s/o - let's report "pro-life" posts on fetal anomaly threads instead of responding to them

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The anti-choice poster here is trying to pretend that she's just presenting the unbiased facts of how second-trimester abortions proceed. Well, I for one, don't consider the National Right to Life Campaign an unbiased source. The truth is that the medical community has no consensus about when a fetus feels pain. Different studies have shown everything from 18-29 weeks or later - for the release of stress hormones. Whether a fetus has the context to understand that as "pain" is a different question.

But, for instance, when my 22 week old had to undergo surgery while still in the womb - would you have suggested that she be offered anesthesia? Or that I should have forgone lifesaving surgery because she was being "torn apart" without anesthesia?

These questions are complicated, and believe me, women can get all the information they need from, for instance, their genetics counselor without turning to someone like you who is trying to promote an agenda.To pretend that women don't seek information (the information that THEY think is important for their family's decision making) and agonize over these situation shows a profound disrespect for women going through a traumatic event.

Or it shows the highest amount of respect b/c here they are, caring so much that they are consistently facing an upward battle by posting here, repeatedly, and repeatedly, and getting only venom and derision as thanks.

Depends upon how you look at it.

[Anonymous]

16:02 - citations please. Especially for statements like "Fetuses feel pain" (not my 12 week old at the time of abortion, unless you've got medical research doctor's don't) and "large numbers of babies" were born alive and disfigured from saline abortions. Huge bonus points if they don't come from an anti-choice activist site.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The anti-choice poster here is trying to pretend that she's just presenting the unbiased facts of how second-trimester abortions proceed. Well, I for one, don't consider the National Right to Life Campaign an unbiased source. The truth is that the medical community has no consensus about when a fetus feels pain. Different studies have shown everything from 18-29 weeks or later - for the release of stress hormones. Whether a fetus has the context to understand that as "pain" is a different question.

But, for instance, when my 22 week old had to undergo surgery while still in the womb - would you have suggested that she be offered anesthesia? Or that I should have forgone lifesaving surgery because she was being "torn apart" without anesthesia?

These questions are complicated, and believe me, women can get all the information they need from, for instance, their genetics counselor without turning to someone like you who is trying to promote an agenda.To pretend that women don't seek information (the information that THEY think is important for their family's decision making) and agonize over these situation shows a profound disrespect for women going through a traumatic event.

Well there was a NY Times article posted as well. But it doesn't matter who complied the information, what does the information say, and what is the original source? Is So and So saying that fetuses feel pain with nothing to back that up, or is So and So telling you what Dr. McMD and Study McResearch said about fetal pain? You claim to be educated women. I'm sure you can find the original sources if the secondary sources cause seizures for you.

As for your baby, I'm sorry that he or she went through that. But that doesn't mean that they didn't feel it.

"...his tiny patients, many of them preterm infants, were often wheeled out of the ward and into an operating room. He soon learned what to expect on their return. The babies came back in terrible shape....What’s going on in there to make these babies so stressed?” Anand wondered. Breaking with hospital practice, he wrangled permission to follow his patients into the O.R. “That’s when I discovered that the babies were not getting anesthesia,” he recalled recently. Infants undergoing major surgery were receiving only a paralytic to keep them still."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/10/magazine/10Fetal-t.html?_r=1

It's something to consider. Just because you can't process what pain is, it doesn't mean you can't feel it. If you could feel it as a preterm infant, does that mean you CANNOT feel it in the womb if you were in the same age group? I don't know, but it's something to think about before just automatically assuming that fetuses do not feel pain.

[Anonymous]

If you've noticed this post has had a large number of page views and replies. This is what makes the site money. Nobody really looks at those boring posts that are civil and provide useful information. More views = more page views = more money for scum. See those adds? Keep up the controversy gals. Let's add late term abortion to the dialogue. I say the later the better. Discuss.

[Anonymous]

Oops scum = dcum. Typo.

[Anonymous]

The OPer made a totally rational request. The response of the Pro Life supporters was/is totally predictable. The Pro Life supporter's never show an iota of respect for the mother's feelings/wishes. They are always Hell bent on saving the life of of the fetus and have never demonstrated any concern for the mother's well being.
Lesson learned, don't try conduct a rational discussion with a group only capable of operating in send mode, receiving mode is totally inoperative with these zealots

[Anonymous]

Other posters made a totally rational request. The response of the Pro Choice supporters was/is totally predictable. The Pro Choice supporter's never show an iota of respect for the unborn childs feelings/rights. They are always Hell bent on saving the rights of of the mother and have never demonstrated any concern for the unborn child's well being.
Lesson learned, don't try conduct a rational discussion with a group only capable of operating in send mode, receiving mode is totally inoperative with these zealots

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The OPer made a totally rational request. The response of the Pro Life supporters was/is totally predictable. The Pro Life supporter's never show an iota of respect for the mother's feelings/wishes. They are always Hell bent on saving the life of of the fetus and have never demonstrated any concern for the mother's well being.
Lesson learned, don't try conduct a rational discussion with a group only capable of operating in send mode, receiving mode is totally inoperative with these zealots

Agreed pp! And I think it's the same anti- abortion poster who keeps spewing her hate in this thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The anti-choice poster here is trying to pretend that she's just presenting the unbiased facts of how second-trimester abortions proceed. Well, I for one, don't consider the National Right to Life Campaign an unbiased source. The truth is that the medical community has no consensus about when a fetus feels pain. Different studies have shown everything from 18-29 weeks or later - for the release of stress hormones. Whether a fetus has the context to understand that as "pain" is a different question.

But, for instance, when my 22 week old had to undergo surgery while still in the womb - would you have suggested that she be offered anesthesia? Or that I should have forgone lifesaving surgery because she was being "torn apart" without anesthesia?

These questions are complicated, and believe me, women can get all the information they need from, for instance, their genetics counselor without turning to someone like you who is trying to promote an agenda.To pretend that women don't seek information (the information that THEY think is important for their family's decision making) and agonize over these situation shows a profound disrespect for women going through a traumatic event.

Off topic - but they did surgery on you when you were pregnant without any pain medication??? That had to be brutal. Why wouldn't they have given you any pain meds - there are some that are safe during pregnancy. They might also provide pain relief to the fetus.

[Anonymous]

I had meds, but they generally don't cross the placenta, and baby was awake.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The OPer made a totally rational request. The response of the Pro Life supporters was/is totally predictable. The Pro Life supporter's never show an iota of respect for the mother's feelings/wishes. They are always Hell bent on saving the life of of the fetus and have never demonstrated any concern for the mother's well being.
Lesson learned, don't try conduct a rational discussion with a group only capable of operating in send mode, receiving mode is totally inoperative with these zealots

Agreed pp! And I think it's the same anti- abortion poster who keeps spewing her hate in this thread.

There are many of us here who believe abortion to be a terrible ill to both women and their unborn babies. Abortion is not a good of our society, and we work tirelessly to share that message through a variety of channels, with encouragement and assistance for women and their families to choose life. At the same time, we are not condemning or judging, and recognize that there can be deep grief with any type of pregnancy loss. What part of this, specifically, do you believe to be "spewing hate?" Who exactly do you believe we hate? The only negativity in this thread - name calling, derogatory comments, etc. - come from those who support the choice of abortion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:op here - I think this thread neatly dekonstrates why we should have a community norm that termination threads by women wbi have already mads the decision are NOT the place to debate abortion. We can debate it elsewhere on dcum, but not where the woman has made up her mind and is not seeking counsel on that point.

But the OP WAS torn. She had concerns. She had not been offered perinatal hospice. She was worried about the expense and the risks.

A mother who held her child in her arms as she died was called a horrible person. THAT was a mean, brutal thing to say.

She wasn't torn. She had made her decision. She was asking for information on the best way to implement her decision. And, after making this painful decision, she was hammered with a bunch of baseless crap about torturing babies. As the OP noted in a follow-up post, she was fully aware of what this abortion entails. She neither asked for nor was otherwise missing this information. And yet, here it came, twisted to make it as painful and harsh as possible.

You know what I didn't see from the anti-choicers? "Hey, OP, do you need any additional information on alternatives? I can provide it if you do." Nope, just guilt and shock and pain.

It is possible to be anti-choice and not be a douche. Really. I've seen it done. Try it sometime.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:op here - I think this thread neatly dekonstrates why we should have a community norm that termination threads by women wbi have already mads the decision are NOT the place to debate abortion. We can debate it elsewhere on dcum, but not where the woman has made up her mind and is not seeking counsel on that point.

But the OP WAS torn. She had concerns. She had not been offered perinatal hospice. She was worried about the expense and the risks.

A mother who held her child in her arms as she died was called a horrible person. THAT was a mean, brutal thing to say.

She wasn't torn. She had made her decision. She was asking for information on the best way to implement her decision. And, after making this painful decision, she was hammered with a bunch of baseless crap about torturing babies. As the OP noted in a follow-up post, she was fully aware of what this abortion entails. She neither asked for nor was otherwise missing this information. And yet, here it came, twisted to make it as painful and harsh as possible.

You know what I didn't see from the anti-choicers? "Hey, OP, do you need any additional information on alternatives? I can provide it if you do." Nope, just guilt and shock and pain.

It is possible to be anti-choice and not be a douche. Really. I've seen it done. Try it sometime.

She wasn't hammered, it was certainly not baseless information, and no one said "torture" except for you. Do you think a late term abortion is torturous for the fetus? I don't know, perhaps you do. I think your political agenda and heavy bias actually blinds you to the words that others are saying. Additionally, you continue to throw around insults and angrily call us "anti-choice". You are the one being condescending and trying to silence reasonable and legitimate, though opposing, voices. We are women that do not think abortion is healthy - in mind, body or spirit - for women, the babies they carry, and the fathers/extended families of those babies and women. Our voice is gentle, rational, and loving - much like yours; yet different in perspective. Our viewpoint is not one of hate and, despite the venom continually thrown our way, we continue to respond peacefully and respectfully.

It is fascinating to me that only in the posts where an OP wants support for an abortion, does this fight break out. Only in this type of thread do dozens of people attack anyone with even the slightest differing viewpoint. The OPs in these threads are big girls. If they adamantly do not want to hear one shred of opinion or fact that sheds a different light on the subject, they could word their OP to say something like "Please do not respond with any different opinion whatsoever" ... or perhaps not post their question here at all. Everybody who has ever read anything here knows that digressions, debates and differing opinions are par for the course, even when it is an extremely delicate topic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I had meds, but they generally don't cross the placenta, and baby was awake.

I wonder what meds? Most in fact do cross the placenta, in differing strengths.

Did your doctors tell you that your baby would be unable to feel any pain?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:op here - I think this thread neatly dekonstrates why we should have a community norm that termination threads by women wbi have already mads the decision are NOT the place to debate abortion. We can debate it elsewhere on dcum, but not where the woman has made up her mind and is not seeking counsel on that point.

But the OP WAS torn. She had concerns. She had not been offered perinatal hospice. She was worried about the expense and the risks.

A mother who held her child in her arms as she died was called a horrible person. THAT was a mean, brutal thing to say.

She wasn't torn. She had made her decision. She was asking for information on the best way to implement her decision. And, after making this painful decision, she was hammered with a bunch of baseless crap about torturing babies. As the OP noted in a follow-up post, she was fully aware of what this abortion entails. She neither asked for nor was otherwise missing this information. And yet, here it came, twisted to make it as painful and harsh as possible.

You know what I didn't see from the anti-choicers? "Hey, OP, do you need any additional information on alternatives? I can provide it if you do." Nope, just guilt and shock and pain.

It is possible to be anti-choice and not be a douche. Really. I've seen it done. Try it sometime.

She wasn't hammered, it was certainly not baseless information, and no one said "torture" except for you. Do you think a late term abortion is torturous for the fetus? I don't know, perhaps you do. I think your political agenda and heavy bias actually blinds you to the words that others are saying. Additionally, you continue to throw around insults and angrily call us "anti-choice". You are the one being condescending and trying to silence reasonable and legitimate, though opposing, voices. We are women that do not think abortion is healthy - in mind, body or spirit - for women, the babies they carry, and the fathers/extended families of those babies and women. Our voice is gentle, rational, and loving - much like yours; yet different in perspective. Our viewpoint is not one of hate and, despite the venom continually thrown our way, we continue to respond peacefully and respectfully.

It is fascinating to me that only in the posts where an OP wants support for an abortion, does this fight break out. Only in this type of thread do dozens of people attack anyone with even the slightest differing viewpoint. The OPs in these threads are big girls. If they adamantly do not want to hear one shred of opinion or fact that sheds a different light on the subject, they could word their OP to say something like "Please do not respond with any different opinion whatsoever" ... or perhaps not post their question here at all. Everybody who has ever read anything here knows that digressions, debates and differing opinions are par for the course, even when it is an extremely delicate topic.

Gentle, rational and loving? With the "limbs torn off" and "burned by saline"? You'll note that I did not call out any of the other anti-choice posters who did post respectfully on that thread. I have no problem with opposing viewpoints, voiced respectfully. I have a problem with douchebags.