Did anyone attend the Choice survey community meeting yesterday?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

MCPS already provides a boost to those who "start further back" by providing smaller class sizes and more services in such schools. What you are saying here is to not only provide the extra boost to have them start at the same place, but make their finish line closer so that they don't have to run as far.

If the smaller class sizes in Title I or Focus schools are so great, how come the DCUMmies aren't all clamoring to send their children to Title I schools? Also, it is a fact that there are very many poor children in MCPS who are not in Title I or Focus schools.

DCUM's insistence that the CogAT is a true and unbiased assessment of intellectual ability is baffling.

Actually, some DCUMers do move out that way for the smaller class sizes. It's been mentioned on this forum a few times.

I agree, not all poor children go to Title 1 or Focus schools, but like I stated earlier, not all URM are poor, and not all Asian/Whites are wealthy. So to lower the criteria for URM is a slap in the face to poorer white/Asians kids who start off far back in the race, especially some Asian kids whose parents don't speak English. These kids are even more at a disadvantage than lower income kids whose parents speak English.

They don't just look at CoGat scores; they also look at other things. If it was just purely scores, you'd probably see a lot more Asian kids.

This. I know my friend's son was not admitted to the magnet MS despite having higher scores than my son, because their home MS was ranked higher than our home MS. We both are from the same racial group and all other things are equal. There is a need to have more seats in these programs because there are more qualified candidates, but there is not a need to water down these programs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hey, my kids are short and weak. Can they get an extra boost when playing school sponsored sports?

I am short. From what I remember, during PE, I could not get over those damned hurdles no matter how hard I tried. I got an F for that section of my PE class. How come they don't adjust for height and physicality in PE or school sponsored sports? I could never get an A in PE. It affected my overall GPA.

Fortunately there have been improvements in PE since you were in school, and people no longer get As simply for being tall (or Fs simply for being short).

It's still a lot easier for taller people to get over those hurdles than us shorties. We were born with a disadvantage so we should get a "boost" in PE and school athletics for it.

Another PE analogy: The PE class is assessing running ability, defined as who crosses the finish line first. Runner A starts 40 yards from the finish line. Runners B and C start 50 yards from the finish line. Runner D starts 100 yards from the finish line. Runner A crosses the finish line first, and Runner D crosses the finish line last. So Runner A is the best and Runner D is the worst -- right? Wrong. "Who crosses the finish line first" is not an appropriate measure of running ability when the runners start in different places.

MCPS already provides a boost to those who "start further back" by providing smaller class sizes and more services in such schools. What you are saying here is to not only provide the extra boost to have them start at the same place, but make their finish line closer so that they don't have to run as far.

Here's another example:

Case 1:
Kid A comes from an upper/middle class home - parents could be lawyers, earning six figures.
Kid B comes from a lower SES, parents don't speak English, don't have higher than a MS, maybe ES level education.

Should this Kid A be allowed to have lower test scores than Kid B to get into a test in magnet? Absolutely not, right?

Case 2:
But, what if Kid A (from a high SES) is Black or Hispanic and Kid B (low SES) is Asian or White?
Now, should Kid A be allowed to have lower test scores than Kid B to get into a test in magnet?

If they base it purely on race, then case 2 is what they are saying should happen. In what world does this make sense?

This. We're in Silver Spring at a Title 1 school. The class sizes are capped at 21 (I believe?), and our school has all sorts of resource teachers (math/reading/speech) that my friend's kids don't have at their non-Title 1/non-Focus schools.

But, I volunteer at the school often, and I think it is completely unrealistic to expect schools to close the achievement gap on their own. Kids are not educated in a bubble. What happens at home, and how involved the parents are makes such a difference, and you can't hold schools accountable for what goes on outside of school.

Interestingly we have a somewhat large population of African American students who are actually from Africa (Nigeria), who perform very well academically. The parents help their kids with homework, attend school events, practice spelling tests with the kids. Why is this different from other AA students who are not immigrants?

I teach at a Focus school, and what I put in bold above is my biggest frustration. I can teach/help/provide/support until the cows come home, but administrators and central office explicitly tell us that what the PP stated above cannot be considered a factor as to why we have not closed the achievement gap. I understand that they don't want to hear excuses and they don't want expectations to be lowered, but the fact is that 6 instructional hours of school oftentimes cannot be the be-all/ end-all when it comes to education and closing the achievement gap. Of course there are exceptions, and some students are flourishing and achieving great things. But the majority of the population I work with are not. And we keep being told that if we just begin this initiative or implement that intervention then everyone will be on or above grade level and if they aren't then it's our fault. And as a teacher of course I feel like it's our fault. But there are other factors at play.

When my students don't have sufficient food at home it affects their learning.
When my students don't have anyone at home who is willing or able to help with homework or to reinforce a concept it affects their learning.
When my students are sharing one room of a house with their entire family (including babies who are making noise throughout the night) it affects their learning.
When my students don't have clothing that is appropriate for the weather it affects their learning.
When my students don't have background knowledge to draw from it affects their learning.

You are absolutely correct that kids are not educated in a bubble, but MCPS will never actually acknowledge that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
You are absolutely correct that kids are not educated in a bubble, but MCPS will never actually acknowledge that.

Honestly, it's not just MCPS. So many school administrators from all over the country think this way -- that if the schools/teachers try harder, throw more money at the problem, you can close the achievement gap.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You are absolutely correct that kids are not educated in a bubble, but MCPS will never actually acknowledge that.

Honestly, it's not just MCPS. So many school administrators from all over the country think this way -- that if the schools/teachers try harder, throw more money at the problem, you can close the achievement gap.

But what's the alternative? No public school administrator can publicly say, "The schools are a reflection of an unjust society, we can't fix that, that's just how it is." -- well, not and keep their job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
but, it is not and should not be the job of MCPS to be their parents, to ensure the kids care about their school work, do their hw, etc. Unless MCPS takes every URM kid and parents them, they will never start at the same place.

Life is unfair. Most of us don't come from wealthy families. But, lower income kids whose parents still care about their education can succeed just as equally, no matter the color of their skin.

BTW, I've posted this before, not all URM kids are low income and start far behind in the race. I hope MCPS realizes this when making any changes to the entrance criteria.

And poor kids who picked the wrong parents are just out of luck. Sorry, kids. Life is unfair.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You are absolutely correct that kids are not educated in a bubble, but MCPS will never actually acknowledge that.

Honestly, it's not just MCPS. So many school administrators from all over the country think this way -- that if the schools/teachers try harder, throw more money at the problem, you can close the achievement gap.

Focus teacher PP here. I understand, but I think it would help our mindset a lot if they would say something like "Look, we know you're up against a lot of tough stuff but we are here to provide you with the tools and support you need to provide the best education you can for your students." Instead they basically are sticking their fingers in their ears, closing their eyes and refusing to even acknowledge the elephant in the room. I also understand it's like this all over the country, not just in MCPS.

I forgot to mention in my previous post that we also have a HGC at our school (hopefully I'm not outing myself). Over the years we have had some students who would have been highly qualified applicants for the HGC, but the HGC application materials were not understood by the parents so they never applied even though we tried our best to get the information to them in their language. There's no guarantee they would have gotten in, but you never know if you don't try.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
but, it is not and should not be the job of MCPS to be their parents, to ensure the kids care about their school work, do their hw, etc. Unless MCPS takes every URM kid and parents them, they will never start at the same place.

Life is unfair. Most of us don't come from wealthy families. But, lower income kids whose parents still care about their education can succeed just as equally, no matter the color of their skin.

BTW, I've posted this before, not all URM kids are low income and start far behind in the race. I hope MCPS realizes this when making any changes to the entrance criteria.

And poor kids who picked the wrong parents are just out of luck. Sorry, kids. Life is unfair.

I guess to make life fair, parents of high achieving kids should be made to foster the low achieving kids? How else will be bridge the achievement gap if different kids have different types of parents?

[Anonymous]

For the PPs that argue that the CoGAT, Raven, or SCAT are in some way racially biased - where is the proof. What do you propose instead? Absolutely every single test MCPS gives shows a huge gap in minority performance. Whatever test the give will give the same results. Or do we not test and say "oh you are smart for a latino kid. Admitted."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Focus teacher PP here. I understand, but I think it would help our mindset a lot if they would say something like "Look, we know you're up against a lot of tough stuff but we are here to provide you with the tools and support you need to provide the best education you can for your students." Instead they basically are sticking their fingers in their ears, closing their eyes and refusing to even acknowledge the elephant in the room. I also understand it's like this all over the country, not just in MCPS.

I forgot to mention in my previous post that we also have a HGC at our school (hopefully I'm not outing myself). Over the years we have had some students who would have been highly qualified applicants for the HGC, but the HGC application materials were not understood by the parents so they never applied even though we tried our best to get the information to them in their language. There's no guarantee they would have gotten in, but you never know if you don't try.

How could this have been fixed?
Maybe make them attend a workshop to help them fill the application? But what if the parents are illiterate? Perhaps people in charge of the ESOL and FARMS program should fill it out for them?

Maybe all eligible children in an HGC hosting school, should be made to take the admission test, and if they get in, the school completes their paperwork? Perhaps also doing intensive intervention for the entire class in 2nd grade of HGC hosting school, will allow these kids to do well in 3rd grade on the admission test?

They can have 5 extra seats in each HGC to accommodate the HGC hosting school kids, recommended by the teachers. If these kids don't want to be in the program or cannot cut it there, they can opt out, but at least they need to try it out for a semester.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You are absolutely correct that kids are not educated in a bubble, but MCPS will never actually acknowledge that.

Honestly, it's not just MCPS. So many school administrators from all over the country think this way -- that if the schools/teachers try harder, throw more money at the problem, you can close the achievement gap.

But what's the alternative? No public school administrator can publicly say, "The schools are a reflection of an unjust society, we can't fix that, that's just how it is." -- well, not and keep their job.

Or more accurately, the schools are a reflection of the intelligence and commitment to education of the parents of the students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For the PPs that argue that the CoGAT, Raven, or SCAT are in some way racially biased - where is the proof. What do you propose instead? Absolutely every single test MCPS gives shows a huge gap in minority performance. Whatever test the give will give the same results. Or do we not test and say "oh you are smart for a latino kid. Admitted."

Students should be treated as individuals for these tests. Made up groups don't help. If they were to use demographics in the selection process itvshould be strictly FARMS.

[Anonymous]

I Have a very bright but dyslexic son. I know he does not belong in a HGC with a focus on writing. Fair? No..but I know it is not the right place for him. Being Dyslexic is not fair. Life just isn't

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For the PPs that argue that the CoGAT, Raven, or SCAT are in some way racially biased - where is the proof. What do you propose instead? Absolutely every single test MCPS gives shows a huge gap in minority performance. Whatever test the give will give the same results. Or do we not test and say "oh you are smart for a latino kid. Admitted."

Nobody has argued this.

The questions are:

1. What do you want to measure?
2. How well do CoGAT or Raven or whatever measure that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You are absolutely correct that kids are not educated in a bubble, but MCPS will never actually acknowledge that.

Honestly, it's not just MCPS. So many school administrators from all over the country think this way -- that if the schools/teachers try harder, throw more money at the problem, you can close the achievement gap.

But what's the alternative? No public school administrator can publicly say, "The schools are a reflection of an unjust society, we can't fix that, that's just how it is." -- well, not and keep their job.

Or more accurately, the schools are a reflection of the intelligence and commitment to education of the parents of the students.

No, that is not accurate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the PPs that argue that the CoGAT, Raven, or SCAT are in some way racially biased - where is the proof. What do you propose instead? Absolutely every single test MCPS gives shows a huge gap in minority performance. Whatever test the give will give the same results. Or do we not test and say "oh you are smart for a latino kid. Admitted."

Nobody has argued this.

The questions are:

1. What do you want to measure?
2. How well do CoGAT or Raven or whatever measure that?

1) Innate intelligence.
2) Better than any tool other than a clinically administered IQ test which would be prohibitively expensive.