MCPS just isn't so great anymore - WashPo Opinion 9/6/2013

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:MCPS isn't so great because of the barriers to education all children face. Children with highly educated parents and whose parents have the means to supplement where the school system lacks in instruction do have a huge advantage over children with limited resources. Your can shuffle the kids around, bus them here and there, but the socio-economic barrier will still be there. The numbers will just be smoothed out per school populations.

No. You are assuming that a given child with poor and less-educated parents will do the same, academically, regardless of the school the child goes to. But that is not true. A given child with poor, less-educated parents will do better, academically, if it goes to a school with lots of non-poor, more-educated parents than if it goes to a school where all of the other children also have poor, less-educated parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To the PP, it's not quite fair to say the only thing you could do to help kids in poverty is give them new parents. I thought the research was pretty clear on the benefits of putting disadvantaged kids in smaller classes, and in schools not completely full of other disadvantaged kids.

By all means - put the disadvantaged kids in smaller classes - I am all for it.

But putting your disadvantaged kid in the same class as my high achiever kid, may help your kid, but is actually hampering my child in reaching his full potential.

Good for your kid. Got that. Bad for my kid. Where is the logic of that?

I just disagree that it would be bad for your child. Poverty is not contagious. Young children are smart and adaptable. Someone is bound on come on here and tell about how difficult it was for their middle class kid at a school that was 90% FARMs. There's the point exactly. Schools that are 90% FARMs aren't good for anyone.

If you disagree, then just substitute "black" for "disadvantaged." So your quote above would read "putting your black kid in the same class as my kid, may help your kid, but is actually hampering my child in reaching his full potential." It sounds archaic and objectionable. Saying it about poor kids in general sounds no different to me.

I did not say "BLACK" kid - I did not say "POVERTY" ...this is your mindset, your perception and the chip on your shoulder - so you can deal with it or wallow in it - your choice. I am talking about parenting as a factor in the success of students. Something that MCPS cannot replicate on an institutional basis.

I do not have a problem with a child from a "poor" family or any other minority group sitting in the same classroom as my child - since I am a minority too whose kids have gone to the bottom of the heap ES and MS in MCPS. I have a problem with disruptive students who are below grade level and who hamper my kid from being challenged academically in school. That is the kind of "disadvantaged student" I am seeing. Not Black not Hispanic, but a disruptive child who does not do assigned work or homework, who sucks up the time of the teacher. Pity the teachers as well, since they cannot even complain about such students because they get dinged in their evaluation.

OK, fair enough. Fortunately for me, my kids haven't gone to the bottom of the heap, as you say, so my perspective is different. Wouldn't you rather there was no school at the bottom of the heap, though, and children weren't segregated so completely by income? If you are a minority whose kids have gone to subpar schools, why are you arguing against Dan Reed?

I do not agree with Dan Reed. I think how schools are doing should not be a concern...the concern should be how individual students are doing. And how individual students are doing is in a large part a function of parenting. My kids did well in all the schools that they went to. And the teachers knew that if my kids stepped out of line in any shape or form...they would get hell from me. Studying is the profession of my kids, the school is their place of work - they know that I will not tolerate them giving anything but their best effort.

I can understand if the schools are performing poorly if - 1) the facilities are rundown 2) School supplies are inadequate 3) Teachers are under-qualified 4) Study resources are not available. Things which we saw in DCPS a few years back., This is however not the case in MCPS.

Redrawing the boundaries ...is achieving what precisely? The school population will change and the data will look better - except the kids who were doing well will continue to do well, the kids who were failing will continue to fail.

Lowering your educational standards or changing how you grade...is achieving what precisely? These students cannot compete and get good jobs in the end. Everyone suffers.

If MCPS cannot control the work ethic at home or impact the parent involvement...then maybe another solution is to do intensive tutoring for these disadvantaged kids - each and every day- 2 hours a day. If they don't attend or misbehave - send the bill to the parents.

MCPS should be in the business of teaching...and they are going away from it each and every year. I see a growing trend of a dual system of education in MCPS - what MCPS teaches and what the kids are being taught outside of school, privately. And the kids who are advantaged are the ones who are using this dual system.

I am a minority whose kids went to subpar schools and got the best education. The school were subpar because of the students - not because of the teachers or the curriculum. In the end these teachers helped to get my children where they are today. They guided them and they guided me. I met the most caring and dedicated teachers in these subpar schools. And they had it in them to help even a student who was disadvantaged but wanted to better themselves. Instead what they were dealing with everyday were kids who were disruptive and parents who were unable or unwilling to discipline .

So - show me a plan which will make these kids behave and apply themselves academically - and I will endorse and support the plan.

I am suspicious of any other plans that improves the school results by getting in higher performing kids in the mix. AND - I also think that this is a punishment for the kids who were doing well in studies but now are made to go to other schools with a peer group that is not interested in studies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

So - show me a plan which will make these kids behave and apply themselves academically - and I will endorse and support the plan.

I am suspicious of any other plans that improves the school results by getting in higher performing kids in the mix. AND - I also think that this is a punishment for the kids who were doing well in studies but now are made to go to other schools with a peer group that is not interested in studies.

One plan to improve the academic achievement of kids who go to schools where all the kids are poor is to put those kids in schools where not all the kids are poor.

But you've already rejected that plan.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:That sounds insane that tests and quizzes do not go home. Do FCPS do it that way too?

Agree with you that it's crazy that MCPS rules about test security mean that students never actually get to review their tests and learn from them. At the elementary level, C2.0 has solved this problem by simply ... eliminating the tests. The longer unit tests that have numerical reports on skills mastery (i.e. 3 out of 6 correct in geometry, 5 out of 6 right in computation, etc.) have been eliminated in favor of "ongoing" assessment by the teacher which can mean anything from the teacher walking around the classroom looking to see if he/she thinks the student "gets it" to short 1-2 question exercises on paper.

BUT, parents and students have a RIGHT to see these "secure exams" under the federal "Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act" (aka FERPA). You may have to sign a non-disclosure form, and you might have to go to the school to see the test in the presence of a teacher or administrator, but you have a right to see the test, the score sheet, test booklet, etc. I have made these kinds of requests a number of times. Sometimes teachers comply right away on the basis of the first oral request. Sometimes teachers say they "can't" or that the test is "secure" so it can't be shared. At that point, I have always been successful after a polite letter in writing to the principal citing FERPA and suggesting that someone at MCPS testing be contacted if there is any doubt about the request.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To the PP, it's not quite fair to say the only thing you could do to help kids in poverty is give them new parents. I thought the research was pretty clear on the benefits of putting disadvantaged kids in smaller classes, and in schools not completely full of other disadvantaged kids.

By all means - put the disadvantaged kids in smaller classes - I am all for it.

But putting your disadvantaged kid in the same class as my high achiever kid, may help your kid, but is actually hampering my child in reaching his full potential.

Good for your kid. Got that. Bad for my kid. Where is the logic of that?

I just disagree that it would be bad for your child. Poverty is not contagious. Young children are smart and adaptable. Someone is bound on come on here and tell about how difficult it was for their middle class kid at a school that was 90% FARMs. There's the point exactly. Schools that are 90% FARMs aren't good for anyone.

If you disagree, then just substitute "black" for "disadvantaged." So your quote above would read "putting your black kid in the same class as my kid, may help your kid, but is actually hampering my child in reaching his full potential." It sounds archaic and objectionable. Saying it about poor kids in general sounds no different to me.

I did not say "BLACK" kid - I did not say "POVERTY" ...this is your mindset, your perception and the chip on your shoulder - so you can deal with it or wallow in it - your choice. I am talking about parenting as a factor in the success of students. Something that MCPS cannot replicate on an institutional basis.

I do not have a problem with a child from a "poor" family or any other minority group sitting in the same classroom as my child - since I am a minority too whose kids have gone to the bottom of the heap ES and MS in MCPS. I have a problem with disruptive students who are below grade level and who hamper my kid from being challenged academically in school. That is the kind of "disadvantaged student" I am seeing. Not Black not Hispanic, but a disruptive child who does not do assigned work or homework, who sucks up the time of the teacher. Pity the teachers as well, since they cannot even complain about such students because they get dinged in their evaluation.

OK, fair enough. Fortunately for me, my kids haven't gone to the bottom of the heap, as you say, so my perspective is different. Wouldn't you rather there was no school at the bottom of the heap, though, and children weren't segregated so completely by income? If you are a minority whose kids have gone to subpar schools, why are you arguing against Dan Reed?

I do not agree with Dan Reed. I think how schools are doing should not be a concern...the concern should be how individual students are doing. And how individual students are doing is in a large part a function of parenting. My kids did well in all the schools that they went to. And the teachers knew that if my kids stepped out of line in any shape or form...they would get hell from me. Studying is the profession of my kids, the school is their place of work - they know that I will not tolerate them giving anything but their best effort.

I can understand if the schools are performing poorly if - 1) the facilities are rundown 2) School supplies are inadequate 3) Teachers are under-qualified 4) Study resources are not available. Things which we saw in DCPS a few years back., This is however not the case in MCPS.

Redrawing the boundaries ...is achieving what precisely? The school population will change and the data will look better - except the kids who were doing well will continue to do well, the kids who were failing will continue to fail.

Lowering your educational standards or changing how you grade...is achieving what precisely? These students cannot compete and get good jobs in the end. Everyone suffers.

If MCPS cannot control the work ethic at home or impact the parent involvement...then maybe another solution is to do intensive tutoring for these disadvantaged kids - each and every day- 2 hours a day. If they don't attend or misbehave - send the bill to the parents.

MCPS should be in the business of teaching...and they are going away from it each and every year. I see a growing trend of a dual system of education in MCPS - what MCPS teaches and what the kids are being taught outside of school, privately. And the kids who are advantaged are the ones who are using this dual system.

I am a minority whose kids went to subpar schools and got the best education. The school were subpar because of the students - not because of the teachers or the curriculum. In the end these teachers helped to get my children where they are today. They guided them and they guided me. I met the most caring and dedicated teachers in these subpar schools. And they had it in them to help even a student who was disadvantaged but wanted to better themselves. Instead what they were dealing with everyday were kids who were disruptive and parents who were unable or unwilling to discipline .

So - show me a plan which will make these kids behave and apply themselves academically - and I will endorse and support the plan.

I am suspicious of any other plans that improves the school results by getting in higher performing kids in the mix. AND - I also think that this is a punishment for the kids who were doing well in studies but now are made to go to other schools with a peer group that is not interested in studies.

This is very well said. Although I would like to pull everyone up with a rising tide, if kids are disruptive and parents don't care, then why should my child suffer? On the other hand, if the problem is, truly, that parents want to help (but can't due to poor education, time (working two jobs to pay the rent etc.), and children are disruptive because they don't have the structure, food, etc. they need at home (kids want to learn and have structure), shouldn't it be society's hope, and ultimately responsibility, to make sure we catch those kids whose parents are failing them? If we don't catch them then, we will end up catching them with our prison system, which is far less beneficial to the society as a whole.

[Anonymous]

I attended some not so great MCPS schools more than 20 years ago (Elementary-High) and did not have much family support. When I was younger, the school segregated kids by ability. I worked hard and I was put in the highest level classes. School was still difficult for me as I had to deal with behavioral problem kids on the buses throughout my MCPS life and behavioral problem kids in the classroom through elementary school. To have been put in classes starting in junior high/high school where only kids who wanted to learn where there, was the best blessing MCPS could have ever given me. Ability based grouping doesn't work for everyone, but I think it very important that kids who want to learn have the ability to do so without interruptions from behavioral problem type kids. Signed MCPS educated mom who sends her kids to private school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MCPS isn't so great because of the barriers to education all children face. Children with highly educated parents and whose parents have the means to supplement where the school system lacks in instruction do have a huge advantage over children with limited resources. Your can shuffle the kids around, bus them here and there, but the socio-economic barrier will still be there. The numbers will just be smoothed out per school populations.

No. You are assuming that a given child with poor and less-educated parents will do the same, academically, regardless of the school the child goes to. But that is not true. A given child with poor, less-educated parents will do better, academically, if it goes to a school with lots of non-poor, more-educated parents than if it goes to a school where all of the other children also have poor, less-educated parents.

Where's the data to support your theory? There are Section 8 kids that go to Winston Churchill High School. Does the data show that they do better than Section 8 students elsewhere in the county? Nope.

[Anonymous]

Agree with you that it's crazy that MCPS rules about test security mean that students never actually get to review their tests and learn from them. At the elementary level, C2.0 has solved this problem by simply ... eliminating the tests. The longer unit tests that have numerical reports on skills mastery (i.e. 3 out of 6 correct in geometry, 5 out of 6 right in computation, etc.) have been eliminated in favor of "ongoing" assessment by the teacher which can mean anything from the teacher walking around the classroom looking to see if he/she thinks the student "gets it" to short 1-2 question exercises on paper.
/quote]

+1

I would also add that in addition to C2.0 eliminating tests . . . MCPS has also (essentially) eliminated for all intents and purposes grading that conveys any information - at least through 5th grade.

Example: my DD reads well above grade level. She has a deep/rich understanding of texts and meaning. On standardized testing, she tests well above grade level for reading comprehension. On her first report card last year, she received a "P" for reading comprehension. I asked her teacher why "P" and not "ES" considering that both standardized testing and the teacher's own oral assessment conveyed to me (and quite frankly what I know myself because I know my daughter) that she was certainly exceeding the grade-level standard in this area, and was told that "ES" was not handed out simply for being above the grade-level standard. "ES" (Exceeds Standard) is given out for something "exceptional" (whatever that might be).

In her 3rd report card of the year, DD received an "I" for reading comprehension (the only "I" on the entire report card). This really made no sense to me, and I asked the teacher about it. She told me that this was due to my DD not completing graded classwork. It turns out that there were 2 pieces of graded classwork (as opposed to other classwork that is not graded, merely marked with a check mark rather than an I/P/ES grade). I had never seen the graded classwork since it didn't come home from school until after the report card came out (this was apparently due to distribution problems with the Friday folder). Of course, this graded classwork was not called a "test" and I'm sure appeared to my DD just like any other worksheet/classwork that she got on any other day. But apparently not completing the graded classwork was reason enough to get an "I" in reading comprehension.

So what do DD's grades tell me? Absolutely nothing. I know, and her teacher knows, that she reads & comprehends well above grade level. But this is not at all apparent from the report card (which has no free text option at all for the teacher to provide any comment whatsoever). What is the grading policy telling DD? Not much. If she exceeds the grade-level standard, she gets a P. If she barely meets the grade-level standard, she gets a P.

About the only thing DD could "learn" from this experience is that any piece of classwork - whether it's called a test or not - might in fact be a test, and therefore if she doesn't complete it she might (or might not) receive an I.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That sounds insane that tests and quizzes do not go home. Do FCPS do it that way too?

Agree with you that it's crazy that MCPS rules about test security mean that students never actually get to review their tests and learn from them. At the elementary level, C2.0 has solved this problem by simply ... eliminating the tests. The longer unit tests that have numerical reports on skills mastery (i.e. 3 out of 6 correct in geometry, 5 out of 6 right in computation, etc.) have been eliminated in favor of "ongoing" assessment by the teacher which can mean anything from the teacher walking around the classroom looking to see if he/she thinks the student "gets it" to short 1-2 question exercises on paper.

BUT, parents and students have a RIGHT to see these "secure exams" under the federal "Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act" (aka FERPA). You may have to sign a non-disclosure form, and you might have to go to the school to see the test in the presence of a teacher or administrator, but you have a right to see the test, the score sheet, test booklet, etc. I have made these kinds of requests a number of times. Sometimes teachers comply right away on the basis of the first oral request. Sometimes teachers say they "can't" or that the test is "secure" so it can't be shared. At that point, I have always been successful after a polite letter in writing to the principal citing FERPA and suggesting that someone at MCPS testing be contacted if there is any doubt about the request.

Have you been able to see ALL of the secured documents for your child? The average child has about 50. If your answer is yes, then do you work fulltime and how were you able to take off so much time from work just to exercise your right to see the documents.

The current barriers to seeing the "secured" documents are similar to voting barriers to minorities in the1960's. You have a right but your right is only as good as your ability to exercise it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Where's the data to support your theory? There are Section 8 kids that go to Winston Churchill High School. Does the data show that they do better than Section 8 students elsewhere in the county? Nope.

And you know this how, exactly? You've looked at their test scores? You've done a study?

Not to mention the numbers of those "Section 8" kidsl. 2012-2013 enrollment at Churchill was 2,092. The FARMS rate was less than or equal to 5%. Let's be generous and set it at 5%. That means that there were, at most, 104 kids on FARMS in the whole school. Now let's further assume that it was 5% for each grade. So that's maybe 29 9th graders, 24 10th graders, 27 11th graders, and 26 12th graders. But sure, let's generalize from what you think you know about those 24-29 kids per grade.

And -- since the Washington Post opinion piece is also about housing segregation -- I assume that the "Section 8" kids at Churchill you're talking about are from Scotland, which is a black community that has been there since the Civil War. Their grandparents received a segregated education right here in Montgomery County. And apparently the parents of Churchill HS students just purely cannot stand it that their kids are zoned to the same high school as 100 or so poor black kids whose families have lived in the area for 150 years longer than they have.

[Anonymous]

People are conflating two issues here. One issue is economic segregation, i.e. some schools having 2% poor kids and some schools having 90%. Another issue is whether to have ability tracking and in what grades. I think it's fair to say some people support trying to even out the economic segregation in the schools in the county, but also believe in ability tracking. Those are separate issues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MCPS isn't so great because of the barriers to education all children face. Children with highly educated parents and whose parents have the means to supplement where the school system lacks in instruction do have a huge advantage over children with limited resources. Your can shuffle the kids around, bus them here and there, but the socio-economic barrier will still be there. The numbers will just be smoothed out per school populations.

No. You are assuming that a given child with poor and less-educated parents will do the same, academically, regardless of the school the child goes to. But that is not true. A given child with poor, less-educated parents will do better, academically, if it goes to a school with lots of non-poor, more-educated parents than if it goes to a school where all of the other children also have poor, less-educated parents.[/quote]

Aaah...because maybe the "non-poor more-educated parent" will adopt this child and take him home?

Did not know "Brangelina" were MoCo residents!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MCPS isn't so great because of the barriers to education all children face. Children with highly educated parents and whose parents have the means to supplement where the school system lacks in instruction do have a huge advantage over children with limited resources. Your can shuffle the kids around, bus them here and there, but the socio-economic barrier will still be there. The numbers will just be smoothed out per school populations.

No. You are assuming that a given child with poor and less-educated parents will do the same, academically, regardless of the school the child goes to. But that is not true. A given child with poor, less-educated parents will do better, academically, if it goes to a school with lots of non-poor, more-educated parents than if it goes to a school where all of the other children also have poor, less-educated parents.

Aaah...because maybe the "non-poor more-educated parent" will adopt this child and take him home?

Did not know "Brangelina" were MoCo residents!

[Anonymous]

You know, I think it's kind of astonishing.

On the one hand, poor people have only themselves to blame. If they only buckled down and applied themselves, starting in childhood, they could make something of themselves.

On the other hand, children of poor parents are doomed. The only thing that can better their condition is adoption by non-poor parents.

Doesn't the cognitive dissonance hurt?

[Anonymous]

I am sure there are at least a handful of schools across this mighty country, that have similar population with similar socioeconomic backgrounds as the "poor performing" schools in MoCo, that are doing very well.

Find out what those schools are doing right and implement that strictly in the "poor performing" schools here. If it means longer school hours, extra days of instruction, coaching, tutoring etc. - do that. And then see if that works. The only thing they should have in common with the way MCPS schools work is the curriculum, the staff and the facilities.

No need to touch the "W" schools or other schools that work well in MCPS. Do not mess with what is not broken.