Claiming a disability on the SAT/ACT - have people been gaming the system?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Why do we have accommodations at all, except in severe cases? I understand if you're blind and need the test read to you, or you have a phsyical disability and can't easily fill in the circles on the sheet -- then extra time seems warranted.

But isn't the goal of the test to measure against other students? Why not have the same testing environment for all then? I realize some will score poorer than others, but isn't that exactly what it's trying to measure?

As an employer, if an aptitude test reflects your job duties, then it's useful to know how much you can accomplish within a fixed amount of time, because that's part of the job.

Would you make a kid who wears glasses take them off to take the test? Other kids are not allowed to have magnifiers so why let the kid with glasses wear them?

The accommodations level the playing field. I have one severe ADD kid and one non-ADD kid. The ADD kid will have to re-read the question over and over again because she forgot what she just read or will become hyper focused on a cough or something else. The non-ADD kid doesn't notice someone coughing and has normal ability to regulate her concentration. ADD is the inability to regulate focus it actually doesn't mean that they can never focus they just have less control on what they focus on.

No, I wrote that a physical disability should be accommodated, like needing to wear glasses.

It's the ADD example that I'm focusing on (no pun intended). Some people take longer than others; some do math better than others; some write better than others. These should all be reflected in the test results, and they are _except_ the "some people take longer time" -- they get accomodations.

I'm not great at math -- should I be allowed to use a calculator while the others are not? Hardly seems fair.

So a person who is blind gets a reader but a person with dyslexia should not?

That's how it works in real life. If you ride the Metro, they have information available in braille and other accommodations for blind people, but I don't see any accommodations being made for dyslexics.

The metro uses audio alerts for someone who could not read.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DDs experience was exactly opposite. She’s had verified testing and accommodations since age 8. And lengthy neuropsych testing and reports every 3 years. She was denied extra time on the ACT. Our appeals were denied. (My full time day job is writing appellate briefs — usually successfully.) She’s since graduated college (where she chose not to continue accommodations) and is well employed. So I’d love to know how so many others were able to get accommodations.

That is super frustrating.

I have a child who has multiple disabilities (4!) and most certainly is not gaming the system. We have documentation going back to K. Stacks and stacks and stacks of IEPs, testing and letters from specialists. He was denied extended time by the college boards. Now we’re doing yet another round of expensive testing we can’t afford. We were told that since we were already rejected on appeal it’s a long shot but DC cannot possibly complete his AP or SAT in the allotted time so what else can we do. He’s a bright kid and hardworker and I’m angry he’s in the position where he might be limited in college admissions. I know he could take the ACT instead but we don’t dare apply for accommodations without making sure we have dotted every i and crossed every t.

I’m sure there are some rich people gaming the system but there are more middle class families like ours that aren’t getting a fair shake. First we had to scrape together money for expensive therapies and intervention because MCPS failed our child. And now this! It’s too much!

All I can say is karma will get those people cheating the system. Please don’t start doubting the authenticity of your child’s peers.

MCPS service are a joke. You have a bunch of bad choices. Either spend the money to fight them and hope you win and get services or not wait and use that money to pay for services.

You're also not really doing a favor to your kid by pushing them into a school where they will need MORE accommodations. Teach him to accept and compensate for his weaknesses. If he's a "bright kid" and a "hardworker," he'll do just fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kids are at one of the so-called Big 3s here in DC. Two of my children have ADHD. Neither one of them gets accommodations because they need to learn how to handle it. They instead have an executive functioning coach. They are both in upper school now, and their grades are fine. Not stellar, but fine. One got into her first choice for college (not an Ivy or super-selective school).

My kids have told me that they think about 50% of the students get extra time. They say they don’t want it. But I am now wondering if I have somehow done them a disservice by not getting them accommodations. It’s a strange world.

The key here is that the world exists beyond college. So I would argue by not mowing down obstacles you have actually created a kids who will have learned to keep going even if they're not winning, to work harder than the next guy and advocate for what they want. My guess is at their 20th reunion, they will be far more successful than all those kids with accommodations who never learned to maneuver around and through problems.

There is a huge difference in just average kids and some of ours that have serious life long struggles. I hope my child will be more successful as he's had to fight and work harder than most other kids BUT, he can only do it as we have put a lot of time and money into getting him to where he needs to be. If a parent comes in at the 9th hour demanding accommodations for testing, then no, but some of our kids have had real challenges since birth. We've spent a fortune and put everything we have into making our kid that resilient kid who can work through it... you make it sound so simple. I wish it was. You have no idea what goes on behind the scenes in some families. We aren't talking about a parent in 9th who gets the kid tested for extra time.. that is fraud, but for some of us, instead of that nice house, fancy cars, nice vacations, we have huge therapy and tutoring bills and lucky for some of us, all that is working enough to get our kids to a higher functioning level.

[Anonymous]

The problem here are that the stakes are too damn high. Getting into an elite college does give you a much bigger leg up in life so parents rationally try to do whatever they can to increase the odds their kid will get in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DDs experience was exactly opposite. She’s had verified testing and accommodations since age 8. And lengthy neuropsych testing and reports every 3 years. She was denied extra time on the ACT. Our appeals were denied. (My full time day job is writing appellate briefs — usually successfully.) She’s since graduated college (where she chose not to continue accommodations) and is well employed. So I’d love to know how so many others were able to get accommodations.

That is super frustrating.

I have a child who has multiple disabilities (4!) and most certainly is not gaming the system. We have documentation going back to K. Stacks and stacks and stacks of IEPs, testing and letters from specialists. He was denied extended time by the college boards. Now we’re doing yet another round of expensive testing we can’t afford. We were told that since we were already rejected on appeal it’s a long shot but DC cannot possibly complete his AP or SAT in the allotted time so what else can we do. He’s a bright kid and hardworker and I’m angry he’s in the position where he might be limited in college admissions. I know he could take the ACT instead but we don’t dare apply for accommodations without making sure we have dotted every i and crossed every t.

I’m sure there are some rich people gaming the system but there are more middle class families like ours that aren’t getting a fair shake. First we had to scrape together money for expensive therapies and intervention because MCPS failed our child. And now this! It’s too much!

All I can say is karma will get those people cheating the system. Please don’t start doubting the authenticity of your child’s peers.

MCPS service are a joke. You have a bunch of bad choices. Either spend the money to fight them and hope you win and get services or not wait and use that money to pay for services.

You're also not really doing a favor to your kid by pushing them into a school where they will need MORE accommodations. Teach him to accept and compensate for his weaknesses. If he's a "bright kid" and a "hardworker," he'll do just fine.

My child is bright and a hard worker and is just fine right now BUT he is just fine because of all the help he gets at home and outside supports. He gets NOTHING at school. The IEP was so bad it was doing more harm than good so we removed it. But, reality is my child because of what is going on will always struggle, so fine is relative. You really don't understand some challenges and I'm not talking ASD/ADHD.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The problem here are that the stakes are too damn high. Getting into an elite college does give you a much bigger leg up in life so parents rationally try to do whatever they can to increase the odds their kid will get in.

Some of us are doing what we do just to get our kids to and through college, its not just about elite schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I posted on the other thread about my DS who scored a 35 on the ACT using time and a half. He had accommodations since 2nd grade when he was diagnosed with ADHD and slow processing. In summer prior to 8th grade, he was tested again, and the same diagnosis held, but with the processing speed improving slightly. He continued with his accommodations through 8th grade and high school. He had time and a half to take the ACT in February of his junior year and scored a 35 -- one and done. He has always been a strong test taker and very intelligent, so it did not come as a huge surprise, and we were thrilled. That summer, in preparation for possibility of need for accommodations in college, he had his third neuro-psych test. This test actually showed a very strong improvement in processing speed. Apparently this is something that can improve as the brain develops. We were thrilled to see this improvement and realized then that perhaps the accommodations he had for the ACT may not have been needed because of the stark improvement in processing speed. Perhaps that explains the high score. We will never know, but in our case, I would not say we "gamed the system." We just got lucky.

no, you did not get lucky. you gamed the system.

You can only do testing every few years so it isn't gaming the system. They have had documented concerns since 2nd grade. Different than someone coming in middle or high school demanding extra time.

I don't think anyone should get extended time for "low processing speed," period. I remember this PP and she has gone on before about how "brilliant" her DS is and how he is such as "strong" test taker ... even knowing that, she STILL finagled the extra time for the ACT. Totally gaming the system. What she had was a bright, quirky kid who seemed a little different as a younger kid, and she decided that she could not stand even the slightest difficulty for him.

Yes. I remember that thread. She was absolutely giddy about it. She seemed delighted in rubbing it in everyone’s faces that her ds got extra time. Something like “he would only get a 30 with no extra time”.

Yes. You can take a bright kid’s 30 and turn it into 35 with extra time. But the 30 is more accurate. It’s a good score. And there’s no shame in it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
The key here is that the world exists beyond college. So I would argue by not mowing down obstacles you have actually created a kids who will have learned to keep going even if they're not winning, to work harder than the next guy and advocate for what they want. My guess is at their 20th reunion, they will be far more successful than all those kids with accommodations who never learned to maneuver around and through problems.

Professor here. This is the issue I see. We should be preparing students for the real world. The real world is scary. There are people who will disagree with you. You may see a confederate flag or hear hateful words. I'm not for shoving this into students' faces, but having to put "trigger warnings" in a syllabus about how Hucleberry Finn contains the n-word seems a bit much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I posted on the other thread about my DS who scored a 35 on the ACT using time and a half. He had accommodations since 2nd grade when he was diagnosed with ADHD and slow processing. In summer prior to 8th grade, he was tested again, and the same diagnosis held, but with the processing speed improving slightly. He continued with his accommodations through 8th grade and high school. He had time and a half to take the ACT in February of his junior year and scored a 35 -- one and done. He has always been a strong test taker and very intelligent, so it did not come as a huge surprise, and we were thrilled. That summer, in preparation for possibility of need for accommodations in college, he had his third neuro-psych test. This test actually showed a very strong improvement in processing speed. Apparently this is something that can improve as the brain develops. We were thrilled to see this improvement and realized then that perhaps the accommodations he had for the ACT may not have been needed because of the stark improvement in processing speed. Perhaps that explains the high score. We will never know, but in our case, I would not say we "gamed the system." We just got lucky.

no, you did not get lucky. you gamed the system.

You can only do testing every few years so it isn't gaming the system. They have had documented concerns since 2nd grade. Different than someone coming in middle or high school demanding extra time.

I don't think anyone should get extended time for "low processing speed," period. I remember this PP and she has gone on before about how "brilliant" her DS is and how he is such as "strong" test taker ... even knowing that, she STILL finagled the extra time for the ACT. Totally gaming the system. What she had was a bright, quirky kid who seemed a little different as a younger kid, and she decided that she could not stand even the slightest difficulty for him.

You don't do neuropsych testing if everything is ok starting in 2nd grade. Do you realize the costs involved for the average family? You have no idea what some of the challenges some of our kids face.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem here are that the stakes are too damn high. Getting into an elite college does give you a much bigger leg up in life so parents rationally try to do whatever they can to increase the odds their kid will get in.

Some of us are doing what we do just to get our kids to and through college, its not just about elite schools.

Well that's the same thing. The difference in earning power between a kid who goes to college and one who doesn't is tremendous. If it was possible to make a living wage without a college degree, there would be a lot less pressure for all this maneuvering.

[Anonymous]

My oldest daughter took a math class at her elite NE boarding school where 40% of the kids had IEP/extra time. She found it frustrating because as she was struggling, there were many kids with bogus “disabilities” that had twice as much time to take tests.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The key here is that the world exists beyond college. So I would argue by not mowing down obstacles you have actually created a kids who will have learned to keep going even if they're not winning, to work harder than the next guy and advocate for what they want. My guess is at their 20th reunion, they will be far more successful than all those kids with accommodations who never learned to maneuver around and through problems.

Professor here. This is the issue I see. We should be preparing students for the real world. The real world is scary. There are people who will disagree with you. You may see a confederate flag or hear hateful words. I'm not for shoving this into students' faces, but having to put "trigger warnings" in a syllabus about how Hucleberry Finn contains the n-word seems a bit much.

The problem now is kids aren't prepared because the schools are not preparing them. The curriculum at MCPS is very poor. They don't teach basics like spelling, grammar or vocabulary, which all impact writing skills. They are so focused in math on strategies that they don't teach kids just to get the problems done. There is very little literature and almost no history or science in the elementary school level. There are no tests (or none beyond standardized testing) so kids don't learn to take notes or test taking skills. There is no preparation for the real world or even college anymore.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem here are that the stakes are too damn high. Getting into an elite college does give you a much bigger leg up in life so parents rationally try to do whatever they can to increase the odds their kid will get in.

Some of us are doing what we do just to get our kids to and through college, its not just about elite schools.

Well that's the same thing. The difference in earning power between a kid who goes to college and one who doesn't is tremendous. If it was possible to make a living wage without a college degree, there would be a lot less pressure for all this maneuvering.

My husband went to a no name school and is doing very well. I know others who go to Ivy's doing far worse. It really depends on the person, degree and in some professions ability to learn and actual skill. Some do amazingly well without degrees. Degrees and Ivy's aren't anything. My husband out earns my Ivy league sibling who is a doctor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I posted on the other thread about my DS who scored a 35 on the ACT using time and a half. He had accommodations since 2nd grade when he was diagnosed with ADHD and slow processing. In summer prior to 8th grade, he was tested again, and the same diagnosis held, but with the processing speed improving slightly. He continued with his accommodations through 8th grade and high school. He had time and a half to take the ACT in February of his junior year and scored a 35 -- one and done. He has always been a strong test taker and very intelligent, so it did not come as a huge surprise, and we were thrilled. That summer, in preparation for possibility of need for accommodations in college, he had his third neuro-psych test. This test actually showed a very strong improvement in processing speed. Apparently this is something that can improve as the brain develops. We were thrilled to see this improvement and realized then that perhaps the accommodations he had for the ACT may not have been needed because of the stark improvement in processing speed. Perhaps that explains the high score. We will never know, but in our case, I would not say we "gamed the system." We just got lucky.

no, you did not get lucky. you gamed the system.

You can only do testing every few years so it isn't gaming the system. They have had documented concerns since 2nd grade. Different than someone coming in middle or high school demanding extra time.

I don't think anyone should get extended time for "low processing speed," period. I remember this PP and she has gone on before about how "brilliant" her DS is and how he is such as "strong" test taker ... even knowing that, she STILL finagled the extra time for the ACT. Totally gaming the system. What she had was a bright, quirky kid who seemed a little different as a younger kid, and she decided that she could not stand even the slightest difficulty for him.

You don't do neuropsych testing if everything is ok starting in 2nd grade. Do you realize the costs involved for the average family? You have no idea what some of the challenges some of our kids face.

NP here. I think the trouble is that there's no black and white line for what constitutes a disability and where that leads you. DSM has many diagnostic criteria but its up to an individual doctor to make a qualitative assessment and it's a gray area at best for most learning and emotional issues. My personal concern isn't that your kid gets accommodations or and IEP or whatever to help him. My concern is that there are millions of other kids who don't get that help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do we have accommodations at all, except in severe cases? I understand if you're blind and need the test read to you, or you have a phsyical disability and can't easily fill in the circles on the sheet -- then extra time seems warranted.

But isn't the goal of the test to measure against other students? Why not have the same testing environment for all then? I realize some will score poorer than others, but isn't that exactly what it's trying to measure?

As an employer, if an aptitude test reflects your job duties, then it's useful to know how much you can accomplish within a fixed amount of time, because that's part of the job.

Because speed, for example, isn't necessarily an indicator that you can't do well in college. You will need to work harder if you have a disability to master the content, but you should not be deprived of the opportunity because of a discriminatory bar to entry.

As for work, time extensions do not apply. Large scale computer monitors, accessible buildings and so forth do. Most students with disabilities will find jobs that are compatible with theri disability.

My son with significant fine motor challenges has the aptitude and academic record to succeed as a biologist or attorney. He is absolutely NOT capable of being a surgeon (or a chef) and would receive no accommodation to let him enter that specialty.

Then why put a time limit on the test for any kids? My DS's processing speed score was 29th percentile, but he never got a diagnosis or accommodation for anything. He sure could use extra time on tests though.