When will Private Schools' bubble burst ?

[Anonymous]

different poster -- I don't CARE where anyone's kid goes to school and don't believe this debate hinges upon proving whether a person is an illegal immigrant or allowed the benefits of this discussion as a legal citizen in this forum.

This is very important because the middle class is getting squeezed out and into the public school system. The private schools receive tax benefits so that make this forum open to anyone who pays taxes and anyone who pays tuition. Stop trying to distract readers and the main contributors. This is important to many of us!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thank you. The PP has no dog in this fight yet hovers on this thread, posts distortions and tries to pass them off as fact( such as posting 990's that were 5-6 years old as if they were reflective of current situation or his recent post in which he culls data from the one school in town that is absolutely rolling in it, and tries to convince us all that Sidwell 's financial picture is "typical" LOL.

When he is called out on these distortions, he engages in ad homonym attacks

PP, you do NOT have a kid in private so you have NO IDEA the kind of strain this ever sky rocketing hiking of tuition is causing family's who do. Take your egoism elsewhere.

I am honestly curious, why do you keep repeating that the 990s are 5-6 years old when they are available by link and they are from 2010-2011 (two and three years ago)? If you think others are lying to you about the age of the 990s, why would you not check yourself? If you haven't checked, why not, when others have contradicted your repeated assertions that those 990s are 5-6 years old? If you have checked them, why repeat an intentional falsehood? Is it because you assume (probably correctly) that most people won't click on the link or won't notice the date and will therefore just accept your inaccurate characterization?

What's going on? It's really odd to keep saying things from 2010 and 2011 are "5-6 years old" when that is verifiably untrue.

[Anonymous]

This is a knife fight in a phone booth. The thread has over 4,000 views for a reason.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP, you do NOT have a kid in private so you have NO IDEA the kind of strain this ever sky rocketing hiking of tuition is causing family's who do. Take your egoism elsewhere.

I am honestly curious, why do you keep repeating that the 990s are 5-6 years old when they are available by link and they are from 2010-2011 (two and three years ago)? If you think others are lying to you about the age of the 990s, why would you not check yourself? If you haven't checked, why not, when others have contradicted your repeated assertions that those 990s are 5-6 years old? If you have checked them, why repeat an intentional falsehood? Is it because you assume (probably correctly) that most people won't click on the link or won't notice the date and will therefore just accept your inaccurate characterization?

What's going on? It's really odd to keep saying things from 2010 and 2011 are "5-6 years old" when that is verifiably untrue.

Totally agree, PP. Here, I'll even make the search for 990s easier. Here is the link to where 990s are all publicly available -- http://foundationcenter.org/findfunders/990finder/

Note that it can often take about 12 months from the close of a financial reporting period before the 990 is posted online. So for example with Maret, the 990 for the 7/2010-6/2011 financial reporting period was probably posted around June 2012. That means the 990 for the 7/2011-6/2012 reporting period will probably be posted in the next 3-4 months. The one listed is the most recent one available, and it covered operations ending about 20 months ago.

[Anonymous]

17:45 again. If OP will just identify a school where the tuition has doubled in the past 6 years, then we call can look at the school's 990, to see exactly where the money is going.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thank you. The PP has no dog in this fight yet hovers on this thread, posts distortions and tries to pass them off as fact( such as posting 990's that were 5-6 years old as if they were reflective of current situation or his recent post in which he culls data from the one school in town that is absolutely rolling in it, and tries to convince us all that Sidwell 's financial picture is "typical" LOL.

When he is called out on these distortions, he engages in ad homonym attacks

PP, you do NOT have a kid in private so you have NO IDEA the kind of strain this ever sky rocketing hiking of tuition is causing family's who do. Take your egoism elsewhere.

I am honestly curious, why do you keep repeating that the 990s are 5-6 years old when they are available by link and they are from 2010-2011 (two and three years ago)? If you think others are lying to you about the age of the 990s, why would you not check yourself? If you haven't checked, why not, when others have contradicted your repeated assertions that those 990s are 5-6 years old? If you have checked them, why repeat an intentional falsehood? Is it because you assume (probably correctly) that most people won't click on the link or won't notice the date and will therefore just accept your inaccurate characterization?

What's going on? It's really odd to keep saying things from 2010 and 2011 are "5-6 years old" when that is verifiably untrue.

What you are engaging in ( masquerading old data as current) and trying to take extreme exceptions and exhibiting them as the rule is intellectually dishonest.

You posted the 990 's of three schools: GDS, WIS and Maret. You did so without qualaifier as if they were current.

Anyone who has a child in a Big 3 school who opens these docs will see right away that they are several years old. Its blatantly obvious to any and all of us who have kids in these schools and know the Admin well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Someone keeps posting this. Which of these schools charged only $16,000 five years ago?

Again your deliberately posting the lowest tuition you can find ( half of 32K) to try to minimize the impact tuitions for 2013-2014 of $ 39,750 are having on families ( not just leaving schools their kids love, but impacting the quality of their family life as UMC parents work more and more to be able to foot such an outrageous bill ( 120K for 3 kids in elementary school).

Read the thread, several NCS alums contributed as just one example. Yes, tuition has nearly doubled in last 6 years, at many schools. repeating it hasn't and comparing the lowest tuition you can find on line ( last year's number to boot) doesn't change that.

Of course, every parent who has had a kid in private school for at leats 10 years knows this is true. Your denying it over and over does not make it untrue.

Actually, I asked this question. I think this is the only thing I posted on this thread. Further, I didn't post the "lowest tuition I could find." My child is at his fourth year at a private school and I know for a fact that their tuition has not come close to doubling over the past five years. I actually took the $32,000 figure someone cited for a big three (which is about $6,000 more than we pay) and took half of it. My dc's school does charge more for the upper school, but those % increases have been about the same. I believe others have posted tuition #s from some of the big three from five years ago and proven that they haven't "doubled."

So, I'll rephrase the question: Which of these schools that are charging $39,750 now charged $20,000 five years ago? (Apples to apples -- same upper school to upper school, for example?)

There are tuition increases, but you only harm your own credibility by repeating claims that are demonstrably false.

[Anonymous]

To open the discussion for the majority of viewers/ posters on this thread:

My purpose in posting this thread is to encourage examination of the ever upward spiraling cost of educating our children. If you are a MC or UMC family paying these outrageous tuitions either for Private school or college tuition, feel free to weigh in. To me, it seems out of control.

IMHO, it is worth examining that in the face of ever increasing tuitions, these "non-profit" schools are, in fact, money gathering machines, like no other industry in our current economy. Why is that ? They are businesses that have the ability to make their profits dissapear on paper ( the 990) just by raising the salaries of top admin, such as LOL paying a Head of School for 5-18 year olds a half million a year,( when he has 3 principals below him doing the grunt work) or seeing to it that an investment portfolio shows a loss that balances a gain somewhere else in your 990, or by issuing bonuses to your teachers at the end of the fiscal year and pretending that its because you value them ( not to balance your books), or by aquiring more real estate that will then be part of your school and earn more income. These are all methods by which a "non-profit" can remain so on paper while gouging parents financially. Do these schools REALLY need on average $35,000 to $37,000 a year for each enrolled child ?

Does anyone else ask this question when they are solicited quarterly for donations on top of the $100,000 - $120,000 per family they are paying in tuition. per year ?


No doubt there are drivers: the dismal state of DCPS and the dark side of the competitive nature of the average UMC DC parent who views admission and enrollment into one of these schools as the ticket to success for their kids ( as well as themselves in many cases). Same thing is true when it comes to college. Only then its more based on fear that DC won't "make it" unless you second mortgage you home to pay $60,000 a year to send DC to Boston College, Penn, or Harvard.

How did we get here ? Are we really getting our monies worth out of these schools or are we getting robbed ( or whatever you call being old with no home equity and no retirement savings while private educational institutions you sent your kids to have absorbed all of you net worth during your prime earning years of 35-55)

The question is, are their continued tuition hikes ( I said 4-6% a year), well advised if they are starting to really hurt the bulk of their families. Granted, I am assuming some benevolence here that may be naiive.

Ditto the public and private university system. How did university tuition get to be $60,000 a year so damn fast ? Does this bother anyone? Can anything be done to put a stop to it? Yearly audits by truly independant boards of directors, perhaps ?

Call me a nay sayer, but I think there is a lack of oversight on this private school gravy train. Look at what the bankers did with subprime mortgages when they were left with no one minding the store. (they simply helped themselves)

Consider the fact that Americans born between the year 1980 and 2002 have or are projected to have ( in the case of the latter) 1 Trillion dollars of student loan debt if they complete just four years of college. This 1 Trillion in debt is not being paid down by higher earnings either. In fact, the average 25 year old today is paid less than 20 year sago and spends 63% of their income paying student loan debt, while living at home in their parent's basement. This economic pressure on these young people is such that it is impacting:

home sales ( down 36% in the 20-35 age bracket since the year 2000)
car sales( also down 25-40% in the 20-30 age bracket)

From The Atlantic,

Nine out of 10 Millennials say they eventually want a place they own, according to a recent Fannie Mae survey. But this generation’s path to home­ownership is fraught with obstacles: low pay, low savings, tighter lending standards from banks. Student debt—some $1 trillion in total—stalks many potential buyers as they seek a mortgage (or a car loan). At a minimum, homeownership rates are highly unlikely to soon return to the peaks they hit during the housing bubble.

Yet these private schools and universities just keep charging more and more. Is it justified?

[Anonymous]

It's a good thing your children are not at private school, so none of this applies to you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There have been some very good posts on this thread -- I found the posts talking about MoCo and DC costs thought-provoking.

I do think that, for some of the best known schools, they can probably keep hiking tuitions and their reputations will be enough to fill the seats with the children of the very affluent and about 25% receiving financial aid. However, this is not sustainable for every school. I know a lot of DC lawyer types, even at big firms, who just never got on the private school train -- and the private schools need those lawyers' kids.

I recall reading that one small college (maybe Sewanee?) cut it's tuition by 10% -- I'd like to see a school try something like that (but realize its probably unrealistic). Thoughts for savings (and some are controversial, and maybe some remove the advantages of private schools!), interested in hearing others viewpoints:

--Increase enrollment (tough bc of facility constraints);
--Decrease the size of the faculty (through attrition followed by elimination of the position) by increasing class section size modestly and/or having teachers teach 5 class sections instead of 4 (which is, I think, the norm) (but a teaching load of 80 students may mean, in the humanities for example, a drop in writing assignments which would be a costly side effect);
--Eliminate more of the non-teaching admin jobs (deans and assistant headmasters and division heads should also teach some classes);
--Cap out teaching salaries like the Government GS scale; once you hit a certain level you are limited to COLA increases and not substantive raises each year (this old increase faculty turnover);
--Grandfather out automatic tuition remission for faculty children;
--Eliminate full time positions for things like international programs, environmental, or diversity coordinators, and offer existing faculty a fair stipend to pick up the responsibility
--Moratorium on facility additions/upgrades and do a capital drive to endow more of the financial aid

All of these things pretty clearly would have costs/byproducts. Are there better options out there? Where do people see the real waste or, to be less negative, the non-essential elements that could be cut? Is it just the new facilities?

Anyone have thoughts on the points raised above?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your question is intrusive, the answer is irrelevant to the point, again you fall back on personal attacks. Suffice it to say, that yearly uition hikes are pricing out the mc and umc and, worse, stressing the families who are trying to hold on. Your efforts to attack me personally will not distract me.

So just tell us what tuition was at your child's school for the past 6 years. That way, we all can see how big the hikes you're facing really are. You say tuition doubled in the past six years; I'd like to see the numbers.

Your refusal to provide info is baffling to me.

here is what I said. This is my OP :

03/27/2013 20:38 Subject: When will Private Schools' bubble burst ?
Anonymous

As most people on this forum are keenly aware, Private school tuition has climbed from 24K in 2006 to 35K-40K a year in 2013 ( nearly doubled in the last 6 years) . Many upper middle class families with incomes in 250K to 350K range feel priced out, particularly if they have 3 kids.

No one would dispute that is true. For some weird reason, you choose to distort what I said, to the argue with it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's a good thing your children are not at private school, so none of this applies to you.

are you a teenager ? I ask because I have never met an adult who so readily used baiting as their fall back when they completely failed at reasoned debate.

Calling out schools on unreasonable spending is fair. The problem is across the board at vast majority of schools. I am not going to single my children's school out individually because to do so would not serve the the discussion.

Now, back to the bigger discussion which is pertinent to what 5,000 viewers of this thread....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:different poster -- I don't CARE where anyone's kid goes to school and don't believe this debate hinges upon proving whether a person is an illegal immigrant or allowed the benefits of this discussion as a legal citizen in this forum.

This is very important because the middle class is getting squeezed out and into the public school system. The private schools receive tax benefits so that make this forum open to anyone who pays taxes and anyone who pays tuition. Stop trying to distract readers and the main contributors. This is important to many of us!

This....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:17:45 again. If OP will just identify a school where the tuition has doubled in the past 6 years, then we call can look at the school's 990, to see exactly where the money is going.

This is the OP:
03/27/2013 20:38 Subject: When will Private Schools' bubble burst ?
Anonymous

As most people on this forum are keenly aware, Private school tuition has climbed from 24K in 2006 to 35K-40K a year in 2013 ( nearly doubled in the last 6 years) . Many upper middle class families with incomes in 250K to 350K range feel priced out, particularly if they have 3 kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There have been some very good posts on this thread -- I found the posts talking about MoCo and DC costs thought-provoking.

I do think that, for some of the best known schools, they can probably keep hiking tuitions and their reputations will be enough to fill the seats with the children of the very affluent and about 25% receiving financial aid. However, this is not sustainable for every school. I know a lot of DC lawyer types, even at big firms, who just never got on the private school train -- and the private schools need those lawyers' kids.

I recall reading that one small college (maybe Sewanee?) cut it's tuition by 10% -- I'd like to see a school try something like that (but realize its probably unrealistic). Thoughts for savings (and some are controversial, and maybe some remove the advantages of private schools!), interested in hearing others viewpoints:

--Increase enrollment (tough bc of facility constraints);
--Decrease the size of the faculty (through attrition followed by elimination of the position) by increasing class section size modestly and/or having teachers teach 5 class sections instead of 4 (which is, I think, the norm) (but a teaching load of 80 students may mean, in the humanities for example, a drop in writing assignments which would be a costly side effect);
--Eliminate more of the non-teaching admin jobs (deans and assistant headmasters and division heads should also teach some classes);
--Cap out teaching salaries like the Government GS scale; once you hit a certain level you are limited to COLA increases and not substantive raises each year (this old increase faculty turnover);
--Grandfather out automatic tuition remission for faculty children;
--Eliminate full time positions for things like international programs, environmental, or diversity coordinators, and offer existing faculty a fair stipend to pick up the responsibility
--Moratorium on facility additions/upgrades and do a capital drive to endow more of the financial aid

All of these things pretty clearly would have costs/byproducts. Are there better options out there? Where do people see the real waste or, to be less negative, the non-essential elements that could be cut? Is it just the new facilities?

Anyone have thoughts on the points raised above?

I agree on some things you have cited. I know one school , and I am sure there are others, that has added 5 supplemental admin staff at salaries of 80K or more in the last 4 years alone. The reason: "administrative support in order to meet demands of high maitenance families"

But really, you have to understand that , bottom line, schools do not create a position, then go out and raise tuition or fund raise to pay that person. Its the reverse, they have a pot of money( from numbers are up this year and with our tuition hike... and they say WOW we have some extra money, what do we wish we had.....

Then they go out and spend it, of course they justify very , very well. Remember, these people are educators. What they do is "educate You" as to why this new personnel was needed.