Someone please explain to me the difference between tracking and the AAP program/centers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The CogAT and NNAT aren't IQ tests.

AAP isn't full tracking from the top to the bottom of ability. Maybe it could be considered partial tracking. Just the top 15 percent or so are educated separately, so this system avoids some of the pitfalls of tracking. No one (individual, or socioeconomic group) is singled out as being in the lowest group. For all anyone knows, any child in GE could be at the 85th percentile. The lowest performers can benefit from the influence of the highest performers, and the highest performers can develop more confidence.

AAP/GT is a track and gened is a track that also serves sped ...aap can have sped students but they are not sped due to intellectual capabilities. I am older and there was tracking when I went to school beginning in middle school. Tracks were not as STATIC as aap. There were students from lower tracks that did specific subjects with other tracks.

I think some people want more different levels within gen ed.

This is what's known as AAP Level 1/2/3.
It seems that folks aren't happy with how its implemented.
So why change the entire system? Why not instead lobby to make AAPL123 more meaningful.

Thank you for raising this excellent point. All the DCUM discussions about AAP focus just on centers and Local Level IV. Very little is ever said about Local Level I, II, and III options within base schools -- that system is supposed to serve kids at different ranges of academic aptitude and should be thought of and talked about as part of any discussion of AAP, but AAP has been reduced in people's minds to "centers versus Everyone Else."

Unfortunately, though making Levels 1 to III more meaningful and challenging and interesting would be simply great, it would probably be seen by the folks posting here as "tracking," which somehow they think will hurt kids' feelings and destroy general ed. Not sure why they are so threatened by the idea.

From what I saw in our base school before we moved our kid to an AAP center (Local Level IV was not offered at our base school), the services offered in I-III were just once-a-week pull-outs and were totally disconnected from the rest of the curriculum the kids were doing. Maybe that's not the case everywhere now. It would be good to hear on this thread from some parents of kids getting Level I-III services: What have your experiences of this been?

What's truly needed is, well, tracking, where kids in upper elementary move to different classrooms for different subjects and are with peer groups who are working at their same level subject by subject--kids ready for tougher math take the tougher math class; kids with an aptitude for social studies get grouped together for a social studies class that's more challenging, etc. That was how the old "GT" used to work when I was a kid, and no one was scarred for life by it....But that is "tracking" and seems to horrify some parents here. Why? Because the kids in the less-advanced classes will feel bad? Seriously? won't they feel worse if they are in classes that are moving too fast for them? Oh, right, that isn't going to happen.

The way these parents seem to think, the kids who can do harder work or need more challenges are supposed to sit back and twiddle their thumbs in the same class with everyone else while the teacher teaches to the level of those who need the most help. But these parents would be the first to complain if their kids who needed more help were forced to sit there, frustrated and lost, while the teacher taught at the right pace for the more advanced kids.

This is exactly what happens with a kid who is above average but not AAP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The CogAT and NNAT aren't IQ tests.

AAP isn't full tracking from the top to the bottom of ability. Maybe it could be considered partial tracking. Just the top 15 percent or so are educated separately, so this system avoids some of the pitfalls of tracking. No one (individual, or socioeconomic group) is singled out as being in the lowest group. For all anyone knows, any child in GE could be at the 85th percentile. The lowest performers can benefit from the influence of the highest performers, and the highest performers can develop more confidence.

AAP/GT is a track and gened is a track that also serves sped ...aap can have sped students but they are not sped due to intellectual capabilities. I am older and there was tracking when I went to school beginning in middle school. Tracks were not as STATIC as aap. There were students from lower tracks that did specific subjects with other tracks.

I think some people want more different levels within gen ed.

This is what's known as AAP Level 1/2/3.
It seems that folks aren't happy with how its implemented.
So why change the entire system? Why not instead lobby to make AAPL123 more meaningful.

Thank you for raising this excellent point. All the DCUM discussions about AAP focus just on centers and Local Level IV. Very little is ever said about Local Level I, II, and III options within base schools -- that system is supposed to serve kids at different ranges of academic aptitude and should be thought of and talked about as part of any discussion of AAP, but AAP has been reduced in people's minds to "centers versus Everyone Else."

Unfortunately, though making Levels 1 to III more meaningful and challenging and interesting would be simply great, it would probably be seen by the folks posting here as "tracking," which somehow they think will hurt kids' feelings and destroy general ed. Not sure why they are so threatened by the idea.

From what I saw in our base school before we moved our kid to an AAP center (Local Level IV was not offered at our base school), the services offered in I-III were just once-a-week pull-outs and were totally disconnected from the rest of the curriculum the kids were doing. Maybe that's not the case everywhere now. It would be good to hear on this thread from some parents of kids getting Level I-III services: What have your experiences of this been?

What's truly needed is, well, tracking, where kids in upper elementary move to different classrooms for different subjects and are with peer groups who are working at their same level subject by subject--kids ready for tougher math take the tougher math class; kids with an aptitude for social studies get grouped together for a social studies class that's more challenging, etc. That was how the old "GT" used to work when I was a kid, and no one was scarred for life by it....But that is "tracking" and seems to horrify some parents here. Why? Because the kids in the less-advanced classes will feel bad? Seriously? won't they feel worse if they are in classes that are moving too fast for them? Oh, right, that isn't going to happen.

The way these parents seem to think, the kids who can do harder work or need more challenges are supposed to sit back and twiddle their thumbs in the same class with everyone else while the teacher teaches to the level of those who need the most help. But these parents would be the first to complain if their kids who needed more help were forced to sit there, frustrated and lost, while the teacher taught at the right pace for the more advanced kids.

This is exactly what happens with a kid who is above average but not AAP.

So then tracking (i.e. AAP Level1-3) can fix this, if implemented well?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

We've been told that the AAP kids learn differently and are in a different place than their peers so are we favoring them or simply meeting their needs as those have been identified?

We are doing the right thing for "gifted" kids. We are favoring the kids in the AAP program who are not gifted. Thanks to pushy parents this is a larger percentage than you might expect. They benefit to the detriment of equally bright kids in General Ed.

If the kids are equally bright why do their parents let them suffer a detrimental situation rather than pushing to get them into AAP too?

Right. Every parent has an equal opportunity to push, nag, bully and threaten the AAP admissions staff. Seems to work from everything I have read.

Because this was not the way the program was meant to work. I don't think it's healthy for the kids, the schools or the communities. Back when AAP was GT, my older son was in the program, but I would never have thought of pushing and nagging to get his very bright siblings into it, because I knew that they could get a great education at the local school. With the exception of very obviously gifted kids, this should still be the case, particularly with all the super intelligent families here. There is no need to cede a great school system to the crazies, many of whom need their children in a special program to feel important. Rather than slicing and dicing our communities to create ever more centers for supposedly smarter kids -- many of whom are not -- we should direct our attention to making the schools challenging for all kids. And keep kids in their neighborhood wherever possible. If people continue to adopt the attitude that if they need to get their kid into AAP at all costs because their local schools aren't good enough, we are going to ruin this school system. [/quote

The last paragraph above needs to be sent to Garza...heck this whole post does. She needs to see the divide, the opions of the students parents from the haves and have nots! She needs to get this program fixed! I absolutly agree that if it does not have some drastic changes this high potential school system wil be ruined!

there's not that much of a divide. A few disgruntled people such as yourself who keep making the same point over and over and over again. AAP is the feeder for TJ - they are the crown jewel in the FCPS system. People come from all over the country and abroad ( ) to get in.

This just makes me laugh. A "few disgruntled people"? You really are out of touch if you think it's just a few. More and more parents of GE kids are wising up to the blatant inequity going on with the current AAP program. Talk to any GE parent and see what their honest thoughts are about this system. Oh... and TJ as the "crown jewel"? That's a bit over the top. Not everyone aspires to go there.

[Anonymous]

The same issues seem to exist in Montgomery County although they have highly gifted centers, not centers for just regular gifted students like we do in FCPS. Parents there seem to have the same gripes. Check out posts below from two days ago on thread "Do you truly expect a school to meet the needs of every single student?"

http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/15/361593.page

"It's families like mine who are unhappy. We cannot afford private school. We are not affluent. And, I really wish that MCPS could do more to challenge my kid. I do supplement as much as I can at home, but it's been disappointing so far (in ES) that my kid's not really getting much out of the 30 hours a week he's spending in school."

""I don't even blame the teachers. The teachers just have to work within the limits of the system. Why is one teacher expected to manage five (5!!) different reading groups in a one hour period? That's ridiculous. It's why my kid's reading group barely ever meets. Not the teachers fault. But, frustrating anyway."

"Agree. The lack of classroom level grouping is a fundamental problem. The MCPS pitch that this is fine because they will differentiate in class is far easier said than done.""

So, all the same issues with a highly selective program (admitting only 2 or 3 percent of students) rather than a "bloated" one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why aren't all children getting an equal opportunity for advanced elementary education?
Has this been forgotten; "Equal opportunity education for all students"!!
It still isn't equal in 2014!

Some kids are stupider.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

We've been told that the AAP kids learn differently and are in a different place than their peers so are we favoring them or simply meeting their needs as those have been identified?

We are doing the right thing for "gifted" kids. We are favoring the kids in the AAP program who are not gifted. Thanks to pushy parents this is a larger percentage than you might expect. They benefit to the detriment of equally bright kids in General Ed.

If the kids are equally bright why do their parents let them suffer a detrimental situation rather than pushing to get them into AAP too?

Right. Every parent has an equal opportunity to push, nag, bully and threaten the AAP admissions staff. Seems to work from everything I have read.

Because this was not the way the program was meant to work. I don't think it's healthy for the kids, the schools or the communities. Back when AAP was GT, my older son was in the program, but I would never have thought of pushing and nagging to get his very bright siblings into it, because I knew that they could get a great education at the local school. With the exception of very obviously gifted kids, this should still be the case, particularly with all the super intelligent families here. There is no need to cede a great school system to the crazies, many of whom need their children in a special program to feel important. Rather than slicing and dicing our communities to create ever more centers for supposedly smarter kids -- many of whom are not -- we should direct our attention to making the schools challenging for all kids. And keep kids in their neighborhood wherever possible. If people continue to adopt the attitude that if they need to get their kid into AAP at all costs because their local schools aren't good enough, we are going to ruin this school system. [/quote

The last paragraph above needs to be sent to Garza...heck this whole post does. She needs to see the divide, the opions of the students parents from the haves and have nots! She needs to get this program fixed! I absolutly agree that if it does not have some drastic changes this high potential school system wil be ruined!

there's not that much of a divide. A few disgruntled people such as yourself who keep making the same point over and over and over again. AAP is the feeder for TJ - they are the crown jewel in the FCPS system. People come from all over the country and abroad ( ) to get in.

This just makes me laugh. A "few disgruntled people"? You really are out of touch if you think it's just a few. More and more parents of GE kids are wising up to the blatant inequity going on with the current AAP program. Talk to any GE parent and see what their honest thoughts are about this system. Oh... and TJ as the "crown jewel"? That's a bit over the top. Not everyone aspires to go there.

I couldn't hear you. Your voice was drowned out by all the people clamoring to get into AAP. What should I put in the package; should I ge a WISC, where do I get a WISC. Actually, they're pretty lenient these days - don't really see the "Inequity" since if you push hard enough (i.e, want it bad enough) you can probablyt get in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why aren't all children getting an equal opportunity for advanced elementary education?
Has this been forgotten; "Equal opportunity education for all students"!!
It still isn't equal in 2014!

Some kids are stupider.

Yes, but even the stupidest kids (your phrasing, not mine!) deserve and receive an equal opportunity for advanced elementary education. So FCPS is complying with its requirements! As has already been said on this thread, "equal opportunity" does not mean "equal, period."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why aren't all children getting an equal opportunity for advanced elementary education?
Has this been forgotten; "Equal opportunity education for all students"!!
It still isn't equal in 2014!

Some kids are stupider.

Yes, but even the stupidest kids (your phrasing, not mine!) deserve and receive an equal opportunity for advanced elementary education. So FCPS is complying with its requirements! As has already been said on this thread, "equal opportunity" does not mean "equal, period."

but how can they be "advanced" if they are "stupider" (not my word either)?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why aren't all children getting an equal opportunity for advanced elementary education?
Has this been forgotten; "Equal opportunity education for all students"!!
It still isn't equal in 2014!

Some kids are stupider.

Yes, but even the stupidest kids (your phrasing, not mine!) deserve and receive an equal opportunity for advanced elementary education. So FCPS is complying with its requirements! As has already been said on this thread, "equal opportunity" does not mean "equal, period."

but how can they be "advanced" if they are "stupider" (not my word either)?

^ never mind. I misread you post.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why aren't all children getting an equal opportunity for advanced elementary education?
Has this been forgotten; "Equal opportunity education for all students"!!
It still isn't equal in 2014!

Some kids are stupider.

Yes, but even the stupidest kids (your phrasing, not mine!) deserve and receive an equal opportunity for advanced elementary education. So FCPS is complying with its requirements! As has already been said on this thread, "equal opportunity" does not mean "equal, period."

They deserve and should receive whatever level of education they're capable of. Not everybody is capable of being advanced. All kids are tested; they have an equal opportunity to get into AAP. Some kids simply aren't bright enough to handle a program like AAP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why aren't all children getting an equal opportunity for advanced elementary education?
Has this been forgotten; "Equal opportunity education for all students"!!
It still isn't equal in 2014!

Some kids are stupider.

Yes, but even the stupidest kids (your phrasing, not mine!) deserve and receive an equal opportunity for advanced elementary education. So FCPS is complying with its requirements! As has already been said on this thread, "equal opportunity" does not mean "equal, period."

They deserve and should receive whatever level of education they're capable of. Not everybody is capable of being advanced. All kids are tested; they have an equal opportunity to get into AAP. Some kids simply aren't bright enough to handle a program like AAP.

There are kids who are too advanced for gen ed, as it is now, and are deemed not eligible for AAP. Those kids aren't being properly served. Something needs to be done to fix this, otherwise you'll have even more crazed parents doing everything possible to get into AAP and even more angry parents of these kids who fall into that gap arguing how unfair and unequal AAP is. I think the whole tracking is bad mentality is what created this divide. Not sure how you get around that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why aren't all children getting an equal opportunity for advanced elementary education?
Has this been forgotten; "Equal opportunity education for all students"!!
It still isn't equal in 2014!

Some kids are stupider.

Yes, but even the stupidest kids (your phrasing, not mine!) deserve and receive an equal opportunity for advanced elementary education. So FCPS is complying with its requirements! As has already been said on this thread, "equal opportunity" does not mean "equal, period."

They deserve and should receive whatever level of education they're capable of. Not everybody is capable of being advanced. All kids are tested; they have an equal opportunity to get into AAP. Some kids simply aren't bright enough to handle a program like AAP.

There are kids who are too advanced for gen ed, as it is now, and are deemed not eligible for AAP. Those kids aren't being properly served. Something needs to be done to fix this, otherwise you'll have even more crazed parents doing everything possible to get into AAP and even more angry parents of these kids who fall into that gap arguing how unfair and unequal AAP is. I think the whole tracking is bad mentality is what created this divide. Not sure how you get around that.

So you are not happy with these moderately advanced kids being lumped in with GenEd kids.
And you aren't happy with tracking either. I assume that you'd see a stronger AAP Level 1-3 as tracking?

So what's your solution? Only complaints and no solutions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why aren't all children getting an equal opportunity for advanced elementary education?
Has this been forgotten; "Equal opportunity education for all students"!!
It still isn't equal in 2014!

Some kids are stupider.

Yes, but even the stupidest kids (your phrasing, not mine!) deserve and receive an equal opportunity for advanced elementary education. So FCPS is complying with its requirements! As has already been said on this thread, "equal opportunity" does not mean "equal, period."

They deserve and should receive whatever level of education they're capable of. Not everybody is capable of being advanced. All kids are tested; they have an equal opportunity to get into AAP. Some kids simply aren't bright enough to handle a program like AAP.

There are kids who are too advanced for gen ed, as it is now, and are deemed not eligible for AAP. Those kids aren't being properly served. Something needs to be done to fix this, otherwise you'll have even more crazed parents doing everything possible to get into AAP and even more angry parents of these kids who fall into that gap arguing how unfair and unequal AAP is. I think the whole tracking is bad mentality is what created this divide. Not sure how you get around that.

So you are not happy with these moderately advanced kids being lumped in with GenEd kids.
And you aren't happy with tracking either. I assume that you'd see a stronger AAP Level 1-3 as tracking?

So what's your solution? Only complaints and no solutions?

The solution is one that has been mentioned over and over, but AAP parents refuse to hear it. AAP should be serving ONLY those kids in the top 1-5%, those whose educational needs cannot be met in a regular classroom. Period.

[Anonymous]

This thread was started for an explanation for the difference between tracking and the AAP program. In reading through the post it seems to me the consenses is that indeed the AAP program is absolutely tracking. So why then do FCPS teachers, at least several I have raised this question to, think that it is not tracking and treat tracking like it is a dirty word. Perhaps the fact that AAP is tracking is why FCPS is filling it with a larger percentage of above average students. I think they need justification for keeping the program. Personally I think they have crated a "monster" by lowering the standards for center admittance. To get rid of the tracking aspect they need to raise the bar for center admittance to accomodate only the truly exceptional academic students. All others should have their needs met in their assigned schools. It is absolutly wrong to give some above average learners advanced class work and not others (not to mention the check box on their school records). The admittance process is terribly flawed for an advanced academic program. Many of the students in the program are not advanced academically and many students who are advanced are not "selected" because of the favoritism and horrible subjectivity which is used in the selection process for all levels of the current AAP program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why aren't all children getting an equal opportunity for advanced elementary education?
Has this been forgotten; "Equal opportunity education for all students"!!
It still isn't equal in 2014!

Some kids are stupider.

Yes, but even the stupidest kids (your phrasing, not mine!) deserve and receive an equal opportunity for advanced elementary education. So FCPS is complying with its requirements! As has already been said on this thread, "equal opportunity" does not mean "equal, period."

They deserve and should receive whatever level of education they're capable of. Not everybody is capable of being advanced. All kids are tested; they have an equal opportunity to get into AAP. Some kids simply aren't bright enough to handle a program like AAP.

There are kids who are too advanced for gen ed, as it is now, and are deemed not eligible for AAP. Those kids aren't being properly served. Something needs to be done to fix this, otherwise you'll have even more crazed parents doing everything possible to get into AAP and even more angry parents of these kids who fall into that gap arguing how unfair and unequal AAP is. I think the whole tracking is bad mentality is what created this divide. Not sure how you get around that.

So you are not happy with these moderately advanced kids being lumped in with GenEd kids.
And you aren't happy with tracking either. I assume that you'd see a stronger AAP Level 1-3 as tracking?

So what's your solution? Only complaints and no solutions?

The solution is one that has been mentioned over and over, but AAP parents refuse to hear it. AAP should be serving ONLY those kids in the top 1-5%, those whose educational needs cannot be met in a regular classroom. Period.

The issue I am seeing is what to do with the students who cannot function in a regular classroom. FCPS is labeling these students as twice exceptional and placing them in AAP. It seems to me to be a way of accomodatining a large group of students who create a difficult classroom enviornment in the regular classroom. However, the AAP program is not where these students should be because most are not the "high level learner" one would expect in an AAP program. These children need to be accomodated somewhere.