Is it common to have 30+ kids in class in MCPS ES?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One advantage of DCPS over MCPS for ES is class size. My kids are at an upper NW ES and have around 21-23 kids, Lower grades have an aide too.

And there are often two adults since PTAs can fund aides. MoCo prohibits this based on notions of equity and not wanting to worsen the achievement gap, although this measure only stunts the achievement of better performing schools and doesn't actually help anyone in schools that are struggling.

MCPS prohibits this on the basis of equity, full stop. And rightfully so.

That's like saying there should be an extra 25% tax on the rich. But, rather than using that money to help the poor, build roads, fund healthcare, etc - you simply burn the money.

The rich having less is more "equitable," even though it hasn't help the poor or society more broadly in the process.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We moved to the Bethesda area a month ago and were shocked to hear from the principal that classes had 28-29 kids, one class had 30 kids. This is not what appears on the website and what we were told. We moved from an area in the Midwest with decent public schools and never more than 22-23 kids in elementary. I was an educator in my "first career" and there are reams of research on why this is bad for many reasons. No advanced nation with good schools has classes this big since it is well-known that small class sizes are much better for kids.

Is it worth talking to the Principal about this? Or the PTA?

Could anyone help point me in the right direction of who I should email?

OP, I agree with you and I'm sorry you've had this surprise. Your best bet would be the Board of Ed and your local elected officials, or those up for election. CC the State Superintendent of Education. You're preaching to the choir with the PTA and Principal - these decisions are made way above their heads.

Complain to everyone. Board of Ed, County Council, get involved with the MCCPTA not just your school’s PTA. There was a big push in case sizes 2-3 years ago and the “guidelines” came down by 1 student. They are not hard cut-offs, but guidelines unfortunately. For this particular year you could try the BOE and Councilmember for your district for starters. Making noise is about all you can do and hope they are hearing from others too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We moved to the Bethesda area a month ago and were shocked to hear from the principal that classes had 28-29 kids, one class had 30 kids. This is not what appears on the website and what we were told. We moved from an area in the Midwest with decent public schools and never more than 22-23 kids in elementary. I was an educator in my "first career" and there are reams of research on why this is bad for many reasons. No advanced nation with good schools has classes this big since it is well-known that small class sizes are much better for kids.

Is it worth talking to the Principal about this? Or the PTA?

Could anyone help point me in the right direction of who I should email?

OP, I agree with you and I'm sorry you've had this surprise. Your best bet would be the Board of Ed and your local elected officials, or those up for election. CC the State Superintendent of Education. You're preaching to the choir with the PTA and Principal - these decisions are made way above their heads.

Complain to everyone. Board of Ed, County Council, get involved with the MCCPTA not just your school’s PTA. There was a big push in case sizes 2-3 years ago and the “guidelines” came down by 1 student. They are not hard cut-offs, but guidelines unfortunately. For this particular year you could try the BOE and Councilmember for your district for starters. Making noise is about all you can do and hope they are hearing from others too.

It won’t matter though. For class sizes to go down they have to hire another teacher, which isn’t happening at this point. They also just don’t care what parents say. If you really want smaller class sizes switch to private school.

[Anonymous]

Staffing runs numbers on a very regular basis at this point in the summer as we have kids enrolling and withdrawing right and left. Last summer we got a new section of 4th grade added the Wednesday of Pre-Service week. The poor first year teacher had a day to set up her room before Open House. It was nuts. I believe they're definitely looking at the numbers in all schools but the "acceptable" number of students in each classroom is just way too high.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We moved to the Bethesda area a month ago and were shocked to hear from the principal that classes had 28-29 kids, one class had 30 kids. This is not what appears on the website and what we were told. We moved from an area in the Midwest with decent public schools and never more than 22-23 kids in elementary. I was an educator in my "first career" and there are reams of research on why this is bad for many reasons. No advanced nation with good schools has classes this big since it is well-known that small class sizes are much better for kids.

Is it worth talking to the Principal about this? Or the PTA?

Could anyone help point me in the right direction of who I should email?

OP, I agree with you and I'm sorry you've had this surprise. Your best bet would be the Board of Ed and your local elected officials, or those up for election. CC the State Superintendent of Education. You're preaching to the choir with the PTA and Principal - these decisions are made way above their heads.

Complain to everyone. Board of Ed, County Council, get involved with the MCCPTA not just your school’s PTA. There was a big push in case sizes 2-3 years ago and the “guidelines” came down by 1 student. They are not hard cut-offs, but guidelines unfortunately. For this particular year you could try the BOE and Councilmember for your district for starters. Making noise is about all you can do and hope they are hearing from others too.

It won’t matter though. For class sizes to go down they have to hire another teacher, which isn’t happening at this point. They also just don’t care what parents say. If you really want smaller class sizes switch to private school.

Yes, they definitely are hiring teachers at this point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We moved to the Bethesda area a month ago and were shocked to hear from the principal that classes had 28-29 kids, one class had 30 kids. This is not what appears on the website and what we were told. We moved from an area in the Midwest with decent public schools and never more than 22-23 kids in elementary. I was an educator in my "first career" and there are reams of research on why this is bad for many reasons. No advanced nation with good schools has classes this big since it is well-known that small class sizes are much better for kids.

Is it worth talking to the Principal about this? Or the PTA?

Could anyone help point me in the right direction of who I should email?

OP, I agree with you and I'm sorry you've had this surprise. Your best bet would be the Board of Ed and your local elected officials, or those up for election. CC the State Superintendent of Education. You're preaching to the choir with the PTA and Principal - these decisions are made way above their heads.

Complain to everyone. Board of Ed, County Council, get involved with the MCCPTA not just your school’s PTA. There was a big push in case sizes 2-3 years ago and the “guidelines” came down by 1 student. They are not hard cut-offs, but guidelines unfortunately. For this particular year you could try the BOE and Councilmember for your district for starters. Making noise is about all you can do and hope they are hearing from others too.

It won’t matter though. For class sizes to go down they have to hire another teacher, which isn’t happening at this point. They also just don’t care what parents say. If you really want smaller class sizes switch to private school.

Yes, they definitely are hiring teachers at this point.

+1. We won't find out classes until 8/29 because the principal is holding out to see if she can justify getting additional teachers based on enrollment numbers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Staffing runs numbers on a very regular basis at this point in the summer as we have kids enrolling and withdrawing right and left. Last summer we got a new section of 4th grade added the Wednesday of Pre-Service week. The poor first year teacher had a day to set up her room before Open House. It was nuts. I believe they're definitely looking at the numbers in all schools but the "acceptable" number of students in each classroom is just way too high.

This happens at our Focus School almost yearly.

We get a huge rush of kids registering for K right before school starts.

Last year, we had a new K teacher hired right before th Open house. Two days prior. She was fantastic but she had a day to get organized.

They shouldn’t need to cut things so close.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Staffing runs numbers on a very regular basis at this point in the summer as we have kids enrolling and withdrawing right and left. Last summer we got a new section of 4th grade added the Wednesday of Pre-Service week. The poor first year teacher had a day to set up her room before Open House. It was nuts. I believe they're definitely looking at the numbers in all schools but the "acceptable" number of students in each classroom is just way too high.

This happens at our Focus School almost yearly.

We get a huge rush of kids registering for K right before school starts.

Last year, we had a new K teacher hired right before th Open house. Two days prior. She was fantastic but she had a day to get organized.

They shouldn’t need to cut things so close.

I work at a Focus school too. It never fails that people start coming out of the wood work at the last minute to enroll their kindergarten students. I can't think of a year that we haven't had a last minute addition to our staff due to this trend.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One advantage of DCPS over MCPS for ES is class size. My kids are at an upper NW ES and have around 21-23 kids, Lower grades have an aide too.

And there are often two adults since PTAs can fund aides. MoCo prohibits this based on notions of equity and not wanting to worsen the achievement gap, although this measure only stunts the achievement of better performing schools and doesn't actually help anyone in schools that are struggling.

MCPS prohibits this on the basis of equity, full stop. And rightfully so.

That's like saying there should be an extra 25% tax on the rich. But, rather than using that money to help the poor, build roads, fund healthcare, etc - you simply burn the money.

The rich having less is more "equitable," even though it hasn't help the poor or society more broadly in the process.

No. It’s basically to avoid creating private public schools, where wealthy families are able to fund their schools themselves and eventually seek to lower taxes to not have to fund schools in poorer neighborhoods. It also makes sure that funding decisions are centralized and traceable to a central authority for accountability and mission

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Staffing runs numbers on a very regular basis at this point in the summer as we have kids enrolling and withdrawing right and left. Last summer we got a new section of 4th grade added the Wednesday of Pre-Service week. The poor first year teacher had a day to set up her room before Open House. It was nuts. I believe they're definitely looking at the numbers in all schools but the "acceptable" number of students in each classroom is just way too high.

This happens at our Focus School almost yearly.

We get a huge rush of kids registering for K right before school starts.

Last year, we had a new K teacher hired right before th Open house. Two days prior. She was fantastic but she had a day to get organized.

They shouldn’t need to cut things so close.

I work at a Focus school too. It never fails that people start coming out of the wood work at the last minute to enroll their kindergarten students. I can't think of a year that we haven't had a last minute addition to our staff due to this trend.

But this issue is mostly kindergarten. Less likely in 4th and 5th. Though the principal should know if they’re in a spot where one or two more kids would make a difference.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Staffing runs numbers on a very regular basis at this point in the summer as we have kids enrolling and withdrawing right and left. Last summer we got a new section of 4th grade added the Wednesday of Pre-Service week. The poor first year teacher had a day to set up her room before Open House. It was nuts. I believe they're definitely looking at the numbers in all schools but the "acceptable" number of students in each classroom is just way too high.

This happens at our Focus School almost yearly.

We get a huge rush of kids registering for K right before school starts.

Last year, we had a new K teacher hired right before th Open house. Two days prior. She was fantastic but she had a day to get organized.

They shouldn’t need to cut things so close.

I work at a Focus school too. It never fails that people start coming out of the wood work at the last minute to enroll their kindergarten students. I can't think of a year that we haven't had a last minute addition to our staff due to this trend.

Another focus school teacher here. This also happens at my school. Every spring when allocations come out based on enrollment at that point our K is in danger of losing a classroom. Then people start enrolling in August or even during the first week of school and it turns out we have enough K kids for an entirely new classroom. My principal is in the process of hiring a new K teacher now, so at least it will be before the year actually starts. It also can have a domino effect on room assignments, especially when K or a grade level that departmentalizes is involved, since those classrooms have to be clustered together and the K students need the rooms with the bathrooms, so sometimes someone who has already spent time over the summer prepping their classroom has to take it all down and move it to a new room a few days before school starts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We moved to the Bethesda area a month ago and were shocked to hear from the principal that classes had 28-29 kids, one class had 30 kids. This is not what appears on the website and what we were told. We moved from an area in the Midwest with decent public schools and never more than 22-23 kids in elementary. I was an educator in my "first career" and there are reams of research on why this is bad for many reasons. No advanced nation with good schools has classes this big since it is well-known that small class sizes are much better for kids.

Is it worth talking to the Principal about this? Or the PTA?

Could anyone help point me in the right direction of who I should email?

I sympathize and agree with you, but nothing is going to change. It’s honestly pointless to try.

It is always worth bringing it up again and again.

MCPS wants to train you and your kids to shut up and take it. Keep emailing. Keep talking to them. Agree that emailing state on the cc or in To line is a great idea too. This stuff adds up. When we left for NE DC we said in writing why and emailed it up and down the chain. Don’t trust the “feedback loop” even exisits in public sector. Everyone is just after more retirement benefits and juicers positions. They won’t alway pass along your concern.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We moved to the Bethesda area a month ago and were shocked to hear from the principal that classes had 28-29 kids, one class had 30 kids. This is not what appears on the website and what we were told. We moved from an area in the Midwest with decent public schools and never more than 22-23 kids in elementary. I was an educator in my "first career" and there are reams of research on why this is bad for many reasons. No advanced nation with good schools has classes this big since it is well-known that small class sizes are much better for kids.

Is it worth talking to the Principal about this? Or the PTA?

Could anyone help point me in the right direction of who I should email?

I don't think there is much the principal can do. Or the PTA. MCPS doesn't allow the PTAs to fund extra staff.

It's just the way it is, unfortunately.

Hi Beowulf start by attacking this issue. My wife and I cannot keep taking off work to volunteer in our children’s K and 1st grade. They teacher and students need more adults in the room, teaching students, helping students, providing feedback to students/parents.
My wife and I also cannot keep up with the supplementing at home due to our FT jobs and travel. We quickly noticed how many families only use MCPS for half of their child’s academic education- they use summer camps, tutors, part homeschooling , after school and weekend classes for supplementing holes and subjects MCPS barely touches until middle school. This is not how public school used to be.

Real shame.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One advantage of DCPS over MCPS for ES is class size. My kids are at an upper NW ES and have around 21-23 kids, Lower grades have an aide too.

And there are often two adults since PTAs can fund aides. MoCo prohibits this based on notions of equity and not wanting to worsen the achievement gap, although this measure only stunts the achievement of better performing schools and doesn't actually help anyone in schools that are struggling.

MCPS prohibits this on the basis of equity, full stop. And rightfully so.

That's like saying there should be an extra 25% tax on the rich. But, rather than using that money to help the poor, build roads, fund healthcare, etc - you simply burn the money.

The rich having less is more "equitable," even though it hasn't help the poor or society more broadly in the process.

No. It’s basically to avoid creating private public schools, where wealthy families are able to fund their schools themselves and eventually seek to lower taxes to not have to fund schools in poorer neighborhoods. It also makes sure that funding decisions are centralized and traceable to a central authority for accountability and mission

We are talking about having an aide in the classroom to assist the teacher. That hardly renders a public school private as wouldn't be near enough for people to decide schools didn't need to be adequately funded. And as for accountability, the aide is accountable first to the teacher who is in charge of the teacher and is next managed by the principal (and assistants and others school management) who is then managed by the various layers of MoCo bureaucracy.

There is more than to ensure that an aide - who would barely set any classroom policies, never mind anything broader - remains accountable and consistent with the mission.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One advantage of DCPS over MCPS for ES is class size. My kids are at an upper NW ES and have around 21-23 kids, Lower grades have an aide too.

And there are often two adults since PTAs can fund aides. MoCo prohibits this based on notions of equity and not wanting to worsen the achievement gap, although this measure only stunts the achievement of better performing schools and doesn't actually help anyone in schools that are struggling.

MCPS prohibits this on the basis of equity, full stop. And rightfully so.

That's like saying there should be an extra 25% tax on the rich. But, rather than using that money to help the poor, build roads, fund healthcare, etc - you simply burn the money.

The rich having less is more "equitable," even though it hasn't help the poor or society more broadly in the process.

No. It’s basically to avoid creating private public schools, where wealthy families are able to fund their schools themselves and eventually seek to lower taxes to not have to fund schools in poorer neighborhoods. It also makes sure that funding decisions are centralized and traceable to a central authority for accountability and mission

We are talking about having an aide in the classroom to assist the teacher. That hardly renders a public school private as wouldn't be near enough for people to decide schools didn't need to be adequately funded. And as for accountability, the aide is accountable first to the teacher who is in charge of the teacher and is next managed by the principal (and assistants and others school management) who is then managed by the various layers of MoCo bureaucracy.

There is more than to ensure that an aide - who would barely set any classroom policies, never mind anything broader - remains accountable and consistent with the mission.

Until the pta starts staffing them in every class. Then it funds specialists, books, etc. soon it funds a capital expansion or renovation. Then the parents don’t see a need to fund other schools as much. It’s nature.