How good does a kid have to be to make travel

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This discussion has become unproductive because people are making points that are outside of the scope of the original argument. Let be explain again so that you can follow:

There are strong classic/select teams that provide a better environment for making it to the A/B team of a club than C/D teams at the same clubs and are cheaper and less intrusive (don't require the travel commitment).

If your mission is the line the pockets of Bethesda, McLean, Bryce or Loundoun by spending $3,000/year to play in CCLII, NCSL (Below Div II) or EDP Premier III and IV with the 3rd and 4th string coach while spending 3+ hours in a car to play against weak competition then feel free to do so. What I am saying is that there are classic /select coaches that are strong coaches that will work with your kid and that will play the C/D team in tournaments and beat them.

If you have been around, you will recognize that stars from strong classic/select teams make the B and sometimes A teams every Spring at the U12-U14 ages and beat out players from the C and D teams. Based on my experience, I concluded early on that there is not a need to rush to travel at U10 if your kid is not on the A team and even if they are ready, the rubber does not hit the road until U12 at the earliest. Why burn out yourself or your at such an early age just so that you can brag that your kid is playing travel soccer.

“There are strong classic/select teams that provide a better environment for making it to the A/B team of a club than C/D teams at the same clubs and are cheaper and less intrusive (don't require the travel commitment).”

How does a successful NCSL 3rd Division former Classic team prove this? They beat clubs 3rd and 4th teams. Exactly how does that translate into any of these kids making a clubs A/B team? Once they joined NCSL they became a travel team and 3rd division in a second tier league is exactly where a top Classic team can ever hope to end up by 13 years old. Any higher than that is a stretch for all but the Unicorn of the group.

Are you capable of following an argument? Seriously?! That is the entire point of the discussion -- A good classic/select team is a cheaper option than the C/D team of a travel club. Why pay $3,000/year to play glorified classic teams when you can pay less than half that amount by playing classic and then move to Travel the next year and beat out the C/D players. Sorry but I have seen it too many times but if you want to continue paying $3,000 the be my guest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This discussion has become unproductive because people are making points that are outside of the scope of the original argument. Let be explain again so that you can follow:

There are strong classic/select teams that provide a better environment for making it to the A/B team of a club than C/D teams at the same clubs and are cheaper and less intrusive (don't require the travel commitment).

If your mission is the line the pockets of Bethesda, McLean, Bryce or Loundoun by spending $3,000/year to play in CCLII, NCSL (Below Div II) or EDP Premier III and IV with the 3rd and 4th string coach while spending 3+ hours in a car to play against weak competition then feel free to do so. What I am saying is that there are classic /select coaches that are strong coaches that will work with your kid and that will play the C/D team in tournaments and beat them.

If you have been around, you will recognize that stars from strong classic/select teams make the B and sometimes A teams every Spring at the U12-U14 ages and beat out players from the C and D teams. Based on my experience, I concluded early on that there is not a need to rush to travel at U10 if your kid is not on the A team and even if they are ready, the rubber does not hit the road until U12 at the earliest. Why burn out yourself or your at such an early age just so that you can brag that your kid is playing travel soccer.

“There are strong classic/select teams that provide a better environment for making it to the A/B team of a club than C/D teams at the same clubs and are cheaper and less intrusive (don't require the travel commitment).”

How does a successful NCSL 3rd Division former Classic team prove this? They beat clubs 3rd and 4th teams. Exactly how does that translate into any of these kids making a clubs A/B team? Once they joined NCSL they became a travel team and 3rd division in a second tier league is exactly where a top Classic team can ever hope to end up by 13 years old. Any higher than that is a stretch for all but the Unicorn of the group.

Are you capable of following an argument? Seriously?! That is the entire point of the discussion -- A good classic/select team is a cheaper option than the C/D team of a travel club. Why pay $3,000/year to play glorified classic teams when you can pay less than half that amount by playing classic and then move to Travel the next year and beat out the C/D players. Sorry but I have seen it too many times but if you want to continue paying $3,000 the be my guest.

Nobody said that they couldn't beat C/D teams and that was never your point. I will copy and paste your statement for a second time:
“There are strong classic/select teams that provide a better environment for making it to the A/B team of a club than C/D teams at the same clubs and are cheaper and less intrusive (don't require the travel commitment).”

Winning games in the 3rd Division of a second tier league does not mean any of the kids on that MSI team would make a A/B team at another club. If you want a cheaper alternative to train and become a successful C/D level team in a second tier league then YES MSI Classic is the way to go.

[Anonymous]

Factors that affect the developmental environment for a player (not necessarily in order):

A. Quality of Coach.
B. Level of teammates.
C. Quantity of Practice Time (#sessioins/week, #weeks/year, 60 v 90 min). Access to lighted turf fields will have a significant effect on this.
D. Level of competition.

B, C & D will almost always be better on a travel team than a rec or classic team, but there are situations in which the gap is not that large, and a significant difference in the quality of coach can more than make up for it. Really good rec/classic coaches also tend to keep more of their better players, which also makes a difference.

I have seen some exceptional rec/classic coaches over the years, who were better than many travel coaches. Usually (but not always) these are former players. Many of them have gotten their licenses, and the main reason they aren't coaching travel is just because their own kids don't have the aptitude and/or appetite for it. These types of coaches are the exception rather than the rule however. So while I agree that it would be folly to blindly send your U9-U12 kid to a C/D level travel team, just for the sake of it being "travel", the reality is that if you are comparing the quality of rec/classic coaches to C/D travel coaches overall, in the majority of cases the travel coaches are indeed better.

If you are talking about making an elite level team at U13/14 or higher though, the chances of doing that from a rec background are extremely low. [Andy Najar was not playing rec soccer. He was playing in adult men's leagues as a 15 year old.] I'll add another data point as a DA parent, exactly 1 player on my son's came from a B team at a big club. All of the rest of them were A team players from U9 up. The same is true with all of the other local DA teams in his age group, some may have a few more former B team players, but that's in part because of the difference in roster size from 7v7 to 11v11.

And no, RSD, the clubs don't keep data on that, so you can't access this information from a keyboard. The reason we parents know it is because we've been seeing each other on the sidelines at multiple tournaments per year for the last 6 years - not to mention futsal, 3v3, clinics, etc.... It's a small world. Some kids have moved from club to club, some have stayed at the same club, but it's been pretty much the same kids. Any DA parent will tell you the same. To dismiss that information as anecdotal evidence in the sense that it has no more value than someone saying "I knew a kid once .... " is a false equivalence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Factors that affect the developmental environment for a player (not necessarily in order):

A. Quality of Coach.
B. Level of teammates.
C. Quantity of Practice Time (#sessioins/week, #weeks/year, 60 v 90 min). Access to lighted turf fields will have a significant effect on this.
D. Level of competition.

B, C & D will almost always be better on a travel team than a rec or classic team, but there are situations in which the gap is not that large, and a significant difference in the quality of coach can more than make up for it. Really good rec/classic coaches also tend to keep more of their better players, which also makes a difference.

I have seen some exceptional rec/classic coaches over the years, who were better than many travel coaches. Usually (but not always) these are former players. Many of them have gotten their licenses, and the main reason they aren't coaching travel is just because their own kids don't have the aptitude and/or appetite for it. These types of coaches are the exception rather than the rule however. So while I agree that it would be folly to blindly send your U9-U12 kid to a C/D level travel team, just for the sake of it being "travel", the reality is that if you are comparing the quality of rec/classic coaches to C/D travel coaches overall, in the majority of cases the travel coaches are indeed better.

If you are talking about making an elite level team at U13/14 or higher though, the chances of doing that from a rec background are extremely low. [Andy Najar was not playing rec soccer. He was playing in adult men's leagues as a 15 year old.] I'll add another data point as a DA parent, exactly 1 player on my son's came from a B team at a big club. All of the rest of them were A team players from U9 up. The same is true with all of the other local DA teams in his age group, some may have a few more former B team players, but that's in part because of the difference in roster size from 7v7 to 11v11.

And no, RSD, the clubs don't keep data on that, so you can't access this information from a keyboard. The reason we parents know it is because we've been seeing each other on the sidelines at multiple tournaments per year for the last 6 years - not to mention futsal, 3v3, clinics, etc.... It's a small world. Some kids have moved from club to club, some have stayed at the same club, but it's been pretty much the same kids. Any DA parent will tell you the same. To dismiss that information as anecdotal evidence in the sense that it has no more value than someone saying "I knew a kid once .... " is a false equivalence.

Quality of coaching is most important in the early years.
Level of players surrounding them and playing against isn't a big deal until after U13. Go where the coaching/development is good. Don't be fooled by 'winning' U-littles.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Factors that affect the developmental environment for a player (not necessarily in order):

A. Quality of Coach.
B. Level of teammates.
C. Quantity of Practice Time (#sessioins/week, #weeks/year, 60 v 90 min). Access to lighted turf fields will have a significant effect on this.
D. Level of competition.

B, C & D will almost always be better on a travel team than a rec or classic team, but there are situations in which the gap is not that large, and a significant difference in the quality of coach can more than make up for it. Really good rec/classic coaches also tend to keep more of their better players, which also makes a difference.

I have seen some exceptional rec/classic coaches over the years, who were better than many travel coaches. Usually (but not always) these are former players. Many of them have gotten their licenses, and the main reason they aren't coaching travel is just because their own kids don't have the aptitude and/or appetite for it. These types of coaches are the exception rather than the rule however. So while I agree that it would be folly to blindly send your U9-U12 kid to a C/D level travel team, just for the sake of it being "travel", the reality is that if you are comparing the quality of rec/classic coaches to C/D travel coaches overall, in the majority of cases the travel coaches are indeed better.

If you are talking about making an elite level team at U13/14 or higher though, the chances of doing that from a rec background are extremely low. [Andy Najar was not playing rec soccer. He was playing in adult men's leagues as a 15 year old.] I'll add another data point as a DA parent, exactly 1 player on my son's came from a B team at a big club. All of the rest of them were A team players from U9 up. The same is true with all of the other local DA teams in his age group, some may have a few more former B team players, but that's in part because of the difference in roster size from 7v7 to 11v11.

And no, RSD, the clubs don't keep data on that, so you can't access this information from a keyboard. The reason we parents know it is because we've been seeing each other on the sidelines at multiple tournaments per year for the last 6 years - not to mention futsal, 3v3, clinics, etc.... It's a small world. Some kids have moved from club to club, some have stayed at the same club, but it's been pretty much the same kids. Any DA parent will tell you the same. To dismiss that information as anecdotal evidence in the sense that it has no more value than someone saying "I knew a kid once .... " is a false equivalence.

Quality of coaching is most important in the early years.
Level of players surrounding them and playing against isn't a big deal until after U13. Go where the coaching/development is good. Don't be fooled by 'winning' U-littles.

There is a reason why all of the kids came from A teams to the other pp's point. They never dip into the player pool. It's not necessarily superior talent as kids being passes on from year to year. They only cut these kids down the line in the much later years. Also, DA and such read the 'registration form' and a lot kids from smaller Clubs/lower teams to the field that nobody is watching at tryouts and ID sessions. It's always been the case that coaches pass players on and only advocate for certain ones. The pool is too large for them to 'waste' time. I don't think some of these kids are necessarily the smartest players either, but definitely had an early physical advantage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Factors that affect the developmental environment for a player (not necessarily in order):

A. Quality of Coach.
B. Level of teammates.
C. Quantity of Practice Time (#sessioins/week, #weeks/year, 60 v 90 min). Access to lighted turf fields will have a significant effect on this.
D. Level of competition.

B, C & D will almost always be better on a travel team than a rec or classic team, but there are situations in which the gap is not that large, and a significant difference in the quality of coach can more than make up for it. Really good rec/classic coaches also tend to keep more of their better players, which also makes a difference.

I have seen some exceptional rec/classic coaches over the years, who were better than many travel coaches. Usually (but not always) these are former players. Many of them have gotten their licenses, and the main reason they aren't coaching travel is just because their own kids don't have the aptitude and/or appetite for it. These types of coaches are the exception rather than the rule however. So while I agree that it would be folly to blindly send your U9-U12 kid to a C/D level travel team, just for the sake of it being "travel", the reality is that if you are comparing the quality of rec/classic coaches to C/D travel coaches overall, in the majority of cases the travel coaches are indeed better.

If you are talking about making an elite level team at U13/14 or higher though, the chances of doing that from a rec background are extremely low. [Andy Najar was not playing rec soccer. He was playing in adult men's leagues as a 15 year old.] I'll add another data point as a DA parent, exactly 1 player on my son's came from a B team at a big club. All of the rest of them were A team players from U9 up. The same is true with all of the other local DA teams in his age group, some may have a few more former B team players, but that's in part because of the difference in roster size from 7v7 to 11v11.

And no, RSD, the clubs don't keep data on that, so you can't access this information from a keyboard. The reason we parents know it is because we've been seeing each other on the sidelines at multiple tournaments per year for the last 6 years - not to mention futsal, 3v3, clinics, etc.... It's a small world. Some kids have moved from club to club, some have stayed at the same club, but it's been pretty much the same kids. Any DA parent will tell you the same. To dismiss that information as anecdotal evidence in the sense that it has no more value than someone saying "I knew a kid once .... " is a false equivalence.

Quality of coaching is most important in the early years.
Level of players surrounding them and playing against isn't a big deal until after U13. Go where the coaching/development is good. Don't be fooled by 'winning' U-littles.

There is a reason why all of the kids came from A teams to the other pp's point. They never dip into the player pool. It's not necessarily superior talent as kids being passes on from year to year. They only cut these kids down the line in the much later years. Also, DA and such read the 'registration form' and a lot kids from smaller Clubs/lower teams to the field that nobody is watching at tryouts and ID sessions. It's always been the case that coaches pass players on and only advocate for certain ones. The pool is too large for them to 'waste' time. I don't think some of these kids are necessarily the smartest players either, but definitely had an early physical advantage.

They never dip into the player pool.
If the DA is in fact in their own club then the club has already stratified the in house talent. By U13 a C/D team player is a C/D team player. There is no need to dip into the pool.

DA and such read the 'registration form' and a lot kids from smaller Clubs/lower teams to the field that nobody is watching at tryouts and ID sessions.:
There is no allegiance to an outside player at an ID session based on the club they came from. If a kid can play it will show against he players that they play against. This is nothing more than conspiracy garbage. If you are good, you are good and it will show regardless of what field you are initially placed.

The disconnect is parents who do the "Classic" route, complaining about the rigors and waste of travel soccer. They are the same people who shout money grab at everything from U9 travel to ODP. And while all those things may seem unnecessary, and are over priced they tend also provide a relative assessment of where a kid truly stands in the eyes of travel soccer. And until a Classic player actually tries out for a travel team or ODP they really don't know where they truly stand in relation to other non-Classic level players. All they know is that their kid is a Star in Classic.
And none of this discounts that talented kids do come out of a Classic like environment, but it would be a mistake to try and sell it as some kind of stepping stone to A/B team level travel soccer. If your kid is a C/D level player then it makes sense to do Classic, save some money and join a C/D level travel team later on in hopes of making a HS soccer team later on.

If you think your kid is a A/B travel team level kid then stay in Classic if you wish but you had better tryout at quality clubs or ODP to keep tabs on where your player really stands. If you get an offer then great, you have your answer. It doesn't mean you need to accept.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Factors that affect the developmental environment for a player (not necessarily in order):

A. Quality of Coach.
B. Level of teammates.
C. Quantity of Practice Time (#sessioins/week, #weeks/year, 60 v 90 min). Access to lighted turf fields will have a significant effect on this.
D. Level of competition.

B, C & D will almost always be better on a travel team than a rec or classic team, but there are situations in which the gap is not that large, and a significant difference in the quality of coach can more than make up for it. Really good rec/classic coaches also tend to keep more of their better players, which also makes a difference.

I have seen some exceptional rec/classic coaches over the years, who were better than many travel coaches. Usually (but not always) these are former players. Many of them have gotten their licenses, and the main reason they aren't coaching travel is just because their own kids don't have the aptitude and/or appetite for it. These types of coaches are the exception rather than the rule however. So while I agree that it would be folly to blindly send your U9-U12 kid to a C/D level travel team, just for the sake of it being "travel", the reality is that if you are comparing the quality of rec/classic coaches to C/D travel coaches overall, in the majority of cases the travel coaches are indeed better.

If you are talking about making an elite level team at U13/14 or higher though, the chances of doing that from a rec background are extremely low. [Andy Najar was not playing rec soccer. He was playing in adult men's leagues as a 15 year old.] I'll add another data point as a DA parent, exactly 1 player on my son's came from a B team at a big club. All of the rest of them were A team players from U9 up. The same is true with all of the other local DA teams in his age group, some may have a few more former B team players, but that's in part because of the difference in roster size from 7v7 to 11v11.

And no, RSD, the clubs don't keep data on that, so you can't access this information from a keyboard. The reason we parents know it is because we've been seeing each other on the sidelines at multiple tournaments per year for the last 6 years - not to mention futsal, 3v3, clinics, etc.... It's a small world. Some kids have moved from club to club, some have stayed at the same club, but it's been pretty much the same kids. Any DA parent will tell you the same. To dismiss that information as anecdotal evidence in the sense that it has no more value than someone saying "I knew a kid once .... " is a false equivalence.

Quality of coaching is most important in the early years.
Level of players surrounding them and playing against isn't a big deal until after U13. Go where the coaching/development is good. Don't be fooled by 'winning' U-littles.

There is a reason why all of the kids came from A teams to the other pp's point. They never dip into the player pool. It's not necessarily superior talent as kids being passes on from year to year. They only cut these kids down the line in the much later years. Also, DA and such read the 'registration form' and a lot kids from smaller Clubs/lower teams to the field that nobody is watching at tryouts and ID sessions. It's always been the case that coaches pass players on and only advocate for certain ones. The pool is too large for them to 'waste' time. I don't think some of these kids are necessarily the smartest players either, but definitely had an early physical advantage.

They never dip into the player pool.
If the DA is in fact in their own club then the club has already stratified the in house talent. By U13 a C/D team player is a C/D team player. There is no need to dip into the pool.

DA and such read the 'registration form' and a lot kids from smaller Clubs/lower teams to the field that nobody is watching at tryouts and ID sessions.:
There is no allegiance to an outside player at an ID session based on the club they came from. If a kid can play it will show against he players that they play against. This is nothing more than conspiracy garbage. If you are good, you are good and it will show regardless of what field you are initially placed.

The disconnect is parents who do the "Classic" route, complaining about the rigors and waste of travel soccer. They are the same people who shout money grab at everything from U9 travel to ODP. And while all those things may seem unnecessary, and are over priced they tend also provide a relative assessment of where a kid truly stands in the eyes of travel soccer. And until a Classic player actually tries out for a travel team or ODP they really don't know where they truly stand in relation to other non-Classic level players. All they know is that their kid is a Star in Classic.
And none of this discounts that talented kids do come out of a Classic like environment, but it would be a mistake to try and sell it as some kind of stepping stone to A/B team level travel soccer. If your kid is a C/D level player then it makes sense to do Classic, save some money and join a C/D level travel team later on in hopes of making a HS soccer team later on.

If you think your kid is a A/B travel team level kid then stay in Classic if you wish but you had better tryout at quality clubs or ODP to keep tabs on where your player really stands. If you get an offer then great, you have your answer. It doesn't mean you need to accept.

While this may be true at DC United and other MLS DA, the 'Club' DAs are composed mostly of their A teams. In fact, in the younger years the A team essentially just becomes the 'DA" team. With the possible dropping of both U12/U13 in coming years, maybe this will be less of a problem since many kids also don't go out for DA until U14 anyways if they don't have it at their home Club.

[Anonymous]

^^ Making a DA team at U13/14 from a Classic team was never really the PPs argument. They simply said A/B travel team. Now if you are implying that a player could jump from a Classic environment to DA at U13/14, well good luck with that.

[Anonymous]

RantingSoccerDad wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does this joker keep spitting out $3,000 for a C or D level team? C and D level teams aren't $3,000 (maybe except Barca).

You must be part of the "pay to play" lobby

Yes, this has been pointed out several times. Only Barca charges $3k+ for c/d level soccer (any level is the same cost).

The funniest thing is the contradictions in the argument; don't pay the ~$2k for C level teams but spend countless $$ on rec and personal training during the year over the course of several years, which can easily surpass the $2k per year. There's not much cost savings going that route. An argument can be made that it may be more effective for skills training, but it will be necessarily less effective for speed of play/game situation training, which can only happen with competent, skilled competition. So it's a wash, and that is making the assumption that the person paying the $2k isn't doing their own personal skills training in addition to the C level team play, which if they are serious about the sport probably isn't right.

The point is not that one absolutely can't skip travel from U9-U12 and make a U13 team, even an elite team, it's just that it's very, very hard to do it. If it were easy, these ECNL and DA rosters would be filled with rec players who follow this path. They're not. That's where the data comes in, not anecdotes of "I've seen...." and "I know a friends daughter who did..." Just go out and gather the data from the top teams at U13+ to show how many are rec players vs former travel. It isn't that difficult.

The proof is in the pudding. It's a nice idea that someone is trying to promote, but there is no data to back it up.

You bring up an interesting point. Is there actual, true data on the subject? Have clubs collected data of any kind as to where their players come from? Especially on their top teams, like how many came from rec, other clubs, promotion from within the club?

Or are we all just talking based on anecdotal experience?

I’m the PP and my DC is on a DA team and not a single player came from this kind of rec background described by the rec poster. All players are from B or higher travel teams from u9-12. I’m familiar with players and parents in other age groups and don’t know a single player from a rec background as has been painted within this thread. I encourage other DA or ECNL members to share their experience as well.

My DD plays in a DA club where not her team but within the club, I know of 3 players who made it who came from a rec type program.

The contention was that this is common, for rec players to directly make the elite team at u13-15, not to make a travel team at a DA club. All these players started in a rec type program prior to u9.

No moving the goal posts. How many players on ECNL and DA teams are walk ons from pure rec backgrounds. None on any DA or ECNL teams from my DC or the players and families I’m familiar with.

I haven't heard any poster argue that. I've read arguments that it's possible and that there are alternatives. No one has argued that this is common. Most parents who think their kid has even an ounce of talent run to travel programs as soon as possible to make sure their little darlings aren't left behind. And that's true of not only soccer, but every sport I know of.

Read through the thread, there were comments such as “making a DA or ECNL team isn’t that hard” for rec players. If that statement is true, then the data should show many rec players on DA and ECNL teams. There’s no evidence that it does. There are exceptions to every rule, but to say the path from rec to elite soccer is “not hard” is a long stretch.

You guys can trade anecdotes all you want. If you have actual data, please contact me, because I'd like to inquire about accessing it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

RantingSoccerDad wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does this joker keep spitting out $3,000 for a C or D level team? C and D level teams aren't $3,000 (maybe except Barca).

You must be part of the "pay to play" lobby

Yes, this has been pointed out several times. Only Barca charges $3k+ for c/d level soccer (any level is the same cost).

The funniest thing is the contradictions in the argument; don't pay the ~$2k for C level teams but spend countless $$ on rec and personal training during the year over the course of several years, which can easily surpass the $2k per year. There's not much cost savings going that route. An argument can be made that it may be more effective for skills training, but it will be necessarily less effective for speed of play/game situation training, which can only happen with competent, skilled competition. So it's a wash, and that is making the assumption that the person paying the $2k isn't doing their own personal skills training in addition to the C level team play, which if they are serious about the sport probably isn't right.

The point is not that one absolutely can't skip travel from U9-U12 and make a U13 team, even an elite team, it's just that it's very, very hard to do it. If it were easy, these ECNL and DA rosters would be filled with rec players who follow this path. They're not. That's where the data comes in, not anecdotes of "I've seen...." and "I know a friends daughter who did..." Just go out and gather the data from the top teams at U13+ to show how many are rec players vs former travel. It isn't that difficult.

The proof is in the pudding. It's a nice idea that someone is trying to promote, but there is no data to back it up.

You bring up an interesting point. Is there actual, true data on the subject? Have clubs collected data of any kind as to where their players come from? Especially on their top teams, like how many came from rec, other clubs, promotion from within the club?

Or are we all just talking based on anecdotal experience?

I’m the PP and my DC is on a DA team and not a single player came from this kind of rec background described by the rec poster. All players are from B or higher travel teams from u9-12. I’m familiar with players and parents in other age groups and don’t know a single player from a rec background as has been painted within this thread. I encourage other DA or ECNL members to share their experience as well.

My DD plays in a DA club where not her team but within the club, I know of 3 players who made it who came from a rec type program.

The contention was that this is common, for rec players to directly make the elite team at u13-15, not to make a travel team at a DA club. All these players started in a rec type program prior to u9.

No moving the goal posts. How many players on ECNL and DA teams are walk ons from pure rec backgrounds. None on any DA or ECNL teams from my DC or the players and families I’m familiar with.

I haven't heard any poster argue that. I've read arguments that it's possible and that there are alternatives. No one has argued that this is common. Most parents who think their kid has even an ounce of talent run to travel programs as soon as possible to make sure their little darlings aren't left behind. And that's true of not only soccer, but every sport I know of.

Read through the thread, there were comments such as “making a DA or ECNL team isn’t that hard” for rec players. If that statement is true, then the data should show many rec players on DA and ECNL teams. There’s no evidence that it does. There are exceptions to every rule, but to say the path from rec to elite soccer is “not hard” is a long stretch.

You guys can trade anecdotes all you want. If you have actual data, please contact me, because I'd like to inquire about accessing it.

100% of the kids on our DA team come from travel backgrounds from U10 and older. That's not an anecdote, it's data.

[Anonymous]

RantingSoccerDad wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^ Making a DA team at U13/14 from a Classic team was never really the PPs argument. They simply said A/B travel team. Now if you are implying that a player could jump from a Classic environment to DA at U13/14, well good luck with that.

Does anyone even remember what the argument was? This is why I wish more people would use screen names here. You can still be anonymous, but we would be better able to follow the threads.

I believe we've answered the initial question. Basically, if you're an above-average (even slightly) player on the typical rec team, you can probably make *some* sort of travel team. If you're in the top 5-10 percent (depending on the league) of the rec players in your league, you make make a half-decent travel team. If you're the best player in your rec league, you could surely make an A team somewhere -- maybe not at one of the big clubs in the area but somewhere.

And if you're the best rec player in the area over a 10-year span, maybe you could make a DA team.

Can we live with that?

The following is the quote that set off the whole "Classic" debate:
"I know classic/select teams that will destroy most travel teams and I have seen plenty of classic/select players that have shown up at u13 or u14 tryouts and displaced kids that have been playing travel for 4+ years." (https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/766858.page#14051597)

I think based on the bolded part we can see how this blew up.

[Anonymous]

I stand by my statement, which I have clarified. Let me do so one last time.

I have seen classic/select teams (A FEW BUT NOT EVERY TEAM OR ALL TEAMS) that have beat most of the C/D travel teams that they have played and would beat most C/D teams. These teams were formed and coached by strong coaches who for various reasons did not coach travel but did in the past. Most played at the college level. Again, this is not every classic/select team. I have seen teams started as rec team, move to classic/select and then move to travel.

The point remains that from my experience, playing C/D travel team soccer is not the only option to make it to elite travel soccer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I stand by my statement, which I have clarified. Let me do so one last time.

I have seen classic/select teams (A FEW BUT NOT EVERY TEAM OR ALL TEAMS) that have beat most of the C/D travel teams that they have played and would beat most C/D teams. These teams were formed and coached by strong coaches who for various reasons did not coach travel but did in the past. Most played at the college level. Again, this is not every classic/select team. I have seen teams started as rec team, move to classic/select and then move to travel.

The point remains that from my experience, playing C/D travel team soccer is not the only option to make it to elite travel soccer.

If at U13/14 you are on a C/D travel team as a player you are not making any elite team. It is not a pathway, it is where you are as a player. C/D team soccer is not elite soccer.

[Anonymous]

Can someone please share which clubs/leagues are Travel A, B, C & D?

I know that DA is Travel A, but what is considered Travel B, C & D?

[Anonymous]

RantingSoccerDad wrote:Yeah, I'm not sure how this became a DA discussion. Sure, it's going to be extremely rare that a player moves from U10 rec to U12 DA. I don't think that was ever the point.

To answer the Travel A/B/C/D question -- in most clubs, the A team is either in the DA, the ECNL, EDP, CCL or VPL. A handful still have their A teams in NCSL and a couple are in ODSL -- a couple of *those* teams are actually quite good.

So we should remember, of course, that some clubs B teams will be better than other clubs' A teams.

But most clubs' C/D (and E/F in some cases) teams will be in NCSL and ODSL, usually not in the top NCSL division.

Maybe we should be talking, then, about league tiers rather than club tiers. A rough look at that ...

Tier 1: DA, girls' ECNL

Tier 2: Top EDP division, top third of CCL, other teams in the top 25 at Youth Soccer Rankings (which would likely include a couple of teams from VPL, maybe 1-2 from NCSL, maybe lower-tier EDP and middle of CCL).

Tier 3: Boys' ECNL, middle of CCL, top half of VPL, EDP Div 2-3, NCSL Div 1, other teams in top 50 at Youth Soccer Rankings (the occasional ODSL team will make that).

Tier 4: The rest of CCL, all of CCL2, the rest of VPL, the rest of EDP, NCSL Div 2-5, more ODSL teams.

Tier 5: The rest of NCSL and ODSL.

I'm sure there are Classic/Select teams that could beat the Tier 5 teams and certainly some Tier 4 teams as well.

And I'd think the very best U11 rec players (maybe 1-2 percent) could make a Tier 3 team, the next group (maybe 10-15 percent) could make Tier 4, and an above-average rec player would make Tier 5 if not Tier 4.

Then after a year or two of travel, some of those players could move up a tier. Maybe even two if they're starting in Tier 4 or 5.

NP here. This is a good analysis. My DD is one of the rare kids that started travel soccer at the C team/ODSL level (Tier 5) for U9/U10 and eventually played at the ECNL (Tier 1) level. She was also senior year Captain and "all-league" for her strong high school team.

The progression was gradual and involved a lot of individual training. At U11 she moved from ODSL up to the Tier 4 level. Then at U14 made at Tier 2 level team at another club, and at U17 she played at the ECNL level. So while she did not make it to Tier 1 from "rec" soccer, she did make the progression from Tier 5 to Tier 1.