Let’s Talk APS High Schools: 4th one or no?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well, that's the kind of suggestions you get when you want to build a 4,000 student school on the smallest parcel of land because "we can't touch the north Arlington schools". We're already in a defeatist attitude. We're all telling ourselves we're being pragmatic, when we've already lost, because we have less to work with and refuse to as the rest of the county to give up its precious space to balance the load across 4 campuses.

I've spent significant time on both Yorktown and W-L campuses. Both have very little additional space to give. Maybe some, but not much. Remember also, the more kids per school the fewer resources to go around in terms of extracurricular opportunities.

The right space is Kenmore, but Tannia Talento and the Glen Carlyn neighborhood have shut that down. It's the largest APS parcel in the area, and it's being blocked by special interests. Not all loud and NIMBY parents are in north Arlington.

I took a moment and went and looked at the Google maps of all the campuses again. There is no easy answer. I don't want any kids to lose access to outdoor space. That's why I can't wrap my mind around the CC site. I thought it would just be 2,500 kids, which was a lot. Now I see in the slides that the numbers are 4,100. Just like you said, the more kids the less opportunities. So we'll put the most kids on the smallest site. There's an old article about Robinson in Fairfax and how kids didn't even try out for teams because the competition was so steep. How will that work at a school with even more kids and less space?

Even with Glen Carlyn opposing it, wouldn't it be cheaper to build it there? What would happen? Would Glen Carlyn kids refuse to go there?

What if the county rents some of that empty office space that we all hear about? NSF in Ballston or somewhere in Pentagon City, and turn the CC site into a library along Columbia Pike (where the EDC is) and turn the rest of the land into sports fields and a pool*? You could spread kids from all schools across all facilities for maximum use (I read somewhere the pools are actually underutilized, even though somewhere, W-L and Yorktown can't spare any space). Here a shuttle bus company and run routes, like colleges do.

*I promise this not some crazy Columbia Pike end game to get a pool. This is just a resident spitballing. Not a resource sucking attempt at getting rid of students and just building a pool. I know if read this, that is what I would think.

I wish APS would put this to bed once and for all on some sort of public document. The County will not give them a use permit to build on the site. No one can build on property (even if you own it) if the County will not give you a use/building permit. I'm no Talento fan, but I don't think she really has anything to do with it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh come on! This argument fools no one. The neighborhood is the wealthiest in south Arlington other than Arlington ridge. They've "arrived" and they want an amenity filled public high school that will boost there property values and allow them to leave Wakefield. TheY are in no way "taking on for the team".

DP. There are insufficient seats at the HS level in the county for the kids currently in the pipeline. This is a fact. The bubble is already in school now. The question is where and how do you put them.

A lot of us believe that APS cannot put together enough sufficiently compelling small programs to equally draw kids from the three comprehensive high schools. And even then, those kids still go back and take resources from the home schools in the form of participation in extracurriculars or seats in classes that aren't offered in the program. A fourth comprehensive high school is really the only guaranteed solution. From an acreage perspective, the Kenmore site is hands down the best option, but the politics surrounding it are unreal.

I don't know if the CC site is the right one, but I know we need seats or all the kids in Arlington will be going to school on the crazy shift schedule that was tossed out as an idea a few years ago. Building a lesser-than school doesn't work, unless all the resources at the other three schools become pooled-resources. It's no longer the Yorktown stadium or the Wakefield pool. Teams will be scheduled from four high schools across three schools-worth of fields, pools, band rooms, and theaters. That's the reality. We have enough kids coming nito the system to fill another entire high school. Rather than simply mocking those families, tell me exactly where you would put all these kids. Many of whom may want the whole high school experience in order to both enjoy HS and be competitive for college applications.

Signed,
Family not zoned for Wakefield or a future HS anywhere in south arlington

This is the only thing we should be discussing. Quickly getting a full and equitable 4th school up and running.

Yes, EQUITABLE. Meaning, if you want "equal facilities" then you also need to not inequitably siphon off the UMC from Wakefield. I would support a 4th hs at cc. But only with farms rate equity as a precondition. I'd also support an athletic facility on the site and a modern school in a nearby office building, but I'm sure that's a nonstarter for a variety of reasons.

Yes we all get it. You agree to a school that didn’t effect your school and property values. Doesn’t matter if the facilities are less than. You are being really selfish and myopic.

wrong. I support one that doesn't damage anyone's property value. There's a win win here that doesn't involve concentrating poverty at Wakefield or turning the cc into some outpost of north Arlington.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Oh come on! This argument fools no one. The neighborhood is the wealthiest in south Arlington other than Arlington ridge. They've "arrived" and they want an amenity filled public high school that will boost there property values and allow them to leave Wakefield. TheY are in no way "taking on for the team".


DP. There are insufficient seats at the HS level in the county for the kids currently in the pipeline. This is a fact. The bubble is already in school now. The question is where and how do you put them.

A lot of us believe that APS cannot put together enough sufficiently compelling small programs to equally draw kids from the three comprehensive high schools. And even then, those kids still go back and take resources from the home schools in the form of participation in extracurriculars or seats in classes that aren't offered in the program. A fourth comprehensive high school is really the only guaranteed solution. From an acreage perspective, the Kenmore site is hands down the best option, but the politics surrounding it are unreal.

I don't know if the CC site is the right one, but I know we need seats or all the kids in Arlington will be going to school on the crazy shift schedule that was tossed out as an idea a few years ago. Building a lesser-than school doesn't work, unless all the resources at the other three schools become pooled-resources. It's no longer the Yorktown stadium or the Wakefield pool. Teams will be scheduled from four high schools across three schools-worth of fields, pools, band rooms, and theaters. That's the reality. We have enough kids coming nito the system to fill another entire high school. Rather than simply mocking those families, tell me exactly where you would put all these kids. Many of whom may want the whole high school experience in order to both enjoy HS and be competitive for college applications.

Signed,
Family not zoned for Wakefield or a future HS anywhere in south arlington


This is the only thing we should be discussing. Quickly getting a full and equitable 4th school up and running.


Yes, EQUITABLE. Meaning, if you want "equal facilities" then you also need to not inequitably siphon off the UMC from Wakefield. I would support a 4th hs at cc. But only with farms rate equity as a precondition. I'd also support an athletic facility on the site and a modern school in a nearby office building, but I'm sure that's a nonstarter for a variety of reasons.


Yes we all get it. You agree to a school that didn’t effect your school and property values. Doesn’t matter if the facilities are less than. You are being really selfish and myopic.


wrong. I support one that doesn't damage anyone's property value. There's a win win here that doesn't involve concentrating poverty at Wakefield or turning the cc into some outpost of north Arlington.

South Arlington owners need to be real careful about not pulling out the "it will damage my property value" line. Cause if that's a valid argument in these discussions then no home North of 50 will ever be zoned south of 50 again and the segregation will get worse not better. "It will hurt my property value" is why Arlington Forest didn't get moved to Wakefield last year. It would prevent any UMC neighborhood from ever getting zoned to Wakefield in the future. Which would keep Wakefield from ever improving and definitely not help your own personal property values. Building a viable CC and splitting economically disadvantaged more equally would help you not hurt you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Oh come on! This argument fools no one. The neighborhood is the wealthiest in south Arlington other than Arlington ridge. They've "arrived" and they want an amenity filled public high school that will boost there property values and allow them to leave Wakefield. TheY are in no way "taking on for the team".


DP. There are insufficient seats at the HS level in the county for the kids currently in the pipeline. This is a fact. The bubble is already in school now. The question is where and how do you put them.

A lot of us believe that APS cannot put together enough sufficiently compelling small programs to equally draw kids from the three comprehensive high schools. And even then, those kids still go back and take resources from the home schools in the form of participation in extracurriculars or seats in classes that aren't offered in the program. A fourth comprehensive high school is really the only guaranteed solution. From an acreage perspective, the Kenmore site is hands down the best option, but the politics surrounding it are unreal.

I don't know if the CC site is the right one, but I know we need seats or all the kids in Arlington will be going to school on the crazy shift schedule that was tossed out as an idea a few years ago. Building a lesser-than school doesn't work, unless all the resources at the other three schools become pooled-resources. It's no longer the Yorktown stadium or the Wakefield pool. Teams will be scheduled from four high schools across three schools-worth of fields, pools, band rooms, and theaters. That's the reality. We have enough kids coming nito the system to fill another entire high school. Rather than simply mocking those families, tell me exactly where you would put all these kids. Many of whom may want the whole high school experience in order to both enjoy HS and be competitive for college applications.

Signed,
Family not zoned for Wakefield or a future HS anywhere in south arlington


This is the only thing we should be discussing. Quickly getting a full and equitable 4th school up and running.


Yes, EQUITABLE. Meaning, if you want "equal facilities" then you also need to not inequitably siphon off the UMC from Wakefield. I would support a 4th hs at cc. But only with farms rate equity as a precondition. I'd also support an athletic facility on the site and a modern school in a nearby office building, but I'm sure that's a nonstarter for a variety of reasons.


Yes we all get it. You agree to a school that didn’t effect your school and property values. Doesn’t matter if the facilities are less than. You are being really selfish and myopic.


wrong. I support one that doesn't damage anyone's property value. There's a win win here that doesn't involve concentrating poverty at Wakefield or turning the cc into some outpost of north Arlington.

South Arlington owners need to be real careful about not pulling out the "it will damage my property value" line. Cause if that's a valid argument in these discussions then no home North of 50 will ever be zoned south of 50 again and the segregation will get worse not better. "It will hurt my property value" is why Arlington Forest didn't get moved to Wakefield last year. It would prevent any UMC neighborhood from ever getting zoned to Wakefield in the future. Which would keep Wakefield from ever improving and definitely not help your own personal property values. Building a viable CC and splitting economically disadvantaged more equally would help you not hurt you.

Yup, that's what I want. I live in Nauck.

[Anonymous]

Lots if middle class families bought in Claremont for immersion.
Not only will they lost that, but now they have to really worry about Wakefield.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Lots if middle class families bought in Claremont for immersion.
Not only will they lost that, but now they have to really worry about Wakefield.

Well, if they're already in Immersion and that's very important to your family, they will get to stay in even if it moves. And if Claremont becomes a neighborhood school, then it will be YOUR neighborhood school. I fail to see the problem there. And I think (hope) from the people I know who are working on the CC we're all in agreement that CC and Wakefield should both come out of this situation as equally strong schools.

[Anonymous]

Yes, that is not good for Claremont. I sympathize with them. But they had to realize that would change because too many people had the same idea and the immersion program became captive to that and the other two neighborhoods. They were victim of their own success in getting in.

I live in barcroft. I know we are too far west to be zoned for a future CC site. The CC site will come on line when my kid starts going there. If the SB continues drawing boundaries to increase segregation, like did just did, twice, will move. We may move before hand since the SB has screwed Kenmore.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes, that is not good for Claremont. I sympathize with them. But they had to realize that would change because too many people had the same idea and the immersion program became captive to that and the other two neighborhoods. They were victim of their own success in getting in.

I live in barcroft. I know we are too far west to be zoned for a future CC site. The CC site will come on line when my kid starts going there. If the SB continues drawing boundaries to increase segregation, like did just did, twice, will move. We may move before hand since the SB has screwed Kenmore.

How was Kenmore screwed?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, that is not good for Claremont. I sympathize with them. But they had to realize that would change because too many people had the same idea and the immersion program became captive to that and the other two neighborhoods. They were victim of their own success in getting in.

I live in barcroft. I know we are too far west to be zoned for a future CC site. The CC site will come on line when my kid starts going there. If the SB continues drawing boundaries to increase segregation, like did just did, twice, will move. We may move before hand since the SB has screwed Kenmore.

How was Kenmore screwed?

Not PP, but I'm pretty upset that they chose the option that both pushed Kenmore over capacity and increased the fr/l rate. The option that would have moved Immersion there was a lot better for both of those considerations, and would have made a lot of sense since they are string considering moving at least one of the ES immersion programs to that site. They'll likely have to revisit this issue that they just decided.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I took a moment and went and looked at the Google maps of all the campuses again. There is no easy answer. I don't want any kids to lose access to outdoor space. That's why I can't wrap my mind around the CC site. I thought it would just be 2,500 kids, which was a lot. Now I see in the slides that the numbers are 4,100. Just like you said, the more kids the less opportunities. So we'll put the most kids on the smallest site. There's an old article about Robinson in Fairfax and how kids didn't even try out for teams because the competition was so steep. How will that work at a school with even more kids and less space?

Even with Glen Carlyn opposing it, wouldn't it be cheaper to build it there? What would happen? Would Glen Carlyn kids refuse to go there?

What if the county rents some of that empty office space that we all hear about? NSF in Ballston or somewhere in Pentagon City, and turn the CC site into a library along Columbia Pike (where the EDC is) and turn the rest of the land into sports fields and a pool*? You could spread kids from all schools across all facilities for maximum use (I read somewhere the pools are actually underutilized, even though somewhere, W-L and Yorktown can't spare any space). Here a shuttle bus company and run routes, like colleges do.

*I promise this not some crazy Columbia Pike end game to get a pool. This is just a resident spitballing. Not a resource sucking attempt at getting rid of students and just building a pool. I know if read this, that is what I would think.

FWIW, I went to Robinson when it had 6000 students. Yes, competition for the popular sports teams was tough- especially soccer. But there were still plenty of teams that were basically no cut, like track and field, cross country, swim/dive and crew. And there were a ton of other extracurricular activities, most of which had enough kids and resources to perform at a very high level. With a big school, there are more places to find a niche.

There were a lot of different class choices and there were multiple sections of almost every class except a few higher level electives and off-beat AP classes, so you were rarely limited by schedule. The Art department alone had Art 1, 2, 3 and 4, Commercial Art, Pottery, Photography and there are probably a few others I am forgetting.

That being said, fitting 4000 students at the Career Center site seems a little nuts- the multiple fields, large gym and performing arts spaces at Robinson were heavily used for 12-15 hours a day between class and multiple sports practices, and community events when available.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, that is not good for Claremont. I sympathize with them. But they had to realize that would change because too many people had the same idea and the immersion program became captive to that and the other two neighborhoods. They were victim of their own success in getting in.

I live in barcroft. I know we are too far west to be zoned for a future CC site. The CC site will come on line when my kid starts going there. If the SB continues drawing boundaries to increase segregation, like did just did, twice, will move. We may move before hand since the SB has screwed Kenmore.

How was Kenmore screwed?

Not PP, but I'm pretty upset that they chose the option that both pushed Kenmore over capacity and increased the fr/l rate. The option that would have moved Immersion there was a lot better for both of those considerations, and would have made a lot of sense since they are string considering moving at least one of the ES immersion programs to that site. They'll likely have to revisit this issue that they just decided.

+1 - I couldn't understand why they scrapped moving the immersion option so quickly - seemed like there were a lot more Spanish speakers at Kenmore, close to elementary immersion program, and more centrally located (somewhat), because Gunston is really a haul for some people who want to continue immersion in middle school. On top of that, it had lower FRL rates for Kenmore and TJ - I think. I HOPE they will look at the MS boundaries one more time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I took a moment and went and looked at the Google maps of all the campuses again. There is no easy answer. I don't want any kids to lose access to outdoor space. That's why I can't wrap my mind around the CC site. I thought it would just be 2,500 kids, which was a lot. Now I see in the slides that the numbers are 4,100. Just like you said, the more kids the less opportunities. So we'll put the most kids on the smallest site. There's an old article about Robinson in Fairfax and how kids didn't even try out for teams because the competition was so steep. How will that work at a school with even more kids and less space?

Even with Glen Carlyn opposing it, wouldn't it be cheaper to build it there? What would happen? Would Glen Carlyn kids refuse to go there?

What if the county rents some of that empty office space that we all hear about? NSF in Ballston or somewhere in Pentagon City, and turn the CC site into a library along Columbia Pike (where the EDC is) and turn the rest of the land into sports fields and a pool*? You could spread kids from all schools across all facilities for maximum use (I read somewhere the pools are actually underutilized, even though somewhere, W-L and Yorktown can't spare any space). Here a shuttle bus company and run routes, like colleges do.

*I promise this not some crazy Columbia Pike end game to get a pool. This is just a resident spitballing. Not a resource sucking attempt at getting rid of students and just building a pool. I know if read this, that is what I would think.

FWIW, I went to Robinson when it had 6000 students. Yes, competition for the popular sports teams was tough- especially soccer. But there were still plenty of teams that were basically no cut, like track and field, cross country, swim/dive and crew. And there were a ton of other extracurricular activities, most of which had enough kids and resources to perform at a very high level. With a big school, there are more places to find a niche.

There were a lot of different class choices and there were multiple sections of almost every class except a few higher level electives and off-beat AP classes, so you were rarely limited by schedule. The Art department alone had Art 1, 2, 3 and 4, Commercial Art, Pottery, Photography and there are probably a few others I am forgetting.

That being said, fitting 4000 students at the Career Center site seems a little nuts- the multiple fields, large gym and performing arts spaces at Robinson were heavily used for 12-15 hours a day between class and multiple sports practices, and community events when available.

It is great (and encouraging) to hear your perspective and experience with a very large high school. APS needs to be planning this very thoughtfully.
I think this high number (over 4000) includes the adult students (~200) that are currently on the site, several special program students (~150) as well as all the students who come and go throughout the day to take electives (600-900 - in several shifts=300 at any time)

Mine was less than 500 people so this is all new and crazy to me.

[Anonymous]

I went to Lake Braddock with similar numbers. I agree with the Robinson poster. Huge schools can actually provide more opportunities. The cc has to be equal in amenities to accomplish that.
I will say we had practice fields a couple of blocks away. So, that wouldn’t be bad in my estimation.
I don’t think there’s a hope in hell APS wrestles Walter Reed community center away from the county, but we could at least ask. I’m not familiar enough with the area to know other possible plots of land that could be cobbled together.
Honestly it seems the CC and Walter Reed together would solve all our problems.
Of course the county board will simply say we have competing needs, and to suck it. I’m reeeeally staring to hate the board. I’m a Democrat and I’m starting to feel like their priorities don’t align with mine at all. Very frustrating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lots if middle class families bought in Claremont for immersion.
Not only will they lost that, but now they have to really worry about Wakefield.

Well, if they're already in Immersion and that's very important to your family, they will get to stay in even if it moves. And if Claremont becomes a neighborhood school, then it will be YOUR neighborhood school. I fail to see the problem there. And I think (hope) from the people I know who are working on the CC we're all in agreement that CC and Wakefield should both come out of this situation as equally strong schools.

Uh, I've attended all but one of the working group meetings. When did they discuss this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I went to Lake Braddock with similar numbers. I agree with the Robinson poster. Huge schools can actually provide more opportunities. The cc has to be equal in amenities to accomplish that.
I will say we had practice fields a couple of blocks away. So, that wouldn’t be bad in my estimation.
I don’t think there’s a hope in hell APS wrestles Walter Reed community center away from the county, but we could at least ask. I’m not familiar enough with the area to know other possible plots of land that could be cobbled together.
Honestly it seems the CC and Walter Reed together would solve all our problems.
Of course the county board will simply say we have competing needs, and to suck it. I’m reeeeally staring to hate the board. I’m a Democrat and I’m starting to feel like their priorities don’t align with mine at all. Very frustrating.

Lake Braddock has 60 acres; Robinson has 78. How is APS going to cram 4000 kids into a single site and foster any sense of community?