If AP is more popular/better/more flexible, why does FCPS put IB in all the lower-ranked schools?

[Anonymous]

I'm switching my child from our home high school to a high school that offers the IB program because I find IB to be the superior program and my kid can commit to doing the full diploma.
My reasons:
1. It is a recognized qualification for university, both in the US and internationally.
2. The full diploma program is more rigorous than anything I have seen from high schools which offer the AP program.
3. The level and amount of writing required is much higher, which I think is good preparation for university.
4. I prefer the IB exam format to the AP format.

The one major drawback is the lack of flexibility.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The fact of the matter is...someone bundled up a bunch of bullshit, put it into a program, called it IB, and sold it to the US. It's a money making scheme just like anything else. Having taught for years in a Middle School with an MYP program, I can tell you it's all crap up to a certain point. Everything we were ever trained on was stuff we were already doing. They just gave it a name and said "hey! That's MYP!" Uh, well, yes...I was doing that for free but now you're paying to label it MYP.

IB is only significant when it comes to high school and they provide higher level classes much like AP. Theoretically you'd get a bunch of kids going for this AMAAAAAZING full IB diploma. But when I left my last school two years ago, the highest number I had ever heard up to that point in regards to how many students graduate with a full IB diploma was 54. No one goes for the full diploma. People in IB schools take IB classes b/c they consider them equivalent to AP. That may very well be but...

If IB classes (outside of the full IB diploma) are identical to AP, then why the hell are we spending money on the IB program when we could just stick with AP?

Excellent points. It's not a coincidence that all the newer high schools in Fairfax and Loudoun are AP schools. It was kind of a novelty back in the 90s but it turned out not to be of interest to that many families.

[Anonymous]

In regards to history courses:
You can sit and take the AP exam without taking the AP class and earn a 5. You can't sit for an IB exam without taking the class. In history, especially American history, the AP exam is very dependent on memorizing facts. The exam consists of a DBQ (document based question where kids write an essay based on a set of questions), a free response essay and multiple choice.

The IB exam for history is looking students to be well versed in the content, but also be able to analyze, evaluate, and make judgements on their own. Typically, if a kid is on a higher level track in IB for history, they take a course entitled "History of the Americas" junior year, and "Topics" senior year (which is more modern world history outside of the Americas). Students study subjects in depth (much like college) versus doing a survey style course where they are trying to learn everything (which is more AP style). In the Americas course for example, they may just study the American Civil War, the Great Depression in the U.S. and Canada, and the Cold War in the Americas (looking at the U.S., but also Cuba, and Guatemala as case studies). In Topics, they could focus on the Interwar years (between WWI and II), Authoritarian and Single Party States and study several regimes in depth (for example they may spend 8 weeks learning only about Stalin or Hitler or Mao or so on....). Students take an exam after taking both courses and their overall exam score is dependent on many things: an Internal Assessment (a research paper they turn in), a "paper 1" which is similar to an AP DBQ essay, a "paper 2" they write two essays in 90 minutes on World History topics, and a "paper 3" where they write three essays on Americas topics. Examples of prompts: http://www.ibo.org/contentassets/7f6c7681e0b34fc8b0541c1229c7521d/gp3_historyhlsl2.pdf
and here are examples of AP prompts: http://media.collegeboard.com/digitalServices/pdf/ap/ap14_frq_US_History.pdf
IB does not have a multiple choice section on the exam and the kids take it over several days.

AP is not for everyone. IB is not for everyone. I was trained in both (AP Euro and World and IB) and see value in both, but IMHO, I believe that IB's depth and method are better for students who plan on studying in depth anything in the social sciences or humanities. It will definitely prepare any student analytical reading and writing skills. On the other hand, if your kid is going to be an engineer and doesn't particularly like history, but regular history is too easy for them and they are just trying to get the credit for college, AP may be a better option.

Coincidentally, AP is changing the way they do things and it seems to me they are changing to be more like IB.

[Anonymous]

Having looked at the pros and cons of both, I am avoiding IB schools for my kids -- specifically b/c they are IB. I'm fine with South Lakes/Edison types of schools for my kids. I'm not fine with the IB. Unfortunately, there are some houses we've looked at in IB zones. While we might be very interested in buying those houses, the IB is a deal-breaker.

I don't want the hassle of sending my kids out of zone after they have just moved and had to build friendships. I also don't want to have to drive them to school. For me, IB is sinking these house sales. If FCPS would switch them to AP, or offer it in addition to IB, then we could talk about putting in a contract.

[Anonymous]

Just to correct an error above on what a DBQ is. A DBQ presents students with a series of primary sources related to an issue. They read and analyze those sources and answer an essay question citing the documents to support their analysis. It is the opposite of memorizing facts; students need to be able to think on their feet and draw conclusions from materials they generally have not seen before.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Isn't it a disadvantage when applying to colleges that an IB student doesn't have test scores to show. The AP kids would have several AP test scores to report with their college applications.

I think I'm convince to avoid those districts.

Colleges don't ask to see AP scores during the application process, only SAT/ACT scores and SAT subject test scores. AP scores are sent after acceptance and the college lets the student know how much credit has been earned and which courses the student can then register for.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
The fact of the matter is...someone bundled up a bunch of bullshit, put it into a program, called it IB, and sold it to the US. It's a money making scheme just like anything else. Having taught for years in a Middle School with an MYP program, I can tell you it's all crap up to a certain point. Everything we were ever trained on was stuff we were already doing. They just gave it a name and said "hey! That's MYP!" Uh, well, yes...I was doing that for free but now you're paying to label it MYP.

IB is only significant when it comes to high school and they provide higher level classes much like AP. Theoretically you'd get a bunch of kids going for this AMAAAAAZING full IB diploma. But when I left my last school two years ago, the highest number I had ever heard up to that point in regards to how many students graduate with a full IB diploma was 54. No one goes for the full diploma. People in IB schools take IB classes b/c they consider them equivalent to AP. That may very well be but...

If IB classes (outside of the full IB diploma) are identical to AP, then why the hell are we spending money on the IB program when we could just stick with AP?

+1

--Another IB teacher

[Anonymous]

Colleges don't ask to see AP scores during the application process, only SAT/ACT scores and SAT subject test scores. AP scores are sent after acceptance and the college lets the student know how much credit has been earned and which courses the student can then register for.

Yes. But, the transcript does list the classes. It is my understanding that the higher level IB classes require more than one year to count. I'm not 100%on this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Having looked at the pros and cons of both, I am avoiding IB schools for my kids -- specifically b/c they are IB. I'm fine with South Lakes/Edison types of schools for my kids. I'm not fine with the IB. Unfortunately, there are some houses we've looked at in IB zones. While we might be very interested in buying those houses, the IB is a deal-breaker.

I don't want the hassle of sending my kids out of zone after they have just moved and had to build friendships. I also don't want to have to drive them to school. For me, IB is sinking these house sales. If FCPS would switch them to AP, or offer it in addition to IB, then we could talk about putting in a contract.

Smart of you to be thinking of this now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Coincidentally, AP is changing the way they do things and it seems to me they are changing to be more like IB.

Great point. So you can combine the best of AP in combination with the research/capstone fundamentals at an AP school. I know Oakton is doing this now and heard reference to it for some time in the future at Lake Braddock SS. (Not sure about other FCPS AP schools.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Having looked at the pros and cons of both, I am avoiding IB schools for my kids -- specifically b/c they are IB. I'm fine with South Lakes/Edison types of schools for my kids. I'm not fine with the IB. Unfortunately, there are some houses we've looked at in IB zones. While we might be very interested in buying those houses, the IB is a deal-breaker.

I don't want the hassle of sending my kids out of zone after they have just moved and had to build friendships. I also don't want to have to drive them to school. For me, IB is sinking these house sales. If FCPS would switch them to AP, or offer it in addition to IB, then we could talk about putting in a contract.

Smart of you to be thinking of this now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm switching my child from our home high school to a high school that offers the IB program because I find IB to be the superior program and my kid can commit to doing the full diploma.
My reasons:
1. It is a recognized qualification for university, both in the US and internationally.
2. The full diploma program is more rigorous than anything I have seen from high schools which offer the AP program.
3. The level and amount of writing required is much higher, which I think is good preparation for university.
4. I prefer the IB exam format to the AP format.

The one major drawback is the lack of flexibility.

We are considering doing the same thing and moving our child from an AP school to an IB school when she starts HS. Your reasons sum up our own reasons well.

Friends have a son who did the IB diploma recently in FCPS, and he told them that in his first freshman history class at college, the professor asked, "Who here has written a research paper of at least 3,000 words?" This kid was the only student who raised his hand. (The IB diploma requires a 4,000-word research paper.) So far the student reports that he feels well prepared for the research and writing demands of college, and friends around him seem to struggle with the idea of writing anything in depth or at length, and the kid credits his confidence to IB. I know that's just one anecdotal example but it does make an impression on me.

We are still looking at AP as well. Unfortunately, while IB schools offer detailed, presentations dedicated to explaining IB for those making the choice between IB and AP, the AP schools (at least the ones around us) don't seem to bother to explain or promote AP much, from the information we've been given.

It's also interesting to see the posts on here about how AP is more "popular" than IB and the implication that the more popular program should somehow "win" and the less popular should be dumped. I think the issue is that parents and students, when looking at both programs, find the more prescriptive IB curriculum and organization are harder to understand at first than AP, which is a simple "a la carte" system. A school administrator at an HS curriculum night this week referred to AP courses as being in "silos" whereas IB had students make connections across all the courses. And this was an administrator at an AP school, promoting AP. The comparison and presentation didn't exactly win me over for AP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Having looked at the pros and cons of both, I am avoiding IB schools for my kids -- specifically b/c they are IB. I'm fine with South Lakes/Edison types of schools for my kids. I'm not fine with the IB. Unfortunately, there are some houses we've looked at in IB zones. While we might be very interested in buying those houses, the IB is a deal-breaker.

I don't want the hassle of sending my kids out of zone after they have just moved and had to build friendships. I also don't want to have to drive them to school. For me, IB is sinking these house sales. If FCPS would switch them to AP, or offer it in addition to IB, then we could talk about putting in a contract.

+1

[Anonymous]

AP courses are about memorizing information and regurgitating it on a test.

IB courses are about using and synthesizing the information learned.

AP gets more college credit, and the tests are much easier...but the skills learned in IB are what it takes to be successful in college and beyond.

[Anonymous]

AP courses are developed by the College Board, with input primarily from American university professors focused on college-level content. IB is developed in Geneva. So if you want your child to attend university in France or Italy, IB may be a better choice. Most parents around here aspire for their kids to attend college in this country,where the universities are widely considered among the best in the world.

As this thread attests, some associated with IB in FCPS do work hard to market the program. That's not surprising, when you consider that it's an under-subscribed program that the School Board has placed in lower performing schools. You have to work extra hard to convince people they really want that for their kids. Moreover, each IB school has to have a dedicated IB coordinator, so FCPS pays extra for some of the IB cheerleaders. The AP schools and curriculum are better known and sell themselves.