How good does a kid have to be to make travel

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

RantingSoccerDad wrote:Yeah, I'm not sure how this became a DA discussion. Sure, it's going to be extremely rare that a player moves from U10 rec to U12 DA. I don't think that was ever the point.

To answer the Travel A/B/C/D question -- in most clubs, the A team is either in the DA, the ECNL, EDP, CCL or VPL. A handful still have their A teams in NCSL and a couple are in ODSL -- a couple of *those* teams are actually quite good.

So we should remember, of course, that some clubs B teams will be better than other clubs' A teams.

But most clubs' C/D (and E/F in some cases) teams will be in NCSL and ODSL, usually not in the top NCSL division.

Maybe we should be talking, then, about league tiers rather than club tiers. A rough look at that ...

Tier 1: DA, girls' ECNL

Tier 2: Top EDP division, top third of CCL, other teams in the top 25 at Youth Soccer Rankings (which would likely include a couple of teams from VPL, maybe 1-2 from NCSL, maybe lower-tier EDP and middle of CCL).

Tier 3: Boys' ECNL, middle of CCL, top half of VPL, EDP Div 2-3, NCSL Div 1, other teams in top 50 at Youth Soccer Rankings (the occasional ODSL team will make that).

Tier 4: The rest of CCL, all of CCL2, the rest of VPL, the rest of EDP, NCSL Div 2-5, more ODSL teams.

Tier 5: The rest of NCSL and ODSL.

I'm sure there are Classic/Select teams that could beat the Tier 5 teams and certainly some Tier 4 teams as well.

And I'd think the very best U11 rec players (maybe 1-2 percent) could make a Tier 3 team, the next group (maybe 10-15 percent) could make Tier 4, and an above-average rec player would make Tier 5 if not Tier 4.

Then after a year or two of travel, some of those players could move up a tier. Maybe even two if they're starting in Tier 4 or 5.

NP here. This is a good analysis. My DD is one of the rare kids that started travel soccer at the C team/ODSL level (Tier 5) for U9/U10 and eventually played at the ECNL (Tier 1) level. She was also senior year Captain and "all-league" for her strong high school team.

The progression was gradual and involved a lot of individual training. At U11 she moved from ODSL up to the Tier 4 level. Then at U14 made at Tier 2 level team at another club, and at U17 she played at the ECNL level. So while she did not make it to Tier 1 from "rec" soccer, she did make the progression from Tier 5 to Tier 1.

And this is a reasonable path. The reality is there must be some progression and while excellent coaching is a major component, when it isn't matched through progressively more challenging competition a potentially very good player ends up leaving a lot of fat on the bone that just gets discarded through time lost.

The very idea that great coaching at rec soccer alone without the supporting talent or challenge of progressively tougher competition does not make the leap from classic/rec to elite very likely. Your DD's path is the most realistic outcome for hard working kids who are just climbing the ladder.

[Anonymous]

RantingSoccerDad wrote:Yeah, I'm not sure how this became a DA discussion. Sure, it's going to be extremely rare that a player moves from U10 rec to U12 DA. I don't think that was ever the point.

To answer the Travel A/B/C/D question -- in most clubs, the A team is either in the DA, the ECNL, EDP, CCL or VPL. A handful still have their A teams in NCSL and a couple are in ODSL -- a couple of *those* teams are actually quite good.

So we should remember, of course, that some clubs B teams will be better than other clubs' A teams.

But most clubs' C/D (and E/F in some cases) teams will be in NCSL and ODSL, usually not in the top NCSL division.

Maybe we should be talking, then, about league tiers rather than club tiers. A rough look at that ...

Tier 1: DA, girls' ECNL

Tier 2: Top EDP division, top third of CCL, other teams in the top 25 at Youth Soccer Rankings (which would likely include a couple of teams from VPL, maybe 1-2 from NCSL, maybe lower-tier EDP and middle of CCL).

Tier 3: Boys' ECNL, middle of CCL, top half of VPL, EDP Div 2-3, NCSL Div 1, other teams in top 50 at Youth Soccer Rankings (the occasional ODSL team will make that).

Tier 4: The rest of CCL, all of CCL2, the rest of VPL, the rest of EDP, NCSL Div 2-5, more ODSL teams.

Tier 5: The rest of NCSL and ODSL.

I'm sure there are Classic/Select teams that could beat the Tier 5 teams and certainly some Tier 4 teams as well.

And I'd think the very best U11 rec players (maybe 1-2 percent) could make a Tier 3 team, the next group (maybe 10-15 percent) could make Tier 4, and an above-average rec player would make Tier 5 if not Tier 4.

Then after a year or two of travel, some of those players could move up a tier. Maybe even two if they're starting in Tier 4 or 5.

Yes, I think that analysis is spot on and actually helps answer the original question.

[Anonymous]

Very helpful. The only point I would make is that some of the teams playing in EDP's National League compete in the top brackets of the most competitive tournaments where they often beat ECNL teams. Those teams and state cup champions should be considered Tier I.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Very helpful. The only point I would make is that some of the teams playing in EDP's National League compete in the top brackets of the most competitive tournaments where they often beat ECNL teams. Those teams and state cup champions should be considered Tier I.

No, you can't make it a tier 1 simply because a couple of high achieving teams can beat tier 1 teams. It is to random to determine what team will be the years Unicorn out of the group.

A tier 1 league/environment is more indicative of the common opportunities provided to most if not all participants in regards to things like showcasing opportunities and so forth. If a kid is playing in DA or ECNL there is a significantly higher level of showcasing opportunities that is not the same across a EDP Division. Those showcasing opportunities are attached more to the particular team in EDP and its success rather than to the league or division as a whole.

[Anonymous]

RantingSoccerDad wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Very helpful. The only point I would make is that some of the teams playing in EDP's National League compete in the top brackets of the most competitive tournaments where they often beat ECNL teams. Those teams and state cup champions should be considered Tier I.

No, you can't make it a tier 1 simply because a couple of high achieving teams can beat tier 1 teams. It is to random to determine what team will be the years Unicorn out of the group.

A tier 1 league/environment is more indicative of the common opportunities provided to most if not all participants in regards to things like showcasing opportunities and so forth. If a kid is playing in DA or ECNL there is a significantly higher level of showcasing opportunities that is not the same across a EDP Division. Those showcasing opportunities are attached more to the particular team in EDP and its success rather than to the league or division as a whole.

With EDP now in charge of what used to be the Region 1 league, and with that league now playing a full schedule as opposed to a bunch of supplemental games, we might need to think about this.

In other words, the entire division might be unicorns.

Right, and while being in the Division is indicative of possibly being a Unicorn for it is hard to predict year in and year out which Unicorns will be in the division. There is very little in predictability for a player to really target a team to try and make knowing that Tier 1 opportunities will be available. This is why closed leagues like ECNL and DA will generally do a better job of drawing talent because the predictable nature of the showcases are more guaranteed than with a better EDP team.

In DA or ECNL an elite player can still use the platform regardless of the surrounding talent. On EDP, the elite player NEEDS to be surrounded by similar players to open up the showcasing opportunities and bracket based showcases like Jeff Cup and Disney etc where only the top bracket really get coaches showing up to watch.

[Anonymous]

I don't agree. All three leagues will have strong teams at the top and the ECNL and EDP teams will get invited to the top brackets in the most competitive tournaments where they play each other.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't agree. All three leagues will have strong teams at the top and the ECNL and EDP teams will get invited to the top brackets in the most competitive tournaments where they play each other.

The difference between DA/ECNL and EDP is regardless of the team one is on there are significantly high quality guaranteed showcase opportunities that no EDP team can match. Good luck finding the convenient Unicorn EDP team that will always make the top bracket at Jeff Cup etc...

[Anonymous]

RantingSoccerDad wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Very helpful. The only point I would make is that some of the teams playing in EDP's National League compete in the top brackets of the most competitive tournaments where they often beat ECNL teams. Those teams and state cup champions should be considered Tier I.

No, you can't make it a tier 1 simply because a couple of high achieving teams can beat tier 1 teams. It is to random to determine what team will be the years Unicorn out of the group.

A tier 1 league/environment is more indicative of the common opportunities provided to most if not all participants in regards to things like showcasing opportunities and so forth. If a kid is playing in DA or ECNL there is a significantly higher level of showcasing opportunities that is not the same across a EDP Division. Those showcasing opportunities are attached more to the particular team in EDP and its success rather than to the league or division as a whole.

With EDP now in charge of what used to be the Region 1 league, and with that league now playing a full schedule as opposed to a bunch of supplemental games, we might need to think about this.

In other words, the entire division might be unicorns.

Different analysis for boys and girls. On the girls side, the fact that top talent is distributed between both ECNL and DA may mean that there is less of a gap between them and top Region 1 teams. On the boys side, no. Region 1 is not comparable to DA.

[Anonymous]

You must be clueless. The top teams in the DMV that are not in ECNL or DA will get invited to the top showcases and get placed with the top ECNL teams or ahead of them in more competitive brackets.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You must be clueless. The top teams in the DMV that are not in ECNL or DA will get invited to the top showcases and get placed with the top ECNL teams or ahead of them in more competitive brackets.

That isn’t the point, it is knowing what the top teams will even be is the point.

[Anonymous]

The top teams are not just in ECNL and DA. If that is your experience, then you live in a bubble. If you live in Baltimore, you are not traveling to Bowie or Bethesda for ECNL practices. You are likely staying in Baltimore which is why you have so many competitive teams in that area. ECNL and DA are great platforms but you haven't seen many games if you believe that the only talent is in DA and ECNL.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The top teams are not just in ECNL and DA. If that is your experience, then you live in a bubble. If you live in Baltimore, you are not traveling to Bowie or Bethesda for ECNL practices. You are likely staying in Baltimore which is why you have so many competitive teams in that area. ECNL and DA are great platforms but you haven't seen many games if you believe that the only talent is in DA and ECNL.

You completely do not understand my point so let me retry.

1. Yes, I agree, that there are some great teams in EDP. This is not the issue.

2. When a kid is 12-14 years old and trying out for a team hoping (parents at least) that the chosen team will in 2-3 years be a highly ranked, Division 1 EDP team and will be in top showcase brackets it is much, much harder to predict versus a closed system like ECNL or DA. The great variance in selecting a team to even play for before they have even made a particular division in EDP. EDP may have Tier 1 quality but it simply lacks the tier one platform to make it a predictable pathway.

Anyway, this digression topic really has nothing to do with the original issue of how good a player needs to play in travel.

[Anonymous]

2. There are some teams where you don't have "to hope" that they develop into highly ranked teams because they already are. The coaches and the club have a track record of producing highly ranked teams that will get invited to showcases. Just look at the U14 elite teams in the EDP NL. Pipeline and Rush have clubs and coaches with track records of producing highly-ranked teams. You are correct that these teams will not play in the DA or ECNL showcases but when you beat ECNL teams to win the top brackets of Bethesda, Jefferson or Delco, you will get exposure.

1. Again, this gets to the point that you don't have give in the travel soccer by age 10 or the ECNL/DA industrial complex. All I am arguing is that if a kid is u12 or earlier, consider finding a really good soccer coach who coaches a competitive classic/select team and develop there for a year or so before going to travel if the option is the a C team or lower. If the option is an A or B team then go worth the A or B team as long as that team has strong coaches and is competitive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:2. There are some teams where you don't have "to hope" that they develop into highly ranked teams because they already are. The coaches and the club have a track record of producing highly ranked teams that will get invited to showcases. Just look at the U14 elite teams in the EDP NL. Pipeline and Rush have clubs and coaches with track records of producing highly-ranked teams. You are correct that these teams will not play in the DA or ECNL showcases but when you beat ECNL teams to win the top brackets of Bethesda, Jefferson or Delco, you will get exposure.

1. Again, this gets to the point that you don't have give in the travel soccer by age 10 or the ECNL/DA industrial complex. All I am arguing is that if a kid is u12 or earlier, consider finding a really good soccer coach who coaches a competitive classic/select team and develop there for a year or so before going to travel if the option is the a C team or lower. If the option is an A or B team then go worth the A or B team as long as that team has strong coaches and is competitive.

And what if those highly touted coaches don’t coach your age group or perhaps even in your area? What next? And how is one supposed to go about determining who the best Classic/Select coach even is?

I get it, this worked for you because you got lucky. But considering kids sign up, tryout and are placed on a team please explain the autonomy in selecting a coach.

So to prove your point please provide some coaching names and some can’t miss “Tier 1” teams for a 07 girl to look into joining outside of DA/ECNL. And since this is predominantly a DMV/NoVA forum you have reach beyond the Baltimore area and represent a larger geographic area.

[Anonymous]

+1. This would be very helpful information.