All Kids Are Gifted, a Sports Metaphor

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Typically they do end up in the top percent not just by IQ but in grades and elsewhere as well. My experience has been that the kids that were in G&T were also valedictorian, et cetera - otherwise generally top in their classes and most got scholarships for college. One for example was also in the top 0.5% nationally on the PSAT and ended up getting a full scholarship to an Ivy.

The Ivies do not give merit scholarships, they only give need-based financial aid. So, yes, it is entirely possible to get tuition at an Ivy paid for if the family demonstrates enough need, but not exclusively for high PSAT scores. There are a number of universities that are not part of the Ivy League that give full ride merit scholarships (tuition +room and board + other expenses) based solely on PSAT scores that equate to Finalist status, most notably University of Alabama and University of Oklahoma.
So, while being a fantastic student will help you to get into an Ivy, it will not get you a scholarship to an Ivy. Your family must be able to show low enough income and equity to be awarded need-based aid to and Ivy.

Didn't say it came from the Ivy. This was the main one: National Merit Scholarship -> http://www.nationalmerit.org/

The National Merit Scholarship Corporation does not itself give out full scholarships. Some businesses do give them to children of family members, but that's just a lucky shot that you happen to have a parent that works for one of those companies. I was a National Merit Scholar myself and I have been through the process with my kids, so I am very familiar with the program. Many corporations offer scholarships of under $5000/year renewable for four years; the numbers that offer full ride scholarships are much lower. A number of large state universities offer full ride scholarships as noted above in hopes of increasing the average scores of their entering freshman class. Getting Finalist scores on the PSAT is great, but it does not necessarily mean a full scholarship to a top university.

I know many nation merit scholars and they all went to school for free. Yes, it may come from many sources, and yes the Ivy's know what these sources are and yes they direct their applicants to these sources. It's semantics at this point... But people go to Ivy's on full scholarships they are just not managed by the ivy. But it is all smoke an mirrors, so Ivy's can say they don't give scholarships.

Anyone can say anything. Unless you are talking about many years ago, Ivy League schools only give financial aid to those who fill out the forms and show need. There is aid available to families with incomes up to about $160,000, with the amount of aid decreasing as family income and asset amounts go up. There are really not as many outside sources of full ride scholarships out there as parents sometimes hear. The best bet is to look at schools the student is overqualified for to have a better likelihood of getting merit scholarships. That is where the money is.

[Anonymous]

Forgot to say, one of the best outside sources is the US government in the form of ROTC scholarships. One can earn a full scholarship through service in ROTC in college and as a military officer after college. A candidate needs to have great test scores and also a great GPA, high class ranking, participation in sports and leadership building activities andd be physically fit to qualify.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Typically they do end up in the top percent not just by IQ but in grades and elsewhere as well. My experience has been that the kids that were in G&T were also valedictorian, et cetera - otherwise generally top in their classes and most got scholarships for college. One for example was also in the top 0.5% nationally on the PSAT and ended up getting a full scholarship to an Ivy.

The Ivies do not give merit scholarships, they only give need-based financial aid. So, yes, it is entirely possible to get tuition at an Ivy paid for if the family demonstrates enough need, but not exclusively for high PSAT scores. There are a number of universities that are not part of the Ivy League that give full ride merit scholarships (tuition +room and board + other expenses) based solely on PSAT scores that equate to Finalist status, most notably University of Alabama and University of Oklahoma.
So, while being a fantastic student will help you to get into an Ivy, it will not get you a scholarship to an Ivy. Your family must be able to show low enough income and equity to be awarded need-based aid to and Ivy.

Didn't say it came from the Ivy. This was the main one: National Merit Scholarship -> http://www.nationalmerit.org/

The National Merit Scholarship Corporation does not itself give out full scholarships. Some businesses do give them to children of family members, but that's just a lucky shot that you happen to have a parent that works for one of those companies. I was a National Merit Scholar myself and I have been through the process with my kids, so I am very familiar with the program. Many corporations offer scholarships of under $5000/year renewable for four years; the numbers that offer full ride scholarships are much lower. A number of large state universities offer full ride scholarships as noted above in hopes of increasing the average scores of their entering freshman class. Getting Finalist scores on the PSAT is great, but it does not necessarily mean a full scholarship to a top university.

I know many nation merit scholars and they all went to school for free. Yes, it may come from many sources, and yes the Ivy's know what these sources are and yes they direct their applicants to these sources. It's semantics at this point... But people go to Ivy's on full scholarships they are just not managed by the ivy. But it is all smoke an mirrors, so Ivy's can say they don't give scholarships.

Anyone can say anything. Unless you are talking about many years ago, Ivy League schools only give financial aid to those who fill out the forms and show need. There is aid available to families with incomes up to about $160,000, with the amount of aid decreasing as family income and asset amounts go up. There are really not as many outside sources of full ride scholarships out there as parents sometimes hear. The best bet is to look at schools the student is overqualified for to have a better likelihood of getting merit scholarships. That is where the money is.

They ate called endowment scholarships... Read up. It is current information.

[Anonymous]

Ate = are

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A student at the 4th percentile doesn't get special education on the basis of their IQ. Some students at that level have disabilities, of course, just like some students with IQs at the 96th %ile, have disabilities, but the 4th %ile by itself does not qualify a child for anything.

You're confusing the cause and effect. Lots of kids have disabilities. But severe and profound disabilities are likely to be what puts a kid in the 4th percentile.

No, an individual with profound intellectual disabilities has an IQ under 20, putting them in the .00005th %ile,

an individual with severe intellectual disabilities has an IQ between 20 and 35, putting then in the .0007th %ile.

An IQ at the 4th %ile puts someone around a 73 or 74, and does not qualify them as having an intellectual disability. Some people with IQ's in this range also have disabilities, probably a higher percentage of people with IQs in that range have disabilities, because there are some disabilities, such as language disabilities, that can depress test scores. But there are also people with IQ's in that range who do not qualify for any special education services.

There's a noticeable difference and a big performance gap between someone with 73% IQ vs someone with 100 IQ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Typically they do end up in the top percent not just by IQ but in grades and elsewhere as well. My experience has been that the kids that were in G&T were also valedictorian, et cetera - otherwise generally top in their classes and most got scholarships for college. One for example was also in the top 0.5% nationally on the PSAT and ended up getting a full scholarship to an Ivy.

The Ivies do not give merit scholarships, they only give need-based financial aid. So, yes, it is entirely possible to get tuition at an Ivy paid for if the family demonstrates enough need, but not exclusively for high PSAT scores. There are a number of universities that are not part of the Ivy League that give full ride merit scholarships (tuition +room and board + other expenses) based solely on PSAT scores that equate to Finalist status, most notably University of Alabama and University of Oklahoma.
So, while being a fantastic student will help you to get into an Ivy, it will not get you a scholarship to an Ivy. Your family must be able to show low enough income and equity to be awarded need-based aid to and Ivy.

Didn't say it came from the Ivy. This was the main one: National Merit Scholarship -> http://www.nationalmerit.org/

The National Merit Scholarship Corporation does not itself give out full scholarships. Some businesses do give them to children of family members, but that's just a lucky shot that you happen to have a parent that works for one of those companies. I was a National Merit Scholar myself and I have been through the process with my kids, so I am very familiar with the program. Many corporations offer scholarships of under $5000/year renewable for four years; the numbers that offer full ride scholarships are much lower. A number of large state universities offer full ride scholarships as noted above in hopes of increasing the average scores of their entering freshman class. Getting Finalist scores on the PSAT is great, but it does not necessarily mean a full scholarship to a top university.

I know many nation merit scholars and they all went to school for free. Yes, it may come from many sources, and yes the Ivy's know what these sources are and yes they direct their applicants to these sources. It's semantics at this point... But people go to Ivy's on full scholarships they are just not managed by the ivy. But it is all smoke an mirrors, so Ivy's can say they don't give scholarships.

Anyone can say anything. Unless you are talking about many years ago, Ivy League schools only give financial aid to those who fill out the forms and show need. There is aid available to families with incomes up to about $160,000, with the amount of aid decreasing as family income and asset amounts go up. There are really not as many outside sources of full ride scholarships out there as parents sometimes hear. The best bet is to look at schools the student is overqualified for to have a better likelihood of getting merit scholarships. That is where the money is.

They ate called endowment scholarships... Read up. It is current information.

+1 endowment scholarships definitely still do exist and are different from general scholarships - to include graduates of certain schools, to include students who want to pursue certain majors, to include students who are descendants of certain notable people, and so on. Some of these are also under the banner of some of the Ivies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Typically they do end up in the top percent not just by IQ but in grades and elsewhere as well. My experience has been that the kids that were in G&T were also valedictorian, et cetera - otherwise generally top in their classes and most got scholarships for college. One for example was also in the top 0.5% nationally on the PSAT and ended up getting a full scholarship to an Ivy.

The Ivies do not give merit scholarships, they only give need-based financial aid. So, yes, it is entirely possible to get tuition at an Ivy paid for if the family demonstrates enough need, but not exclusively for high PSAT scores. There are a number of universities that are not part of the Ivy League that give full ride merit scholarships (tuition +room and board + other expenses) based solely on PSAT scores that equate to Finalist status, most notably University of Alabama and University of Oklahoma.
So, while being a fantastic student will help you to get into an Ivy, it will not get you a scholarship to an Ivy. Your family must be able to show low enough income and equity to be awarded need-based aid to and Ivy.

Didn't say it came from the Ivy. This was the main one: National Merit Scholarship -> http://www.nationalmerit.org/

The National Merit Scholarship Corporation does not itself give out full scholarships. Some businesses do give them to children of family members, but that's just a lucky shot that you happen to have a parent that works for one of those companies. I was a National Merit Scholar myself and I have been through the process with my kids, so I am very familiar with the program. Many corporations offer scholarships of under $5000/year renewable for four years; the numbers that offer full ride scholarships are much lower. A number of large state universities offer full ride scholarships as noted above in hopes of increasing the average scores of their entering freshman class. Getting Finalist scores on the PSAT is great, but it does not necessarily mean a full scholarship to a top university.

I know many nation merit scholars and they all went to school for free. Yes, it may come from many sources, and yes the Ivy's know what these sources are and yes they direct their applicants to these sources. It's semantics at this point... But people go to Ivy's on full scholarships they are just not managed by the ivy. But it is all smoke an mirrors, so Ivy's can say they don't give scholarships.

Anyone can say anything. Unless you are talking about many years ago, Ivy League schools only give financial aid to those who fill out the forms and show need. There is aid available to families with incomes up to about $160,000, with the amount of aid decreasing as family income and asset amounts go up. There are really not as many outside sources of full ride scholarships out there as parents sometimes hear. The best bet is to look at schools the student is overqualified for to have a better likelihood of getting merit scholarships. That is where the money is.

They ate called endowment scholarships... Read up. It is current information.

Endowment scholarships are need based at the Ivies. The school's endowment is what they use to fund their very generous financial aid programs, which are available to families whose incomes and investment fall below a certain number determined by the school. Financial aid at Ivy League schools is not based on PSAT scores as it is at some of the large public state universities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A student at the 4th percentile doesn't get special education on the basis of their IQ. Some students at that level have disabilities, of course, just like some students with IQs at the 96th %ile, have disabilities, but the 4th %ile by itself does not qualify a child for anything.

You're confusing the cause and effect. Lots of kids have disabilities. But severe and profound disabilities are likely to be what puts a kid in the 4th percentile.

No, an individual with profound intellectual disabilities has an IQ under 20, putting them in the .00005th %ile,

an individual with severe intellectual disabilities has an IQ between 20 and 35, putting then in the .0007th %ile.

An IQ at the 4th %ile puts someone around a 73 or 74, and does not qualify them as having an intellectual disability. Some people with IQ's in this range also have disabilities, probably a higher percentage of people with IQs in that range have disabilities, because there are some disabilities, such as language disabilities, that can depress test scores. But there are also people with IQ's in that range who do not qualify for any special education services.

There's a noticeable difference and a big performance gap between someone with 73% IQ vs someone with 100 IQ.

Absolutely no argument from me there, well other than the fact that IQ isn't a %. But the argument that I was responding to was that a kid with a 4th %ile IQ gets special services so so should a child with a 127 (96th %ile). That's simply not true. A 4th %ile IQ does not qualify a child for anything under IDEA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A student at the 4th percentile doesn't get special education on the basis of their IQ. Some students at that level have disabilities, of course, just like some students with IQs at the 96th %ile, have disabilities, but the 4th %ile by itself does not qualify a child for anything.

You're confusing the cause and effect. Lots of kids have disabilities. But severe and profound disabilities are likely to be what puts a kid in the 4th percentile.

No, an individual with profound intellectual disabilities has an IQ under 20, putting them in the .00005th %ile,

an individual with severe intellectual disabilities has an IQ between 20 and 35, putting then in the .0007th %ile.

An IQ at the 4th %ile puts someone around a 73 or 74, and does not qualify them as having an intellectual disability. Some people with IQ's in this range also have disabilities, probably a higher percentage of people with IQs in that range have disabilities, because there are some disabilities, such as language disabilities, that can depress test scores. But there are also people with IQ's in that range who do not qualify for any special education services.

There's a noticeable difference and a big performance gap between someone with 73% IQ vs someone with 100 IQ.

Absolutely no argument from me there, well other than the fact that IQ isn't a %. But the argument that I was responding to was that a kid with a 4th %ile IQ gets special services so so should a child with a 127 (96th %ile). That's simply not true. A 4th %ile IQ does not qualify a child for anything under IDEA.

Nobody here ever said anyone qualifies for anything under IDEA based solely on IQ and I'm not sure why you keep bringing that up. IDEA is not based on IQ, it's based on specific disability. An IQ of 73 is however starting to get toward the range where there's certainly potential they would have an IEP and will likely need intermittent academic supports. The 20 would be profoundly disabled and probably not able to attend to basic personal needs and would probably need life sustaining measures - and probably wouldn't even be in any regular public school, they would more likely be shipped to a specialty school for the disabled.

But back to the 73 - just as there are noticeable differences between a 73 and a 100, there's also a similar noticeable difference between a kid who's 100 IQ versus one who's 127 IQ - and that generally won't even qualify for G&T in many programs.

[Anonymous]

^ +100

And given we support the athletically gifted and support them pursuing their extreme longshot dreams of professional sports by putting lots of money into resources into coaches, fields, equipment, et cetera, why aren't we likewise interested in supporting the academically gifted?

It makes no sense.

[Anonymous]

And given we support the athletically gifted and support them pursuing their extreme longshot dreams of professional sports by putting lots of money into resources into coaches, fields, equipment, et cetera, why aren't we likewise interested in supporting the academically gifted?

Do you really think that is the purpose of the athletic program? Clue: It is not. Did you grow up in the US?

[Anonymous]

But back to the 73 - just as there are noticeable differences between a 73 and a 100, there's also a similar noticeable difference between a kid who's 100 IQ versus one who's 127 IQ - and that generally won't even qualify for G&T in many programs.

I'm sure the parent of the child with 73 would be happy to exchange with the parent of 127--and give up all that "extra help" that benefits him so much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

And given we support the athletically gifted and support them pursuing their extreme longshot dreams of professional sports by putting lots of money into resources into coaches, fields, equipment, et cetera, why aren't we likewise interested in supporting the academically gifted?

Do you really think that is the purpose of the athletic program? Clue: It is not. Did you grow up in the US?

Um, PP - perhaps you are confused. Organized sports programs at schools are totally different from P.E.

[Anonymous]

Um, PP - perhaps you are confused. Organized sports programs at schools are totally different from P.E.

Um, no, I know the difference. However, do you really think these programs exist for the elite athlete? You would be very wrong. Again, did you grow up in the US?

[Anonymous]

Or, maybe your kids go to the elite private schools which give scholarships to stellar athletes.