MCPS just isn't so great anymore - WashPo Opinion 9/6/2013

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Well, MCPS could be a "pioneer" and do like they do in Europe. Kids don't ride special school buses. They ride on public transportation. I recognize this is more challenging for elementary but middle/high schoolers should be capable of this. This would have the additional benefit of enhancing/expanding public transportation through the county.

MCPS for the most part is densely populated enough for this to work. Also, who says that a program would allow you to change your choice every year? And who says choice would be given to 100% of students on day 1? This could be phased in.

Imagine: in the Netherlands, there is no such thing as an in-boundary school. Where you live does not determine where you go to school.

Middle/high schoolers are not capable of getting places on public transportation that does not exist. And school reform based on something that does not exist is not school reform, it's a pipe dream.

(School reform based on something that might exist someday is also a pipe dream, not school reform.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:One quick comment about teacher quality at W schools versus poor schools. I don't know if the data is available, but I'd be willing to bet that teacher retention at the W schools is higher than at the poorer schools, which I suspect experience a lot of teacher turnover. I assume that's a bad thing for the kids/school, but I don't really know. Not saying the teachers at the poorer schools are less qualified or anything. I have teacher friends who explain that at the poorer schools you often become more of a babysitter dealing with behavioral problems, and teachers who really enjoy teaching try to find opportunities where the kids come to school eager to learn and in a setting conducive to teaching.

I think teacher retention is more a reflection of the school administration. When you have a principal that teachers like to work for, they stay.

My kids are in a "W" school district. There is extremely high turnover at the elementary school, high retention at the middle school, then again high turnover at the high school. Same families, same kids progressing through the schools, just different principals. The schools with high turnover tend to attract teachers who are younger with less experience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well, MCPS could be a "pioneer" and do like they do in Europe. Kids don't ride special school buses. They ride on public transportation. I recognize this is more challenging for elementary but middle/high schoolers should be capable of this. This would have the additional benefit of enhancing/expanding public transportation through the county.

MCPS for the most part is densely populated enough for this to work. Also, who says that a program would allow you to change your choice every year? And who says choice would be given to 100% of students on day 1? This could be phased in.

Imagine: in the Netherlands, there is no such thing as an in-boundary school. Where you live does not determine where you go to school.

Middle/high schoolers are not capable of getting places on public transportation that does not exist. And school reform based on something that does not exist is not school reform, it's a pipe dream.

(School reform based on something that might exist someday is also a pipe dream, not school reform.)

And PP you hope what? - Mandatory busing will happen? Obviously you have not been to a Boundary Study meeting to personally know the political backlash when any school boundaries are changed. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN county wide without a court mandate that the Board of Ed members and the Superintendent can point to saying they have to redistrict because so and so said we had to. They will need a scape goat before taking such a politically unpopular move.

[Anonymous]

I am the PP at 9:57, and yes, I agree that mandatory busing will not happen. Major boundary changes will also not happen -- and getting rid of school boundaries won't happen either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am the PP at 9:57, and yes, I agree that mandatory busing will not happen. Major boundary changes will also not happen -- and getting rid of school boundaries won't happen either.

So any ideas on how you would close achievement gaps in MCPS? Hmm?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am the PP at 9:57, and yes, I agree that mandatory busing will not happen. Major boundary changes will also not happen -- and getting rid of school boundaries won't happen either.

So any ideas on how you would close achievement gaps in MCPS? Hmm?

I think that MCPS needs to keep doing what they're doing -- direct more resources towards the schools that need it more.

Meanwhile, Montgomery County needs to do more for geographic diversity of affordable housing, through MPDUs, accessory apartments, more flexibility on zoning, improved transit accessibility, etc.

[Anonymous]

I think that MCPS "focus schools" efforts has actually been pretty effective at the elementary level. They invested resources in lower class size in lower elementary grades in targeted schools. There are several elementary schools with high FARMS rates that now do pretty well on standardized tests.

I would suggest greater investment in middle schools and maybe high schools with high FARMS rates. For example- lower class sizes, salary/retention bonuses for teachers who choose to work in the most challenging schools, efforts to recruit high-quality principals, and greater investment in enriching afterschool programs.

I don't think a major rezoning/busing initiative is going to happen, but as MCSP faces overcrowding at many schools, they will likely need to draw new boundaries anyways for some schools. This might be an opportunity to promote more diverse schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MCPS isn't so great because of the barriers to education all children face. Children with highly educated parents and whose parents have the means to supplement where the school system lacks in instruction do have a huge advantage over children with limited resources. Your can shuffle the kids around, bus them here and there, but the socio-economic barrier will still be there. The numbers will just be smoothed out per school populations.

No. You are assuming that a given child with poor and less-educated parents will do the same, academically, regardless of the school the child goes to. But that is not true. A given child with poor, less-educated parents will do better, academically, if it goes to a school with lots of non-poor, more-educated parents than if it goes to a school where all of the other children also have poor, less-educated parents.

Where's the data to support your theory? There are Section 8 kids that go to Winston Churchill High School. Does the data show that they do better than Section 8 students elsewhere in the county? Nope.

Do you have data to support your theory?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MCPS isn't so great because of the barriers to education all children face. Children with highly educated parents and whose parents have the means to supplement where the school system lacks in instruction do have a huge advantage over children with limited resources. Your can shuffle the kids around, bus them here and there, but the socio-economic barrier will still be there. The numbers will just be smoothed out per school populations.

No. You are assuming that a given child with poor and less-educated parents will do the same, academically, regardless of the school the child goes to. But that is not true. A given child with poor, less-educated parents will do better, academically, if it goes to a school with lots of non-poor, more-educated parents than if it goes to a school where all of the other children also have poor, less-educated parents.

Where's the data to support your theory? There are Section 8 kids that go to Winston Churchill High School. Does the data show that they do better than Section 8 students elsewhere in the county? Nope.

Do you have data to support your theory?

Housing Policy Is School Policy: Economically Integrative Housing Promotes Academic Success in Montgomery County, Maryland -- by Heather Schwartz, at RAND, in 2010

http://tcf.org/assets/downloads/tcf-Schwartz.pdf

"...over a period of five to seven years, children in public housing who attended the school district’s most-advantaged schools (as measured by either subsidized lunch status or the district’s own criteria) far outperformed in math and reading those children in public housing who attended the district’s least-advantaged elementary schools."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MCPS isn't so great because of the barriers to education all children face. Children with highly educated parents and whose parents have the means to supplement where the school system lacks in instruction do have a huge advantage over children with limited resources. Your can shuffle the kids around, bus them here and there, but the socio-economic barrier will still be there. The numbers will just be smoothed out per school populations.

No. You are assuming that a given child with poor and less-educated parents will do the same, academically, regardless of the school the child goes to. But that is not true. A given child with poor, less-educated parents will do better, academically, if it goes to a school with lots of non-poor, more-educated parents than if it goes to a school where all of the other children also have poor, less-educated parents.

Where's the data to support your theory? There are Section 8 kids that go to Winston Churchill High School. Does the data show that they do better than Section 8 students elsewhere in the county? Nope.

Do you have data to support your theory?

Housing Policy Is School Policy: Economically Integrative Housing Promotes Academic Success in Montgomery County, Maryland -- by Heather Schwartz, at RAND, in 2010

http://tcf.org/assets/downloads/tcf-Schwartz.pdf

"...over a period of five to seven years, children in public housing who attended the school district’s most-advantaged schools (as measured by either subsidized lunch status or the district’s own criteria) far outperformed in math and reading those children in public housing who attended the district’s least-advantaged elementary schools."

Interesting read. I have two comments after reading this:

1) They say that performance is improved in schools where the FARMS rate is between 0-20%. Since the FARMS rate is 32% in MoCo and 40%+ in the rest of the country it's hard to see how this could be a comprehensive solution even if the busing logistics were feasible.
2) The study didn't say what (if anything) happened to the performance of the non-FARMS students as the % of FARMS students increased.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And I'm assuming that you don't support his proposed solution of boundary changes for better demographic and economic integration -- or do you?

I don't see why that option shouldn't be on the table. But it may be more politically possible in the form of choice versus "forced" busing.

There are currently some boundaries drawn that in effect already act to integrate in this way. Check out the BCC cluster boundaries.

Yeah, and my kids go to one of the diverse schools in the BCC cluster and half of the white families in the neighborhood won't send their kids to the school because there are too many poor and minority students. I think his article had some great points and his solution is a nice idea, but totally unrealistic. The minute you start changing the boundaries is the minute white people flee MoCo. Sad but true.

For where? Howard County? Baltimore County? Virginia?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And I'm assuming that you don't support his proposed solution of boundary changes for better demographic and economic integration -- or do you?

I don't see why that option shouldn't be on the table. But it may be more politically possible in the form of choice versus "forced" busing.

There are currently some boundaries drawn that in effect already act to integrate in this way. Check out the BCC cluster boundaries.

Yeah, and my kids go to one of the diverse schools in the BCC cluster and half of the white families in the neighborhood won't send their kids to the school because there are too many poor and minority students. I think his article had some great points and his solution is a nice idea, but totally unrealistic. The minute you start changing the boundaries is the minute white people flee MoCo. Sad but true.

For where? Howard County? Baltimore County? Virginia?

I am up for moving to VA. Won't have to switch jobs and schools there aren't subject to the Common Core Standards. I have also considered transferring to Texas. Beyond that, I am looking into private schools in the DC area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And I'm assuming that you don't support his proposed solution of boundary changes for better demographic and economic integration -- or do you?

I don't see why that option shouldn't be on the table. But it may be more politically possible in the form of choice versus "forced" busing.

There are currently some boundaries drawn that in effect already act to integrate in this way. Check out the BCC cluster boundaries.

Yeah, and my kids go to one of the diverse schools in the BCC cluster and half of the white families in the neighborhood won't send their kids to the school because there are too many poor and minority students. I think his article had some great points and his solution is a nice idea, but totally unrealistic. The minute you start changing the boundaries is the minute white people flee MoCo. Sad but true.

For where? Howard County? Baltimore County? Virginia?

I am up for moving to VA. Won't have to switch jobs and schools there aren't subject to the Common Core Standards. I have also considered transferring to Texas. Beyond that, I am looking into private schools in the DC area.

You do realize that Virginia and Texas have state standards that are considered less rigorous than the Common Core?

[Anonymous]

Texas! For god's sake do some research first. Texas is notorious for low standards and crazy interventions into the curriculum by idealogues. If you want your children to learn that dinosaurs and men may have walked the earth at the same time, by all means move to Texas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Texas! For god's sake do some research first. Texas is notorious for low standards and crazy interventions into the curriculum by idealogues. If you want your children to learn that dinosaurs and men may have walked the earth at the same time, by all means move to Texas.

They didn't? Next you'll try to convince me that the earth revolves around the sun or something.