When will Private Schools' bubble burst ?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:One poster is hovering on this thread repeatedly, and falsely claiming, that NW DC privates do not take in 40 million a year in revenue. Every time he/she posts he under-reports either the enrollment ( under-reports by say 500 students) or under-reports tuition ( ignores that this year every school hiked tuition 4-6 % again, just like they did the year before and the year before , and the year before. My point is: if this were any other business, would not the consumer balk at the price of the product DOUBLING in 6 years ? Just where , where, is the 40 million in annual revenue going ? where?

Keep in mind, these figures are based on LAST YEARS Tuition, and next year it will be $2,000- $3,000 more at every school.

Sidwell: Enrollment( from their website) : 1,075 X tuition $35,000 ( last years figure)= 37 million in tuition revenue alone ( before we get to capital campaign, annual fund)

GDS: Enrollment( from their website) : 1,075X tuition $35,000( last years figure)=37 million in tuition revenue alone ( hey, any GDS parents know what their cc raised this year?)

Cathedral Schools: Enrollment( from their website) : 1,150 studentsX $37,000( last year)=42 million in tuition revenue alone( ? capital campaign/? annual fund)

WIS: Enrollment( 850)X $32,000= 27 million in tuition revenue alone ( ? capital campaign)

All of these schools claim non-profit status. So, where do these amazing profits go ? teacher salaries ? Anyone talk to any teachers lately ?

seriously, why has tuition quintupled in last 20 years and doubled in the last 6 years? where the heck is all that money going ? Capital campaigns have paid for the building improvements and IT additions, so THAT is not where money is going.

Just one example of why your posts lack credibility: the three Cathedral schools (Beauvoir, St. Albans, and NCS) all function separately with separate budgets, development, and faculty and staff (with some minor shared "back office" FTEs under the umbrella of the Cathedral).

Moreover, for the "tuition revenue along" figures you cite, you ignore financial aid. St. Albans alone, with enrollment of 575, gives $4 million in financial aid -- your aggregate figure ignores that, let alone the financial aid awarded by NCS and Beauvoir. Sidwell Friends School gives over $6 million annually in financial aid (http://www.sidwell.edu/about_sfs/index.aspx).

You are financially illiterate, and I've wasted too much time already trying to give factual answers to your off-base assertions.

Again, I agree that independent schools in this area are charging too much and that the model is unsustainable. I just choose to be rational and data-based in my analysis of the issue. (You . . . not so much.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:23:53, I'm not going to try to argue with you point by point. I gave you a long list of expense categories and you appear to reject it in total. I wouldn't say I'm naive -- I happen to think the area independents have too many FTE positions that are not crucial to their core missions -- but I do listen, ask questions, and pay attention to the answers.

Your contention that schools in this area have $40 million in gross revenue or routinely raise $10-$20 million a year is just silly, honestly, as is your insistence that the average independent school has something like 900-1000 students. The bigger K-12s may be in that range (Sidwell, GDS), but many schools are closer to 500 (St. Albans, NCS, Georgetown Prep, Georgetown Visitation, St. Andrews) and quite a few others (such as Landon, Holton, Bullis, Maret) are between 600-650 students.

I don't disagree with the bottom line point that tuition costs are too high and have to be corralled, and that schools need to make hard choices to do that, but your "40 million a year in revenue" language will make it impossible for anyone to ever take YOU, specifically, seriously.

LOL. you prove by your need to repost each time I do, that you , in fact, take this information being posted VERY seriously. It is accurate and you know it.

Is your only come back to falsify the facts until you are called out and to engage in ad hominem attacks. You are just bringing MORE attention to the issue.

Okay, first of all, there are multiple posters who are responding to you. (I'm not the poster who is seeking to have you name the school that charges $40,000, for example.) I do not know how you can keep saying that $40 million a year in revenue is not only "accurate" but that "I know it." I've been very specific and listed nine schools with enrollment under 650 -- not one of those schools has revenue anywhere near $40 million per year. Your statements about development also lack any sort of basis in fact.

I will give a couple of very specific examples, with sourcing, where available. First, let's look at Bullis School:

1. Bullis has a stated enrollment of 645 (http://www.bullis.org/admissions/bullis-at-a-glance/index.aspx). Their tuition in 2013 will range from $31,600 - $35,000, depending upon grade (http://www.bullis.org/admissions/tuition-fees/index.aspx).
2. Total revenue from tuition, ROUNDING UP to the highest tuition figure ($35,000) for all students and NOT INCLUDING FINANCIAL AID, would be $22.575 million.
3. Bullis averages approximately $900,000 in Annual Giving, as they announce in their own magazine (http://www.bullis.org/admissions/tuition-fees/index.aspx).
4. Bullis has an endowment of approximately $9 million, as they announce in their magazine (http://issuu.com/bullisschool/docs/bullis_magazine_fall_2011_-_final_with_web_caption). A 5% draw from that endowment would yield $450,000 in revenue.
5. Total annual revenue, before financial aid is subtracted, is therefore approximately $24,000,000. (It is reasonable to assume about $1-2 million in financial aid, so the real number would be $22-23 million).

In order to meet your "40 million in yearly revenue" figure, you are saying that this school with annual giving under $1 million and an endowment under $10 million raises $17-18 million in capital contributions each year. Obviously, that is not the case.

Let's take the case of a "big three" school, St. Albans.

1. Enrollment of 575 students, at $37,000 in tuition for 2012-2013. Total potential tuition revenue: $21.3 million
2. Financial aid to 28% of students (as per St. Albans website) with the average award of $25,000, giving a financial aid total of $4 million. (http://www.stalbansschool.org/page.aspx?pid=2722)
3. Thus, the net tuition revenue is $17.3 million.
4. St. Albans has a reported endowment of $45 million (http://www.boardingschoolreview.com/school_ov/school_id/512). A 5% draw on that is $2.25 million.
5. St. Albans raises about $2.15 in annual giving each year (see their website for most recently announced total: http://www.stalbansschool.org/page.aspx?pid=2791)
6. Total annual revenue, including financial aid, comes to about $21.65 million.

So, according to your assertions, St. Albans is raising $18 million every year in capital gifts. However, according to their most recent development report on their website, they raised approximately $4.1 million in capital gifts in the most recent calendar year. (http://www.stalbansschool.org/page.aspx?pid=2791)

Even STA's largest capital campaign in its history, which ranged in length from 5-7 years, raised $67 million in capital gifts (the announced $82 million total includes $15 million in annual giving, which suggests that the campaign ran a total of 7 years given the $2 million average annual giving). That capital campaign was not business as usual for St. Albans (as you can see given this year's $4 million in capital gifts after the end of their biggest capital campaign ever), but even if you did add on $10 million in capital gifts, that would still put the revenue at $31 million in the highest capital fundraising year (and they used $44million of that capital campaign to build a building -- so you can't just dip into that extra capital money to pay the ordinary bills).

I've given you two examples, with sourcing. I'm not sure why it is so hard for you to back off your "$40 million in annual revenue" claim, honestly.

I'm not 12:39 (I gave the Bullis/St. Albans examples), but I appreciate someone else providing factual data. Thanks for the links to the 990s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One poster is hovering on this thread repeatedly, and falsely claiming, that NW DC privates do not take in 40 million a year in revenue. Every time he/she posts he under-reports either the enrollment ( under-reports by say 500 students) or under-reports tuition ( ignores that this year every school hiked tuition 4-6 % again, just like they did the year before and the year before , and the year before. My point is: if this were any other business, would not the consumer balk at the price of the product DOUBLING in 6 years ? Just where , where, is the 40 million in annual revenue going ? where?

Keep in mind, these figures are based on LAST YEARS Tuition, and next year it will be $2,000- $3,000 more at every school.

Sidwell: Enrollment( from their website) : 1,075 X tuition $35,000 ( last years figure)= 37 million in tuition revenue alone ( before we get to capital campaign, annual fund)

GDS: Enrollment( from their website) : 1,075X tuition $35,000( last years figure)=37 million in tuition revenue alone ( hey, any GDS parents know what their cc raised this year?)

Cathedral Schools: Enrollment( from their website) : 1,150 studentsX $37,000( last year)=42 million in tuition revenue alone( ? capital campaign/? annual fund)

WIS: Enrollment( 850)X $32,000= 27 million in tuition revenue alone ( ? capital campaign)

All of these schools claim non-profit status. So, where do these amazing profits go ? teacher salaries ? Anyone talk to any teachers lately ?

seriously, why has tuition quintupled in last 20 years and doubled in the last 6 years? where the heck is all that money going ? Capital campaigns have paid for the building improvements and IT additions, so THAT is not where money is going.

Good god, you are tiresome. If you want to know where the money's going, just look at the 990s. You were told that several pages ago. Yet you whine and whine and whine, but you refuse to do even an ounce of work to find the answers you seek.

Here are 990s for GDS, Maret, and WIS. Each school has expenses about equal to its revenue. If you look at the detailed expense breakdowns, you'll see that for each school, about 50% of the expenses are for salaries, about 10-15% for grants and assistance (ie, financial aid), about 10-15% are for things like payroll taxes, 401k contributions, and employee benefits. The rest is for assorted boring stuff like accounting and legal fees, interest on debt, office expenses, insurance, depreciation, and tuition discounts. It's as if you think the money's going to buy cocaine and firearms for Nicaraugua. Reality is far less interesting than your conspiracy theories.
http://990s.foundationcenter.org/990_pdf_archive/530/530211355/530211355_201006_990.pdf
http://990s.foundationcenter.org/990_pdf_archive/530/530204701/530204701_201106_990.pdf
http://990s.foundationcenter.org/990_pdf_archive/520/520822077/520822077_201006_990.pdf

If you'd like to compare these to a public school budget, I've even dug up the MCPS budget for you. It seems to be an increase of 2.3% over the prior year. You can read all about how MCPS saved $43m by opting not to contribute to the Retiree Health Trust Fund, and saved another $9m by eliminating certain textbooks. Quick math suggests MCPS is spending about $14.9k per student ($2.22 billion for 149k students).
http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/about/

I tried to find the DCPS budget for you, but DCPS does a better job hiding its actual numbers than many of the private schools. I find this (http://dcps.dc.gov/DCPS/About+DCPS/Budget+and+Finance), but couldn't find a clear statement of expenses. The Wiki page for DCPS says its budget is $1.22 billion for 44,000 students (a staggering $28k per student!). But I also see several news articles indicating the DCPS budget is actually just under $2 billion, which if true, means DCPS is spending $45k per student per year. I don't know about you, but if I were to suspect anyone of blowing their budget on cocaine and firearms, I'd look at DCPS first!

Please do some research before posting again.

Great post -- informative and witty to boot. Thanks.

[Anonymous]

the 990's posted are 5 years old. They don't inform anyone of what is going on today. Tuition has nearly doubled since the period those old 990's reflect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One poster is hovering on this thread repeatedly, and falsely claiming, that NW DC privates do not take in 40 million a year in revenue. Every time he/she posts he under-reports either the enrollment ( under-reports by say 500 students) or under-reports tuition ( ignores that this year every school hiked tuition 4-6 % again, just like they did the year before and the year before , and the year before. My point is: if this were any other business, would not the consumer balk at the price of the product DOUBLING in 6 years ? Just where , where, is the 40 million in annual revenue going ? where?

Keep in mind, these figures are based on LAST YEARS Tuition, and next year it will be $2,000- $3,000 more at every school.

Sidwell: Enrollment( from their website) : 1,075 X tuition $35,000 ( last years figure)= 37 million in tuition revenue alone ( before we get to capital campaign, annual fund)

GDS: Enrollment( from their website) : 1,075X tuition $35,000( last years figure)=37 million in tuition revenue alone ( hey, any GDS parents know what their cc raised this year?)

Cathedral Schools: Enrollment( from their website) : 1,150 studentsX $37,000( last year)=42 million in tuition revenue alone( ? capital campaign/? annual fund)

WIS: Enrollment( 850)X $32,000= 27 million in tuition revenue alone ( ? capital campaign)

All of these schools claim non-profit status. So, where do these amazing profits go ? teacher salaries ? Anyone talk to any teachers lately ?

seriously, why has tuition quintupled in last 20 years and doubled in the last 6 years? where the heck is all that money going ? Capital campaigns have paid for the building improvements and IT additions, so THAT is not where money is going.

Just one example of why your posts lack credibility: the three Cathedral schools (Beauvoir, St. Albans, and NCS) all function separately with separate budgets, development, and faculty and staff (with some minor shared "back office" FTEs under the umbrella of the Cathedral).

Moreover, for the "tuition revenue along" figures you cite, you ignore financial aid. St. Albans alone, with enrollment of 575, gives $4 million in financial aid -- your aggregate figure ignores that, let alone the financial aid awarded by NCS and Beauvoir. Sidwell Friends School gives over $6 million annually in financial aid (http://www.sidwell.edu/about_sfs/index.aspx).

You are financially illiterate, and I've wasted too much time already trying to give factual answers to your off-base assertions.

Again, I agree that independent schools in this area are charging too much and that the model is unsustainable. I just choose to be rational and data-based in my analysis of the issue. (You . . . not so much.)

The Cathedral schools share a common board, whether its one lump or two divisions is 6 of one, half dozen of another. Why are you hovering on this thread, and engaging in ad hominem attacks, posting 990's form 5-6 years ago and trying to pass them off as if they are relevant to today's budgets at these schools. Why so nasty and defensive? Every parent with a child in Private schools is affected by being gouged. Why are you trying soooo hard to bully me( posting round the clock, including at 1 AM, jesus). What is your interest in this ?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Does no one else out there find it odd that every school in town has claimed that it needs to nearly double it's tuition over past 6 years? If any company doubled its operating expenses while mostly keeping its product unchanged, wouldn't a good business person ask what ALL that increased revenue was going towards?

Yes... I went to NCS in the 90's when it was $14k a year. I was astounded to learn how much it is now; there is no way I could afford to send my daughter there. I find it quite disgusting, actually.

Just did an inflation calculator, $14,000 in 1992 was the equivalent of $23,000 in 2012. Tuition has increased faster than inflation, but maybe not as much as you think.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: the 990's posted are 5 years old. They don't inform anyone of what is going on today. Tuition has nearly doubled since the period those old 990's reflect.

Someone keeps posting this. Which of these schools charged only $16,000 five years ago?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:12:39 has not posted the actual 990's for GDS,Maret, and WIS and he knows it. What he has posted is 4 years old or more. (Peter Branch retired several years ago). Tuition has been hiked at least 24% since these 990's submitted. Lets see the trend with the old 990's to now, and why the 24% increase in tuition.

PP, why did you deliberately post 990's that were 5 years old ?

I posted the most current ones available. You should learn to do your own research. Better yet, you should thank me for helping you.

I think your hostility is off putting and misplaced. Your ad hominem attacks are un called for and the data you posted ( the 5-6 year old 990's) sheds about zero light on what is going on in these schools today. You didn't do anyone a service. In fact, you tried to pass off 5 year out of date financial figures as current ones knowing that tuition has nearly doubled in the those same last 6 years. That's a disservice, not a service.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One poster is hovering on this thread repeatedly, and falsely claiming, that NW DC privates do not take in 40 million a year in revenue. Every time he/she posts he under-reports either the enrollment ( under-reports by say 500 students) or under-reports tuition ( ignores that this year every school hiked tuition 4-6 % again, just like they did the year before and the year before , and the year before. My point is: if this were any other business, would not the consumer balk at the price of the product DOUBLING in 6 years ? Just where , where, is the 40 million in annual revenue going ? where?

Keep in mind, these figures are based on LAST YEARS Tuition, and next year it will be $2,000- $3,000 more at every school.

Sidwell: Enrollment( from their website) : 1,075 X tuition $35,000 ( last years figure)= 37 million in tuition revenue alone ( before we get to capital campaign, annual fund)

GDS: Enrollment( from their website) : 1,075X tuition $35,000( last years figure)=37 million in tuition revenue alone ( hey, any GDS parents know what their cc raised this year?)

Cathedral Schools: Enrollment( from their website) : 1,150 studentsX $37,000( last year)=42 million in tuition revenue alone( ? capital campaign/? annual fund)

WIS: Enrollment( 850)X $32,000= 27 million in tuition revenue alone ( ? capital campaign)

All of these schools claim non-profit status. So, where do these amazing profits go ? teacher salaries ? Anyone talk to any teachers lately ?

seriously, why has tuition quintupled in last 20 years and doubled in the last 6 years? where the heck is all that money going ? Capital campaigns have paid for the building improvements and IT additions, so THAT is not where money is going.

Just one example of why your posts lack credibility: the three Cathedral schools (Beauvoir, St. Albans, and NCS) all function separately with separate budgets, development, and faculty and staff (with some minor shared "back office" FTEs under the umbrella of the Cathedral).

Moreover, for the "tuition revenue along" figures you cite, you ignore financial aid. St. Albans alone, with enrollment of 575, gives $4 million in financial aid -- your aggregate figure ignores that, let alone the financial aid awarded by NCS and Beauvoir. Sidwell Friends School gives over $6 million annually in financial aid (http://www.sidwell.edu/about_sfs/index.aspx).

You are financially illiterate, and I've wasted too much time already trying to give factual answers to your off-base assertions.

Again, I agree that independent schools in this area are charging too much and that the model is unsustainable. I just choose to be rational and data-based in my analysis of the issue. (You . . . not so much.)

The Cathedral schools share a common board, whether its one lump or two divisions is 6 of one, half dozen of another. Why are you hovering on this thread, and engaging in ad hominem attacks, posting 990's form 5-6 years ago and trying to pass them off as if they are relevant to today's budgets at these schools. Why so nasty and defensive? Every parent with a child in Private schools is affected by being gouged. Why are you trying soooo hard to bully me( posting round the clock, including at 1 AM, jesus). What is your interest in this ?

1. You are wrong about the Cathedral schools. Each of the three schools has its own board of trustees. There is a board for the foundation that oversees the Cathedral, but each school has full authority to (and does) draft its own budget.

2. I did not post the 990s. There are multiple posters who have tried to give you good information, which you ignore. You list the two biggest area schools as if they are typical of the size of DC independents; try to argue that the three Cathedral schools, which budget, fundraise, hire, and administer wholly separately, are one entity; and ignore every link or citation to schools significantly smaller than GDS/Sidwell or that have tuitions under $40,000; and you act as if financial aid does not exist. You then characterize every criticism of the flaws in your reasoning as bullying or ad hominem attacks. You post nothing to back up your view that all the schools have $40,000,000 per year in revenue.

Nobody can argue with an opinion, which you are stating, that schools cost too much and are not sustainable (and many are agreeing in large part). But they can disagree with your demonstrably wrong facts and analysis. I shouldn't waste my time continuing to post -- you clearly don't want to exchange ideas or have a meaningful discussion -- but I keep giving in when I see your totally incorrect factual assertions. (And why am I up late? NCAA basketball, of course.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: the 990's posted are 5 years old. They don't inform anyone of what is going on today. Tuition has nearly doubled since the period those old 990's reflect.

Someone keeps posting this. Which of these schools charged only $16,000 five years ago?

In 2006-2007 the St. Albans tuition was $26,000. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/02/AR2006040201369.html This upcoming year, 7 years later, it will be $37,000, for an increase of $11,000 over a seven-year period.

Tuition in 2008 at Sidwell Friends was $29,400 for the Upper School. This year it was $34,400, for an increase of $5000 over four years.

Under Ad Hominem Hover McRant's argument, tuition at St. Albans should be over $52,000 next year, and tuition at Sidwell something like $50,000.

I don't know why he/she does not use the revolutionary tool called "Google" before making statements so clearly provably false. It undercuts her/his main point (which many agree with), which is that the rates of increase, if not as Brobdingnagian as she/he claims, are not sustainable in the long haul.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:12:39 has not posted the actual 990's for GDS,Maret, and WIS and he knows it. What he has posted is 4 years old or more. (Peter Branch retired several years ago). Tuition has been hiked at least 24% since these 990's submitted. Lets see the trend with the old 990's to now, and why the 24% increase in tuition.

PP, why did you deliberately post 990's that were 5 years old ?

I realized that I was taking at face value your assertion that the 990s were variously "4 years old or more," "5 years old," and "5-6 years old." That was a mistake. Upon actually reading them, it turns out the Maret and WIS 990s are from three years ago (fiscal year ending June 2010) and the GDS 990 is from 2 years ago (fiscal year ending 2011). (I'm sure I could easily find evidence to show that your statement that tuition has risen by 24% in three years at Maret/WIS and two years at GDS, but the basketball games are over so I'm calling it a night.)

Ta.

[Anonymous]

We have 2 kids in mid tier privates with HHI of 400K. Applied and got accepted at two of the Cathedral schools. Ended up declining. Just could not justify the 40k cost per DC versus under 30k we pay at our current independents. Don't let anyone kid you, 1st year cost is 40K when you sum up all the miscellaneous fees. We thought long and hard about this decision and even paid a college consultant to discuss the pros and cons for older DC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: the 990's posted are 5 years old. They don't inform anyone of what is going on today. Tuition has nearly doubled since the period those old 990's reflect.

... if not as [i]Brobdingnagian[/i] as she/he claims, are not sustainable in the long haul.

cool. I learned a new word. Kinda hard to pronounce though; and I wonder how many people would understand what it means.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: the 990's posted are 5 years old. They don't inform anyone of what is going on today. Tuition has nearly doubled since the period those old 990's reflect.

... if not as [i]Brobdingnagian[/i] as she/he claims, are not sustainable in the long haul.

cool. I learned a new word. Kinda hard to pronounce though; and I wonder how many people would understand what it means.

Pretty much anyone who ever read Jonathan Swift.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: the 990's posted are 5 years old. They don't inform anyone of what is going on today. Tuition has nearly doubled since the period those old 990's reflect.

Someone keeps posting this. Which of these schools charged only $16,000 five years ago?

In 2006-2007 the St. Albans tuition was $26,000. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/02/AR2006040201369.html This upcoming year, 7 years later, it will be $37,000, for an increase of $11,000 over a seven-year period.

Tuition in 2008 at Sidwell Friends was $29,400 for the Upper School. This year it was $34,400, for an increase of $5000 over four years.

Under Ad Hominem Hover McRant's argument, tuition at St. Albans should be over $52,000 next year, and tuition at Sidwell something like $50,000.

I don't know why he/she does not use the revolutionary tool called "Google" before making statements so clearly provably false. It undercuts her/his main point (which many agree with), which is that the rates of increase, if not as Brobdingnagian as she/he claims, are not sustainable in the long haul.

Lol, that's a great catch. Funny how, as that poster seemed to get more invested, the 990s got older and older.