cut advanced classes?

Wilson isn't cutting advanced classes. They offer 28 AP classes, and students can also dual-enroll at a local university. The Wilson-part of this thread is full of hysterical people. I think it also needs a sock-puppeting check.

But if, according to you, it’s OK to have everyone in the same classes (to “mainstream” the stronger students), then why bother having APs or any advanced offerings?

Why? Because it turns out that your kids and mine - the usual suspects that are offered and take AP and Honors classes - aren't all that special. There is in fact a much broader group of kids that can take these same classes and succeed.

+1. And if your kid is truly more outstanding than everyone else, the AP exam scores will reflect that. And those scores can be submitted to any college you apply to, as an extra piece of information, if you wish.

All rainbows and kittens with Honors for All and AP for all who waltz in. Not.

As somebody whose has taught AP humanities classes in low, medium and high-performing schools, I can assure you that your student's chances of earning a 4 or 5 are higher, much higher, if almost almost all the class members can score a 4 or 5 with work, versus, a fraction of the class. Most kids need high-performing classes and peers to push them all the way from around 3rd grade to 12th. Only a minority, maybe 15-20% can and will push themselves without outside prep where a peer group isn't pushing and parents aren't paying for extra prep. Buyer beware.

Well said.

+1000 and could not agree more.

In the higher grades, peer group is a huge factor. If you have all advanced students in a class who are motivated, it motivates and pushes the other students to do better. In addition, the teacher can easily modify the course to be even more challenging. That’s for AP classes, honors classes, etc..

In contrast, let’s throw together a class where students are 3-4 academic levels apart. Ask any teacher if they are able to effectively differentiate with that wide of a spread. They can’t and the higher performing students will either be bored or on chrome books a large portion of the day. They will not be challenged to their full potential. For we know where DCPS goals lie and where it places the pressure on teachers and that is to close the achievement gap with focus on the lower performing kids.

DCPS teaches somewhere in the middle, like most public school systems in the country it is for the masses, wherever that may lie. Parents of students at both ends of the spectrum both argue that the school system doesn't serve them well, which is probably true but that is what a free public school system generally does. One can however argue whether DCPS even does that well

I disagree. The overwhelmingly majority of high schools in the country offer MULTIPLE levels of the same course. They don’t teach to the middle. The kids are placed in the level that best fits their academic abilities. In fact, this tracking starts in middle school. Just look next door at our neighbors, VA and MD and their high school offerings.

Yes that’s how it is with our niece who is in NoVa, starting in middle school and up. Elementary there is G & T.

[Anonymous]

I'm bummed that Hardy's momentum is slowing in the wake of Honors for All. Pretty clearly, enthusiasm for Hardy has taken a hit, maybe not a big hit, but a hit. I no longer hear OOB families desperate for a decent public middle school waxing enthusiastic about Hardy like they did a couple years back. We have in-boundary friends with very bright kids who have surprised us by giving up and moving to the burbs this summer. They don't like the publicity Principal Martin gets. Anecdotal evidence to be sure, but of concern nonetheless.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm bummed that Hardy's momentum is slowing in the wake of Honors for All. Pretty clearly, enthusiasm for Hardy has taken a hit, maybe not a big hit, but a hit. I no longer hear OOB families desperate for a decent public middle school waxing enthusiastic about Hardy like they did a couple years back. We have in-boundary friends with very bright kids who have surprised us by giving up and moving to the burbs this summer. They don't like the publicity Principal Martin gets. Anecdotal evidence to be sure, but of concern nonetheless.

You mean slowing on this thread? Not much space left for OOB, what's there to be enthusiastic about. We are not moving even if DC has to go to Wilson.

[Anonymous]

Same here.

Granted, the journey through Hardy and Wilson looks more expensive than it used to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm bummed that Hardy's momentum is slowing in the wake of Honors for All. Pretty clearly, enthusiasm for Hardy has taken a hit, maybe not a big hit, but a hit. I no longer hear OOB families desperate for a decent public middle school waxing enthusiastic about Hardy like they did a couple years back. We have in-boundary friends with very bright kids who have surprised us by giving up and moving to the burbs this summer. They don't like the publicity Principal Martin gets. Anecdotal evidence to be sure, but of concern nonetheless.

You mean slowing on this thread? Not much space left for OOB, what's there to be enthusiastic about. We are not moving even if DC has to go to Wilson.

PP needs to stop talking to people and look at the data. Demand for Hardy is strong and seems to be growing. More OOB are applying, and more students from the feeder schools are continuing.

6th grade OOB spaces offered in round one / initial waiting list https://public.tableau.com/profile/aaron2446#!/vizhome/MSDCSeatsandWaitlistOfferData/MSDCPublicDisplay

2017-18 20/147
2018-19 15/192
2019-20 20/242

[Anonymous]

Re Wilson - I don't think Principal Martin is going anywhere, because the trend in PARCC data is strongly on her side. Perhaps some of the growth should be attributed to demographic changes, but there is truly evidence that Honors for All is hurting anyone.
PARCC ELA (excluding math since the data is less standard with not all 10th graders testing or using the same exam

2015-16 Percent at Level 1/2/3/4/5

43.8%/18.2/17/17/3.9

2016-17

18.9/11.4/15.6/34/19

2017-18

18.1/11.4/15.4/33/22

IMO, the other relevant metric is to watch is Wilson's average SAT scores. The first students to go through Honors for All haven't yet taken the school-based SAT; will do so in 2019-20.

https://osse.dc.gov/page/2017-18-parcc-results-and-resources