Religious families-Do your children easily love God?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand why posters who don't agree with organized religion feel the need to post and demonize those who do.

Are you trying to enlighten those of us who have a different approach to raising our children? Do you even have children? Why did you stop at the religion forum to make your stand in defense of the children? Why not find a food forum where you can tell people they are depriving their kids by not giving them gluten or how they should let children make their own dietary decisions.

I'm being a bit facetious but am also asking honestly.

Why is it so important to say something that is not only unproductive but, at times, mean-spirited? There are those who are genuinely offering thought-provoking positions and I appreciate your maturity, but some others ...

And I find it interesting that those who are self-proclaimed agnostic or atheist -- the ones who are often humanist by default -- are some here who are most belligerent to other people. Why is that? Aren't you supposed to put your faith in your fellow humans.

I haven't noticed what I would consider demonization of religion. People (myself included) have called about specific practices regarding inculcating religious belief in children that they questioned, but have also commented positively on other examples of including spirituality in children's lives.

We have participants who are struggling with this issue with their own children, we have others who were raised with or without religion who are commenting on their own experiences and how they relate to what parents are saying in this thread.

Compared to many threads about religion, this one has been fairly tame and respectful. There are certainly a number of threads where atheist posters have attempted to hijack the threads with anti-religion vitriol, but that hasn't happened in this thread.

Just because people disagree doesn't make them disrespectful. That used to be called discussion and debate, and is the type of exchange of views that discussion boards are supposed to be used for.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Just because people disagree doesn't make them disrespectful. That used to be called discussion and debate, and is the type of exchange of views that discussion boards are supposed to be used for.

True, but why can't we approach one another without using words like indoctrination and brainwashing. Why go to the place where it is suggested believers are stuck in the dark ages with our myths, our opiate. See how that could shut down discussion from the start?

My kids are going to grow up in a more diverse society than we did. So let's TALK ABOUT IT. Why isn't there more room for discussion as grown adults? We have some dialogue in this thread, but not everyone seems open to it.

I hear several posters here have had really negative run-ins with religion or with religious people. Don't try to work through that in every conversation on the issue. I'll try not to work through issues I have with some really repugnant atheists I have met. THEY ARE NOT EQUAL TO THEIR STANCE. The jerk atheist I heard at the store or the proselytizing relative you were forced to endure at Thanksgiving do not represent the whole of the population.

You *don't* believe: I can't relate but you came to that decision through thought and experience I assume. I *do* believe: I also came to that through thought and decision. You may raise your children without religion or with a broad education on all religions in a cultural context saying that knowing these things will serve them well in life, OK. I may raise my kids knowing that their parents have deep faith and we believe it will serve them well in life, OK.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The greatest thing you can do, IMO, is keep strong the domestic church in your home. Live by example be open to talking with your children and taking an interest in them, not just religiously. Build strong connections, create a foundation of love. Pray for them regularly. Keep God in their world so He doesn't seem like a foreign concept if they find themselves seeking Him or wondering more about Him.

THIS! Make the Love of the Lord the broad context and foundation of your family. Each person has to develop a PERSONAL relationship with God. Stop trying to "make it" happen. Make it something they see or you will end up driving them away.

And keep in mind that your children may never develop a personal relationship with God, because they simply can't fathom such a being and the society they are growing up in is not as god-centered.

Did you hear that the humanist mayor-elect of Boston had a humanist chaplain (as well as various clergy) say a few words at a city event? The humanists were shut out ofter the Boston Marathon killings and the new mayor didn't want it to happen again.

This is the kind of thing that is going to happen more often in your kids' lives. They will see that people who do not not invoke god are part of mainstream society.

Uh -- yes -- I know they may not develop a faith or a relationship. That's why I said it is a "personal" relationship. I believe in God, live my life accordingly, not perfectly, but actively working on my faith. That is the foundation of our family and the context in which we raise our kids. We explain that others believe differently and have a right to do so. It is my desire for my kids to have faith in God and have that personal relationship, but I have sense enough to know that I cannot make that happen, only lay the fertile ground for it to happen. Their lives belong to God, not to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Just because people disagree doesn't make them disrespectful. That used to be called discussion and debate, and is the type of exchange of views that discussion boards are supposed to be used for.

True, but why can't we approach one another without using words like indoctrination and brainwashing. Why go to the place where it is suggested believers are stuck in the dark ages with our myths, our opiate. See how that could shut down discussion from the start?

My kids are going to grow up in a more diverse society than we did. So let's TALK ABOUT IT. Why isn't there more room for discussion as grown adults? We have some dialogue in this thread, but not everyone seems open to it.

I hear several posters here have had really negative run-ins with religion or with religious people. Don't try to work through that in every conversation on the issue. I'll try not to work through issues I have with some really repugnant atheists I have met. THEY ARE NOT EQUAL TO THEIR STANCE. The jerk atheist I heard at the store or the proselytizing relative you were forced to endure at Thanksgiving do not represent the whole of the population.

You *don't* believe: I can't relate but you came to that decision through thought and experience I assume. I *do* believe: I also came to that through thought and decision. You may raise your children without religion or with a broad education on all religions in a cultural context saying that knowing these things will serve them well in life, OK. I may raise my kids knowing that their parents have deep faith and we believe it will serve them well in life, OK.

Well said.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't have kids, and this question has been on my mind for a little bit. Parents who go to church, or any other spiritual gathering, do you have to try hard to get your little ones interested? Are they enthusiastic about the whole "God" thing?

No, mine are more into deeds not creeds.

[Anonymous]

I think of it as consciousness raising.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Just because people disagree doesn't make them disrespectful. That used to be called discussion and debate, and is the type of exchange of views that discussion boards are supposed to be used for.

True, but why can't we approach one another without using words like indoctrination and brainwashing. Why go to the place where it is suggested believers are stuck in the dark ages with our myths, our opiate. See how that could shut down discussion from the start?

My kids are going to grow up in a more diverse society than we did. So let's TALK ABOUT IT. Why isn't there more room for discussion as grown adults? We have some dialogue in this thread, but not everyone seems open to it.

I hear several posters here have had really negative run-ins with religion or with religious people. Don't try to work through that in every conversation on the issue. I'll try not to work through issues I have with some really repugnant atheists I have met. THEY ARE NOT EQUAL TO THEIR STANCE. The jerk atheist I heard at the store or the proselytizing relative you were forced to endure at Thanksgiving do not represent the whole of the population.

You *don't* believe: I can't relate but you came to that decision through thought and experience I assume. I *do* believe: I also came to that through thought and decision. You may raise your children without religion or with a broad education on all religions in a cultural context saying that knowing these things will serve them well in life, OK. I may raise my kids knowing that their parents have deep faith and we believe it will serve them well in life, OK.

Sorry, but indoctrination is what it is - when children are taught one perspective only - and that's what some people here do -- and frankly how many people have been raised. It also means learning a limited view of religion -- what you're supposed to believe, and not the history of the religion -- the man-made part.

The jertk atheist and the proselytizing relative may not be on this board, but people with information and opinions some people might not like or agree with are. We'll only learn from each other if we don't try to shut each other up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The greatest thing you can do, IMO, is keep strong the domestic church in your home. Live by example be open to talking with your children and taking an interest in them, not just religiously. Build strong connections, create a foundation of love. Pray for them regularly. Keep God in their world so He doesn't seem like a foreign concept if they find themselves seeking Him or wondering more about Him.

THIS! Make the Love of the Lord the broad context and foundation of your family. Each person has to develop a PERSONAL relationship with God. Stop trying to "make it" happen. Make it something they see or you will end up driving them away.

And keep in mind that your children may never develop a personal relationship with God, because they simply can't fathom such a being and the society they are growing up in is not as god-centered.

Did you hear that the humanist mayor-elect of Boston had a humanist chaplain (as well as various clergy) say a few words at a city event? The humanists were shut out ofter the Boston Marathon killings and the new mayor didn't want it to happen again.

This is the kind of thing that is going to happen more often in your kids' lives. They will see that people who do not not invoke god are part of mainstream society.

Uh -- yes -- I know they may not develop a faith or a relationship. That's why I said it is a "personal" relationship. I believe in God, live my life accordingly, not perfectly, but actively working on my faith. That is the foundation of our family and the context in which we raise our kids. We explain that others believe differently and have a right to do so. It is my desire for my kids to have faith in God and have that personal relationship, but I have sense enough to know that I cannot make that happen, only lay the fertile ground for it to happen. Their lives belong to God, not to me.

Or as a humanist would say, their lives belong to themselves, not to their parents. I hope your fertile ground includes exposure to discussions with other kids and adults who do not believe in a supernatural god or a set of beliefs and doctrines associated with a particular religion.

And I can't help but ask -- if you believe in God and that your children's lives belong to him -- why would they need so much faith-building to believe in him? Why wouldn't God make it natural and easy for all people to believe in him, especially children of his most devoted followers?

I'm not asking for an answer, but I am curious about this.

[Anonymous]

True, but why can't we approach one another without using words like indoctrination and brainwashing. Why go to the place where it is suggested believers are stuck in the dark ages with our myths, our opiate. See how that could shut down discussion from the start?

Those terms were actually used applying to specific things certain posters said, and the approach those posters were taking with their children was distinguished from the approach other posters are taking with their children.

To me, if you have to focus on having five other adults always reinforcing the fact that your child should believe in God, and you're sending them to all kinds of extra classes, youth groups and other activities designed to reinforce that belief, that's a type of indoctrination, and whether you like it or not, indoctrination is an accurate word for it. That's the type of environment where children grow up to fear that if they ever question the belief structure of the group they will be ostracized and lose everything.

If you have to make an effort to make sure your children and your home life is all about God and your religion on a 24/7 basis so that your children grow up to believe as you do, that's a type of indoctrination. You are trying to cause them to believe in the specific way you want them to believe. Again, that's the type of environment where children grow up being afraid to question.

If you have to force your older children to go to church to "worship God," do you really believe your God wants that coerced attendance, and is it really worth driving that wedge between you and your children? Obviously some posters think it is. Do you really think they're feeling "God's love" under those circumstances, or are they resenting you and your religion?

My point in putting some of those comments in the communist context was to show how it sounds when someone is not talking about belief in your religion, and demonstrate how some of those posts sound a little over zealous and a little creepy.

If it looked creepy or offensive to you when described in the context of communism, perhaps you might want to look at your parenting style and ask, "Is it possible that I'm going over the top and driving my kids in the other direction?"

On the other hand, there are some parents posting on here who are comfortable with their own faith and have confidence in the choices that their children make. They are educating their children about religion by demonstrating their own beliefs to their children and living a life that exemplifies their beliefs.

Ask yourself, "What happens if my child chooses a different spiritual path or decides not to believe?" If your answer is, that's fine with me, as long as he/she is happy and healthy, that's great! If your answer is something different, then you might want to look at what's driving you that way, and why you're putting so much emphasis on trying to cause your children to believe something specific, rather than trying to give them the framework to make their own choices.

[Anonymous]

We live together and learn from one another. By using divisive verbiage we are accomplishing nothing. OK, you are arguing that technically the word indoctrination could be applied, but should it when we're trying to see one another's point of view? This is a basic respectful discussion, is it not?

I'm not saying your techniques aren't effective for getting your point across, but if I'm just trying to talk to you about our stances than your continually playing "gotcha" with me is not moving the ball forward.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The greatest thing you can do, IMO, is keep strong the domestic church in your home. Live by example be open to talking with your children and taking an interest in them, not just religiously. Build strong connections, create a foundation of love. Pray for them regularly. Keep God in their world so He doesn't seem like a foreign concept if they find themselves seeking Him or wondering more about Him.

THIS! Make the Love of the Lord the broad context and foundation of your family. Each person has to develop a PERSONAL relationship with God. Stop trying to "make it" happen. Make it something they see or you will end up driving them away.

And keep in mind that your children may never develop a personal relationship with God, because they simply can't fathom such a being and the society they are growing up in is not as god-centered.

Did you hear that the humanist mayor-elect of Boston had a humanist chaplain (as well as various clergy) say a few words at a city event? The humanists were shut out ofter the Boston Marathon killings and the new mayor didn't want it to happen again.

This is the kind of thing that is going to happen more often in your kids' lives. They will see that people who do not not invoke god are part of mainstream society.

Uh -- yes -- I know they may not develop a faith or a relationship. That's why I said it is a "personal" relationship. I believe in God, live my life accordingly, not perfectly, but actively working on my faith. That is the foundation of our family and the context in which we raise our kids. We explain that others believe differently and have a right to do so. It is my desire for my kids to have faith in God and have that personal relationship, but I have sense enough to know that I cannot make that happen, only lay the fertile ground for it to happen. Their lives belong to God, not to me.

Or as a humanist would say, their lives belong to themselves, not to their parents. I hope your fertile ground includes exposure to discussions with other kids and adults who do not believe in a supernatural god or a set of beliefs and doctrines associated with a particular religion.

And I can't help but ask -- if you believe in God and that your children's lives belong to him -- why would they need so much faith-building to believe in him? Why wouldn't God make it natural and easy for all people to believe in him, especially children of his most devoted followers?

I'm not asking for an answer, but I am curious about this.

Yes, we do not hide that other people have different beliefs, and NO we do not belittle them. We are not afraid, if this is what you are implying --maybe you are not -- that discussion and exposure will weaken our faith. My daughter was recently interested in Judaism and got a "Encyclopedia of Judaism" from the library. One of her close friends has a Jewish mother, and DD thinks it is so cool because she will get to have a Bat Mitzvah. I explained that it is not simply a party, but a rite of passage in their faith that has deep meaning to them. We are Christian, but I did not shun from the discussion.
As for what you term "faith-building", we do not approach it in quite that way. We attend church(tho we've been slacking in that lately), we pray, study the Bible, have discussions.
Our kid sees us discussing faith, praying individually, etc. It's just our natural course of actions, not an agenda we set forth for "faith-building". We believe that our relationship with God is just that, a relationship. As in any relationship, it grows, needs to be tended, paid attention to. Because we believe in God as Father, Creator of the Universe, Perfect, it is not like having a relationship with a king, president, a boss who tells us what to do and gets mad when we do wrong. We believe that God is perfect love who has our best interest at heart, and who loved us FIRST. We want to know Him and understand him better, that happens through prayer and studying the Word. As for people believing in Him, God gave us free will. You can choose to believe or not. God makes himself available and is not afraid of you questioning Him, asking Him to show Himself in your life.
On the other hand, how would you feel if God just "made" you believe Him? I hear many people saying they don't want to someone, a God telling them what to do(because that is how they view religion), but then turn around and ask "if God is real, why doesn't he just make us believe in Him"? You cannot have it both ways.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
On the other hand, how would you feel if God just "made" you believe Him? I hear many people saying they don't want to someone, a God telling them what to do(because that is how they view religion), but then turn around and ask "if God is real, why doesn't he just make us believe in Him"? You cannot have it both ways.

We are born with free will. As pp said here, we aren't just made to believe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

True, but why can't we approach one another without using words like indoctrination and brainwashing. Why go to the place where it is suggested believers are stuck in the dark ages with our myths, our opiate. See how that could shut down discussion from the start?

Those terms were actually used applying to specific things certain posters said, and the approach those posters were taking with their children was distinguished from the approach other posters are taking with their children.

To me, if you have to focus on having five other adults always reinforcing the fact that your child should believe in God, and you're sending them to all kinds of extra classes, youth groups and other activities designed to reinforce that belief, that's a type of indoctrination, and whether you like it or not, indoctrination is an accurate word for it. That's the type of environment where children grow up to fear that if they ever question the belief structure of the group they will be ostracized and lose everything.

If you have to make an effort to make sure your children and your home life is all about God and your religion on a 24/7 basis so that your children grow up to believe as you do, that's a type of indoctrination. You are trying to cause them to believe in the specific way you want them to believe. Again, that's the type of environment where children grow up being afraid to question.

If you have to force your older children to go to church to "worship God," do you really believe your God wants that coerced attendance, and is it really worth driving that wedge between you and your children? Obviously some posters think it is. Do you really think they're feeling "God's love" under those circumstances, or are they resenting you and your religion?

My point in putting some of those comments in the communist context was to show how it sounds when someone is not talking about belief in your religion, and demonstrate how some of those posts sound a little over zealous and a little creepy.

If it looked creepy or offensive to you when described in the context of communism, perhaps you might want to look at your parenting style and ask, "Is it possible that I'm going over the top and driving my kids in the other direction?"

On the other hand, there are some parents posting on here who are comfortable with their own faith and have confidence in the choices that their children make. They are educating their children about religion by demonstrating their own beliefs to their children and living a life that exemplifies their beliefs.

Ask yourself, "What happens if my child chooses a different spiritual path or decides not to believe?" If your answer is, that's fine with me, as long as he/she is happy and healthy, that's great! If your answer is something different, then you might want to look at what's driving you that way, and why you're putting so much emphasis on trying to cause your children to believe something specific, rather than trying to give them the framework to make their own choices.

Wow -- you went wayyyyy off the mark here. You do realize that folks can send their kids to all kinds of Church activities, Church services, pray at home, talk about God, etc. and never, ever, ever say or imply that if they do not believe in God that they will be ostracized. As a matter of fact, as a Christian that is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what I believe and teach my child. Just for the record there is wide, wide berth between living a life of faith and being David Koresh.
Dannggggg!

[Anonymous]

I'm not trying to play gotcha. I'm trying to distinguish different parenting approaches to spirituality and religious education.

If you don't like the term indoctrination for the subset of practices I'm specifically calling out, then explain why the term isn't appropriate and why my reaction to it is wrong.

I've been consistent about which practices I've called indoctrination and, as I also keep noting, there are parents involved in this conversation who take a much more open ended and, I would say, respectful, approach to their children's spiritual development and religious education.

If you think the parents using the methods I've called indoctrination are actually doing something open minded that supports their children's education and spiritual growth - whatever path those children chose, then I'm open to hearing how I've misinterpreted what seems to be a dedicated effort to cause their children to believe exactly what, and in the way, that their parents believe.

If, on the other hand, you just don't like the word because you don't like the way it feels when it's applied to what you're doing with your kids, then perhaps you need to look at why the word stings, not the word itself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

True, but why can't we approach one another without using words like indoctrination and brainwashing. Why go to the place where it is suggested believers are stuck in the dark ages with our myths, our opiate. See how that could shut down discussion from the start?

Those terms were actually used applying to specific things certain posters said, and the approach those posters were taking with their children was distinguished from the approach other posters are taking with their children.

To me, if you have to focus on having five other adults always reinforcing the fact that your child should believe in God, and you're sending them to all kinds of extra classes, youth groups and other activities designed to reinforce that belief, that's a type of indoctrination, and whether you like it or not, indoctrination is an accurate word for it. That's the type of environment where children grow up to fear that if they ever question the belief structure of the group they will be ostracized and lose everything.

If you have to make an effort to make sure your children and your home life is all about God and your religion on a 24/7 basis so that your children grow up to believe as you do, that's a type of indoctrination. You are trying to cause them to believe in the specific way you want them to believe. Again, that's the type of environment where children grow up being afraid to question.

If you have to force your older children to go to church to "worship God," do you really believe your God wants that coerced attendance, and is it really worth driving that wedge between you and your children? Obviously some posters think it is. Do you really think they're feeling "God's love" under those circumstances, or are they resenting you and your religion?

My point in putting some of those comments in the communist context was to show how it sounds when someone is not talking about belief in your religion, and demonstrate how some of those posts sound a little over zealous and a little creepy.

If it looked creepy or offensive to you when described in the context of communism, perhaps you might want to look at your parenting style and ask, "Is it possible that I'm going over the top and driving my kids in the other direction?"

On the other hand, there are some parents posting on here who are comfortable with their own faith and have confidence in the choices that their children make. They are educating their children about religion by demonstrating their own beliefs to their children and living a life that exemplifies their beliefs.

Ask yourself, "What happens if my child chooses a different spiritual path or decides not to believe?" If your answer is, that's fine with me, as long as he/she is happy and healthy, that's great! If your answer is something different, then you might want to look at what's driving you that way, and why you're putting so much emphasis on trying to cause your children to believe something specific, rather than trying to give them the framework to make their own choices.

I am not making anyone believe anything, I am living out my beliefs and my kid(s) see that because they live with me. I am not constantly drilling into my kid 'you have to believe in God' and then send them to 50 different faith based activities to try to convince them to belive. That is not authentic and will not work. I believe in God as real presence, existence, not as an abstract concept. I believe in building a relationship with my Creator. That is what my kids will have to do as well. And they will see how their parents do it, that is the example we are setting. I think you do not have an understanding of faith, God and what that means. You are making a lot of assumptions that are just not true, at least for a lot of people. You do not believe in God, which is fine, but that does not mean that because I do I am "indoctrinating" my kid, it does not necessarily work that way.