Did anyone attend the Choice survey community meeting yesterday?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:different criteria for different race groups is a direct insult to every race

Good news! Nobody is proposing that.

Then what is recommendation 3a? What do you think they are proposing?

I'm new pp, who cares what it is proposing. It's not MCPS proposing it, it's an independent study. We don't have and probably will not implement the majority of the recommendations. But what I do know is the test in magnets are going nowhere. I think what the community needs to be pushing is more HGC/ magnet slots and more whole school magnets. We are not all against each other don't fall for the bait. All kids can benefit from updating the choice programs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:different criteria for different race groups is a direct insult to every race

Good news! Nobody is proposing that.

Then what is recommendation 3a? What do you think they are proposing?

There is no recommendation 3a. Recommendation 3 is:

Implement modifications to the selection process used for academically competitive programs in MCPS, comprising elementary centers for highly gifted students and secondary magnet programs, to focus these programs on selecting equitably from among those applicants that demonstrate a capacity to thrive in the program, that include use of non-cognitive criteria, group-specific norms that benchmark student performance against school peers with comparable backgrounds, and/or a process that offers automatic admissions to the programs for students in the top 5-10% of sending elementary or middle schools in the district.

And I think that what they're proposing is exactly what they're proposing.

In bolded, students would be compared to their own background - race and SES? So, that is effectively stating that an Asian/white kid has to score much higher than a Black/Hispanic kid since it is a fact that the former group scores much higher in *all* standardized tests compared to the latter group.

Again, how is that fair to the poor Asian/white kid whose parents don't have the means, maybe don't even speak English, compared to the wealthy Black kid whose parents are lawyers?

If they mean strictly by SES, that would be better, but if they include race, it is not right. I think taking the top 5 to 10% of each school is ok, too, since the point of magnets is to serve those kids whose needs cannot be met at the home school.

But, again, if this means that they have to lower the standards in the magnet classrooms so that it is not too rigorous for some kids, then it is dumbing it down, and I'm not in favor of that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:different criteria for different race groups is a direct insult to every race

Good news! Nobody is proposing that.

Then what is recommendation 3a? What do you think they are proposing?

There is no recommendation 3a. Recommendation 3 is:

Implement modifications to the selection process used for academically competitive programs in MCPS, comprising elementary centers for highly gifted students and secondary magnet programs, to focus these programs on selecting equitably from among those applicants that demonstrate a capacity to thrive in the program, that include use of non-cognitive criteria, group-specific norms that benchmark student performance against school peers with comparable backgrounds, and/or a process that offers automatic admissions to the programs for students in the top 5-10% of sending elementary or middle schools in the district.

And I think that what they're proposing is exactly what they're proposing.

In bolded, students would be compared to their own background - race and SES? So, that is effectively stating that an Asian/white kid has to score much higher than a Black/Hispanic kid since it is a fact that the former group scores much higher in *all* standardized tests compared to the latter group.

Again, how is that fair to the poor Asian/white kid whose parents don't have the means, maybe don't even speak English, compared to the wealthy Black kid whose parents are lawyers?

If they mean strictly by SES, that would be better, but if they include race, it is not right. I think taking the top 5 to 10% of each school is ok, too, since the point of magnets is to serve those kids whose needs cannot be met at the home school.

But, again, if this means that they have to lower the standards in the magnet classrooms so that it is not too rigorous for some kids, then it is dumbing it down, and I'm not in favor of that.

I agree argue that then.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
In bolded, students would be compared to their own background - race and SES? So, that is effectively stating that an Asian/white kid has to score much higher than a Black/Hispanic kid since it is a fact that the former group scores much higher in *all* standardized tests compared to the latter group.

Again, how is that fair to the poor Asian/white kid whose parents don't have the means, maybe don't even speak English, compared to the wealthy Black kid whose parents are lawyers?

If they mean strictly by SES, that would be better, but if they include race, it is not right. I think taking the top 5 to 10% of each school is ok, too, since the point of magnets is to serve those kids whose needs cannot be met at the home school.

But, again, if this means that they have to lower the standards in the magnet classrooms so that it is not too rigorous for some kids, then it is dumbing it down, and I'm not in favor of that.

No. Because if MCPS did that, MCPS would be breaking the law. MCPS may not consider race in admissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Please. Life is unfair. I tell my kids that all the time. I am a PP who grew up poor with uneducated parents who don't speak English. I know better than most of you how unfair life is to kids. It doesn't mean that we should expect less from them. They have more hurdles to over come, no doubt. But, it doesn't help them later in life if we keep expecting less and less of them.

I have no issues with the district spending more per student in lower income areas, smaller class sizes, more support. But, at the end of the day, they should still be held to the same standards as everyone else in terms of educational standards. It won't help them later in life if we keep lowering the bar for them. Provide them with more support, but don't dumb things down for them. That won't help.

Who is proposing to dumb things down?

One thing that was talked about was changing the admissions criteria to admit more urm. The indirect result is that less qualified students would be admitted compared to now. That, in effect, is dumbing down, or lowering the standards. Also, if some kids are admitted who under today's criteria wouldn't be, it is entirely possible such kids would not be able to keep up with the higher achieving kids in the magnet. I have no doubt that if they admit lesser qualified kids, the district will lower the standards within the magnets to prevent such kids from struggling too much in the magnets.

No, that's your assumption. Your assumption is:

1. The current admissions criteria select the best-qualified students.
2. Therefore, any changes to the admissions criteria will result in the selection of less-qualified students.

(Actually, your underlying assumption is -- it's not possible to admit more poor kids, black kids, or brown kids without lowering the admissions standards.)

The assumption of MCPS is that poor kids, black kids and brown kids cannot compete on academic merit. Their assumption is that even early intervention will not increase their intelligence enough to compete, so lower the admissions standards. MCPS is either racist or they have data that proves that blacks have lower intelligence. Which one is it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How can they have different standards for URM? Isn't that illegal?

No, it happens all the time. Ask anyone who works in admissions to colleges/universities/law schools, etc.

But in MD it is illegal. http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-4th-circuit/1161454.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:different criteria for different race groups is a direct insult to every race

Good news! Nobody is proposing that.

Then what is recommendation 3a? What do you think they are proposing?

I'm new pp, who cares what it is proposing. It's not MCPS proposing it, it's an independent study. We don't have and probably will not implement the majority of the recommendations. But what I do know is the test in magnets are going nowhere. I think what the community needs to be pushing is more HGC/ magnet slots and more whole school magnets. We are not all against each other don't fall for the bait. All kids can benefit from updating the choice programs.

I wish I can be as confident as you are. that is why people who care need to go to these meetings. We also need to write on the feedback website to push for more gifted program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Please. Life is unfair. I tell my kids that all the time. I am a PP who grew up poor with uneducated parents who don't speak English. I know better than most of you how unfair life is to kids. It doesn't mean that we should expect less from them. They have more hurdles to over come, no doubt. But, it doesn't help them later in life if we keep expecting less and less of them.

I have no issues with the district spending more per student in lower income areas, smaller class sizes, more support. But, at the end of the day, they should still be held to the same standards as everyone else in terms of educational standards. It won't help them later in life if we keep lowering the bar for them. Provide them with more support, but don't dumb things down for them. That won't help.

Who is proposing to dumb things down?

One thing that was talked about was changing the admissions criteria to admit more urm. The indirect result is that less qualified students would be admitted compared to now. That, in effect, is dumbing down, or lowering the standards. Also, if some kids are admitted who under today's criteria wouldn't be, it is entirely possible such kids would not be able to keep up with the higher achieving kids in the magnet. I have no doubt that if they admit lesser qualified kids, the district will lower the standards within the magnets to prevent such kids from struggling too much in the magnets.

No, that's your assumption. Your assumption is:

1. The current admissions criteria select the best-qualified students.
2. Therefore, any changes to the admissions criteria will result in the selection of less-qualified students.

(Actually, your underlying assumption is -- it's not possible to admit more poor kids, black kids, or brown kids without lowering the admissions standards.)

Wrong. I am stating that lower income kids, of any race, can do it. It is the assumption that the criteria must be changed in order to admit more URM that assumes brown/black kids aren't smart enough to compete for those spots.

What is the barrier to entry for these kids? The main point seems to be that their starting point is further back, that they don't do as well on the tests. MCPS already provides more services to such kids, and I'm ok with that. Additionally, I'd be ok with MCPS providing after school tutoring, free snacks, free prep classes to such kids. But, at the end of the day, they should be held to the same standards as everyone else.

What exactly needs to change about the admissions criteria to have more URM apply? If the problem is that the parents don't know about the programs, then why don't they do a better job of reaching out rather than changing the criteria?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

What is the barrier to entry for these kids? The main point seems to be that their starting point is further back, that they don't do as well on the tests. MCPS already provides more services to such kids, and I'm ok with that. Additionally, I'd be ok with MCPS providing after school tutoring, free snacks, free prep classes to such kids. But, at the end of the day, they should be held to the same standards as everyone else.

What exactly needs to change about the admissions criteria to have more URM apply? If the problem is that the parents don't know about the programs, then why don't they do a better job of reaching out rather than changing the criteria?

The report actually looked specifically at that question.

People keep saying, "They should be held to the same standards." Fine. What standards?

[Anonymous]

Lets move away from discussing why MCPS is doing and why it should not do it, because we all know there will be a change and lets be part of the solution. Instead lets turn this forum into discussing what possible ideas we as parents can and should advocate. I suggest few here. Have to say though that I only skimmed the report.
1. MCPS should be discouraged from one-time-change-in-the-system policy. Instead, as they have done it with C 2.0, there should be clear road map of actions for each year and tractable goals.
2. MCPS should revisit current programs in place, such as weekend school programs and summer extended year programs and to tie those programs to the Choice equal-race-representation goals. It is not clear what MCPS is planning to do on this front. (So far it is only speculations that new and local norms will be used for the selection process instead.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

What is the barrier to entry for these kids? The main point seems to be that their starting point is further back, that they don't do as well on the tests. MCPS already provides more services to such kids, and I'm ok with that. Additionally, I'd be ok with MCPS providing after school tutoring, free snacks, free prep classes to such kids. But, at the end of the day, they should be held to the same standards as everyone else.

What exactly needs to change about the admissions criteria to have more URM apply? If the problem is that the parents don't know about the programs, then why don't they do a better job of reaching out rather than changing the criteria?

The report actually looked specifically at that question.

People keep saying, "They should be held to the same standards." Fine. What standards?

What is the standards now, and what is not "fair" about it? They don't look at just test scores now; they look at other factors.

If it is that kids from lower SES aren't at the same starting point as the higher SES kids, then MCPS is trying to address that by offering more support to such kids. Like I stated, I'm ok with them offering additional supports after school, and the summer, as a PP mentioned. All for free. But, like I stated, a Black kid from a well to do family has equal opportunity compared to any other kid from any other race. So, this shouldn't be about race, but that's what the reports make it out to be when they talk about URM and increasing their participation. Yes, it so happens that more URM are lower income; that still doesn't make it right to change the standards to benefit one race over another.

And regarding the argument that it is illegal for MD to look at race in determining entry, they are trying to skirt around that by changing the standards.

[Anonymous]

Most kids could not handle the HGC or MS magnet curriculum and workload. They are pretty demanding.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The assumption of MCPS is that poor kids, black kids and brown kids cannot compete on academic merit. Their assumption is that even early intervention will not increase their intelligence enough to compete, so lower the admissions standards. MCPS is either racist or they have data that proves that blacks have lower intelligence. Which one is it?

No, those are your assumptions.

MCPS's assumption is that poor kids, black kids, and brown kids are underrepresented in MCPS special programs. Except actually that's not an assumption, it's a fact.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

If it is that kids from lower SES aren't at the same starting point as the higher SES kids, then MCPS is trying to address that by offering more support to such kids. Like I stated, I'm ok with them offering additional supports after school, and the summer, as a PP mentioned. All for free. But, like I stated, a Black kid from a well to do family has equal opportunity compared to any other kid from any other race. So, this shouldn't be about race, but that's what the reports make it out to be when they talk about URM and increasing their participation. Yes, it so happens that more URM are lower income; that still doesn't make it right to change the standards to benefit one race over another.

And regarding the argument that it is illegal for MD to look at race in determining entry, they are trying to skirt around that by changing the standards.

No. Race matters. It makes us (or, at least, some of us) to argue that race doesn't matter and that SES is the only thing that matters. But race actually does also matter. It will be a great day when race no longer matters in the US, but we're not there yet.

Nonetheless, it is illegal for MCPS to use race in admissions decisions.

[Anonymous]

^^^makes us feel better to argue...