Did anyone attend the Choice survey community meeting yesterday?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If it is that kids from lower SES aren't at the same starting point as the higher SES kids, then MCPS is trying to address that by offering more support to such kids. Like I stated, I'm ok with them offering additional supports after school, and the summer, as a PP mentioned. All for free. But, like I stated, a Black kid from a well to do family has equal opportunity compared to any other kid from any other race. So, this shouldn't be about race, but that's what the reports make it out to be when they talk about URM and increasing their participation. Yes, it so happens that more URM are lower income; that still doesn't make it right to change the standards to benefit one race over another.

And regarding the argument that it is illegal for MD to look at race in determining entry, they are trying to skirt around that by changing the standards.

No. Race matters. It makes us (or, at least, some of us) to argue that race doesn't matter and that SES is the only thing that matters. But race actually does also matter. It will be a great day when race no longer matters in the US, but we're not there yet.

Nonetheless, it is illegal for MCPS to use race in admissions decisions.

In context of this argument - that URM start off with a disadvantage in academics, as represented by the kids watching the game - a Black kid from a wealthy family is not disadvantaged. There are black kids in magnets and compacted math.

[Anonymous]

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

What is the barrier to entry for these kids? The main point seems to be that their starting point is further back, that they don't do as well on the tests. MCPS already provides more services to such kids, and I'm ok with that. Additionally, I'd be ok with MCPS providing after school tutoring, free snacks, free prep classes to such kids. But, at the end of the day, they should be held to the same standards as everyone else.

What exactly needs to change about the admissions criteria to have more URM apply? If the problem is that the parents don't know about the programs, then why don't they do a better job of reaching out rather than changing the criteria?

The report actually looked specifically at that question.

People keep saying, "They should be held to the same standards." Fine. What standards?

At least for HGC, Cold Spring kids are already held at higher standard. Just look at the median accepted score. The admission is already done by cluster.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Please. Life is unfair. I tell my kids that all the time. I am a PP who grew up poor with uneducated parents who don't speak English. I know better than most of you how unfair life is to kids. It doesn't mean that we should expect less from them. They have more hurdles to over come, no doubt. But, it doesn't help them later in life if we keep expecting less and less of them.

I have no issues with the district spending more per student in lower income areas, smaller class sizes, more support. But, at the end of the day, they should still be held to the same standards as everyone else in terms of educational standards. It won't help them later in life if we keep lowering the bar for them. Provide them with more support, but don't dumb things down for them. That won't help.

Who is proposing to dumb things down?

One thing that was talked about was changing the admissions criteria to admit more urm. The indirect result is that less qualified students would be admitted compared to now. That, in effect, is dumbing down, or lowering the standards. Also, if some kids are admitted who under today's criteria wouldn't be, it is entirely possible such kids would not be able to keep up with the higher achieving kids in the magnet. I have no doubt that if they admit lesser qualified kids, the district will lower the standards within the magnets to prevent such kids from struggling too much in the magnets.

No, that's your assumption. Your assumption is:

1. The current admissions criteria select the best-qualified students.
2. Therefore, any changes to the admissions criteria will result in the selection of less-qualified students.

(Actually, your underlying assumption is -- it's not possible to admit more poor kids, black kids, or brown kids without lowering the admissions standards.)

The assumption of MCPS is that poor kids, black kids and brown kids cannot compete on academic merit. Their assumption is that even early intervention will not increase their intelligence enough to compete, so lower the admissions standards. MCPS is either racist or they have data that proves that blacks have lower intelligence. Which one is it?

Every test of intelligence and aptitude out there (all IQ tests, SAT, GRE, GMAT, ASVAB etc.) show that blacks have lower IQ/academic performance by about one standard deviation. That's simply a fact that most people refuse to acknowledge. Either all of these tests aren't accurate or are biased in some way (although they all do a good job of predicting outcomes) or the fact is that for whatever reason blacks (and to a slightly lesser extent Hispanics) in the US aren't as academically gifted. It sucks but it's reality. MCPS isn't going to magically fix something that is occurring everywhere, no matter how much they want to.

[Anonymous]

SAT, GRE, etc. don't measure aptitude, don't claim to measure aptitude, and don't predict academic performance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Please. Life is unfair. I tell my kids that all the time. I am a PP who grew up poor with uneducated parents who don't speak English. I know better than most of you how unfair life is to kids. It doesn't mean that we should expect less from them. They have more hurdles to over come, no doubt. But, it doesn't help them later in life if we keep expecting less and less of them.

I have no issues with the district spending more per student in lower income areas, smaller class sizes, more support. But, at the end of the day, they should still be held to the same standards as everyone else in terms of educational standards. It won't help them later in life if we keep lowering the bar for them. Provide them with more support, but don't dumb things down for them. That won't help.

Who is proposing to dumb things down?

One thing that was talked about was changing the admissions criteria to admit more urm. The indirect result is that less qualified students would be admitted compared to now. That, in effect, is dumbing down, or lowering the standards. Also, if some kids are admitted who under today's criteria wouldn't be, it is entirely possible such kids would not be able to keep up with the higher achieving kids in the magnet. I have no doubt that if they admit lesser qualified kids, the district will lower the standards within the magnets to prevent such kids from struggling too much in the magnets.

No, that's your assumption. Your assumption is:

1. The current admissions criteria select the best-qualified students.
2. Therefore, any changes to the admissions criteria will result in the selection of less-qualified students.

(Actually, your underlying assumption is -- it's not possible to admit more poor kids, black kids, or brown kids without lowering the admissions standards.)

The assumption of MCPS is that poor kids, black kids and brown kids cannot compete on academic merit. Their assumption is that even early intervention will not increase their intelligence enough to compete, so lower the admissions standards. MCPS is either racist or they have data that proves that blacks have lower intelligence. Which one is it?

Every test of intelligence and aptitude out there (all IQ tests, SAT, GRE, GMAT, ASVAB etc.) show that blacks have lower IQ/academic performance by about one standard deviation. That's simply a fact that most people refuse to acknowledge. Either all of these tests aren't accurate or are biased in some way (although they all do a good job of predicting outcomes) or the fact is that for whatever reason blacks (and to a slightly lesser extent Hispanics) in the US aren't as academically gifted. It sucks but it's reality. MCPS isn't going to magically fix something that is occurring everywhere, no matter how much they want to.

Hispanics are not a race and historically lumped in with whites just ad Arabs are. No reason genetically to explain lower IQs. US blacks typically aren't even trying as a whole so I wouldn't put too much weight into these so called studies. It's all cultural/ societal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Please. Life is unfair. I tell my kids that all the time. I am a PP who grew up poor with uneducated parents who don't speak English. I know better than most of you how unfair life is to kids. It doesn't mean that we should expect less from them. They have more hurdles to over come, no doubt. But, it doesn't help them later in life if we keep expecting less and less of them.

I have no issues with the district spending more per student in lower income areas, smaller class sizes, more support. But, at the end of the day, they should still be held to the same standards as everyone else in terms of educational standards. It won't help them later in life if we keep lowering the bar for them. Provide them with more support, but don't dumb things down for them. That won't help.

Who is proposing to dumb things down?

One thing that was talked about was changing the admissions criteria to admit more urm. The indirect result is that less qualified students would be admitted compared to now. That, in effect, is dumbing down, or lowering the standards. Also, if some kids are admitted who under today's criteria wouldn't be, it is entirely possible such kids would not be able to keep up with the higher achieving kids in the magnet. I have no doubt that if they admit lesser qualified kids, the district will lower the standards within the magnets to prevent such kids from struggling too much in the magnets.

No, that's your assumption. Your assumption is:

1. The current admissions criteria select the best-qualified students.
2. Therefore, any changes to the admissions criteria will result in the selection of less-qualified students.

(Actually, your underlying assumption is -- it's not possible to admit more poor kids, black kids, or brown kids without lowering the admissions standards.)

The assumption of MCPS is that poor kids, black kids and brown kids cannot compete on academic merit. Their assumption is that even early intervention will not increase their intelligence enough to compete, so lower the admissions standards. MCPS is either racist or they have data that proves that blacks have lower intelligence. Which one is it?

Every test of intelligence and aptitude out there (all IQ tests, SAT, GRE, GMAT, ASVAB etc.) show that blacks have lower IQ/academic performance by about one standard deviation. That's simply a fact that most people refuse to acknowledge. Either all of these tests aren't accurate or are biased in some way (although they all do a good job of predicting outcomes) or the fact is that for whatever reason blacks (and to a slightly lesser extent Hispanics) in the US aren't as academically gifted. It sucks but it's reality. MCPS isn't going to magically fix something that is occurring everywhere, no matter how much they want to.

Hispanics are not a race and historically lumped in with whites just ad Arabs are. No reason genetically to explain lower IQs. US blacks typically aren't even trying as a whole so I wouldn't put too much weight into these so called studies. It's all cultural/ societal.

Most breakdown of test scores by demographics do separate out Hispanics.

If "Blacks typically aren't even trying as a whole" (your words, not mine), then why is MCPS trying so hard to get them to apply to HGC? And, if they truly aren't trying as a whole (again, your words, not mine), then isn't that part of the problem - that Blacks are trying to do better academically?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Every test of intelligence and aptitude out there (all IQ tests, SAT, GRE, GMAT, ASVAB etc.) show that blacks have lower IQ/academic performance by about one standard deviation. That's simply a fact that most people refuse to acknowledge. Either all of these tests aren't accurate or are biased in some way (although they all do a good job of predicting outcomes) or the fact is that for whatever reason blacks (and to a slightly lesser extent Hispanics) in the US aren't as academically gifted. It sucks but it's reality. MCPS isn't going to magically fix something that is occurring everywhere, no matter how much they want to.

So a person whose ancestors went from Europe to Latin America and thence to the US is less intelligent and less academically gifted than a person whose ancestors went directly from Europe to the US -- and this demonstrates that intelligence/aptitude is genetic? Well, well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Most breakdown of test scores by demographics do separate out Hispanics.

There are white Latinos -- for example, Pope Francis (and Don Francisco!). There are black Latinos -- for example, Celia Cruz. There are Indian/native Latinos -- for example, Evo Morales. And there are Asian Latinos -- for example, Franklin Chang-Diaz.

My great-grandmother had a grandson who emigrated from Poland to Brazil and a daughter who emigrated from Poland to New York. Are my Poland-to-New York relatives genetically more intelligent than my Poland-to-Brazil relatives?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Please. Life is unfair. I tell my kids that all the time. I am a PP who grew up poor with uneducated parents who don't speak English. I know better than most of you how unfair life is to kids. It doesn't mean that we should expect less from them. They have more hurdles to over come, no doubt. But, it doesn't help them later in life if we keep expecting less and less of them.

I have no issues with the district spending more per student in lower income areas, smaller class sizes, more support. But, at the end of the day, they should still be held to the same standards as everyone else in terms of educational standards. It won't help them later in life if we keep lowering the bar for them. Provide them with more support, but don't dumb things down for them. That won't help.

Who is proposing to dumb things down?

One thing that was talked about was changing the admissions criteria to admit more urm. The indirect result is that less qualified students would be admitted compared to now. That, in effect, is dumbing down, or lowering the standards. Also, if some kids are admitted who under today's criteria wouldn't be, it is entirely possible such kids would not be able to keep up with the higher achieving kids in the magnet. I have no doubt that if they admit lesser qualified kids, the district will lower the standards within the magnets to prevent such kids from struggling too much in the magnets.

No, that's your assumption. Your assumption is:

1. The current admissions criteria select the best-qualified students.
2. Therefore, any changes to the admissions criteria will result in the selection of less-qualified students.

(Actually, your underlying assumption is -- it's not possible to admit more poor kids, black kids, or brown kids without lowering the admissions standards.)

The assumption of MCPS is that poor kids, black kids and brown kids cannot compete on academic merit. Their assumption is that even early intervention will not increase their intelligence enough to compete, so lower the admissions standards. MCPS is either racist or they have data that proves that blacks have lower intelligence. Which one is it?

Every test of intelligence and aptitude out there (all IQ tests, SAT, GRE, GMAT, ASVAB etc.) show that blacks have lower IQ/academic performance by about one standard deviation. That's simply a fact that most people refuse to acknowledge. Either all of these tests aren't accurate or are biased in some way (although they all do a good job of predicting outcomes) or the fact is that for whatever reason blacks (and to a slightly lesser extent Hispanics) in the US aren't as academically gifted. It sucks but it's reality. MCPS isn't going to magically fix something that is occurring everywhere, no matter how much they want to.

Hispanics are not a race and historically lumped in with whites just ad Arabs are. No reason genetically to explain lower IQs. US blacks typically aren't even trying as a whole so I wouldn't put too much weight into these so called studies. It's all cultural/ societal.

Most breakdown of test scores by demographics do separate out Hispanics.

If "Blacks typically aren't even trying as a whole" (your words, not mine), then why is MCPS trying so hard to get them to apply to HGC? And, if they truly aren't trying as a whole (again, your words, not mine), then isn't that part of the problem - that Blacks are trying to do better academically?

I know they do recently but not 30 years ago. The point is like the other poster just brought to light there is no reason from a genetic stand point for the group being called Hispanics to be less intelligent then whites or other groups.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Please. Life is unfair. I tell my kids that all the time. I am a PP who grew up poor with uneducated parents who don't speak English. I know better than most of you how unfair life is to kids. It doesn't mean that we should expect less from them. They have more hurdles to over come, no doubt. But, it doesn't help them later in life if we keep expecting less and less of them.

I have no issues with the district spending more per student in lower income areas, smaller class sizes, more support. But, at the end of the day, they should still be held to the same standards as everyone else in terms of educational standards. It won't help them later in life if we keep lowering the bar for them. Provide them with more support, but don't dumb things down for them. That won't help.

Who is proposing to dumb things down?

One thing that was talked about was changing the admissions criteria to admit more urm. The indirect result is that less qualified students would be admitted compared to now. That, in effect, is dumbing down, or lowering the standards. Also, if some kids are admitted who under today's criteria wouldn't be, it is entirely possible such kids would not be able to keep up with the higher achieving kids in the magnet. I have no doubt that if they admit lesser qualified kids, the district will lower the standards within the magnets to prevent such kids from struggling too much in the magnets.

No, that's your assumption. Your assumption is:

1. The current admissions criteria select the best-qualified students.
2. Therefore, any changes to the admissions criteria will result in the selection of less-qualified students.

(Actually, your underlying assumption is -- it's not possible to admit more poor kids, black kids, or brown kids without lowering the admissions standards.)

The assumption of MCPS is that poor kids, black kids and brown kids cannot compete on academic merit. Their assumption is that even early intervention will not increase their intelligence enough to compete, so lower the admissions standards. MCPS is either racist or they have data that proves that blacks have lower intelligence. Which one is it?

Every test of intelligence and aptitude out there (all IQ tests, SAT, GRE, GMAT, ASVAB etc.) show that blacks have lower IQ/academic performance by about one standard deviation. That's simply a fact that most people refuse to acknowledge. Either all of these tests aren't accurate or are biased in some way (although they all do a good job of predicting outcomes) or the fact is that for whatever reason blacks (and to a slightly lesser extent Hispanics) in the US aren't as academically gifted. It sucks but it's reality. MCPS isn't going to magically fix something that is occurring everywhere, no matter how much they want to.

Hispanics are not a race and historically lumped in with whites just ad Arabs are. No reason genetically to explain lower IQs. US blacks typically aren't even trying as a whole so I wouldn't put too much weight into these so called studies. It's all cultural/ societal.

While technically true, Hispanics in the US are almost all mestizo.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

While technically true, Hispanics in the US are almost all mestizo.

Citation please. Actually, first your definition of "mestizo", please, and then a citation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:SAT, GRE, etc. don't measure aptitude, don't claim to measure aptitude, and don't predict academic performance.

They don't claim to measure aptitude (although they correlate very strongly to IQ tests) but they most definitely predict academic performance. University of Minnesota researchers used SAT and course data for over a million students and found strong correlation between SAT and academic performance. How well would a kid with a 750/1600 SAT score do at MIT?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

While technically true, Hispanics in the US are almost all mestizo.

Citation please. Actually, first your definition of "mestizo", please, and then a citation.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mestizo

Two thirds of Hispanics in the US are from Mexico. A large number are from central and South America. All mestizo.

http://www.pewhispanic.org/2013/06/19/diverse-origins-the-nations-14-largest-hispanic-origin-groups/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Please. Life is unfair. I tell my kids that all the time. I am a PP who grew up poor with uneducated parents who don't speak English. I know better than most of you how unfair life is to kids. It doesn't mean that we should expect less from them. They have more hurdles to over come, no doubt. But, it doesn't help them later in life if we keep expecting less and less of them.

I have no issues with the district spending more per student in lower income areas, smaller class sizes, more support. But, at the end of the day, they should still be held to the same standards as everyone else in terms of educational standards. It won't help them later in life if we keep lowering the bar for them. Provide them with more support, but don't dumb things down for them. That won't help.

Who is proposing to dumb things down?

One thing that was talked about was changing the admissions criteria to admit more urm. The indirect result is that less qualified students would be admitted compared to now. That, in effect, is dumbing down, or lowering the standards. Also, if some kids are admitted who under today's criteria wouldn't be, it is entirely possible such kids would not be able to keep up with the higher achieving kids in the magnet. I have no doubt that if they admit lesser qualified kids, the district will lower the standards within the magnets to prevent such kids from struggling too much in the magnets.

No, that's your assumption. Your assumption is:

1. The current admissions criteria select the best-qualified students.
2. Therefore, any changes to the admissions criteria will result in the selection of less-qualified students.

(Actually, your underlying assumption is -- it's not possible to admit more poor kids, black kids, or brown kids without lowering the admissions standards.)

The assumption of MCPS is that poor kids, black kids and brown kids cannot compete on academic merit. Their assumption is that even early intervention will not increase their intelligence enough to compete, so lower the admissions standards. MCPS is either racist or they have data that proves that blacks have lower intelligence. Which one is it?

Every test of intelligence and aptitude out there (all IQ tests, SAT, GRE, GMAT, ASVAB etc.) show that blacks have lower IQ/academic performance by about one standard deviation. That's simply a fact that most people refuse to acknowledge. Either all of these tests aren't accurate or are biased in some way (although they all do a good job of predicting outcomes) or the fact is that for whatever reason blacks (and to a slightly lesser extent Hispanics) in the US aren't as academically gifted. It sucks but it's reality. MCPS isn't going to magically fix something that is occurring everywhere, no matter how much they want to.

Hispanics are not a race and historically lumped in with whites just ad Arabs are. No reason genetically to explain lower IQs. US blacks typically aren't even trying as a whole so I wouldn't put too much weight into these so called studies. It's all cultural/ societal.

Most breakdown of test scores by demographics do separate out Hispanics.

If "Blacks typically aren't even trying as a whole" (your words, not mine), then why is MCPS trying so hard to get them to apply to HGC? And, if they truly aren't trying as a whole (again, your words, not mine), then isn't that part of the problem - that Blacks are trying to do better academically?

I know they do recently but not 30 years ago. The point is like the other poster just brought to light there is no reason from a genetic stand point for the group being called Hispanics to be less intelligent then whites or other groups.

Well, significantly different generic heritage for one. Hispanics in the US generally have significant Amerindian background; about 50% on average.