Is it common to have 30+ kids in class in MCPS ES?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We moved to the Bethesda area a month ago and were shocked to hear from the principal that classes had 28-29 kids, one class had 30 kids. This is not what appears on the website and what we were told. We moved from an area in the Midwest with decent public schools and never more than 22-23 kids in elementary. I was an educator in my "first career" and there are reams of research on why this is bad for many reasons. No advanced nation with good schools has classes this big since it is well-known that small class sizes are much better for kids.

Is it worth talking to the Principal about this? Or the PTA?

Could anyone help point me in the right direction of who I should email?

We moved to London 2 years ago, almost every school has exactly 30 kids in every class and there are waiting lists for every grade level at most schools. Every time a child moves there is a new kid in the spot just a day or 2 later.There are 4 classes at each grade level and 2 teaching assistants for each grade level who basically pull kids out for extra help in small groups.

The class sizes are “big” compared to US, but the education my children are getting is fantastic. I seriously don’t know where my kids can go to school when we move back the MCPS schools we toured were really sad looking in comparison, facilities and programming. I don’t think class size is the problem.

You forgot the part about the teachers aide plus reading specialists, designated math and science teachers in UK schools. Assuming you are talking age 4-7. then second teacher drops but subject teachers never do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We moved to the Bethesda area a month ago and were shocked to hear from the principal that classes had 28-29 kids, one class had 30 kids. This is not what appears on the website and what we were told. We moved from an area in the Midwest with decent public schools and never more than 22-23 kids in elementary. I was an educator in my "first career" and there are reams of research on why this is bad for many reasons. No advanced nation with good schools has classes this big since it is well-known that small class sizes are much better for kids.

Is it worth talking to the Principal about this? Or the PTA?

Could anyone help point me in the right direction of who I should email?

We moved to London 2 years ago, almost every school has exactly 30 kids in every class and there are waiting lists for every grade level at most schools. Every time a child moves there is a new kid in the spot just a day or 2 later.There are 4 classes at each grade level and 2 teaching assistants for each grade level who basically pull kids out for extra help in small groups.

The class sizes are “big” compared to US, but the education my children are getting is fantastic. I seriously don’t know where my kids can go to school when we move back the MCPS schools we toured were really sad looking in comparison, facilities and programming. I don’t think class size is the problem.

You forgot the part about the teachers aide plus reading specialists, designated math and science teachers in UK schools. Assuming you are talking age 4-7. then second teacher drops but subject teachers never do.

Our school must be structured differently. My girlsare in a classroom with 30 kids and only one adult most of the day. The exception is if they are pulled out for a smaller focus group with a TA. When the TA’s come into the classroom, the classroom teacher goes out to do team planning etc. So the result is still 30 kids and one adult.

The exception being that one student in the younger child’s class has a 1:1 para.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We moved to the Bethesda area a month ago and were shocked to hear from the principal that classes had 28-29 kids, one class had 30 kids. This is not what appears on the website and what we were told. We moved from an area in the Midwest with decent public schools and never more than 22-23 kids in elementary. I was an educator in my "first career" and there are reams of research on why this is bad for many reasons. No advanced nation with good schools has classes this big since it is well-known that small class sizes are much better for kids.

Is it worth talking to the Principal about this? Or the PTA?

Could anyone help point me in the right direction of who I should email?

We moved to London 2 years ago, almost every school has exactly 30 kids in every class and there are waiting lists for every grade level at most schools. Every time a child moves there is a new kid in the spot just a day or 2 later.There are 4 classes at each grade level and 2 teaching assistants for each grade level who basically pull kids out for extra help in small groups.

The class sizes are “big” compared to US, but the education my children are getting is fantastic. I seriously don’t know where my kids can go to school when we move back the MCPS schools we toured were really sad looking in comparison, facilities and programming. I don’t think class size is the problem.

You forgot the part about the teachers aide plus reading specialists, designated math and science teachers in UK schools. Assuming you are talking age 4-7. then second teacher drops but subject teachers never do.

Our school must be structured differently. My girlsare in a classroom with 30 kids and only one adult most of the day. The exception is if they are pulled out for a smaller focus group with a TA. When the TA’s come into the classroom, the classroom teacher goes out to do team planning etc. So the result is still 30 kids and one adult.

The exception being that one student in the younger child’s class has a 1:1 para.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One advantage of DCPS over MCPS for ES is class size. My kids are at an upper NW ES and have around 21-23 kids, Lower grades have an aide too.

And there are often two adults since PTAs can fund aides. MoCo prohibits this based on notions of equity and not wanting to worsen the achievement gap, although this measure only stunts the achievement of better performing schools and doesn't actually help anyone in schools that are struggling.

MCPS prohibits this on the basis of equity, full stop. And rightfully so.

That's like saying there should be an extra 25% tax on the rich. But, rather than using that money to help the poor, build roads, fund healthcare, etc - you simply burn the money.

The rich having less is more "equitable," even though it hasn't help the poor or society more broadly in the process.

No. It’s basically to avoid creating private public schools, where wealthy families are able to fund their schools themselves and eventually seek to lower taxes to not have to fund schools in poorer neighborhoods. It also makes sure that funding decisions are centralized and traceable to a central authority for accountability and mission

We are talking about having an aide in the classroom to assist the teacher. That hardly renders a public school private as wouldn't be near enough for people to decide schools didn't need to be adequately funded. And as for accountability, the aide is accountable first to the teacher who is in charge of the teacher and is next managed by the principal (and assistants and others school management) who is then managed by the various layers of MoCo bureaucracy.

There is more than to ensure that an aide - who would barely set any classroom policies, never mind anything broader - remains accountable and consistent with the mission.

And why is that equitable in terms of my kid’s school which has much less money in the pta.

The looks it is counterproductive to try to achieve equity in ways that harm wealthier schools without helping poorer schools. Keeping a W school from having an aide doesn't benefit your child.

Lower performing schools actually have lower class sizes because there is additional funding to support that. Is that equitable? Based on how you are defining equity, it really isn't. However, I am fine with that because that policy actually benefits kids in lower performing schools, and I agree with the policy rationales trying to give such schools/kids a leg up.

But preventing an aide in wealthier schools doesn't actually help anyone. It just hinders some people and I don't believe that the achievement gap should be closed by, in part, preventing wealthier students from achieving as much as possible.

The above. Lower performing schools, which tend to be in less wealthy areas, sometimes have Focus or Title 1 designations and the class sizes are capped much lower. My Bethesda child may not need that same leg up, but it is still just as depressing to go into a classroom of 28ish students and 1 teacher and see how my child is basically getting zero face time with the teacher some days. My child needs learn to read, write, and do math too. An aide would greatly help this (although it would still be a lot of bodies in a small classroom where the Focus and Title 1 schools might only have 18 in the classroom.) So why can't there be lower caps on lower performing schools AND aides in the classrooms of wealthier schools when you have 30 in a room? That would be MORE equitable.

[Anonymous]

The looks it is counterproductive to try to achieve equity in ways that harm wealthier schools without helping poorer schools. Keeping a W school from having an aide doesn't benefit your child.

Lower performing schools actually have lower class sizes because there is additional funding to support that. Is that equitable? Based on how you are defining equity, it really isn't. However, I am fine with that because that policy actually benefits kids in lower performing schools, and I agree with the policy rationales trying to give such schools/kids a leg up.

But preventing an aide in wealthier schools doesn't actually help anyone. It just hinders some people and I don't believe that the achievement gap should be closed by, in part, preventing wealthier students from achieving as much as possible.

The above. Lower performing schools, which tend to be in less wealthy areas, sometimes have Focus or Title 1 designations and the class sizes are capped much lower. My Bethesda child may not need that same leg up, but it is still just as depressing to go into a classroom of 28ish students and 1 teacher and see how my child is basically getting zero face time with the teacher some days. My child needs learn to read, write, and do math too. An aide would greatly help this (although it would still be a lot of bodies in a small classroom where the Focus and Title 1 schools might only have 18 in the classroom.) So why can't there be lower caps on lower performing schools AND aides in the classrooms of wealthier schools when you have 30 in a room? That would be MORE equitable.

+1

[Anonymous]

+1000

Everyone needs to write the state super, county super and board about this. It’s beyond time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:+1000

Everyone needs to write the state super, county super and board about this. It’s beyond time.

It's an election year this year. Hogan cut funding for MoCo and HoCo that used to provide a "high cost of living staff cost adjustment" in the budget. The County Council has been approving developments in zones with overcapacity schools. And the BOE, I'm not sure what they've been doing on this issue, but they don't say much. Yes, 30 kids in a classroom is too many. Vote accordingly.

[Anonymous]

Overall teacher allocations are based on a ratio, I think it's 27.5 students to 1 teacher in grades 3-5 and something a little lower in K-2. However, we all know you can't have a half a child in a classroom and that the students are not always equally spread out among the grades. The principal receives an overall allocation of classroom teachers and has to make a plan for how to distribute them keeping basic guidelines in place. I'm pretty sure you can't go over 32 students in a class, and all sections in a grade level have to be over that before a new teacher will be assigned. Even then, if the numbers are lower in other grade levels, they may make the school reorganize before authorizing an additional teacher. Principals do advocate for additional staffing, and sometimes it works out. Typically, if it's close it doesn't work out until after the first week if school if it's a highly transient area. They wait to see if everyone registered actually shows up first...

[Anonymous]

There is an additional issue in some schools with special ed programs. In these schools, where the special ed kids are mainstreamed for up to 80% of the day, the special ed kids are not included in the total number of kids in the classroom. In these cases, the classroom sizes can get quite large for a majority of the day, but the official MCPS "numbers" make the class size look under the guideline.

Both of my elementary school kids were in classes last year upwards of 32 kids but MCPS insisted that those classes were under the guidelines even though parents of both special needs and non special needs parents brought the issue to the attention of the BOE, and MCPS.

The Principal has "solved" the issue this year by announcing that class lists won't be published at the start of the year, we will only be informed via MCPS connect of our child's teacher.

[Anonymous]

We have 32 kids in 3rd grade. Nothing new here. MCPS sucks

[Anonymous]

23 in my son’s W 2nd grade class. Shows it truly is school by school/ grade by grade

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We have 32 kids in 3rd grade. Nothing new here. MCPS sucks

+1. MCPS parents can no longer brag about how great their schools are, they are an embarassment.

[Anonymous]

24 in k.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We have 32 kids in 3rd grade. Nothing new here. MCPS sucks

We just got allocated an additional 3rd grade teacher and I would be shocked if the classes were up to 32. We were told they were at 28 average with 4 classes. There may have been some last minute enrollment increase, but I can’t believe it would be 11 or more kids. 32 at the start of the year is way above the guidelines.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have 32 kids in 3rd grade. Nothing new here. MCPS sucks

+1. MCPS parents can no longer brag about how great their schools are, they are an embarassment.

Still better than anything around the area, though.