Why does DCPS ignore advanced learners in ES?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Within the class.

^^ Yeah, so the teacher spends her/his time tending to those with behavioral issues and cannot focus on the majority, and there's no special assistant to tend to the behavior problems and otherwise keep order. No thanks.

This is the attitude that makes me nuts. (Not to pick on you, specifically, but I see it a lot on these boards, and your post is a perfect example.) Without any idea whether or not a specific teacher/school can effectively manage differentiation and discipline, you've decided, as a given, that the one and only effective way to handle advanced learners is by segregating them from other students.

If you see that an actual teacher/school is failing to meet the needs of the actual advanced learners attending it, that's one thing. But to judge a school as failing because its approach differs from your own -- without even looking at what results they achieve -- doesn't make sense. It's based on ideology rather than evidence.

Watkins parent here. Differentiation for my advanced reader meant that DC could pick up a book at any time in class and read instead of being bored to tears by the material that was being taught and retaught in between behavior outbursts in class. One week, DC got through two Harry Potter books without using lunch, recess, specials or any time at home. That's when I knew that differentiation was NOT doing anything for my student.

That's a legit criticism -- obviously the way that teacher implemented differentiation wasn't working for your child. That doesn't mean differentiation in principle is garbage, nor does it mean pull-outs are the only acceptable solution.

Actually, I would say that is not differentiation at all. That teacher is ignoring your child and/or your child is not doing the classwork and getting away with it. Time for a parent/teacher conference.

Stop blaming the teacher. Blame the system. The Watkins parent here mentioned that the teacher was dealing with behavior outbursts. So it is not that they are not differentiating as much as they are not being supported with behavior issues. And there is crap like FUNDATIONS- that we teachers are MANDATED to teach. Its a phonics program- and as a 2nd Grade teacher (with an entire class reading about grade level) I am ordered to teach the phonic lesson 30 minutes a day. Even though none of my kiddos need it.
Teachers are tired of this junk too. Instead of fighting them as not being good at their jobs- join forces with them in demanding more from the school admin.

[Anonymous]

^ You have my support. Differentiation with disparate students and behavioral issues puts the teacher behind the 8 BALL. Teachers need full time assistants to accomplish this, and I doubt they have them. Until teachers have adequate support, differentiation is probably just a pipe dream.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^ You have my support. Differentiation with disparate students and behavioral issues puts the teacher behind the 8 BALL. Teachers need full time assistants to accomplish this, and I doubt they have them. Until teachers have adequate support, differentiation is probably just a pipe dream.

This is what absolutely saves our WOTP ES - there are two teachers in every class, a lead teacher and an assistant, and when a child is acting out and needs to be pulled out that does not derail the entire class

I also just wanted to add that for kids who are academically advanced at least back in the day we were bored until at least 4th grade in private school as well

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Stop blaming the teacher. Blame the system. The Watkins parent here mentioned that the teacher was dealing with behavior outbursts. So it is not that they are not differentiating as much as they are not being supported with behavior issues. And there is crap like FUNDATIONS- that we teachers are MANDATED to teach. Its a phonics program- and as a 2nd Grade teacher (with an entire class reading about grade level) I am ordered to teach the phonic lesson 30 minutes a day. Even though none of my kiddos need it.
Teachers are tired of this junk too. Instead of fighting them as not being good at their jobs- join forces with them in demanding more from the school admin.

I had never heard of Fundations before so I just watched it on YouTube. How horrible! My 18 month old was able to do what this teaches (letter names, phonics for each sound, words that represent each letter, dissecting simple words, etc) by using fun songs and movement (no direct teaching like in the videos). I hope my child will not have to sit through this in his PS3 class. Actually, I think the video was showing kindergarteners doing the program. I'm afraid I'm in for a rude awakening when my child goes to public school in the Fall. : (

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ You have my support. Differentiation with disparate students and behavioral issues puts the teacher behind the 8 BALL. Teachers need full time assistants to accomplish this, and I doubt they have them. Until teachers have adequate support, differentiation is probably just a pipe dream.

This is what absolutely saves our WOTP ES - there are two teachers in every class, a lead teacher and an assistant, and when a child is acting out and needs to be pulled out that does not derail the entire class

I also just wanted to add that for kids who are academically advanced at least back in the day we were bored until at least 4th grade in private school as well

Then what the hell ain't happening here EotP? We not paying 'nuf taxes?

[Anonymous]

Ok, let's briefly discuss what "gifted" is, using psychological terms. It's a child whose needs are so far beyond the norm that placing them among the average is like placing an average child among the mentally handicapped. It has NOTHING to do with achievement, and EVERYTHING to do with intelligence.

So, having a child that reads 2, 3, or 5 grades above level does not mean that differentiation cannot work. If your 1st grade child is doing ALL middle school level material, then you're reaching a point where differentiation is beginning to fail. It still doesn't mean that the child is gifted, believe it or not (though it would be highly likely).

Gifted kids are typically very asynchronous in their development, and can't always be identified based on accomplishments. Let me give an example of a 1st grader that I know, who is clearly gifted, and whose parents are struggling to find options:

Recites poetry (famous poets) after a single reading, and analyzes its meter, rhythm, and imagery
Otherwise reads at a fifth-grade level (tests as "still developing")
Solves multi-step algebra problems in his head, and can explain a number of fundamental concepts from abstract algebra (college level!) but has not done any prealgebra (beyond self-taught arithmetic)
Reads "Conceptual Physics" for fun, and can explain the concepts with surprising accuracy
Struggles with Social Studies at his own level

Why did he learn what he did? Because he was bored at school, and his teacher allowed him to bring in whatever reading material he wanted. That worked for a while, but now both mom and teacher are at their wits' ends. Other than a gift for music, all of this appeared only in the last year.

For this kid, differentiation is impossible. Pull-out doesn't work very well, either. His mom will either have to quit work and home school him, or let him become an unruly terror at school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ok, let's briefly discuss what "gifted" is, using psychological terms. It's a child whose needs are so far beyond the norm that placing them among the average is like placing an average child among the mentally handicapped. It has NOTHING to do with achievement, and EVERYTHING to do with intelligence.

So, having a child that reads 2, 3, or 5 grades above level does not mean that differentiation cannot work. If your 1st grade child is doing ALL middle school level material, then you're reaching a point where differentiation is beginning to fail. It still doesn't mean that the child is gifted, believe it or not (though it would be highly likely).

Gifted kids are typically very asynchronous in their development, and can't always be identified based on accomplishments. Let me give an example of a 1st grader that I know, who is clearly gifted, and whose parents are struggling to find options:

Recites poetry (famous poets) after a single reading, and analyzes its meter, rhythm, and imagery
Otherwise reads at a fifth-grade level (tests as "still developing")
Solves multi-step algebra problems in his head, and can explain a number of fundamental concepts from abstract algebra (college level!) but has not done any prealgebra (beyond self-taught arithmetic)
Reads "Conceptual Physics" for fun, and can explain the concepts with surprising accuracy
Struggles with Social Studies at his own level

Why did he learn what he did? Because he was bored at school, and his teacher allowed him to bring in whatever reading material he wanted. That worked for a while, but now both mom and teacher are at their wits' ends. Other than a gift for music, all of this appeared only in the last year.

For this kid, differentiation is impossible. Pull-out doesn't work very well, either. His mom will either have to quit work and home school him, or let him become an unruly terror at school.

Sorry, forgot to add: if your kid doesn't sound like this, then stop complaining. You have options.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ You have my support. Differentiation with disparate students and behavioral issues puts the teacher behind the 8 BALL. Teachers need full time assistants to accomplish this, and I doubt they have them. Until teachers have adequate support, differentiation is probably just a pipe dream.

This is what absolutely saves our WOTP ES - there are two teachers in every class, a lead teacher and an assistant, and when a child is acting out and needs to be pulled out that does not derail the entire class

I also just wanted to add that for kids who are academically advanced at least back in the day we were bored until at least 4th grade in private school as well

Does your PTA pay for all the extra aides? Is that through 5th grade? Which school? Thanks!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ You have my support. Differentiation with disparate students and behavioral issues puts the teacher behind the 8 BALL. Teachers need full time assistants to accomplish this, and I doubt they have them. Until teachers have adequate support, differentiation is probably just a pipe dream.

This is what absolutely saves our WOTP ES - there are two teachers in every class, a lead teacher and an assistant, and when a child is acting out and needs to be pulled out that does not derail the entire class

I also just wanted to add that for kids who are academically advanced at least back in the day we were bored until at least 4th grade in private school as well

You don't have two "teachers" in your school you have two humans. One is a board-certified teacher with credentials and the proper college degree. The other is a paraprofessional helper.

I've decided to correct this frequent misstatement every time I see it asserted by WOTP parents (usually Janney and Mann). No dcps elementary allows two full-time teachers assigned to one class of ~25 kids. Constant misinformation about how many "teachers" you have breeds resentment, confusion and justified calls for accountability.

Your well-oiled PTA funded a paraprofessional aide to assist the trained, credentialed teacher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ You have my support. Differentiation with disparate students and behavioral issues puts the teacher behind the 8 BALL. Teachers need full time assistants to accomplish this, and I doubt they have them. Until teachers have adequate support, differentiation is probably just a pipe dream.

This is what absolutely saves our WOTP ES - there are two teachers in every class, a lead teacher and an assistant, and when a child is acting out and needs to be pulled out that does not derail the entire class

I also just wanted to add that for kids who are academically advanced at least back in the day we were bored until at least 4th grade in private school as well

You don't have two "teachers" in your school you have two humans. One is a board-certified teacher with credentials and the proper college degree. The other is a paraprofessional helper.

I've decided to correct this frequent misstatement every time I see it asserted by WOTP parents (usually Janney and Mann). No dcps elementary allows two full-time teachers assigned to one class of ~25 kids. Constant misinformation about how many "teachers" you have breeds resentment, confusion and justified calls for accountability.

Your well-oiled PTA funded a paraprofessional aide to assist the trained, credentialed teacher.

So for the cost of a full-time paraprofessional, differentiation can work? But DCPS won't pay this small amount which is peanuts to what they're already spending? Wouldn't that be small money well spent?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ You have my support. Differentiation with disparate students and behavioral issues puts the teacher behind the 8 BALL. Teachers need full time assistants to accomplish this, and I doubt they have them. Until teachers have adequate support, differentiation is probably just a pipe dream.

This is what absolutely saves our WOTP ES - there are two teachers in every class, a lead teacher and an assistant, and when a child is acting out and needs to be pulled out that does not derail the entire class

I also just wanted to add that for kids who are academically advanced at least back in the day we were bored until at least 4th grade in private school as well

You don't have two "teachers" in your school you have two humans. One is a board-certified teacher with credentials and the proper college degree. The other is a paraprofessional helper.

I've decided to correct this frequent misstatement every time I see it asserted by WOTP parents (usually Janney and Mann). No dcps elementary allows two full-time teachers assigned to one class of ~25 kids. Constant misinformation about how many "teachers" you have breeds resentment, confusion and justified calls for accountability.

Your well-oiled PTA funded a paraprofessional aide to assist the trained, credentialed teacher.

So for the cost of a full-time paraprofessional, differentiation can work? But DCPS won't pay this small amount which is peanuts to what they're already spending? Wouldn't that be small money well spent?

Again with the generalizations about "DCPS" -- this is a school-by-school issue. If your kid's school isn't spending the money on paraprofessionals, you need to take that up with the principal/PTA/LSAT. (All my daughter's classrooms have had paraprofessionals, not because the PTA made a stink about it, but because that's how her principal manages resources.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ You have my support. Differentiation with disparate students and behavioral issues puts the teacher behind the 8 BALL. Teachers need full time assistants to accomplish this, and I doubt they have them. Until teachers have adequate support, differentiation is probably just a pipe dream.

This is what absolutely saves our WOTP ES - there are two teachers in every class, a lead teacher and an assistant, and when a child is acting out and needs to be pulled out that does not derail the entire class

I also just wanted to add that for kids who are academically advanced at least back in the day we were bored until at least 4th grade in private school as well

Then what the hell ain't happening here EotP? We not paying 'nuf taxes?

DCPS budgets one aid per class for preK and K and a proportionate number of ESL and SpEd aids. Our school raises enough to make sure there is one per grade after that but with 4-5 classes per grade, it is not enough. DCPS must start budgeting for more classroom aids at all grades. PP's school is funding those positions through parent donations (I'm guessing PP is as Mann).

[Anonymous]

In most states, teacher's aides are volunteer parents. They do just as well as a professional aide.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Within the class.

^^ Yeah, so the teacher spends her/his time tending to those with behavioral issues and cannot focus on the majority, and there's no special assistant to tend to the behavior problems and otherwise keep order. No thanks.

This is the attitude that makes me nuts. (Not to pick on you, specifically, but I see it a lot on these boards, and your post is a perfect example.) Without any idea whether or not a specific teacher/school can effectively manage differentiation and discipline, you've decided, as a given, that the one and only effective way to handle advanced learners is by segregating them from other students.

If you see that an actual teacher/school is failing to meet the needs of the actual advanced learners attending it, that's one thing. But to judge a school as failing because its approach differs from your own -- without even looking at what results they achieve -- doesn't make sense. It's based on ideology rather than evidence.

Watkins parent here. Differentiation for my advanced reader meant that DC could pick up a book at any time in class and read instead of being bored to tears by the material that was being taught and retaught in between behavior outbursts in class. One week, DC got through two Harry Potter books without using lunch, recess, specials or any time at home. That's when I knew that differentiation was NOT doing anything for my student.

That's a legit criticism -- obviously the way that teacher implemented differentiation wasn't working for your child. That doesn't mean differentiation in principle is garbage, nor does it mean pull-outs are the only acceptable solution.

Actually, I would say that is not differentiation at all. That teacher is ignoring your child and/or your child is not doing the classwork and getting away with it. Time for a parent/teacher conference.

Stop blaming the teacher. Blame the system. The Watkins parent here mentioned that the teacher was dealing with behavior outbursts. So it is not that they are not differentiating as much as they are not being supported with behavior issues. And there is crap like FUNDATIONS- that we teachers are MANDATED to teach. Its a phonics program- and as a 2nd Grade teacher (with an entire class reading about grade level) I am ordered to teach the phonic lesson 30 minutes a day. Even though none of my kiddos need it.
Teachers are tired of this junk too. Instead of fighting them as not being good at their jobs- join forces with them in demanding more from the school admin.

I appreciate your frustration, and I'm not fighting teachers. I agree with you. That was my point -- the parent and the teacher need to get together and talk about what to do (a parent teacher conference), because a child should not be reading Harry Potter all day at school not matter what kind of behavior is going on. It may not be the teacher's or the child's fault (btw it is my child's fault when he secretly reads under his desk and misses the math lesson), but if what this parent claims is actually happening (and she may find from the teacher it isn't), then the child is being ignored for whatever reason, and they need to talk to each other about it so they can join forces as you suggest (without blaming anyone; blaming the system doesn't help either). I fully appreciate that teaching and parenting are very hard jobs, as is the principal's job of figuring out the budget, and the PTA's job of finding additional resources.

My other point was simply that a child reading Harry Potter alone all day is not differentiated instruction. I probably should have stopped there.