Let’s Talk APS High Schools: 4th one or no?

[Anonymous]

OK. Then where would ATS like to move? You can't have it both ways. No expansion and no move.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:See page 17 of the 2013 CIP here:
https://www.apsva.us/wp-content/uploads/legacy_assets/www/eb0c563b13-CIP2013-22_FINAL.pdf

This plan also had an addition being built at ATS to add capacity there. I believe ATS killed that.

I have this constant internal debate over whether ATS should be shut down because the parents there tend to be such assholes, or whether it should continue because it isolates so many of the assholes away from the rest of us.

Except that ATS didn't kill that, that I know of. They may have raised the usual questions about how the school would continue to function while under construction. I'm sure McKinley raised the same questions. The ATS principal started planning for the eventual addition. The parent community beefed up their PTA bank account so that there'd be money to stock the extra classrooms and do things for the additional teachers and kids. And then nothing happened. The renovation got killed because the money was used elsewhere. We've talked about it at PTA meetings over the last few months, and the principal is open to it, but the funds aren't there anymore.

We are fighting the school board's idea to put 10 additional trailers on the site. (We already have 4.) Just because there is technically room for them on the grounds doesn't mean there is room for 200 (!!!) more kids in the school. We are already over capacity with 539 kids vs. our capacity of 465. The first lunch shift starts at 10:20. Our class sizes are already the largest in the county. There's no way you could shove 200 more kids in there without an addition; the facilities just aren't that big. The SB is not suggesting adding 200 more kids to any other school, so we are fighting it. Can you honestly tell me that you wouldn't fight an effort to add 40% more kids to your school without any sort of infrastructure improvements? I doubt it.

I'm sorry your kid didn't get into ATS, but I'm glad someone so bitter isn't part of our community.

We didn't even apply to ATS. The delusion that everyone wants to be you doesn't do much to combat the asshole reputation.

[Anonymous]

We definitely didn't apply to ATS, LOL. And no one was talking about the trailer issue so please calm down.

[Anonymous]

It's funny how fuzzy memories can be after 5 years. And I'm guessing your family wasn't at ATS at the time. I definitely recall ATS pushing back on growing via an addition. And it's interesting that both of the other two ES additions in that CIP were completed. Oh well, water under the bridge at this point.

[Anonymous]

The option schools aren't fighting expansion. It was the community that decided not to use money to put an addition on ATS. And I think Campbell was studied for an addition, but because of the site, Staff deemed it too expensive for too few seats. Neither school can get bigger except with trailers, whether they are option schools or neighborhood schools. And trailers won't make the other facilities (cafeteria, gym, library) any bigger. Before now, nobody has asked them to grow. I think they are surprised, and want to see what the long-term plan looks like. Because if there are neighborhood schools that are underenrolled, should the option schools keep growing? What is the decision point?

[Anonymous]

That is patently untrue. They were planned for an expansion five years ago. ATS has a huge wait list, no? They should grow. The other options programs have been growing to accommodate demand. ATS has a very large campus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The option schools aren't fighting expansion. It was the community that decided not to use money to put an addition on ATS. And I think Campbell was studied for an addition, but because of the site, Staff deemed it too expensive for too few seats. Neither school can get bigger except with trailers, whether they are option schools or neighborhood schools. And trailers won't make the other facilities (cafeteria, gym, library) any bigger. Before now, nobody has asked them to grow. I think they are surprised, and want to see what the long-term plan looks like. Because if there are neighborhood schools that are underenrolled, should the option schools keep growing? What is the decision point?

ATS isn't fighting expansion? What planet are you living on? You fought it right there in your response.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's funny how fuzzy memories can be after 5 years. And I'm guessing your family wasn't at ATS at the time. I definitely recall ATS pushing back on growing via an addition. And it's interesting that both of the other two ES additions in that CIP were completed. Oh well, water under the bridge at this point.

NP here who was at ATS at the time. The proposed ATS addition didn't happen because the School Board ran out of money. It was third in line behind additions to Ashlawn and McKinley. Those additions both went over budget (shocker) and there wasn't enough left for the ATS construction. The ATS community was largely on board with the addition. I'm sure there were some parents who did push back initially at the idea of growing via an addition, and some who were pleased it was never built. But those parents weren't in the majority. And those parents certainly didn't find a way to kill the addition. The School Board managed that all on its own with poor financial/capital planning. Surely that's not hard to believe?!

[Anonymous]

Not at all hard to believe. Many factors play into which projects go forward. Still the campus is under utilized.

[Anonymous]

This thread is about high schools, not ATS. Maybe we could try not making every discussion about them, hmm?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:How big is the VHC site? Could they put fields at Kenmore but the classrooms there?

Or is this Career Center or nothing? I know that nice big plot at Kenmore is untouchable for a high school building but something has to be built there.

There is a middle school and elementary school already at that site.

She means something else. That's more land than one MS and one ES need. If we can't build anything else on it, we need to sell or swap it for land that we can build more density on.

Uh huh...
and the neighborhood is fighting it

And a land swap... swap what exactly? What land are you looking at that would be a fair trade? Where would the current middle and elementary school go?

It’s the career center. Get used to it.

That doesn't mean the land at Kenmore gets to sit there unused or barely used. APS will need to use that land one way or another and probably sooner rather than later.

How old are your kids?
Mine is a toddler. Ok, sure... Kenmore becomes something else someday, but I wouldn’t count on that even being explored for another 6/7 years. So, it’s really not something to worry about right now.

My kids are in ES, and it is something we need to worry about now. They need a comprehensive plan otherwise neither my kids nor yours will have places to got to school. I don't want to be back at this in five years when they need to move Montessori. Make a public plan NOW. None of this we'll vote and then change course in 6 months and end-run the community.

Well then You definitely need to get on board with the career center being a full fourth.

I really don't. We won't be zoned there, so, not my problem. If they make it a second HB, they will fill the seats, amenities or not.

Cool. Well enjoy your overcrowded WL and STFU.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Middle Class families south of 50 are not looking to be forced to send there kids to a school where they have no opportunities for band, theatre and sports because all of those things are forced to share 1 swing space. This on top of their students losing 3 instruction hours every swimming day while they are bused all over the county for the required swim classes to an offsite pool. Or being forced to have school days that last twice as long as everywhere else in the county to accommodate the fact that there are no facilities on site. They will show up in their matching t-shirts and fight this and its going to get ugly.


No one has said they will have to do any of those things. Use your imagination for something productive, like making the CC a functional site.
Also, totally stupid to suggest music / theatre can’t happen on campus.

Someone on either the County Board or the School Board has said literally all of those things. You just aren't paying attention.

At the CIP the School Board discussed having 2300+ Students at a Career Center school with one room that would be both an auditorium and a gymnasium. Which means that you can't have a band, a chorus, a theatre and a basketball team all using the space at the same time. Where and when would they practice that doesn't overlap with each other? That means that 2300 students would need to be bused to the other high schools to participate in those programs, which means that either they get shortened instruction time so they can get to the other schools, or that all of the other schools have to wait a hour for those students to get bused over before they can start their practices. Which lengthens the school day for everyone. And thats not even getting into what happens when you have 3500-4000+ students vying for limited slots on a team, or in a play.

And this seems just fine to county leadership. At the joint County/School Board working session about the Career Center Erik Gutshall remarked, “I think that equal does not necessarily, when we talk about equal education, equal quality, does not necessarily mean the same.” He then went on to describe how high school students at the Career Center site could possibly fulfill their PE/aquatics education requirement by being bused to other Arlington High Schools as part of an “exchange student” program. Libby Garvey, suggested expanding the high school day from 6 am to 11 pm to accommodate all this busing.

Even assuming Libby was exaggerating to make a point, what parent is going to sign there kid up for a choice school with 3 hour longer days to accommodate travel back and forth to one of the real high schools as an "exchange student." And if they can't make it choice then they will just force the neighborhood to go there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
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Anonymous wrote:
How big is the VHC site? Could they put fields at Kenmore but the classrooms there?

Or is this Career Center or nothing? I know that nice big plot at Kenmore is untouchable for a high school building but something has to be built there.


There is a middle school and elementary school already at that site.


She means something else. That's more land than one MS and one ES need. If we can't build anything else on it, we need to sell or swap it for land that we can build more density on.


Uh huh...
and the neighborhood is fighting it

And a land swap... swap what exactly? What land are you looking at that would be a fair trade? Where would the current middle and elementary school go?

It’s the career center. Get used to it.


That doesn't mean the land at Kenmore gets to sit there unused or barely used. APS will need to use that land one way or another and probably sooner rather than later.


How old are your kids?
Mine is a toddler. Ok, sure... Kenmore becomes something else someday, but I wouldn’t count on that even being explored for another 6/7 years. So, it’s really not something to worry about right now.



My kids are in ES, and it is something we need to worry about now. They need a comprehensive plan otherwise neither my kids nor yours will have places to got to school. I don't want to be back at this in five years when they need to move Montessori. Make a public plan NOW. None of this we'll vote and then change course in 6 months and end-run the community.

Well then You definitely need to get on board with the career center being a full fourth.


I really don't. We won't be zoned there, so, not my problem. If they make it a second HB, they will fill the seats, amenities or not.


Cool. Well enjoy your overcrowded WL and STFU.

HB has mandated limited class sizes and actually has performance facilities. The plan for the Career Center is to have neither of those things. Without any amenities or class size protections there is not reason to think they will fill the seats.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How big is the VHC site? Could they put fields at Kenmore but the classrooms there?

Or is this Career Center or nothing? I know that nice big plot at Kenmore is untouchable for a high school building but something has to be built there.

There is a middle school and elementary school already at that site.

She means something else. That's more land than one MS and one ES need. If we can't build anything else on it, we need to sell or swap it for land that we can build more density on.

Uh huh...
and the neighborhood is fighting it

And a land swap... swap what exactly? What land are you looking at that would be a fair trade? Where would the current middle and elementary school go?

It’s the career center. Get used to it.

That doesn't mean the land at Kenmore gets to sit there unused or barely used. APS will need to use that land one way or another and probably sooner rather than later.

How old are your kids?
Mine is a toddler. Ok, sure... Kenmore becomes something else someday, but I wouldn’t count on that even being explored for another 6/7 years. So, it’s really not something to worry about right now.

My kids are in ES, and it is something we need to worry about now. They need a comprehensive plan otherwise neither my kids nor yours will have places to got to school. I don't want to be back at this in five years when they need to move Montessori. Make a public plan NOW. None of this we'll vote and then change course in 6 months and end-run the community.

Well then You definitely need to get on board with the career center being a full fourth.

I really don't. We won't be zoned there, so, not my problem. If they make it a second HB, they will fill the seats, amenities or not.

I live really close to the Career Center. I agree that the whole site should be overhauled, but I'm not sold on the fact that it needs to be a comprehensive high school. I recognize there is a shortage of HS seats, but I also remember that Wakefield was not at capacity. I think a 2nd HB would be great, given the popularity of the program, but will that result in a North HB and a South HB? Or will all kids who apply be evenly distributed? If the Career Center becomes a 4th comprehensive, I don't see how it will have all the same amenities, without the EDC property being used, and even then, I don't think it works unless it's a 6 story plus building -- with a roof top pool? As great as it would be for the kiddos to go to a new school, it only works if its a choice school or we shift the boundaries, to take pressure off W-L, and I think that will result in groups jockeying to go there and stay out of Wakefield, leaving Wakefield full of FARMs. You'd have to make the Career Center a neighborhood school and Wakefield an option school to prevent segregation or something. As much as my neighbors want their own HS, it just doesn't seem reasonable.

Given the size of Arlington, you'd be better off telling HS kids to find their own way to school (via public transit or cycling) and randomly assigning them or putting a grade at each of the presumably 4 locations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How big is the VHC site? Could they put fields at Kenmore but the classrooms there?

Or is this Career Center or nothing? I know that nice big plot at Kenmore is untouchable for a high school building but something has to be built there.

There is a middle school and elementary school already at that site.

She means something else. That's more land than one MS and one ES need. If we can't build anything else on it, we need to sell or swap it for land that we can build more density on.

Uh huh...
and the neighborhood is fighting it

And a land swap... swap what exactly? What land are you looking at that would be a fair trade? Where would the current middle and elementary school go?

It’s the career center. Get used to it.

That doesn't mean the land at Kenmore gets to sit there unused or barely used. APS will need to use that land one way or another and probably sooner rather than later.

How old are your kids?
Mine is a toddler. Ok, sure... Kenmore becomes something else someday, but I wouldn’t count on that even being explored for another 6/7 years. So, it’s really not something to worry about right now.

My kids are in ES, and it is something we need to worry about now. They need a comprehensive plan otherwise neither my kids nor yours will have places to got to school. I don't want to be back at this in five years when they need to move Montessori. Make a public plan NOW. None of this we'll vote and then change course in 6 months and end-run the community.

Well then You definitely need to get on board with the career center being a full fourth.

I really don't. We won't be zoned there, so, not my problem. If they make it a second HB, they will fill the seats, amenities or not.

I live really close to the Career Center. I agree that the whole site should be overhauled, but I'm not sold on the fact that it needs to be a comprehensive high school. I recognize there is a shortage of HS seats, but I also remember that Wakefield was not at capacity. I think a 2nd HB would be great, given the popularity of the program, but will that result in a North HB and a South HB? Or will all kids who apply be evenly distributed? If the Career Center becomes a 4th comprehensive, I don't see how it will have all the same amenities, without the EDC property being used, and even then, I don't think it works unless it's a 6 story plus building -- with a roof top pool? As great as it would be for the kiddos to go to a new school, it only works if its a choice school or we shift the boundaries, to take pressure off W-L, and I think that will result in groups jockeying to go there and stay out of Wakefield, leaving Wakefield full of FARMs. You'd have to make the Career Center a neighborhood school and Wakefield an option school to prevent segregation or something. As much as my neighbors want their own HS, it just doesn't seem reasonable.

Given the size of Arlington, you'd be better off telling HS kids to find their own way to school (via public transit or cycling) and randomly assigning them or putting a grade at each of the presumably 4 locations.

I can only assume you haven't spent any time looking at the projections data. Otherwise I cannot imagine how you could say all of this with a straight face.