If AP is more popular/better/more flexible, why does FCPS put IB in all the lower-ranked schools?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm switching my child from our home high school to a high school that offers the IB program because I find IB to be the superior program and my kid can commit to doing the full diploma.
My reasons:
1. It is a recognized qualification for university, both in the US and internationally.
2. The full diploma program is more rigorous than anything I have seen from high schools which offer the AP program.
3. The level and amount of writing required is much higher, which I think is good preparation for university.
4. I prefer the IB exam format to the AP format.

The one major drawback is the lack of flexibility.

We are considering doing the same thing and moving our child from an AP school to an IB school when she starts HS. Your reasons sum up our own reasons well.

Friends have a son who did the IB diploma recently in FCPS, and he told them that in his first freshman history class at college, the professor asked, "Who here has written a research paper of at least 3,000 words?" This kid was the only student who raised his hand. (The IB diploma requires a 4,000-word research paper.) So far the student reports that he feels well prepared for the research and writing demands of college, and friends around him seem to struggle with the idea of writing anything in depth or at length, and the kid credits his confidence to IB. I know that's just one anecdotal example but it does make an impression on me.

We are still looking at AP as well. Unfortunately, while IB schools offer detailed, presentations dedicated to explaining IB for those making the choice between IB and AP, the AP schools (at least the ones around us) don't seem to bother to explain or promote AP much, from the information we've been given.

It's also interesting to see the posts on here about how AP is more "popular" than IB and the implication that the more popular program should somehow "win" and the less popular should be dumped. I think the issue is that parents and students, when looking at both programs, find the more prescriptive IB curriculum and organization are harder to understand at first than AP, which is a simple "a la carte" system. A school administrator at an HS curriculum night this week referred to AP courses as being in "silos" whereas IB had students make connections across all the courses. And this was an administrator at an AP school, promoting AP. The comparison and presentation didn't exactly win me over for AP.

I'm the poster you quoted, and while I obviously prefer IB I have to admit that there are some pros to the AP structure.

It is far easier to specialize in an area of skill or interest in AP, because AP students do not have to take an AP in a subject they dislike while IB students must take their IB classes across all areas of the curriculum.

AP is better known by many US universities and often gets more college credits than IB.

It is possible to self-study APs and take the test, getting university credit for a high enough score even without the class.

AP students seem to be able to take more AP tests than IB tests taken by IB students, which is another reason AP students can get more college credit.

[Anonymous]

Colleges are moving away from awarding actual credit for AP exams and only allow them to be used to waive prerequisites.

I see benefits in both programs, but I think IB is likely more challenging as it requires IB courses in all subject areas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Colleges don't ask to see AP scores during the application process, only SAT/ACT scores and SAT subject test scores. AP scores are sent after acceptance and the college lets the student know how much credit has been earned and which courses the student can then register for.

Yes. But, the transcript does list the classes. It is my understanding that the higher level IB classes require more than one year to count. I'm not 100%on this.

The courses show on the transcript, they just don't take the tests until the end of senior year. Scores come back after they have graduated.

[Anonymous]

Some facts to keep in mind:

1. Every one of the highest ranked schoos in FCPS has AP, and not one has parents actively lobbying for IB.

2. IB schools are primarily concentrated in low-income areas where parents are less likely to advocate aggressively for their children's interests, but instead are grateful their children are receiving a free public education.

3. FCPS has not added IB to any of the newer high schools in the county - Centreville, Westfield or South County. Every new IB program is at the elementary or middle school level and intended to shore up struggling IB diploma programs at the feeder high schools.

4. When FCPS moved kids from AP schools to South Lakes, an IB school, parents were furious, not happy about the purported advantages of IB. Some houses in the neighborhoods affected immediately lost substantial market value and have never recovered, seven years later.

5. Loudoun tries to emulate FCPS in many respects, but has not introduced IB at a single high school.

[Anonymous]

I don't want my child specializing in a very limited area of study in high school till possibly senior year. I want them first to have a solid background. Why can't most of the schools be AP with some further specialized classes at the senior level that involve some additional writing. Kind of like doing a thesis to graduate from college.

[Anonymous]

I don't want my child specializing in a very limited area of study in high school till possibly senior year. I want them first to have a solid background. Why can't most of the schools be AP with some further specialized classes at the senior level that involve some additional writing. Kind of like doing a thesis to graduate from college.

Yes, learning to write (which really means learning to think and organize effectively) is key. I grew up during the times of no AP or IB (a LONG time ago). However, we had a course called "Advanced Composition" which I took my senior year. No single course prepared me like that one did. I learned how to research, use evidence in an argumentative paper, write persuasively, write fiction pieces in various styles, etc. The teacher was known throughout the school as pretty eccentric (he wore the same suit everyday), but he gave incredible feedback and worked hard to make the class an excellent preparation for college writing. I owe him a lot.

I think people put too much focus on the "college credit" aspect of the AP program. Preparing for college should be the focus (not necessarily starting college early).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't want my child specializing in a very limited area of study in high school till possibly senior year. I want them first to have a solid background. Why can't most of the schools be AP with some further specialized classes at the senior level that involve some additional writing. Kind of like doing a thesis to graduate from college.

I think this is the way AP is going with their new AP Capstone Program:

https://aphighered.collegeboard.org/exams/ap-capstone

[Anonymous]

This whole AP/IB debate is getting quite stale. Have your child take the most challenging courses they desire at the high school that is offered to them. If that is AP, fine. If that is IB, fine. If it is honors, fine. If it is (gasp) regular courses, fine. The endless need of people on this forum to justify why one is better than the other seems to be more of a pride issue than anything else. I took more AP courses than I can remember when I was in high school. Once you get to college, guess what? Nobody cares whether you took AP, IB, honors, homeschool, whatever. All they care is how you perform once in you're in college. And, if you go to decent college, no amount of AP or IB is going to fully prepare you - you're going to be challenged even further beyond those high school courses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Have your child take the most challenging courses they desire at the high school that is offered to them.

FCPS has high schools that offer AP and other high schools that offer IB. All FCPS high schools offer honors courses.

Some students would do better with the AP program and other students would do better with the IB program.

High school course sequences have to be planned out early, as many students in FCPS are taking their first high school courses in middle school (math and world languages).

Therefore, parents are trying to plan course sequences, alongside decisions surrounding high school curricular transfer requests (in some cases), in middle school.

(And this doesn't take into account some of the excellent Academy course offerings in FCPS.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't want my child specializing in a very limited area of study in high school till possibly senior year. I want them first to have a solid background. Why can't most of the schools be AP with some further specialized classes at the senior level that involve some additional writing. Kind of like doing a thesis to graduate from college.

I think this is the way AP is going with their new AP Capstone Program:

https://aphighered.collegeboard.org/exams/ap-capstone

This sounds like it covers what was previously missing in IB vs. AP. Do you think it takes up more time though than an IB curriculum to take two additional classes? Can kids fit these two classes into their schedule? I like that there's the option to getting a certificate for just completing these courses outside of other AP classes in addition to a certificate for completing a certain number of AP courses. How do people think the new AP Capstone Program compares to the IB program. What are the advantages and drawbacks to each?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This whole AP/IB debate is getting quite stale. Have your child take the most challenging courses they desire at the high school that is offered to them. If that is AP, fine. If that is IB, fine. If it is honors, fine. If it is (gasp) regular courses, fine. The endless need of people on this forum to justify why one is better than the other seems to be more of a pride issue than anything else. I took more AP courses than I can remember when I was in high school. Once you get to college, guess what? Nobody cares whether you took AP, IB, honors, homeschool, whatever. All they care is how you perform once in you're in college. And, if you go to decent college, no amount of AP or IB is going to fully prepare you - you're going to be challenged even further beyond those high school courses.

I think the issue is the IB costs more than AP for the county to implement, so if there is no need for it, why not put the money towards something else?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't want my child specializing in a very limited area of study in high school till possibly senior year. I want them first to have a solid background. Why can't most of the schools be AP with some further specialized classes at the senior level that involve some additional writing. Kind of like doing a thesis to graduate from college.

I think this is the way AP is going with their new AP Capstone Program:

https://aphighered.collegeboard.org/exams/ap-capstone

This sounds like it covers what was previously missing in IB vs. AP. Do you think it takes up more time though than an IB curriculum to take two additional classes? Can kids fit these two classes into their schedule? I like that there's the option to getting a certificate for just completing these courses outside of other AP classes in addition to a certificate for completing a certain number of AP courses. How do people think the new AP Capstone Program compares to the IB program. What are the advantages and drawbacks to each?

I have no experience with this program, but from what I have read on the College Board website, it seems like it would fit the need for the seminar work and the research work, plus it would help temper the quest for so many AP courses. As with anything, I guess, the devil is in the details.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This whole AP/IB debate is getting quite stale. Have your child take the most challenging courses they desire at the high school that is offered to them. If that is AP, fine. If that is IB, fine. If it is honors, fine. If it is (gasp) regular courses, fine. The endless need of people on this forum to justify why one is better than the other seems to be more of a pride issue than anything else. I took more AP courses than I can remember when I was in high school. Once you get to college, guess what? Nobody cares whether you took AP, IB, honors, homeschool, whatever. All they care is how you perform once in you're in college. And, if you go to decent college, no amount of AP or IB is going to fully prepare you - you're going to be challenged even further beyond those high school courses.

I think the issue is the IB costs more than AP for the county to implement, so if there is no need for it, why not put the money towards something else?

That's essentially what FCPS is doing by only having AP at the newer schools. But they are too proud to admit that IB has not achieved the intended goal of retaining and attracting students to most of the schools where it was introduced, with one or two possible exceptions. Meanwhile they keep IB at multiple schools where less than 10% of the seniors bother to get IB diplomas.

[Anonymous]

I'm interested in hearing from parents of IB students whether they would have been happy with the AP capstone program as opposed to IB. Since it's new, maybe the board just needs to hear whether the two programs are comparable.

[Anonymous]

I think the issue is the IB costs more than AP for the county to implement, so if there is no need for it, why not put the money towards something else?

First, it costs lots more. Poor return on money spent.