Jeb Bush's org behind the new MSDE MS math minutes increase (which will likely cut MS electives)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You people whine and complain for years on end about how mcps doesnt focus on academics and when they finally do something about it, youre crying in your laps because a republican name is attached to it.
Absolutely mental.

Wong Republicans want Christian Nationalist The Heritage Foundation and TPUSA Curriculim in public schools, which is 100% against the Constitution of the US.

Since when is one state run by Republicans have education that is in the top of this country??? Education in red states is in disarray, always has been.
The state of OKlahoma is a perfect example of how Republicans never make education better but when Dems were in charge all of a sudden, education gets better. Arizona with it's stupid voucher program has showed Republicans use vouchers to grift not for education.
Screw off, you anti-American cult of stupids member.

Mississippi. They figured out kids need phonics and mandated their teachers be taught his to teach reading well. Then they mandated all districts must use effective reading curriculum, and retain third graders who can’t read in order to give them intensive intervention. They were the second worst state in reading 12 years ago and now are doing better than average.

There is is research suggesting the "Mississippi Miracle" is a myth; here's a really deep dive into the research. On the "myth" side is the fact that the retained students apparently aren't included in the testing results.

https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2025/12/01/how-much-of-mississippis-education-miracle-is-an-artifact-of-selection-bias/

I do think it's commendable that part of the state's plan includes funding for teacher training, which never seems to factor into any of MCPS' grand plans.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For folks who don't know, MSDE passed a new policy and will be requiring 300 minutes of math a week in grades K-8 starting in 2027, which is way more than middle schools offer currently, and so will require big changes which will probably mean cuts to electives (possibly down to just one elective per year for middle schoolers), the end of block schedules, etc.

I was trying to figure out where this came from, and it looks like it's being pushed by ExcelinEd, the education group founded by Jeb Bush (he's chairman of the board and puts out press releases under the ExcelinEd name regularly, and other Republicans like Eric Cantor, Bruce Rauner, Susana Martinez, etc are on the board as well.) I don't see any notable advocacy on this from anywhere else. No other state has required this for middle schoolers (Alabama does for K-5) so and they are very excited that Maryland will be the first one. This is their fact sheet on it and if you search the web for mentions of this minimum math requirement, you'll see articles on a variety of websites but they all seem to be written by ExcelinEd staff and they all only ever link to this website when they assert that evidence supports this change.

I'm also skeptical that the data they're pushing on this is even real. They say "Students in countries who consistently perform well on international math assessments have an average of 60 minutes per day (300 minutes per week) for math instruction" which, even if true, feels like a "correlation does not equal causation" issue... but they only ever link to this website, which is just a a listing of how many hours per year of math instruction 4th and 8th graders get around the world, and shows only two countries with middle schoolers averaging more than 180 hours a year/5 hours a week of math (more elementary schoolers are, so maybe this is true at the ES level.) In fact, the one article I found where they gave a little more detail ("But in Singapore, Japan, and Finland, students have a better understanding of foundational mathematical concepts as they enter young adulthood. All three of these high-performing countries have one thing in common: They mandate that schools dedicate at least an hour every day to math instruction") mentions 3 countries that, according to the TIMSS data they link, have far fewer annual math hours than the US for 8th graders-- for Finland and Japan just 105 and 111 hours per year! Unless there are other sources they are relying on but not sharing, it feels sloppy bordering on misleading.

But even if it is indeed true that middle schoolers do better in math with more minutes per week (which is logical albeit maybe unproven), the question is still "At what cost?" It is hard to see how MCPS middle schools will add an extra 60-100 minutes of math a week without cutting back on electives, which may mean that middle schoolers will only have one elective period and would have to choose between foreign language and instrumental music, both of which are valuable in their own right (and other electives will probably shrink too if they're only an option for kids who want neither foreign language nor music.) Middle school immersion and magnets may be in trouble too, if participating kids would no longer be able to take any extra electives.

I am personally very frustrated by this. (And annoyed that it doesn't look to me like it got much or any debate when it passed, probably because it was buried in the same math policy that changed the algebra/HS math pathways and made a bunch of other math changes.) Does anyone know if there are any efforts to lobby MSDE to reverse this requirement for middle school? And does anyone know if MCPS has taken a position on this change, or if we could lobby them to oppose it?

I think linking this to Jeb Bush is a red herring. I don't particularly like the guy. But I *love* the idea of more math. Our kids are doing terribly in math. Look at international comparisons. Look at comparisons with MCPS a decade ago. I personally also like electives (I pushed all of my kids into band). But if there has to be a tradeoff, I'll take more math!!

Maybe we just need a longer school day-- add an hour to do math and daily PE and arts. Plus it helps parents with child care of ES students and helps create a structured day for MS students.

Let's start a movement! A longer schoolday for the arts!!

[Anonymous]

I’ve taught math. Many curricula publish lessons designed for 50-60 minute class periods. An hour of math per day, five days per week isn’t out of line.

Many districts and independent schools have math periods this long, and it has nothing to do with Republican lobbyists.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’ve taught math. Many curricula publish lessons designed for 50-60 minute class periods. An hour of math per day, five days per week isn’t out of line.

Many districts and independent schools have math periods this long, and it has nothing to do with Republican lobbyists.

Other states/schools don't require gym every day in middle school, so they have room for electives even in a 6-period day. But if MCPS goes to a 6-period middle school day to meet this mandate, it will be a huge blow to foreign language, music, art, and other electives. I would not be surprised if some middle schools will no longer be able to offer foreign language in middle school anymore (or anything besides Spanish 1) if this goes through due to lack of demand... most kids are not going to want to spend their one free period on foreign language (except at IB middle schools where they will be forced to and then won't be able to do arts.)

I support the 60 minute minimum for elementary school. But in middle school, the costs are just too high. More math minutes for kids who are struggling, absolutely-- keep the 7 period day and give the kids who need it an extra period of additional math support. But don't force every middle schooler to give up their schedule flexibility to insist they get more math, based on zero evidence that it is necessary or beneficial.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ve taught math. Many curricula publish lessons designed for 50-60 minute class periods. An hour of math per day, five days per week isn’t out of line.

Many districts and independent schools have math periods this long, and it has nothing to do with Republican lobbyists.

Other states/schools don't require gym every day in middle school, so they have room for electives even in a 6-period day. But if MCPS goes to a 6-period middle school day to meet this mandate, it will be a huge blow to foreign language, music, art, and other electives. I would not be surprised if some middle schools will no longer be able to offer foreign language in middle school anymore (or anything besides Spanish 1) if this goes through due to lack of demand... most kids are not going to want to spend their one free period on foreign language (except at IB middle schools where they will be forced to and then won't be able to do arts.)

I support the 60 minute minimum for elementary school. But in middle school, the costs are just too high. More math minutes for kids who are struggling, absolutely-- keep the 7 period day and give the kids who need it an extra period of additional math support. But don't force every middle schooler to give up their schedule flexibility to insist they get more math, based on zero evidence that it is necessary or beneficial.

I agree that the additional instruction time, if any, should only be provided to support kids who are below grade level or who otherwise need extra help. An additional 15 minutes of math instruction per day isn't going to benefit my 8th grader who is doing just fine in honors geometry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For folks who don't know, MSDE passed a new policy and will be requiring 300 minutes of math a week in grades K-8 starting in 2027, which is way more than middle schools offer currently, and so will require big changes which will probably mean cuts to electives (possibly down to just one elective per year for middle schoolers), the end of block schedules, etc.

I was trying to figure out where this came from, and it looks like it's being pushed by ExcelinEd, the education group founded by Jeb Bush (he's chairman of the board and puts out press releases under the ExcelinEd name regularly, and other Republicans like Eric Cantor, Bruce Rauner, Susana Martinez, etc are on the board as well.) I don't see any notable advocacy on this from anywhere else. No other state has required this for middle schoolers (Alabama does for K-5) so and they are very excited that Maryland will be the first one. This is their fact sheet on it and if you search the web for mentions of this minimum math requirement, you'll see articles on a variety of websites but they all seem to be written by ExcelinEd staff and they all only ever link to this website when they assert that evidence supports this change.

I'm also skeptical that the data they're pushing on this is even real. They say "Students in countries who consistently perform well on international math assessments have an average of 60 minutes per day (300 minutes per week) for math instruction" which, even if true, feels like a "correlation does not equal causation" issue... but they only ever link to this website, which is just a a listing of how many hours per year of math instruction 4th and 8th graders get around the world, and shows only two countries with middle schoolers averaging more than 180 hours a year/5 hours a week of math (more elementary schoolers are, so maybe this is true at the ES level.) In fact, the one article I found where they gave a little more detail ("But in Singapore, Japan, and Finland, students have a better understanding of foundational mathematical concepts as they enter young adulthood. All three of these high-performing countries have one thing in common: They mandate that schools dedicate at least an hour every day to math instruction") mentions 3 countries that, according to the TIMSS data they link, have far fewer annual math hours than the US for 8th graders-- for Finland and Japan just 105 and 111 hours per year! Unless there are other sources they are relying on but not sharing, it feels sloppy bordering on misleading.

But even if it is indeed true that middle schoolers do better in math with more minutes per week (which is logical albeit maybe unproven), the question is still "At what cost?" It is hard to see how MCPS middle schools will add an extra 60-100 minutes of math a week without cutting back on electives, which may mean that middle schoolers will only have one elective period and would have to choose between foreign language and instrumental music, both of which are valuable in their own right (and other electives will probably shrink too if they're only an option for kids who want neither foreign language nor music.) Middle school immersion and magnets may be in trouble too, if participating kids would no longer be able to take any extra electives.

I am personally very frustrated by this. (And annoyed that it doesn't look to me like it got much or any debate when it passed, probably because it was buried in the same math policy that changed the algebra/HS math pathways and made a bunch of other math changes.) Does anyone know if there are any efforts to lobby MSDE to reverse this requirement for middle school? And does anyone know if MCPS has taken a position on this change, or if we could lobby them to oppose it?

I think linking this to Jeb Bush is a red herring. I don't particularly like the guy. But I *love* the idea of more math. Our kids are doing terribly in math. Look at international comparisons. Look at comparisons with MCPS a decade ago. I personally also like electives (I pushed all of my kids into band). But if there has to be a tradeoff, I'll take more math!!

Maybe we just need a longer school day-- add an hour to do math and daily PE and arts. Plus it helps parents with child care of ES students and helps create a structured day for MS students.

Let's start a movement! A longer schoolday for the arts!!

You sound like an idiot. Kids don't need MORE math instruction, they need BETTER math instruction. Rote memorization is a skill that should absolutely be brought back. (So does teaching the concepts behind the thinking but memorization is a skill necessary to progress in math) Being in school for an extended period of time during the day is completely pointless. The last few periods of the day are already a struggle to get them to focus and concentrate. We should absolutely eliminate advisory to make more time in the day for additional math if the state goes through with it. It's a waste of time as it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For folks who don't know, MSDE passed a new policy and will be requiring 300 minutes of math a week in grades K-8 starting in 2027, which is way more than middle schools offer currently, and so will require big changes which will probably mean cuts to electives (possibly down to just one elective per year for middle schoolers), the end of block schedules, etc.

I was trying to figure out where this came from, and it looks like it's being pushed by ExcelinEd, the education group founded by Jeb Bush (he's chairman of the board and puts out press releases under the ExcelinEd name regularly, and other Republicans like Eric Cantor, Bruce Rauner, Susana Martinez, etc are on the board as well.) I don't see any notable advocacy on this from anywhere else. No other state has required this for middle schoolers (Alabama does for K-5) so and they are very excited that Maryland will be the first one. This is their fact sheet on it and if you search the web for mentions of this minimum math requirement, you'll see articles on a variety of websites but they all seem to be written by ExcelinEd staff and they all only ever link to this website when they assert that evidence supports this change.

I'm also skeptical that the data they're pushing on this is even real. They say "Students in countries who consistently perform well on international math assessments have an average of 60 minutes per day (300 minutes per week) for math instruction" which, even if true, feels like a "correlation does not equal causation" issue... but they only ever link to this website, which is just a a listing of how many hours per year of math instruction 4th and 8th graders get around the world, and shows only two countries with middle schoolers averaging more than 180 hours a year/5 hours a week of math (more elementary schoolers are, so maybe this is true at the ES level.) In fact, the one article I found where they gave a little more detail ("But in Singapore, Japan, and Finland, students have a better understanding of foundational mathematical concepts as they enter young adulthood. All three of these high-performing countries have one thing in common: They mandate that schools dedicate at least an hour every day to math instruction") mentions 3 countries that, according to the TIMSS data they link, have far fewer annual math hours than the US for 8th graders-- for Finland and Japan just 105 and 111 hours per year! Unless there are other sources they are relying on but not sharing, it feels sloppy bordering on misleading.

But even if it is indeed true that middle schoolers do better in math with more minutes per week (which is logical albeit maybe unproven), the question is still "At what cost?" It is hard to see how MCPS middle schools will add an extra 60-100 minutes of math a week without cutting back on electives, which may mean that middle schoolers will only have one elective period and would have to choose between foreign language and instrumental music, both of which are valuable in their own right (and other electives will probably shrink too if they're only an option for kids who want neither foreign language nor music.) Middle school immersion and magnets may be in trouble too, if participating kids would no longer be able to take any extra electives.

I am personally very frustrated by this. (And annoyed that it doesn't look to me like it got much or any debate when it passed, probably because it was buried in the same math policy that changed the algebra/HS math pathways and made a bunch of other math changes.) Does anyone know if there are any efforts to lobby MSDE to reverse this requirement for middle school? And does anyone know if MCPS has taken a position on this change, or if we could lobby them to oppose it?

I think linking this to Jeb Bush is a red herring. I don't particularly like the guy. But I *love* the idea of more math. Our kids are doing terribly in math. Look at international comparisons. Look at comparisons with MCPS a decade ago. I personally also like electives (I pushed all of my kids into band). But if there has to be a tradeoff, I'll take more math!!

Maybe we just need a longer school day-- add an hour to do math and daily PE and arts. Plus it helps parents with child care of ES students and helps create a structured day for MS students.

Let's start a movement! A longer schoolday for the arts!!

You sound like an idiot. Kids don't need MORE math instruction, they need BETTER math instruction. Rote memorization is a skill that should absolutely be brought back. (So does teaching the concepts behind the thinking but memorization is a skill necessary to progress in math) Being in school for an extended period of time during the day is completely pointless. The last few periods of the day are already a struggle to get them to focus and concentrate. We should absolutely eliminate advisory to make more time in the day for additional math if the state goes through with it. It's a waste of time as it is.

You can't just eliminate advisory, you need to make math classes 60 minutes and it would be almost impossible logistically to schedule that without making all periods 60 minutes, i.e. a 6 period day.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You people whine and complain for years on end about how mcps doesnt focus on academics and when they finally do something about it, youre crying in your laps because a republican name is attached to it.
Absolutely mental.

Wong Republicans want Christian Nationalist The Heritage Foundation and TPUSA Curriculim in public schools, which is 100% against the Constitution of the US.

Since when is one state run by Republicans have education that is in the top of this country??? Education in red states is in disarray, always has been.
The state of OKlahoma is a perfect example of how Republicans never make education better but when Dems were in charge all of a sudden, education gets better. Arizona with it's stupid voucher program has showed Republicans use vouchers to grift not for education.
Screw off, you anti-American cult of stupids member.

Mississippi. They figured out kids need phonics and mandated their teachers be taught his to teach reading well. Then they mandated all districts must use effective reading curriculum, and retain third graders who can’t read in order to give them intensive intervention. They were the second worst state in reading 12 years ago and now are doing better than average.

There is is research suggesting the "Mississippi Miracle" is a myth; here's a really deep dive into the research. On the "myth" side is the fact that the retained students apparently aren't included in the testing results.

https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2025/12/01/how-much-of-mississippis-education-miracle-is-an-artifact-of-selection-bias/

I do think it's commendable that part of the state's plan includes funding for teacher training, which never seems to factor into any of MCPS' grand plans.

From the article re: retention -

"In reality, this could help explain test scores jumps for a short period of time, but it doesn’t make much sense for longer-term gains. Eventually, students who are retained in early grades will move up to the next grade — they are not held back forever. Because Mississippi has seen sustained improvements, retention gaming appears to be an unlikely explanation. . . .

Andrew Ho, a testing expert at Harvard University and previously a member of the board that oversees NAEP, said his instinct is to question big test score gains. But in the case of Mississippi, he said, “I don’t see any smoking guns or red flags that make me say that they’re gaming NAEP.”

[Anonymous]

If anyone wants to testify to MSDE to urge them to roll back the experimental, unproven 60-minutes math mandate for middle school, or to give schools the flexibility to implement it in a way that allows middle school students to continue to take two electives rather than undermining foreign language, music, and other arts in middle school, signup is now open to testify at next Tuesday's state Board of Ed meeting (in-person or virtually): https://www.marylandpublicschools.org/stateboard/pages/publiccomment.aspx

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’ve taught math. Many curricula publish lessons designed for 50-60 minute class periods. An hour of math per day, five days per week isn’t out of line.

Many districts and independent schools have math periods this long, and it has nothing to do with Republican lobbyists.

Name any independent school in the DMV with daily 60 min math classes in grades 6-8. You’ll find at best they are 4 days a week for 50 minutes or every other day for 55.

[Anonymous]

So many pages on this thread…what year does this mandate begin? Lemme guess….same year as Taylor’s Regional Program BS?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So many pages on this thread…what year does this mandate begin? Lemme guess….same year as Taylor’s Regional Program BS?

Fall 2027 for grades K-8

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So many pages on this thread…what year does this mandate begin? Lemme guess….same year as Taylor’s Regional Program BS?

It is literally in the first sentence of the first post. 2027-2028.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If anyone wants to testify to MSDE to urge them to roll back the experimental, unproven 60-minutes math mandate for middle school, or to give schools the flexibility to implement it in a way that allows middle school students to continue to take two electives rather than undermining foreign language, music, and other arts in middle school, signup is now open to testify at next Tuesday's state Board of Ed meeting (in-person or virtually): https://www.marylandpublicschools.org/stateboard/pages/publiccomment.aspx

If you don't want to actually testify but have opinions about this, you can submit written comment to stateboard.msde @ maryland.gov (see more at the link.) I think they may want you to fill out the form above as well, I can't tell. Registration closes tomorrow for testimony to be shared for Tuesday's meeting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ve taught math. Many curricula publish lessons designed for 50-60 minute class periods. An hour of math per day, five days per week isn’t out of line.

Many districts and independent schools have math periods this long, and it has nothing to do with Republican lobbyists.

Other states/schools don't require gym every day in middle school, so they have room for electives even in a 6-period day. But if MCPS goes to a 6-period middle school day to meet this mandate, it will be a huge blow to foreign language, music, art, and other electives. I would not be surprised if some middle schools will no longer be able to offer foreign language in middle school anymore (or anything besides Spanish 1) if this goes through due to lack of demand... most kids are not going to want to spend their one free period on foreign language (except at IB middle schools where they will be forced to and then won't be able to do arts.)

I support the 60 minute minimum for elementary school. But in middle school, the costs are just too high. More math minutes for kids who are struggling, absolutely-- keep the 7 period day and give the kids who need it an extra period of additional math support. But don't force every middle schooler to give up their schedule flexibility to insist they get more math, based on zero evidence that it is necessary or beneficial.

What states? Virginia definitely treats it equal with other classes. MCPS doesn’t meet state PE minimum in ES